Disciple would be great if we had a way to utilize that body without spending another card. Nykthos is a step one, now we need something like lashwrithe or kessig wolf run in black.
4 mana is for cards like polukranous and desecration demon and advent of the wurm and jace. Not disciple of bolas but slightly better CA for double the cost.
It's funny because about a rotation ago desecration demon and advent of the wurm were "unplayable jank" with zero copies in any top8. Even Jace barely made it to fringe playability.
Hello everybody! I won last FNM with a MBC, or MBD or any way you want to call it. I played against Big Blue, GW Aggro/Midrange, UW Control and RDW. Also tested against RG Aggro/Midrange feat. Domri, and won with no big problems. Here's the list I was playing:
I'm thinking about a splash, even if it slows down the deck a lot. I think that Deathrite Shaman could be good for this kind of deck, and green provides a good utility/finisher in Primeval Bounty.
About Disciple of Phenax:
- in OP's list it is just awful. Quoting him, "Coming down on the curve in this deck, very often you'll be playing this card for devotion = 4", but the only situation where you could do this is Underworld Connections turn 3 (assuming you're NOT under pressure) and Disciple turn 4, but you have both cards only in 3x in your deck, so this isn't a common play, trust me.
- I never tested it, but it could be played in a deck with at least 7 double black mana 2- or 3-drops (e.g. 3 Underworld Connections + 4 Lifebane Zombie). Not bad at all on turn 4, but almost useless in the late game.
- I'm not thinking about playing it maindeck, because of the poor body and because I think we have better options and only a few free slots. I don't understand why people would play it in the maindeck but only 3 Thoughtseize. Play 4 of them, and then if you really need additional discard MD, you can look at other options. Lands are currently not relevant, as Mutavaults and other good lands are played turn 2/3, or as soon as they are drawn. And if you think that paying 2 life is too much, stop playing monoblack!
Hello everybody! I won last FNM with a MBC, or MBD or any way you want to call it. I played against Big Blue, GW Aggro/Midrange, UW Control and RDW. Also tested against RG Aggro/Midrange feat. Domri, and won with no big problems. Here's the list I was playing:
I'm thinking about a splash, even if it slows down the deck a lot. I think that Deathrite Shaman could be good for this kind of deck, and green provides a good utility/finisher in Primeval Bounty.
About Disciple of Phenax:
- in OP's list it is just awful. Quoting him, "Coming down on the curve in this deck, very often you'll be playing this card for devotion = 4", but the only situation where you could do this is Underworld Connections turn 3 (assuming you're NOT under pressure) and Disciple turn 4, but you have both cards only in 3x in your deck, so this isn't a common play, trust me.
- I never tested it, but it could be played in a deck with at least 7 double black mana 2- or 3-drops (e.g. 3 Underworld Connections + 4 Lifebane Zombie). Not bad at all on turn 4, but almost useless in the late game.
- I'm not thinking about playing it maindeck, because of the poor body and because I think we have better options and only a few free slots. I don't understand why people would play it in the maindeck but only 3 Thoughtseize. Play 4 of them, and then if you really need additional discard MD, you can look at other options. Lands are currently not relevant, as Mutavaults and other good lands are played turn 2/3, or as soon as they are drawn. And if you think that paying 2 life is too much, stop playing monoblack!
I think it's very funny how you come out in support of Primeval Bounty in your first sentence, and then go ahead and bash Disciple of Phenax in the rest of your post. Primeval Bounty is far and away much more unplayable in this deck than Disciple.
I'm not thinking about playing it maindeck, because of the poor body and because I think we have better options and only a few free slots.
Find one and we'll discuss that.
The only thing I'm willing to concede on Disciple is that maybe playing three is too much. But I'll continue to support Disciple of Phenax as an amazing card in Black Devotion lists until my fingers go numb.
Can we please call this Nyk at Nite?
Also I think it could use more Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as once you get the devotion rolling, you can cast some INSANE shenanigans.
Finally, a post about something other than Disciple!
Haha, just kidding. I do like the name. And yeah, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is an absolutely bonkers card. I've had some ridiculous shenangians with this card that have won me games with 18 damage life leeches in one turn.
The only problem is that I would hate to draw two Nykthos in the same game 90% of the time. Sure, you can double up on the mana ramp by using one, playing the one in your hand, and then activating the second one for a boatload of mana, but that will happen about as often as you drawing 2 Nykthos in your opening hand, and those are hands you just can't be keeping. If I had some way of getting some value out of lands in my graveyard, (Deathrite Shaman comes to mind) I would definitely play two Nykthos.
Going against an unknown meta (this is my first standard tourney since OG-Ravnica). Has been playing very nicely so far against random decks and tonight it'll be put to the test! I feel like I might be looking at my Agent of the Fates, Nighthowlers, and Baleful Eidolons wishing they were better cards - but we'll see.
My plan is to achieve early board presence/control and ride that to victory.
Hello everybody! I won last FNM with a MBC, or MBD or any way you want to call it. I played against Big Blue, GW Aggro/Midrange, UW Control and RDW. Also tested against RG Aggro/Midrange feat. Domri, and won with no big problems. Here's the list I was playing:
I just want to say I like your list a lot and I can see how you won with it. Seems very solid with ways of gaining life, removal, and win cons. I dig it. I think this should be the example of a real 'Devotion' deck that OP should be considering instead of playing janky Disciple.
I just want to say I like your list a lot and I can see how you won with it. Seems very solid with ways of gaining life, removal, and win cons. I dig it. I think this should be the example of a real 'Devotion' deck that OP should be considering instead of playing janky Disciple.
You realize his deck is the same exact thing as mine except a literal three card difference... right?
I like Pack Rat a lot. Let me know how that card works out for you. Also, if you are looking for advice, try getting another Underworld Connections in there. Control has a really tough time against that card.
Going against an unknown meta (this is my first standard tourney since OG-Ravnica). Has been playing very nicely so far against random decks and tonight it'll be put to the test! I feel like I might be looking at my Agent of the Fates, Nighthowlers, and Baleful Eidolons wishing they were better cards - but we'll see.
My plan is to achieve early board presence/control and ride that to victory.
Yeah, the only thing I would say is that there's not any ways outside of your Bestow guys to trigger your Agent of the Fates Heroic, and they may just be better served as removal cards... but your deck should be sweet against creature decks.
Also Blood Scrivener would be better served as Read the Bones. Not all four, but maybe you could take two our and put in two Read the Bones. Just some ideas. Let me know how it does.
I just want to say I like your list a lot and I can see how you won with it. Seems very solid with ways of gaining life, removal, and win cons. I dig it. I think this should be the example of a real 'Devotion' deck that OP should be considering instead of playing janky Disciple.
Just to play devils advocate, if those two corrupts were instead janky disciple this list would be awful? I'd go far to say that corrupt is significantly worse than most cards one could be playing in this deck yet it receives praise from you just because it isn't disciple. I don't understand your hate with the card and why some bad and janky cards like corrupt get your stamp of approval. I don't want or need your approval I'm just trying to understand your logic here.
corrupt isnt bad or janky its just maybe a little expensive being 6 mana. But corrupt can kill walkers, end the aggro match up, or kill your opponent for like 10+ dmg. I loved corrupt in my MBC list before rotation i was even running 4 in the 75 it was just that good for me.
Disciple on the other hand would just be better off as a thoughtseize, duress imo. Against control Disciple can be very good and thus i think it is sideboard material and not maindeck material because in the maindeck you want to be most of time playing desecration demon which is soooooooooooooooooooo much better most of the time.
Just to play devils advocate, if those two corrupts were instead janky disciple this list would be awful? I'd go far to say that corrupt is significantly worse than most cards one could be playing in this deck yet it receives praise from you just because it isn't disciple. I don't understand your hate with the card and why some bad and janky cards like corrupt get your stamp of approval. I don't want or need your approval I'm just trying to understand your logic here.
Um Corrupt is not janky. Corrupt swings games and kills just about anything you need it to. The discard dude is not where you want to be long term.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Disciple on the other hand would just be better off as a thoughtseize, duress imo. Against control Disciple can be very good and thus i think it is sideboard material and not maindeck material because in the maindeck you want to be most of time playing desecration demon which is soooooooooooooooooooo much better most of the time.
If you're saying that Duress is mainboard material, then I don't know how I'm going to convince you of anything.
Desecration Demon isn't always good either. There's a time and place to be playing them, and you aren't always going to be wanting to be slamming down a Desecration Demon on turn 4 when you can play a Disciple instead.
If the general consensus of this forum is that corrupt is a playable card and not a "jankfest" then I don't know how you guys can call this a competitive discussion forums.
We are discussing role-playing cards and all of you are automatically dismissing a 4 mana coercion that leaves behind a 1/3, which in the past was a very playable card and now we get a body for extra devotion for 1 more mana. If coercion was playable before disciple certainly is now. Instead people are discussing the merits of a proven sideline, fringe limited playable card in corrupt.
The other half of people in here are suggesting cards we are already running to play over disciple. This is all well and good until I realize that I am already playing all of these suggested cards and have played over 200 games with these cards. And based on my games and my opinion, which is apparently the only thing that matters on here is that disciple is better than the alternatives that we are not running. Turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 3 lifebane zombie into turn 4 disciple is game ending, no non-aggro deck can come back from this and if you are still unsure I insist that you try it for yourself before coming back and calling it unplayable jank which seems to be the only argument against it so far.
Just my 2 Cents, been brewing this for a while, well before I found this thread. Disciple is a pretty great card, against control where most of your problems can arise its great helps you remove threats It gives you 2 devotion which is pretty key and with whip recurring it can be backbreaking. On the other issue, that of corrupt being unplayable jank I have to disagree. I've been main decking 2 corrupts for a while now and they have not underperformed. If there is any card on the list that i've felt the least effective it's been erebos I just find that for 4 mana there are usually just other things you want to be doing, be it whip or disciple or Liliana almost all of the cards affect the board more than erebos does in my experience.
All the quibbling about high drops is kind of pointless though IMO that place where the deck needs the most help is the 1-2 drop spot Thrill Kill can be ok in the aggro matchup and worst eats a removal spell vs control pack rat is too much card disadvantage and blood scrivener never seems to activate enough to warrant a spot in my list.
Turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 3 lifebane zombie into turn 4 disciple is game ending, no non-aggro deck can come back from this and if you are still unsure I insist that you try it for yourself before coming back and calling it unplayable jank which seems to be the only argument against it so far.
How do you figure no non-aggro deck can come back from that opening? You do three 1 for 1 trades. I would agree that you're in a strong position but an opponent can top deck an answer and with you having a whopping 4 power on the board they have time to draw answers.
A four mana 1/3 is a bad body for the cost. DD is way better in most match ups.
Disciple's effect isnt better than thoughtseize. Disciple wont end the game like mutilate did for four mana last season. Corrupt is still good and versatile just dont run more than 2 mb and you will be fine, sure lili makes it better and you could run 1 of those perfectly reasonable in mono black she isn't bad at all in a mono black list.
I just would rather not play 1/3 and take a meh card they show me because i couldnt see their whole hand.
I would rather play 6/6's and thoughtseize. Sounds like a much better strategy.
as i said earlier, i feel like disciple could be a great card against control and thus good sideboard material. I just really cant see it being better than Desecration demon in the main deck.
I don't see that Disciple as anything better than sideboard material to be honest. It is horrible against any aggressive deck, and it isn't even that great against control. Yeah, it is coercion, but it leaves you a 1 power body. Yay.
And to people digging on Corruption. Corruption has been a card in mono black since it was first printed. I'm not sure I'd want to play any more than 1 or 2, but there are arguments for their inclusion.
I just want to give you the final chime in on Disciple and be done with this thread.
#1: This is not coercion. Coercion got to see their entire hand no matter what. Disciple needs other mana symbols on the field or it literally does nothing. They are not going to show you any card that is actually needed. Then on top of that how do you know what they actually need? They could be showing you everything they need allowing you to over think and it make a mistake.
#2: 1/3 body is absolutely horrible. Say you are on the play and you cast this turn 4. Your opponent, in response, drops a boon satyr. They show you some cards that doesn't really matter because all they cared about in the first place is that flash boon satyr. Now they get to untap and swing in with their 4/2 into your 1/3. His body does not a damn thing.
#3: You have 3 cards at 4 cmc with BB in their casting cost: Desecration Demon, Whip of Erobus, and Liliana's Reaver. Reaver is barely playable at 4/3 with a card advantage built in. Whip is again card advantage and lifegain which black desperately needs. Desecraton Demon has proven himself again and again. Why would I ever run a 4-5th pick in power?
The card is really just crap. If you really want to disrupt your opponent just run Sin Collector or Duress.
I just want to give you the final chime in on Disciple and be done with this thread.
#1: This is not coercion. Coercion got to see their entire hand no matter what. Disciple needs other mana symbols on the field or it literally does nothing. They are not going to show you any card that is actually needed. Then on top of that how do you know what they actually need? They could be showing you everything they need allowing you to over think and it make a mistake.
#2: 1/3 body is absolutely horrible. Say you are on the play and you cast this turn 4. Your opponent, in response, drops a boon satyr. They show you some cards that doesn't really matter because all they cared about in the first place is that flash boon satyr. Now they get to untap and swing in with their 4/2 into your 1/3. His body does not a damn thing.
#3: You have 3 cards at 4 cmc with BB in their casting cost: Desecration Demon, Whip of Erobus, and Liliana's Reaver. Reaver is barely playable at 4/3 with a card advantage built in. Whip is again card advantage and lifegain which black desperately needs. Desecraton Demon has proven himself again and again. Why would I ever run a 4-5th pick in power?
The card is really just crap. If you really want to disrupt your opponent just run Sin Collector or Duress.
Or gain an actual card advantage by playing Mind Rot, which is terrible.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Main Deck:
1 Abhorrent Overlord
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Corrupt
4 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Read the Bones
1 Rescue from the Underworld
3 Thoughtseize
2 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
23 Swamp
Sideboard:
2 Devour Flesh
3 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Gift of Orzhova
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Pack Rat
1 Rescue from the Underworld
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
I just want to give you the final chime in on Disciple and be done with this thread.
#1: This is not coercion. Coercion got to see their entire hand no matter what. Disciple needs other mana symbols on the field or it literally does nothing. They are not going to show you any card that is actually needed. Then on top of that how do you know what they actually need? They could be showing you everything they need allowing you to over think and it make a mistake.
#2: 1/3 body is absolutely horrible. Say you are on the play and you cast this turn 4. Your opponent, in response, drops a boon satyr. They show you some cards that doesn't really matter because all they cared about in the first place is that flash boon satyr. Now they get to untap and swing in with their 4/2 into your 1/3. His body does not a damn thing.
#3: You have 3 cards at 4 cmc with BB in their casting cost: Desecration Demon, Whip of Erobus, and Liliana's Reaver. Reaver is barely playable at 4/3 with a card advantage built in. Whip is again card advantage and lifegain which black desperately needs. Desecraton Demon has proven himself again and again. Why would I ever run a 4-5th pick in power?
The card is really just crap. If you really want to disrupt your opponent just run Sin Collector or Duress.
I'll go through each of your points in order.
#1: Disciple won't be coming down earlier than turn four. You would ideally be having at least two devotion before you play the card, sometimes even three or four. If your opponent has seven cards in hand on turn four, then you're probably in a good position anyways, so it doesn't even matter. And, I know it might be confusing, but you have more than one option to play on turn four. You don't HAVE TO drop a Disciple on Turn four. There's lots of other cards in this deck and if you're playing this card statically, you're going to lose and that's not the decks fault.
#2: Sure, the 1/3 body is not impressive. We don't play the card for it's 1/3 body. And your example with the Boon Satyr? I don't see how that's ever an issue. The deck can deal with a measly four damage, and the Disciple can block any of the other 2/x's that the green player had dropped earlier. Don't forget, Gray Merchant easily drops down for 8+ life drain VERY easily in this deck. Aggro decks have a very hard time against this deck.
#3: Disciple of Phenax helps the game plan by having a powerful ETB effect. Liliana's Reaver has to connect with the opponent to have an effect. In Standard, you tell me which one is better. I'll give you a hint: it's the one that could eat a Supreme Verdict and still have been useful.
Also, stop comparing Disciple to Duress and Sin Collector. They don't fill the same roles, and they don't do the same job. Sure, you see their hand, but that's not the only reason we play Disciple. Stop analyzing Disciple in a vacuum and look at the bigger picture.
EDIT: Let me just add a little bit more about point #1. What I'm saying is that if you're playing a naked Disciple for two devotion on turn four, then that's a player error, not a problem with the deck. This deck builds on itself, and Disciple isn't a card that's supposed to be played by itself. Even with that in mind, it could be turn 12, your opponent has two cards in hand, and even then, playing Disciple for Devotion 2 is still a great play and nothing to ignore.
Or gain an actual card advantage by playing Mind Rot, which is terrible.
Not relevant. Mind Rot is an entirely different card. Just because two cards say "discard" in the text doesn't mean that they fill the same role.
#1: Disciple won't be coming down earlier than turn four. You would ideally be having at least two devotion before you play the card, sometimes even three or four. If your opponent has seven cards in hand on turn four, then you're probably in a good position anyways, so it doesn't even matter. And, I know it might be confusing, but you have more than one option to play on turn four. You don't HAVE TO drop a Disciple on Turn four. There's lots of other cards in this deck and if you're playing this card statically, you're going to lose and that's not the decks fault.
#2: Sure, the 1/3 body is not impressive. We don't play the card for it's 1/3 body. And your example with the Boon Satyr? I don't see how that's ever an issue. The deck can deal with a measly four damage, and the Disciple can block any of the other 2/x's that the green player had dropped earlier. Don't forget, Gray Merchant easily drops down for 8+ life drain VERY easily in this deck. Aggro decks have a very hard time against this deck.
#3: Disciple of Phenax helps the game plan by having a powerful ETB effect. Liliana's Reaver has to connect with the opponent to have an effect. In Standard, you tell me which one is better. I'll give you a hint: it's the one that could eat a Supreme Verdict and still have been useful.
Also, stop comparing Disciple to Duress and Sin Collector. They don't fill the same roles, and they don't do the same job. Sure, you see their hand, but that's not the only reason we play Disciple. Stop analyzing Disciple in a vacuum and look at the bigger picture.
EDIT: Let me just add a little bit more about point #1. What I'm saying is that if you're playing a naked Disciple for two devotion on turn four, then that's a player error, not a problem with the deck. This deck builds on itself, and Disciple isn't a card that's supposed to be played by itself. Even with that in mind, it could be turn 12, your opponent has two cards in hand, and even then, playing Disciple for Devotion 2 is still a great play and nothing to ignore.
Not relevant. Mind Rot is an entirely different card. Just because two cards say "discard" in the text doesn't mean that they fill the same role.
You admitting that playing Disciple turn 4 is a bad play just makes your point weaker. That means that he is pretty much useless without support from the rest of the deck.
Yes, he adds devotion, so do a ton of other cards, like some of the ones Twicky_Kid mentioned.
This is a competitive forum, you agreed to the fact that you would be discussing only competitive cards in this forum. Everyone in this thread besides you and your 'friend' have come to a consensus that Disciple of Phenax is not a competitive card, and your main argument of 'just play it' is not leading to valuable discussion nor is anyone changing their mind.
If you want to discuss janky cards you really should not have posted this in the competitive(established) subforum.
You admitting that playing Disciple turn 4 is a bad play just makes your point weaker. That means that he is pretty much useless without support from the rest of the deck.
Yes, he adds devotion, so do a ton of other cards, like some of the ones Twicky_Kid mentioned.
This is a competitive forum, you agreed to the fact that you would be discussing only competitive cards in this forum. Everyone in this thread besides you and your 'friend' have come to a consensus that Disciple of Phenax is not a competitive card, and your main argument of 'just play it' is not leading to valuable discussion nor is anyone changing their mind.
If you want to discuss janky cards you really should not have posted this in the competitive(established) subforum.
I did not admit that playing Disciple on Turn 4 is a bad play. I said playing a Turn 4 Disciple with no Devotion on board can potentially be a bad play. I have no earthly idea how you got that from "What I'm saying is that if you're playing a naked Disciple for two devotion on turn four, then that's a player error, not a problem with the deck." I've personally have never played a Disciple and not seen the opponents entire hand. That's called making smart plays. This isn't an aggro deck where you just slam cards down: you have to think about the decisions you make.
Do you think I haven't tried playing other cards? Disciple of Phenax wasn't even on my list of cards to play for a while. I even had wrote him off myself till I saw it in play, and it changed my mind entirely.
And that's just false about only me and Balluka defending it. There has been two other posters in here saying that Disciple is more than it appears, and one of them even including an excerpt from LSV that says that Disciple is a solid card in a devotion based deck. (Here's the link: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/theros-set-review-black/)
I'm not here to discuss a single card. I'm here to discuss a strong, competitive deck that has multiple different versions making appearances all over. I just so happen to believe that Disciple of Phenax most definitely fits in this deck and is not a detriment to the decks success in any way, shape, or form.
#2: Sure, the 1/3 body is not impressive. We don't play the card for it's 1/3 body. And your example with the Boon Satyr? I don't see how that's ever an issue.
Did you even see the top 8 this weekend? Boon Satyr was every where. Wolfir Avenger was tech in a lot of decks last standard. The guy was a true powerhouse. Boon Satyr is even better. If you think this is a card you are not going to run into over and over again though the next 4 months well......I'm sorry we are living in different worlds.
It is ok to have pet cards or even a 1-2 but to have 3 pages of you defending this crappy card is doing a true disservice to the thread. While we are discussing how ****ty this card is we are not improving the deck.
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It's funny because about a rotation ago desecration demon and advent of the wurm were "unplayable jank" with zero copies in any top8. Even Jace barely made it to fringe playability.
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Mutavault
19 Swamp
Creatures (14)
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Desecration Demon
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Instant (11)
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
2 Devour Flesh
2 Pharika's Cure
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
2 Corrupt
Enchantment (5)
3 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Devour Flesh
1 Doom Blade
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Shrivel
3 Duress
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle
I'm thinking about a splash, even if it slows down the deck a lot. I think that Deathrite Shaman could be good for this kind of deck, and green provides a good utility/finisher in Primeval Bounty.
About Disciple of Phenax:
- in OP's list it is just awful. Quoting him, "Coming down on the curve in this deck, very often you'll be playing this card for devotion = 4", but the only situation where you could do this is Underworld Connections turn 3 (assuming you're NOT under pressure) and Disciple turn 4, but you have both cards only in 3x in your deck, so this isn't a common play, trust me.
- I never tested it, but it could be played in a deck with at least 7 double black mana 2- or 3-drops (e.g. 3 Underworld Connections + 4 Lifebane Zombie). Not bad at all on turn 4, but almost useless in the late game.
- I'm not thinking about playing it maindeck, because of the poor body and because I think we have better options and only a few free slots. I don't understand why people would play it in the maindeck but only 3 Thoughtseize. Play 4 of them, and then if you really need additional discard MD, you can look at other options. Lands are currently not relevant, as Mutavaults and other good lands are played turn 2/3, or as soon as they are drawn. And if you think that paying 2 life is too much, stop playing monoblack!
Also I think it could use more Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as once you get the devotion rolling, you can cast some INSANE shenanigans.
I think it's very funny how you come out in support of Primeval Bounty in your first sentence, and then go ahead and bash Disciple of Phenax in the rest of your post. Primeval Bounty is far and away much more unplayable in this deck than Disciple.
Find one and we'll discuss that.
The only thing I'm willing to concede on Disciple is that maybe playing three is too much. But I'll continue to support Disciple of Phenax as an amazing card in Black Devotion lists until my fingers go numb.
Finally, a post about something other than Disciple!
Haha, just kidding. I do like the name. And yeah, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is an absolutely bonkers card. I've had some ridiculous shenangians with this card that have won me games with 18 damage life leeches in one turn.
The only problem is that I would hate to draw two Nykthos in the same game 90% of the time. Sure, you can double up on the mana ramp by using one, playing the one in your hand, and then activating the second one for a boatload of mana, but that will happen about as often as you drawing 2 Nykthos in your opening hand, and those are hands you just can't be keeping. If I had some way of getting some value out of lands in my graveyard, (Deathrite Shaman comes to mind) I would definitely play two Nykthos.
4x Blood Scrivener
4x Desecration Demon
3x Baleful Eidolon
3x Agent of the Fates
3x Nighthowler
3x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2x Crypt Ghast
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Whip of Erebos
4x Thoughtseize
instantaneity (08)
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Ultimate Price
2x Devour Flesh
landmanadrops (24)
24x Swamp
3x Duress
3x Doom Blade
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Lifebane Zombie
Going against an unknown meta (this is my first standard tourney since OG-Ravnica). Has been playing very nicely so far against random decks and tonight it'll be put to the test! I feel like I might be looking at my Agent of the Fates, Nighthowlers, and Baleful Eidolons wishing they were better cards - but we'll see.
My plan is to achieve early board presence/control and ride that to victory.
I just want to say I like your list a lot and I can see how you won with it. Seems very solid with ways of gaining life, removal, and win cons. I dig it. I think this should be the example of a real 'Devotion' deck that OP should be considering instead of playing janky Disciple.
Username: Cabz
4 thoughtseize
Instants (6):
4 doom blade
2 hero's downfall
Artifacts/Enchantments (4):
2 underworld connections
2 whip of erebos
Creatures (22):
4 disciple of phenax
2 erebos, god of the dead
4 gray merchant of asphodel
3 lifebane zombie
4 nightveil specter
1 pack rat
4 returned phalanx
1 nykthos, shrine to nyx
19 swamp
4 watery grave
4 desecration demon
2 devour flesh
2 duress
1 hero's downfall
1 lifebane zombie
1 pack rat
4 pharika's cure
You realize his deck is the same exact thing as mine except a literal three card difference... right?
I like Pack Rat a lot. Let me know how that card works out for you. Also, if you are looking for advice, try getting another Underworld Connections in there. Control has a really tough time against that card.
Yeah, the only thing I would say is that there's not any ways outside of your Bestow guys to trigger your Agent of the Fates Heroic, and they may just be better served as removal cards... but your deck should be sweet against creature decks.
Also Blood Scrivener would be better served as Read the Bones. Not all four, but maybe you could take two our and put in two Read the Bones. Just some ideas. Let me know how it does.
Just to play devils advocate, if those two corrupts were instead janky disciple this list would be awful? I'd go far to say that corrupt is significantly worse than most cards one could be playing in this deck yet it receives praise from you just because it isn't disciple. I don't understand your hate with the card and why some bad and janky cards like corrupt get your stamp of approval. I don't want or need your approval I'm just trying to understand your logic here.
Disciple on the other hand would just be better off as a thoughtseize, duress imo. Against control Disciple can be very good and thus i think it is sideboard material and not maindeck material because in the maindeck you want to be most of time playing desecration demon which is soooooooooooooooooooo much better most of the time.
my input. Dont diss corrupt.
Um Corrupt is not janky. Corrupt swings games and kills just about anything you need it to. The discard dude is not where you want to be long term.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Hero's Downfall, Dreadbore.
Doom Blade, Pharika's Cure, Desecration Demon, Hero's Downfall, Gray Merchant of Asphodel and any other removal spell I may be missing.
We play four Gray Merchant of Asphodel, which is a cheaper Corrupt for one less mana that can be recurred.
Corrupt is an overcosted nuke that is better off in a list with other cards like Liliana of the Dark Realms. It is jank.
If you're saying that Duress is mainboard material, then I don't know how I'm going to convince you of anything.
Desecration Demon isn't always good either. There's a time and place to be playing them, and you aren't always going to be wanting to be slamming down a Desecration Demon on turn 4 when you can play a Disciple instead.
We are discussing role-playing cards and all of you are automatically dismissing a 4 mana coercion that leaves behind a 1/3, which in the past was a very playable card and now we get a body for extra devotion for 1 more mana. If coercion was playable before disciple certainly is now. Instead people are discussing the merits of a proven sideline, fringe limited playable card in corrupt.
The other half of people in here are suggesting cards we are already running to play over disciple. This is all well and good until I realize that I am already playing all of these suggested cards and have played over 200 games with these cards. And based on my games and my opinion, which is apparently the only thing that matters on here is that disciple is better than the alternatives that we are not running. Turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 3 lifebane zombie into turn 4 disciple is game ending, no non-aggro deck can come back from this and if you are still unsure I insist that you try it for yourself before coming back and calling it unplayable jank which seems to be the only argument against it so far.
All the quibbling about high drops is kind of pointless though IMO that place where the deck needs the most help is the 1-2 drop spot Thrill Kill can be ok in the aggro matchup and worst eats a removal spell vs control pack rat is too much card disadvantage and blood scrivener never seems to activate enough to warrant a spot in my list.
How do you figure no non-aggro deck can come back from that opening? You do three 1 for 1 trades. I would agree that you're in a strong position but an opponent can top deck an answer and with you having a whopping 4 power on the board they have time to draw answers.
Disciple's effect isnt better than thoughtseize. Disciple wont end the game like mutilate did for four mana last season. Corrupt is still good and versatile just dont run more than 2 mb and you will be fine, sure lili makes it better and you could run 1 of those perfectly reasonable in mono black she isn't bad at all in a mono black list.
I just would rather not play 1/3 and take a meh card they show me because i couldnt see their whole hand.
I would rather play 6/6's and thoughtseize. Sounds like a much better strategy.
And to people digging on Corruption. Corruption has been a card in mono black since it was first printed. I'm not sure I'd want to play any more than 1 or 2, but there are arguments for their inclusion.
#1: This is not coercion. Coercion got to see their entire hand no matter what. Disciple needs other mana symbols on the field or it literally does nothing. They are not going to show you any card that is actually needed. Then on top of that how do you know what they actually need? They could be showing you everything they need allowing you to over think and it make a mistake.
#2: 1/3 body is absolutely horrible. Say you are on the play and you cast this turn 4. Your opponent, in response, drops a boon satyr. They show you some cards that doesn't really matter because all they cared about in the first place is that flash boon satyr. Now they get to untap and swing in with their 4/2 into your 1/3. His body does not a damn thing.
#3: You have 3 cards at 4 cmc with BB in their casting cost: Desecration Demon, Whip of Erobus, and Liliana's Reaver. Reaver is barely playable at 4/3 with a card advantage built in. Whip is again card advantage and lifegain which black desperately needs. Desecraton Demon has proven himself again and again. Why would I ever run a 4-5th pick in power?
The card is really just crap. If you really want to disrupt your opponent just run Sin Collector or Duress.
Or gain an actual card advantage by playing Mind Rot, which is terrible.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
By: Ashton Johnson
Standard Silver TCQ - Huntsville, TX - 10/5/13Type II
Archive: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1162918
Main Deck:
1 Abhorrent Overlord
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Corrupt
4 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Read the Bones
1 Rescue from the Underworld
3 Thoughtseize
2 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
23 Swamp
Sideboard:
2 Devour Flesh
3 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Gift of Orzhova
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Pack Rat
1 Rescue from the Underworld
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
check out this decklist
I'll go through each of your points in order.
#1: Disciple won't be coming down earlier than turn four. You would ideally be having at least two devotion before you play the card, sometimes even three or four. If your opponent has seven cards in hand on turn four, then you're probably in a good position anyways, so it doesn't even matter. And, I know it might be confusing, but you have more than one option to play on turn four. You don't HAVE TO drop a Disciple on Turn four. There's lots of other cards in this deck and if you're playing this card statically, you're going to lose and that's not the decks fault.
#2: Sure, the 1/3 body is not impressive. We don't play the card for it's 1/3 body. And your example with the Boon Satyr? I don't see how that's ever an issue. The deck can deal with a measly four damage, and the Disciple can block any of the other 2/x's that the green player had dropped earlier. Don't forget, Gray Merchant easily drops down for 8+ life drain VERY easily in this deck. Aggro decks have a very hard time against this deck.
#3: Disciple of Phenax helps the game plan by having a powerful ETB effect. Liliana's Reaver has to connect with the opponent to have an effect. In Standard, you tell me which one is better. I'll give you a hint: it's the one that could eat a Supreme Verdict and still have been useful.
Also, stop comparing Disciple to Duress and Sin Collector. They don't fill the same roles, and they don't do the same job. Sure, you see their hand, but that's not the only reason we play Disciple. Stop analyzing Disciple in a vacuum and look at the bigger picture.
EDIT: Let me just add a little bit more about point #1. What I'm saying is that if you're playing a naked Disciple for two devotion on turn four, then that's a player error, not a problem with the deck. This deck builds on itself, and Disciple isn't a card that's supposed to be played by itself. Even with that in mind, it could be turn 12, your opponent has two cards in hand, and even then, playing Disciple for Devotion 2 is still a great play and nothing to ignore.
Not relevant. Mind Rot is an entirely different card. Just because two cards say "discard" in the text doesn't mean that they fill the same role.
You admitting that playing Disciple turn 4 is a bad play just makes your point weaker. That means that he is pretty much useless without support from the rest of the deck.
Yes, he adds devotion, so do a ton of other cards, like some of the ones Twicky_Kid mentioned.
This is a competitive forum, you agreed to the fact that you would be discussing only competitive cards in this forum. Everyone in this thread besides you and your 'friend' have come to a consensus that Disciple of Phenax is not a competitive card, and your main argument of 'just play it' is not leading to valuable discussion nor is anyone changing their mind.
If you want to discuss janky cards you really should not have posted this in the competitive(established) subforum.
Username: Cabz
I did not admit that playing Disciple on Turn 4 is a bad play. I said playing a Turn 4 Disciple with no Devotion on board can potentially be a bad play. I have no earthly idea how you got that from "What I'm saying is that if you're playing a naked Disciple for two devotion on turn four, then that's a player error, not a problem with the deck." I've personally have never played a Disciple and not seen the opponents entire hand. That's called making smart plays. This isn't an aggro deck where you just slam cards down: you have to think about the decisions you make.
Do you think I haven't tried playing other cards? Disciple of Phenax wasn't even on my list of cards to play for a while. I even had wrote him off myself till I saw it in play, and it changed my mind entirely.
And that's just false about only me and Balluka defending it. There has been two other posters in here saying that Disciple is more than it appears, and one of them even including an excerpt from LSV that says that Disciple is a solid card in a devotion based deck. (Here's the link: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/theros-set-review-black/)
I'm not here to discuss a single card. I'm here to discuss a strong, competitive deck that has multiple different versions making appearances all over. I just so happen to believe that Disciple of Phenax most definitely fits in this deck and is not a detriment to the decks success in any way, shape, or form.
Did you even see the top 8 this weekend? Boon Satyr was every where. Wolfir Avenger was tech in a lot of decks last standard. The guy was a true powerhouse. Boon Satyr is even better. If you think this is a card you are not going to run into over and over again though the next 4 months well......I'm sorry we are living in different worlds.
It is ok to have pet cards or even a 1-2 but to have 3 pages of you defending this crappy card is doing a true disservice to the thread. While we are discussing how ****ty this card is we are not improving the deck.