She doesn't fit in the deck as currently constructed. I would almost always rather play a demon or a connections + activation in the 4 spot. If she was cheaper to cast or had 4 loyalty to start she would be much better.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
She doesn't fit in the deck as currently constructed. I would almost always rather play a demon or a connections + activation in the 4 spot. If she was cheaper to cast or had 4 loyalty to start she would be much better.
I already am running 4 of Demon and 4 of Connections. Liliana is on top of those.
I certainly like the idea (have one in my sideboard but haven't had a chance to play with her yet). Mainly as most of losses, if not all to mono blue have resolved around a Thassa. However, i think once Born of the gods is legal ill just be running Gild in the SB instead. If she survived her -3 however i think she'd be a powerhouse
I certainly like the idea (have one in my sideboard but haven't had a chance to play with her yet). Mainly as most of losses, if not all to mono blue have resolved around a Thassa. However, i think once Born of the gods is legal ill just be running Gild in the SB instead. If she survived her -3 however i think she'd be a powerhouse
That's the big problem with her. And IMO her fatal flaw. She is only good if you already have a good board.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
It is, but I've actually just used her as a removal spell on a unfavorable board. Because that's exactly what I want in that situation.
Agreed. It's not the most-fun thing to do with a PW, but it's still a one-for-one.
Comparing her to Desecration Demon: the opponent can tap down the demon and attack through for the win, while Lili can destroy a creature and/or eat up their attacks. The demon can attack; she can provide card advantage (especially useful with rats), control the board, and/or pump an attacker.
The only situation where I'm sure I'd rather have demon is an empty or creature-light board where Demon can quickly secure the win, but even then, Lili can churn out card advantage and help control the board while the next threat arrives.
@Unfortunately, based on Turtenwald's standard list, what did you take out to fit the Lili, if not Demons?
Hmm. Just doesn't seem like a net positive to me. Okay, Liliana helps you hit land-drops, but only if you've already hit four. Gray Merchant is the only five-cost spell in the deck, and nothing costs six or more. You can afford to miss that fifth land drop for a turn or two, but missing the second or third land drop can be Game Over for this deck.
Hmm. Just doesn't seem like a net positive to me. Okay, Liliana helps you hit land-drops, but only if you've already hit four. Gray Merchant is the only five-cost spell in the deck, and nothing costs six or more. You can afford to miss that fifth land drop for a turn or two, but missing the second or third land drop can be Game Over for this deck.
Its a statistics thing. If I remember correctly there's a thread talking about likelyhood to hit 2-3-4-5 lands with N amount of lands in your deck. The correct number to hit 5 on turn 5 is 25. We play 26 because extra lands mean more mutavault activations and flooding out isn't bad with a Pack Rat in play. Liliana lets us hit extra lands for Mutavault activations and draw additional cards for Pack Rat making the 26th land unneccessary.
I'm not suggesting just pulling a single swamp and replacing it with a Liliana. You need two for the math to work out.
Hmm. Just doesn't seem like a net positive to me. Okay, Liliana helps you hit land-drops, but only if you've already hit four. Gray Merchant is the only five-cost spell in the deck, and nothing costs six or more. You can afford to miss that fifth land drop for a turn or two, but missing the second or third land drop can be Game Over for this deck.
You're never going to get close to a guaranteed curve into five straight lands. 26 gives you a base chance of about 65% of that happening.
25 lands does give us about an 67% chance of hitting four land on turn four, assuming we've seen 10 cards. One more card exposed -- draw first or Scry once -- makes it almost 77%. Not the most guaranteed odds, but workable?
If we go with less than 22 black sources, we are hurting our chances of playing Nightveil Specter on the curve. I can anticipate the negative response, but what if we cut a Mutavault instead of a Swamp? I'm usually not thrilled to get 2 Vaults on the board, unless they both activate themselves to pump rats but don't swing.
I'm starting to lean towards cutting demons instead.
If you dont have a pack rat out, liliana does next to nothing.
4 mana kill spell isnt where you want to be (can be if you have to).
Thinning 1-2 swamps wont hedge much on a 26 land deck.
Shuffle can be useful if were scrying, but typically only about 4 temples ran do that correct?
The deck (typically) isnt fast enough that a +4/+4 is going to end the game when she drops.
You're never going to get close to a guaranteed curve into five straight lands. 26 gives you a base chance of about 65% of that happening.
25 lands does give us about an 67% chance of hitting four land on turn four, assuming we've seen 10 cards. One more card exposed -- draw first or Scry once -- makes it almost 77%. Not the most guaranteed odds, but workable?
If we go with less than 22 black sources, we are hurting our chances of playing Nightveil Specter on the curve. I can anticipate the negative response, but what if we cut a Mutavault instead of a Swamp? I'm usually not thrilled to get 2 Vaults on the board, unless they both activate themselves to pump rats but don't swing.
I'm starting to lean towards cutting demons instead.
In my list I run 25 lands and cut a Mutavault. I'm not a big fan of seeing bunches of Mutavaults either.
Do not under any circumstances cut any of our creatures, especially Demon. We play Demon because it is so difficult for a lot of decks to beat. I love playing Liliana in this deck, but this is more like discussing whether or not to play Erebos in the main.
25 lands does give us about an 67% chance of hitting four land on turn four, assuming we've seen 10 cards. One more card exposed -- draw first or Scry once -- makes it almost 77%. Not the most guaranteed odds, but workable?
Right, but hitting the fifth land on time with mono-black is far less important than hitting the first four.
Right, but hitting the fifth land on time with mono-black is far less important than hitting the first four.
I think if your running the pack rat strategy, you want the 26th land.
From my experience, the deck functions perfectly on 5 mana. The problem: with one less land your going to occasionally have hands where you cannot afford to discard anything. which turns off pack rat strategy.
I don't think cutting a downfall is a good idea, especially with RG looking to become a top teir deck. Killing RG walkers is really important, and having plenty of ways to kill Elspeth in case of counters is also necessary.
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Its unfortunate her ultimate doesn't do much for our deck. I've been liking a 2-of a lot though.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I already am running 4 of Demon and 4 of Connections. Liliana is on top of those.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
That's the big problem with her. And IMO her fatal flaw. She is only good if you already have a good board.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
It is, but I've actually just used her as a removal spell on a unfavorable board. Because that's exactly what I want in that situation.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
Agreed. It's not the most-fun thing to do with a PW, but it's still a one-for-one.
Comparing her to Desecration Demon: the opponent can tap down the demon and attack through for the win, while Lili can destroy a creature and/or eat up their attacks. The demon can attack; she can provide card advantage (especially useful with rats), control the board, and/or pump an attacker.
The only situation where I'm sure I'd rather have demon is an empty or creature-light board where Demon can quickly secure the win, but even then, Lili can churn out card advantage and help control the board while the next threat arrives.
@Unfortunately, based on Turtenwald's standard list, what did you take out to fit the Lili, if not Demons?
I actually play a list that splashes red, but based on Turtenwald's list i'd be -1 Swamp, -1 Devour Flesh.
Liliana's +1 lets you cut one land safely.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
Hmm. Just doesn't seem like a net positive to me. Okay, Liliana helps you hit land-drops, but only if you've already hit four. Gray Merchant is the only five-cost spell in the deck, and nothing costs six or more. You can afford to miss that fifth land drop for a turn or two, but missing the second or third land drop can be Game Over for this deck.
Its a statistics thing. If I remember correctly there's a thread talking about likelyhood to hit 2-3-4-5 lands with N amount of lands in your deck. The correct number to hit 5 on turn 5 is 25. We play 26 because extra lands mean more mutavault activations and flooding out isn't bad with a Pack Rat in play. Liliana lets us hit extra lands for Mutavault activations and draw additional cards for Pack Rat making the 26th land unneccessary.
I'm not suggesting just pulling a single swamp and replacing it with a Liliana. You need two for the math to work out.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
You're never going to get close to a guaranteed curve into five straight lands. 26 gives you a base chance of about 65% of that happening.
25 lands does give us about an 67% chance of hitting four land on turn four, assuming we've seen 10 cards. One more card exposed -- draw first or Scry once -- makes it almost 77%. Not the most guaranteed odds, but workable?
If we go with less than 22 black sources, we are hurting our chances of playing Nightveil Specter on the curve. I can anticipate the negative response, but what if we cut a Mutavault instead of a Swamp? I'm usually not thrilled to get 2 Vaults on the board, unless they both activate themselves to pump rats but don't swing.
I'm starting to lean towards cutting demons instead.
4 mana kill spell isnt where you want to be (can be if you have to).
Thinning 1-2 swamps wont hedge much on a 26 land deck.
Shuffle can be useful if were scrying, but typically only about 4 temples ran do that correct?
The deck (typically) isnt fast enough that a +4/+4 is going to end the game when she drops.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
In my list I run 25 lands and cut a Mutavault. I'm not a big fan of seeing bunches of Mutavaults either.
Do not under any circumstances cut any of our creatures, especially Demon. We play Demon because it is so difficult for a lot of decks to beat. I love playing Liliana in this deck, but this is more like discussing whether or not to play Erebos in the main.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
Right, but hitting the fifth land on time with mono-black is far less important than hitting the first four.
I think if your running the pack rat strategy, you want the 26th land.
From my experience, the deck functions perfectly on 5 mana. The problem: with one less land your going to occasionally have hands where you cannot afford to discard anything. which turns off pack rat strategy.
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