Pretend you can play infinite rainbow lands, what creature curve would you play? The Merfolk Branchwalker + Jadelight Ranger + bombs core worked well before. I'm actually having the opposite problem you are -- Sultai has a ton of excellent spells and if you don't mind being heavier on green, can shore up the early game with those two + Brontodon, but I don't know what all of this is building up to. I'm a big buyer of Doom Whisperer, but if the next best card in the 4+ cc category is Nightveil Predator, I don't think I'm in.
Maybe it's planeswalkers? I've been dying to use Karn, Tezzeret and Treasure Map together, and it wouldn't be hard to slot in something like Chromatic Lantern to get Karn enough artifacts to play with.
Whatever it is, I think it needs to be something:
(a) threatening
(b) sidesteps removal or trades positively with it
Whisperer lets you convert life into filtering at a nice rate so you're not completely down on cards, and beats the hell out of the enemy if it isn't removed immediately, so I like that. The planeswalkers get some value in the face of removal. Once we're in the realm of Thief of Sanity (dangerous if unchecked, but has to connect before it does anything) or the Predator (just not threatening enough for its mana cost; nice set of keywords, good rate overall, but the rate is tied up in things that don't generate value or put a real clock on the enemy), I'm not liking it so much...
Wrong colors obviously but Rekindling Phoenix and Nicol Bolas, the Ravager look like great 4cc creatures to play right now. Is there anything comparable in Sultai?
You could use the 4 mana slot for your spot removal. I guess if you're really desperate, Nullhide Ferox is an option.
I'm loving the new cards.
Here's a Sultai control build I arrived at, based on some things others have posted.
Not tested, but I think it should be a good starting point :
I'm loving the new cards.
Here's a Sultai control build I arrived at, based on some things others have posted.
Not tested, but I think it should be a good starting point :
GreenTea83's Deck
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Planeswalkers (4):
3x Vraska, Relic Seeker
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
Thief of Sanity is anything but. I think this card is better than Glint-Sleeve Siphoner even accounting for the increased mana cost. I was down on it earlier in the thread, but a lot of its value comes from (a) the t2 Thought Erasure -> t3 Thief earlygame sequence, and (b) whether or not Shock effects are widespread, both of which are hard to see on paper. I played with it and I think it's great now. Doom Whisperer is great.
I've liked a couple copies of Lazav, the Multifarious. It's about like Omenspeaker in the early game, which is acceptable if unspectacular, but Lazav is an absolute monster topdeck late in the game, turning into Doom Whisperer to get some card filtering early and then switching gears to drawing cards as a clone of Thief of Sanity. And if you're straight UB and can manage to play Nightveil Predator and get one into your graveyard, then Lazav can do the old Scarab God "hold up Gearhulk" trick to protect himself from removal. I don't think Lazav is a 4-of, but as a 2-of he seems quite nice. You can round out the 2-spot on the curve with removal and Thought Erasure and Arguel's Blood Fast so no issues there.
The only hole that's left is at 4 mana. Nightveil Predator is still medium and I'd like something a bit better (although the synergy with Lazav is pretty nice). I really wish the mana would support Thought Erasure on 2 and Rekindling Phoenix on four.
Ok- fixed.
I thought a lot about how to beat Nullhide Ferox in this build. I expect it to be everywhere in the meta.
The best tools against it we have are counters and sac effects. This deck has 10 ways to get it maindeck.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s). Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
Yea- it's an interesting card, but I think you would get more advantage by not turning on their MB creature removal spells G1. It's also 6 mana, which is a lot. I could totally be wrong though.
Ok- fixed.
I thought a lot about how to beat Nullhide Ferox in this build. I expect it to be everywhere in the meta.
Umm, but not Vine Mare? it's already a dominant force in the meta, and counters take care of it fine. I don't think fine tuning a deck towards sacrifice is a solid way to build, just because of 1 card in the format.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s).
We had a lengthy discussion on this card a while ago, and ultimately decided it wasn't worth it. The applications are too narrow and with Fatal Push rotating out, your best bet will be Dead Weight.
Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
VS Stompy you'll only be able to do that on the draw... I guess it could be frequent enough with current red taking a back step, but idk if it justifies brewing for it maindeck.
Yea- it's an interesting card, but I think you would get more advantage by not turning on their MB creature removal spells G1. It's also 6 mana, which is a lot. I could totally be wrong though.
If you're playing control 6 mana is not a tall ordeal at all. It has everything a control card would like.
We have two Sultai Threads, one here and another in Deck Creation. Any thoughts about me merging them? Or one Control and another Midrange? I can move this entire thread into Deck Creation also, but I don't want two threads with overlapping scope.
Ok- fixed.
I thought a lot about how to beat Nullhide Ferox in this build. I expect it to be everywhere in the meta.
Umm, but not Vine Mare? it's already a dominant force in the meta, and counters take care of it fine. I don't think fine tuning a deck towards sacrifice is a solid way to build, just because of 1 card in the format.
Yea but Ferox can be put onto the battlefield from an unlucky Thought Erasure. We need someway to get rid of it if it should somehow land.
I only added two instant speed sacrifice cards to deal with it MD. The rest are just counters as you have already said are good against it.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s).
We had a lengthy discussion on this card a while ago, and ultimately decided it wasn't worth it. The applications are too narrow and with Fatal Push rotating out, your best bet will be Dead Weight.
Fair enough- I did not add Fungal Infection to my SB though, and it was just an idea. Dead weight looks fine though too.
Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
VS Stompy you'll only be able to do that on the draw... I guess it could be frequent enough with current red taking a back step, but idk if it justifies brewing for it maindeck.
yea its just a spicy SB card to help against combo matchups or hate-targets...
Yea- it's an interesting card, but I think you would get more advantage by not turning on their MB creature removal spells G1. It's also 6 mana, which is a lot. I could totally be wrong though.
If you're playing control 6 mana is not a tall ordeal at all. It has everything a control card would like.
I totally understand. It is a very strong card. I could definitely see it being built around for the main deck.
For me in this build though I wanted to turn off creature removals and force opp to SB radically G2/3. I could see it working as a 4x in the SB too although it does compete for space with Deathgorge Scavenger.
What is your favored build for Sultai Control in this format?
Any of Shock, Lightning Strike, Cast Down, Seal Away, or other instant speed removal, will absolutely punish that strategy (as they would any other creature enchantment strategy) to the point where you would not want to play that deck in standard constructed.
Besides 5 mana return to battlefield effects have not been competitive in any recent standard formats, and are probably too slow and un-impactful to matter here as well.
This is what I'm currently testing on Arena. So far, I like it, especially Underealm Lich with Notion Rain. However, it still feels a bit clunky. Not sure on Muldrotha, but it turns GY into a second hand, which is why it's there. Thinking about Enhanced Surveillance as a way to help prevent us from decking ourselves either through Lich or through repeat surveil triggers. Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
What is your favored build for Sultai Control in this format?
Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be trying a heavy control deck in this rotation. In the past, we had payoffs like The Scarab God or Torrential Gearhulk to incentivize putting cards into the graveyard, but right now the only "reanimate" card that would feel appropriate in a heavy spell deck would be Mission Briefing, and I don't like it at all. Surveil feeds Undergrowth cards, but it doesn't happen the other way around. I feel for these colors (or Golgari), Undergrowth should be your main payoff, with Surveil as support.
That being said, I'll be trying a heavily creature-focused build first draft:
This is what I'm currently testing on Arena. So far, I like it, especially Underealm Lich with Notion Rain. However, it still feels a bit clunky. Not sure on Muldrotha, but it turns GY into a second hand, which is why it's there. Thinking about Enhanced Surveillance as a way to help prevent us from decking ourselves either through Lich or through repeat surveil triggers. Thoughts?
I'm sorry, and I'll probably get a lot of hate for it but I've never liked Muldrotha. For a 6 CMC, it does nothing on ETB except maybe fetch you a land, and has no self protection. Namely any 6 CMC you can think of can do something better (Vraska, Relic Seeker, Carnage Tyrant). Question about your list tho, how are you feeding your Lazavs and Muldrothas without a dedicated early game mill engine?
What is your favored build for Sultai Control in this format?
Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be trying a heavy control deck in this rotation. In the past, we had payoffs like The Scarab God or Torrential Gearhulk to incentivize putting cards into the graveyard, but right now the only "reanimate" card that would feel appropriate in a heavy spell deck would be Mission Briefing, and I don't like it at all. Surveil feeds Undergrowth cards, but it doesn't happen the other way around. I feel for these colors (or Golgari), Undergrowth should be your main payoff, with Surveil as support.
That being said, I'll be trying a heavily creature-focused build first draft:
This is what I'm currently testing on Arena. So far, I like it, especially Underealm Lich with Notion Rain. However, it still feels a bit clunky. Not sure on Muldrotha, but it turns GY into a second hand, which is why it's there. Thinking about Enhanced Surveillance as a way to help prevent us from decking ourselves either through Lich or through repeat surveil triggers. Thoughts?
I'm sorry, and I'll probably get a lot of hate for it but I've never liked Muldrotha. For a 6 CMC, it does nothing on ETB except maybe fetch you a land, and has no self protection. Namely any 6 CMC you can think of can do something better (Vraska, Relic Seeker, Carnage Tyrant). Question about your list tho, how are you feeding your Lazavs and Muldrothas without a dedicated early game mill engine?
The goal isn't to fuel them early, but to have options late game off of Surveil and Lich. Regarding Muldrotha, I see what you're saying. It's just having access to everything in your graveyard once again is nice. As is, still not sure on it being in the deck
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
The goal isn't to fuel them early, but to have options late game off of Surveil and Lich. Regarding Muldrotha, I see what you're saying. It's just having access to everything in your graveyard once again is nice. As is, still not sure on it being in the deck
Even in SCG's VS Series Brad Nelson was talking about siding it out most of the time so he was questioning its relevance as a maindeck choice
I'm not sure on a sideboard yet since the meta needs to flesh out first, but 2 more Ritual of soot will likely be in there. I also like moment of craving right now and some number of negates.
You could use the 4 mana slot for your spot removal. I guess if you're really desperate, Nullhide Ferox is an option.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Here's a Sultai control build I arrived at, based on some things others have posted.
Not tested, but I think it should be a good starting point :
3x Vraska, Relic Seeker
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
Instants (17):
4x Assassin's Trophy
4x Sinister Sabotage
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Pull From Tomorrow
1x Mission Briefing
1x Commit // Memory
1x Syncopate
Sorceries (11):
4x Thought Erasure
3x Ritual of Soot
2x Notion Rain
2x Discovery // Dispersal
2x Search for Azcanta
Lands (26):
4x Watery Grave
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Woodland Cemetery
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Evolving Wilds
4x Deathgorge Scavenger
4x Negate
4x Moment of Craving
2x Duress
1x Ritual of Soot
3x Mnemonic Betrayal
4x Dimir Spybug
3x Murmuring Mystic
2x Glyph Keeper
WIth Vraska as the wincon and extra removal, I think this deck could be amazing.
It seems to have all the tools.
Hmmm, some of your cards are rotating out tho, so may want to replace those slots. Also, no love for Dream Eater?
Check the rotation schedule - a bunch of those cards are out of Standard when GRN rolls inEDIT:
Didn't recognize the post w/o deck tags in the previous quote. Disregard.
Oh well guess I get to brew a lil more
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1340210#paper
Thief of Sanity is anything but. I think this card is better than Glint-Sleeve Siphoner even accounting for the increased mana cost. I was down on it earlier in the thread, but a lot of its value comes from (a) the t2 Thought Erasure -> t3 Thief earlygame sequence, and (b) whether or not Shock effects are widespread, both of which are hard to see on paper. I played with it and I think it's great now.
Doom Whisperer is great.
I've liked a couple copies of Lazav, the Multifarious. It's about like Omenspeaker in the early game, which is acceptable if unspectacular, but Lazav is an absolute monster topdeck late in the game, turning into Doom Whisperer to get some card filtering early and then switching gears to drawing cards as a clone of Thief of Sanity. And if you're straight UB and can manage to play Nightveil Predator and get one into your graveyard, then Lazav can do the old Scarab God "hold up Gearhulk" trick to protect himself from removal. I don't think Lazav is a 4-of, but as a 2-of he seems quite nice. You can round out the 2-spot on the curve with removal and Thought Erasure and Arguel's Blood Fast so no issues there.
The only hole that's left is at 4 mana. Nightveil Predator is still medium and I'd like something a bit better (although the synergy with Lazav is pretty nice). I really wish the mana would support Thought Erasure on 2 and Rekindling Phoenix on four.
I thought a lot about how to beat Nullhide Ferox in this build. I expect it to be everywhere in the meta.
The best tools against it we have are counters and sac effects. This deck has 10 ways to get it maindeck.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s).
Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
4x Vraska, Relic Seeker
Instants (17):
4x Sinister Sabotage
3x Vraska's Contempt
3x Assassin's Trophy
2x Vona's Hunger
2x Syncopate
1x Essence Scatter
1x Cast Down
1x Mission Briefing
Sorceries (11):
4x Thought Erasure
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Secrets of the Golden City
2x Notion Rain
1x Gaea's Blessing
2x Search for Azcanta
Lands (26):
4x Watery Grave
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Evolving Wilds
4x Deathgorge Scavenger
4x Negate
1x Unmoored Ego
2x Moment of Craving
2x Ritual of Soot
1x Vona's Hunger
1x Assassin's Trophy
4x Dimir Spybug
4x Murmuring Mystic
1x Mnemonic Betrayal
Yea- it's an interesting card, but I think you would get more advantage by not turning on their MB creature removal spells G1. It's also 6 mana, which is a lot. I could totally be wrong though.
Umm, but not Vine Mare? it's already a dominant force in the meta, and counters take care of it fine. I don't think fine tuning a deck towards sacrifice is a solid way to build, just because of 1 card in the format.
We had a lengthy discussion on this card a while ago, and ultimately decided it wasn't worth it. The applications are too narrow and with Fatal Push rotating out, your best bet will be Dead Weight.
VS Stompy you'll only be able to do that on the draw... I guess it could be frequent enough with current red taking a back step, but idk if it justifies brewing for it maindeck.
4x Vraska, Relic Seeker
Instants (17):
4x Sinister Sabotage
3x Vraska's Contempt
3x Assassin's Trophy
2x Vona's Hunger
2x Syncopate
1x Essence Scatter
1x Cast Down
1x Mission Briefing
Sorceries (11):
4x Thought Erasure
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Secrets of the Golden City
2x Notion Rain
1x Gaea's Blessing
2x Search for Azcanta
Lands (26):
4x Watery Grave
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Evolving Wilds
4x Deathgorge Scavenger
4x Negate
1x Unmoored Ego
2x Moment of Craving
2x Ritual of Soot
1x Vona's Hunger
1x Assassin's Trophy
4x Dimir Spybug
4x Murmuring Mystic
1x Mnemonic Betrayal
If you're playing control 6 mana is not a tall ordeal at all. It has everything a control card would like.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Wouldn't mind merging but it's up to you- just want to talk about this deck and what it might look like!
Yea but Ferox can be put onto the battlefield from an unlucky Thought Erasure. We need someway to get rid of it if it should somehow land.
I only added two instant speed sacrifice cards to deal with it MD. The rest are just counters as you have already said are good against it.
Fair enough- I did not add Fungal Infection to my SB though, and it was just an idea. Dead weight looks fine though too.
yea its just a spicy SB card to help against combo matchups or hate-targets...
I totally understand. It is a very strong card. I could definitely see it being built around for the main deck.
For me in this build though I wanted to turn off creature removals and force opp to SB radically G2/3. I could see it working as a 4x in the SB too although it does compete for space with Deathgorge Scavenger.
What is your favored build for Sultai Control in this format?
Any of Shock, Lightning Strike, Cast Down, Seal Away, or other instant speed removal, will absolutely punish that strategy (as they would any other creature enchantment strategy) to the point where you would not want to play that deck in standard constructed.
Besides 5 mana return to battlefield effects have not been competitive in any recent standard formats, and are probably too slow and un-impactful to matter here as well.
3 Llanowar Elves
2 Lazav, the Multifarious
3 Thief of Sanity
4 Ravenous Chupacabra
4 Doom Whisperer
4 Underrealm Lich
2 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Thought Erasure
4 Notion Rain
Lands (24)
4 Forest
2 Island
4 Overgrown Tomb
10 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
This is what I'm currently testing on Arena. So far, I like it, especially Underealm Lich with Notion Rain. However, it still feels a bit clunky. Not sure on Muldrotha, but it turns GY into a second hand, which is why it's there. Thinking about Enhanced Surveillance as a way to help prevent us from decking ourselves either through Lich or through repeat surveil triggers. Thoughts?
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be trying a heavy control deck in this rotation. In the past, we had payoffs like The Scarab God or Torrential Gearhulk to incentivize putting cards into the graveyard, but right now the only "reanimate" card that would feel appropriate in a heavy spell deck would be Mission Briefing, and I don't like it at all. Surveil feeds Undergrowth cards, but it doesn't happen the other way around. I feel for these colors (or Golgari), Undergrowth should be your main payoff, with Surveil as support.
That being said, I'll be trying a heavily creature-focused build first draft:
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Glowspore Shaman
2 Lazav The Multifarious
2 Charnel troll
2 Plaguecrafter
3 Thief of Sanity
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Hostage Taker
2 Doom Whisperer
2 Dream Eater
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Spells
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Thought Erasure
3 Vraska's Contempt
Lands
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
I'm sorry, and I'll probably get a lot of hate for it but I've never liked Muldrotha. For a 6 CMC, it does nothing on ETB except maybe fetch you a land, and has no self protection. Namely any 6 CMC you can think of can do something better (Vraska, Relic Seeker, Carnage Tyrant). Question about your list tho, how are you feeding your Lazavs and Muldrothas without a dedicated early game mill engine?
The goal isn't to fuel them early, but to have options late game off of Surveil and Lich. Regarding Muldrotha, I see what you're saying. It's just having access to everything in your graveyard once again is nice. As is, still not sure on it being in the deck
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Even in SCG's VS Series Brad Nelson was talking about siding it out most of the time so he was questioning its relevance as a maindeck choice
2x doom whisperer
1x dream eater
2x hostage taker
Instant/sorcery:
4x cast down
4x assassin's trophy
4x thought erasure
4x sinister sabotage
4x vraska's contempt
2x Ritual of soot
3x chemister's insight
2x vraska, relic seeker
Enchantment: 3
2x search for azcanta
1x arguel's blood fast
Lands: 25
4x overgrown tomb
4x watery grave
4x drowned catacomb
4x hinterland harbor
4x woodland cemetery
2x island
1x swamp
1x forest
1x field of ruin
I'm not sure on a sideboard yet since the meta needs to flesh out first, but 2 more Ritual of soot will likely be in there. I also like moment of craving right now and some number of negates.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.