I really like the looks of the white black deck but I don't have the cards yet to test it. Has anyone had experience with it? What mus does it do worse in and what ones does it do better in? How many brimaz should be played or is bb better hands down.
The BW deck is arguably better against G/R monsters because it runs more spot removal, Elspeth, and the occasional MB duress to take out walkers. MBD seems better against just about every other archetype I've played against due to the fact that your opponents only effectively have 12 life (give or take) to bleed before a merchant promptly ends the game.
I can't think of a time I'd ever want Kitty king over BBoV, but I've seen white heavy strategies that run both. You also have to compare apples to apples; one is a 3-drop, the other a 5-drop.
I really like the looks of the white black deck but I don't have the cards yet to test it. Has anyone had experience with it? What mus does it do worse in and what ones does it do better in? How many brimaz should be played or is bb better hands down.
The BW deck is arguably better against G/R monsters because it runs more spot removal, Elspeth, and the occasional MB duress to take out walkers. MBD seems better against just about every other archetype I've played against due to the fact that your opponents only effectively have 12 life (give or take) to bleed before a merchant promptly ends the game.
I can't think of a time I'd ever want Kitty king over BBoV, but I've seen white heavy strategies that run both. You also have to compare apples to apples; one is a 3-drop, the other a 5-drop.
Good point on that. I guess is bbov and brimaz better than specter and gray merch. And if we are taking out the merch with bw would read the bones be in a mixture of it and connections for card draw
I really like the looks of the white black deck but I don't have the cards yet to test it. Has anyone had experience with it? What mus does it do worse in and what ones does it do better in? How many brimaz should be played or is bb better hands down.
The BW deck is arguably better against G/R monsters because it runs more spot removal, Elspeth, and the occasional MB duress to take out walkers. MBD seems better against just about every other archetype I've played against due to the fact that your opponents only effectively have 12 life (give or take) to bleed before a merchant promptly ends the game.
I can't think of a time I'd ever want Kitty king over BBoV, but I've seen white heavy strategies that run both. You also have to compare apples to apples; one is a 3-drop, the other a 5-drop.
Good point on that. I guess is bbov and brimaz better than specter and gray merch. And if we are taking out the merch with bw would read the bones be in a mixture of it and connections for card draw
As the meta currently stands, the answer to that question is undoubtedly: no. Firstly, in a format where monocolored strategies reign supreme, a true dual colored deck (which is necessary to support brimaz, underworld, or downfall turn 3) suffers substantially due to the consistency advantage of the single color decks(excluding UW control archetypes which have virtually unlimited access to draw power). So, we are left with the next logical question: what about splashing? Here I will refer a previous post of mine:
"As a player of both decks, the W/B control deck is a lot less efficient than the monoB deck. I'm taking a break from baron right now because even though he's arguably at his best despite LBZ (DF being cut, monoB so prevalent), he is just too slow. You finally stick that massive 4/4 turn 6 (a mutavault open) and pass; monoB drops gary and wins the game. I really enjoy playing that deck, but its just so temperamental compared to MBD, which, conversely, is the most robust deck in the format."
As for RtB vs UC, RtB is a significantly worse card. It is suicidal to play it over UC against control and in the mirror. If you think about each time you've ever drawn more than 2 cards with UC, that should be evidence enough why its a better option. A burst of card availability that shocks you, or continuous card advantage for the rest of the game.
I really like the looks of the white black deck but I don't have the cards yet to test it. Has anyone had experience with it? What mus does it do worse in and what ones does it do better in? How many brimaz should be played or is bb better hands down.
The BW deck is arguably better against G/R monsters because it runs more spot removal, Elspeth, and the occasional MB duress to take out walkers. MBD seems better against just about every other archetype I've played against due to the fact that your opponents only effectively have 12 life (give or take) to bleed before a merchant promptly ends the game.
I can't think of a time I'd ever want Kitty king over BBoV, but I've seen white heavy strategies that run both. You also have to compare apples to apples; one is a 3-drop, the other a 5-drop.
Good point on that. I guess is bbov and brimaz better than specter and gray merch. And if we are taking out the merch with bw would read the bones be in a mixture of it and connections for card draw
As the meta currently stands, the answer to that question is undoubtedly: no. Firstly, in a format where monocolored strategies reign supreme, a true dual colored deck (which is necessary to support brimaz, underworld, or downfall turn 3) suffers substantially due to the consistency advantage of the single color decks(excluding UW control archetypes which have virtually unlimited access to draw power). So, we are left with the next logical question: what about splashing? Here I will refer a previous post of mine:
"As a player of both decks, the W/B control deck is a lot less efficient than the monoB deck. I'm taking a break from baron right now because even though he's arguably at his best despite LBZ (DF being cut, monoB so prevalent), he is just too slow. You finally stick that massive 4/4 turn 6 (a mutavault open) and pass; monoB drops gary and wins the game. I really enjoy playing that deck, but its just so temperamental compared to MBD, which, conversely, is the most robust deck in the format."
As for RtB vs UC, RtB is a significantly worse card. It is suicidal to play it over UC against control and in the mirror. If you think about each time you've ever drawn more than 2 cards with UC, that should be evidence enough why its a better option. A burst of card availability that shocks you, or continuous card advantage for the rest of the game.
Great post, but I do have to respectfully disagree with one of your statements. I like BBoV a lot better than Gary, and in my opinion it's worth the splash. The situation you described would require your opponent nut drawing and you getting a removal-light hand. BBoV is definitely better in the mirror, as well as against control decks.
There's no doubt that Baron is a better five drop than Gary--no contest in fact. However, in the devotion deck gary is much more efficient in attaining the end goal, whereas in the Bx control deck, merchant is pretty much a waste of a slot. Thus, BBoV is clearly the best option here, with much more board longevity and the ability to recur lifegain.
On the aside, it really just grinds my gears that he dies to mizzium mortars, especially because there is a devout mono-red player at my LGS.
Well Stran someone has to be that guy at the LGS!!! I saw a MBD today deck that played both nightveil and lifebane. It finished 12th at the latest SCG open. It cut 1 land, 1 connections, and 1 nightveil. Can we run that many 3 drops and not get punished? Can we afford to go to 25 land?? What do you guys think?
Well Stran someone has to be that guy at the LGS!!! I saw a MBD today deck that played both nightveil and lifebane. It finished 12th at the latest SCG open. It cut 1 land, 1 connections, and 1 nightveil. Can we run that many 3 drops and not get punished? Can we afford to go to 25 land?? What do you guys think?
25 lands is fine. I run 25 and have still lost to mana flood plenty xD.
As far as the absurd number of 3 drops... I feel like its too high. Not because of the ammount of three drops, but because it isn't streamlined. Specter and zombie are good against two very different decks. By including them in the same lineup... I would fear drawing the wrong combination of cards.
25 lands is fine. I run 25 and have still lost to mana flood plenty xD.
As far as the absurd number of 3 drops... I feel like its too high. Not because of the ammount of three drops, but because it isn't streamlined. Specter and zombie are good against two very different decks. By including them in the same lineup... I would fear drawing the wrong combination of cards.
I run 24 with only 2 Mutavaults. I prefer the extra removal. You are correct in fear of drawing the wrong combo of cards. I MD my specters. IMO, they are better against more match ups. You gotta remember that at FNM, you will see more rogue decks. If I played a major tourney once a week, my SB would look different, as may my MD.
@PJI, thanks for the input on how to play the deck.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
25 lands is fine. I run 25 and have still lost to mana flood plenty xD.
As far as the absurd number of 3 drops... I feel like its too high. Not because of the ammount of three drops, but because it isn't streamlined. Specter and zombie are good against two very different decks. By including them in the same lineup... I would fear drawing the wrong combination of cards.
I run 24 with only 2 Mutavaults. I prefer the extra removal. You are correct in fear of drawing the wrong combo of cards. I MD my specters. IMO, they are better against more match ups. You gotta remember that at FNM, you will see more rogue decks. If I played a major tourney once a week, my SB would look different, as may my MD.
@PJI, thanks for the input on how to play the deck.
You need mutavaults though if youre going the pack rat stategy. I lost one match at the 5k because I went pack rats... and didn't draw a mutavault. And that' with 4 of them
You need mutavaults though if youre going the pack rat stategy. I lost one match at the 5k because I went pack rats... and didn't draw a mutavault. And that' with 4 of them
Ahhhhhh, I see. Makes total sense. My fear was drawing 2 of them in my opening hand and then getting M-screwed.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
You need mutavaults though if youre going the pack rat stategy. I lost one match at the 5k because I went pack rats... and didn't draw a mutavault. And that' with 4 of them
Ahhhhhh, I see. Makes total sense. My fear was drawing 2 of them in my opening hand and then getting M-screwed.
I don't blame you. I personally don't like pack rats and like your line of thinking (I'd love to have 1-2 extra removal spells and less mutavaults). But... pack rats is just too good.
The nice thing about mutavault + packrats: With 4 mana you can pump pack rats twice in a turn. Turn 2 drop pack rat. Turn 3 make pack rat token. Turn 4 (assuming 3 swamps, one mutavault) you can make a token and pump pack rat at the same time (pushing it out of bile blight range).
I agree with that axman, I am keeping nightveil main and running 4x lifebanes in the board. I lost back to back rounds on Saturday to mono blue. Something I haven't lost in a long time. Suggestions for the sideboard? Mine currently is this:
4x lifebane zombie
4x duress
2x doom blade
2x erebos, god of the dead
2x dark betrayal
1x drown in sorrow
Do I need more drown in sorrow? Axman and I will be attending the GP in Cinncy. Is anyone traveling to Cinninati that would know what the meta might look like?
I agree with that axman, I am keeping nightveil main and running 4x lifebanes in the board. I lost back to back rounds on Saturday to mono blue. Something I haven't lost in a long time. Suggestions for the sideboard? Mine currently is this:
4x lifebane zombie
4x duress
2x doom blade
2x erebos, god of the dead
2x dark betrayal
1x drown in sorrow
Do I need more drown in sorrow? Axman and I will be attending the GP in Cinncy. Is anyone traveling to Cinninati that would know what the meta might look like?
Personally... I don't like dark betrayal in the SB. Yes.... its awesome vs the mirror, Mono-Black aggro, and BW humans, however it often simply makes our removal suite faster (taking out downfall for it) without actually adding to the number of our removal spells.
The nice thing about mutavault + packrats: With 4 mana you can pump pack rats twice in a turn. Turn 2 drop pack rat. Turn 3 make pack rat token. Turn 4 (assuming 3 swamps, one mutavault) you can make a token and pump pack rat at the same time (pushing it out of bile blight range).
You mean t5, you need 4 or do you just not attack with the 'Vault, and just use the +1 it gives to the Rats?
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
The nice thing about mutavault + packrats: With 4 mana you can pump pack rats twice in a turn. Turn 2 drop pack rat. Turn 3 make pack rat token. Turn 4 (assuming 3 swamps, one mutavault) you can make a token and pump pack rat at the same time (pushing it out of bile blight range).
You mean t5, you need 4 or do you just not attack with the 'Vault, and just use the +1 it gives to the Rats?
You don't attack with the mutavault. You just keep it ready in case they have any 3 damage or -3/-3 removal. Or if they have a 2/4. Nice thing about mutavault + pack rats: it actually reads ":t:: All your rats get +1/+1 until end of turn"
Yes, I would rather take a peek at their hand and play around what they have. Duress doesn't take any creatures, just their Plainswalkers and if you can clog the board with Rats, it's a non issue.
I do like the idea of keeping Specter in the MD now that you mention it, especially if we can get them to exile a land. Sounds interesting................
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Yes, I would rather take a peek at their hand and play around what they have. Duress doesn't take any creatures, just their Plainswalkers and if you can clog the board with Rats, it's a non issue.
I do like the idea of keeping Specter in the MD now that you mention it, especially if we can get them to exile a land. Sounds interesting................
When I ran specter main, I often found myself siding out all my pack rats. I just don't like pack rats VS GR. Personal preference.
The nice thing about mutavault + packrats: With 4 mana you can pump pack rats twice in a turn. Turn 2 drop pack rat. Turn 3 make pack rat token. Turn 4 (assuming 3 swamps, one mutavault) you can make a token and pump pack rat at the same time (pushing it out of bile blight range).
You mean t5, you need 4 or do you just not attack with the 'Vault, and just use the +1 it gives to the Rats?
You don't attack with the mutavault. You just keep it ready in case they have any 3 damage or -3/-3 removal. Or if they have a 2/4. Nice thing about mutavault + pack rats: it actually reads ":t:: All your rats get +1/+1 until end of turn"
So your saying that I can the Vault for itself? I didn't realize that.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
The nice thing about mutavault + packrats: With 4 mana you can pump pack rats twice in a turn. Turn 2 drop pack rat. Turn 3 make pack rat token. Turn 4 (assuming 3 swamps, one mutavault) you can make a token and pump pack rat at the same time (pushing it out of bile blight range).
You mean t5, you need 4 or do you just not attack with the 'Vault, and just use the +1 it gives to the Rats?
You don't attack with the mutavault. You just keep it ready in case they have any 3 damage or -3/-3 removal. Or if they have a 2/4. Nice thing about mutavault + pack rats: it actually reads ":t:: All your rats get +1/+1 until end of turn"
So your saying that I can the Vault for itself? I didn't realize that.
Mutavault only costs (1) to become a creature. It doesn't rely on tapping. Mutavault can tap for (1)... so yes. It can tap for one colorless mana and use that mana to turn itself into a creature.
mutavualt only pumps your pack rats... not your mutavault
Since this deck is so versatile, I like to turn it into more of an aggro-midrange when playing R/G, since racing them is typically easier than trying to grind them down. We can can TS one of two or three mizzium mortars turn 1, then spam evasive creatures or rats in the following turns which they can't realistically deal with W/O Domri Rade. After kicking in their door with lifebanes and NVS, just drop gary for 10 to the face.
Since this deck is so versatile, I like to turn it into more of an aggro-midrange when playing R/G, since racing them is typically easier than trying to grind them down. We can can TS one of two or three mizzium mortars turn 1, then spam evasive creatures or rats in the following turns which they can't realistically deal with W/O Domri Rade. After kicking in their door with lifebanes and NVS, just drop gary for 10 to the face.
couple things: wouldn't devour flesh be better than bile? The only thing that bile blight kills (my itself) is elvish mystic. Devour Flesh can kill a turn two carthyid... which can be huge.
Secondly: shouldn't we keep 1-2 connections in vs GR for draw late game? The only time I've lost vs GR is when my draws start peetering out late game.
The BW deck is arguably better against G/R monsters because it runs more spot removal, Elspeth, and the occasional MB duress to take out walkers. MBD seems better against just about every other archetype I've played against due to the fact that your opponents only effectively have 12 life (give or take) to bleed before a merchant promptly ends the game.
I can't think of a time I'd ever want Kitty king over BBoV, but I've seen white heavy strategies that run both. You also have to compare apples to apples; one is a 3-drop, the other a 5-drop.
BMono Black DevotionB
BB/w ControlW
Good point on that. I guess is bbov and brimaz better than specter and gray merch. And if we are taking out the merch with bw would read the bones be in a mixture of it and connections for card draw
As the meta currently stands, the answer to that question is undoubtedly: no. Firstly, in a format where monocolored strategies reign supreme, a true dual colored deck (which is necessary to support brimaz, underworld, or downfall turn 3) suffers substantially due to the consistency advantage of the single color decks(excluding UW control archetypes which have virtually unlimited access to draw power). So, we are left with the next logical question: what about splashing? Here I will refer a previous post of mine:
"As a player of both decks, the W/B control deck is a lot less efficient than the monoB deck. I'm taking a break from baron right now because even though he's arguably at his best despite LBZ (DF being cut, monoB so prevalent), he is just too slow. You finally stick that massive 4/4 turn 6 (a mutavault open) and pass; monoB drops gary and wins the game. I really enjoy playing that deck, but its just so temperamental compared to MBD, which, conversely, is the most robust deck in the format."
As for RtB vs UC, RtB is a significantly worse card. It is suicidal to play it over UC against control and in the mirror. If you think about each time you've ever drawn more than 2 cards with UC, that should be evidence enough why its a better option. A burst of card availability that shocks you, or continuous card advantage for the rest of the game.
BMono Black DevotionB
BB/w ControlW
Great post, but I do have to respectfully disagree with one of your statements. I like BBoV a lot better than Gary, and in my opinion it's worth the splash. The situation you described would require your opponent nut drawing and you getting a removal-light hand. BBoV is definitely better in the mirror, as well as against control decks.
On the aside, it really just grinds my gears that he dies to mizzium mortars, especially because there is a devout mono-red player at my LGS.
BMono Black DevotionB
BB/w ControlW
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
25 lands is fine. I run 25 and have still lost to mana flood plenty xD.
As far as the absurd number of 3 drops... I feel like its too high. Not because of the ammount of three drops, but because it isn't streamlined. Specter and zombie are good against two very different decks. By including them in the same lineup... I would fear drawing the wrong combination of cards.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I run 24 with only 2 Mutavaults. I prefer the extra removal. You are correct in fear of drawing the wrong combo of cards. I MD my specters. IMO, they are better against more match ups. You gotta remember that at FNM, you will see more rogue decks. If I played a major tourney once a week, my SB would look different, as may my MD.
@PJI, thanks for the input on how to play the deck.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
You need mutavaults though if youre going the pack rat stategy. I lost one match at the 5k because I went pack rats... and didn't draw a mutavault. And that' with 4 of them
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Ahhhhhh, I see. Makes total sense. My fear was drawing 2 of them in my opening hand and then getting M-screwed.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
I don't blame you. I personally don't like pack rats and like your line of thinking (I'd love to have 1-2 extra removal spells and less mutavaults). But... pack rats is just too good.
The nice thing about mutavault + packrats: With 4 mana you can pump pack rats twice in a turn. Turn 2 drop pack rat. Turn 3 make pack rat token. Turn 4 (assuming 3 swamps, one mutavault) you can make a token and pump pack rat at the same time (pushing it out of bile blight range).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
4x lifebane zombie
4x duress
2x doom blade
2x erebos, god of the dead
2x dark betrayal
1x drown in sorrow
Do I need more drown in sorrow? Axman and I will be attending the GP in Cinncy. Is anyone traveling to Cinninati that would know what the meta might look like?
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
Personally... I don't like dark betrayal in the SB. Yes.... its awesome vs the mirror, Mono-Black aggro, and BW humans, however it often simply makes our removal suite faster (taking out downfall for it) without actually adding to the number of our removal spells.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'm still undecided if I should bring in duress vs this matchup.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
+4 lifebane
-1 Hero's Downfall
-1 Underworld Connection
+2 Doom Blade
maybe -1 Erebos
+1 Devour Flesh
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
you get rid of specter? I thought specter could be very good VS GR (exiles top card, flys to hit PWs, etc.)
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
You mean t5, you need 4 or do you just not attack with the 'Vault, and just use the +1 it gives to the Rats?
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
You don't attack with the mutavault. You just keep it ready in case they have any 3 damage or -3/-3 removal. Or if they have a 2/4. Nice thing about mutavault + pack rats: it actually reads ":t:: All your rats get +1/+1 until end of turn"
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I do like the idea of keeping Specter in the MD now that you mention it, especially if we can get them to exile a land. Sounds interesting................
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
When I ran specter main, I often found myself siding out all my pack rats. I just don't like pack rats VS GR. Personal preference.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
So your saying that I can the Vault for itself? I didn't realize that.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Mutavault only costs (1) to become a creature. It doesn't rely on tapping. Mutavault can tap for (1)... so yes. It can tap for one colorless mana and use that mana to turn itself into a creature.
mutavualt only pumps your pack rats... not your mutavault
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Now for the guts:
-4 Underworld Connections (we want live draws every turn)
-2 Devour Flesh (Totally meh against r/g, doesn't help race)
+2 Doom Blade
+3 Lifebane Zombie
+1 Erebos, God of the Dead
BMono Black DevotionB
BB/w ControlW
couple things: wouldn't devour flesh be better than bile? The only thing that bile blight kills (my itself) is elvish mystic. Devour Flesh can kill a turn two carthyid... which can be huge.
Secondly: shouldn't we keep 1-2 connections in vs GR for draw late game? The only time I've lost vs GR is when my draws start peetering out late game.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA