UA Lives, I'll try to be more explicit about it this time; do not reply to my posts: I do not value your input in the slightest, and will not read your replies.
Good points Sabre. I'm not certain whether that outweighs the utility of using Duress and Dissolve instead, but I'll keep it in mind when play testing.
Here's my maindeck and my sideboard. I'm posting my MB because you really can't get an effective handle on the SB's effectiveness without seeing what's going on it the main. I'm also new to this Esper, so if I'm missing some important cards please let me know.
I'm going to play a standard event today to test this sideboard plan out. Here are my reasons for each choice.
3 Gainsay - Pretty self explanitory and standard. It's great against mono blue, can be used in control mirrors against blue counters, and is just a solid card. I like 3 because it's so potent in those matchups. I don't want 4 because I want to spread myself out to gain advantages in tougher matchups.
2 Doom Blade - Good removal against anything not black. I'll typically side this in any creature based deck not running black creatures.
1 Shrivel - My spicy tech I'm trying out. I really want to try 2 to increase my odds of drawing it though to see if it's as awesome as I think it will be. What matchup do I want this? W/R or White Weenie of course! By my count, most lists run 16-18 1 toughness creatures. These lists also run boros charm and brave the elements to trump removal. BUT! If I'm correct, Shrivel gets through both Brave the Elements AND Boros Charm. Indestructible means nothing if creatures have 0 toughness, and protection stops the following: targeting (shrivel does not target), enchanting (N/A), damage (-1/-1 is not damage), or blocking (N/A).
2 Sin Collector - Good against control decks as a source of CA while getting information. It seems solid with my anti-control plan being to switch to being the beatdown and using SoP, Blood Baron, and this guy to punish my opponent for siding out most of his removal.
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa - An extra Blood Baron for mono-black and control. Industry standard; could be two if I'd like to have a better mono-black matchup.
3 Soldier of the Pantheon - Good against those fast aggro decks, specifically G/R using BTE. Gain some life and block all day? Sounds good to me! Also want to use him against control in mirrors.
2 Master of Waves - Spicy Tech #2. I know what the criticism likely will be; without many permanents, this guy is just two 2/1s for 4 mana. I think that against mono-red, that might be worth it. It can effectively act as extra verdicts, blocking things all day and likely killing a creature when the player swings in. And if you have a detention sphere on the field, it's three 2/1s. In my eyes, it's a good source of card advantage and can give you a few turns and take out a few of the mono red player's cards.
1 Pithing Needle - Industry standard. Good card is good.
I plan on playing this tonight no matter what, but please let me know what you think so I can adjust for a bigger tourney on saturday if needed!
I've been running Profit // Loss in the SB to great effect, I like the ability to pump BBoV or Elspeth tokens occasionally and being able to cast at instant speed.
I've been running Profit // Loss in the SB to great effect, I like the ability to pump BBoV or Elspeth tokens occasionally and being able to cast at instant speed.
If Loss was 2cc this card would be amazing. I been running Shrivel in my sideboard for some time. It is amazing against Boros and good agaisnt sligh rdw and ok against rakdos. You really want the -1/-1 effect by turn two against must decks since aggros turn 3 attack is what puts you in the danger zone. The only time Shrivel has not performed is against cackler into burning tree emmissary hands but those are just nut hands that our deck just won't ever beat.
My understanding is that:
-You dont want to sideboard out the land against aggro.
The additional land is so that we dont need to shock ourself as often. It is okay to sideboard out a land against tempo decks like mono blue/Gr. Depends on your manabase and what you are boarding into.
You want to be sideboarding out the land again mono black because this game is a war of attrition, and with all the discard effects we obviously would like a greater density of spells.
So, I think this discussion is really interesting, in terms of bringing new ideas to the table to be discussed.
Shrivel actually surprised as I hadn't considered the card at all, and it may have it's uses, although I think it's a bit too narrow as most aggro decks also pack 1 and 2 cmc drops that have 2 resistance. Also, if you're packing SotP on the sideboard as well, you really don't want to rely on -1-1 to all creatures as sorcery removal, since it will also kill your own blockers. If it were an instant, it would be that much better, as it could complement SotP to remove creatures with up to 3 resistance. As it stands, I don't like it all that much.
SotP I think is a really really good card against aggro, and I've recently started using 3 in the SB. Initially I didn't really like him, and I still don't like him all that much against control as proposed by some players (I pack 3 in the SB and don't think I'll consider siding it in against control), but I've realized from testing that against aggro he's just that good. An opening hand with 1 or more almost effectively guarantees that you'll be able to stabilize the board.
I've been testing 2 fiendslayer paladins on the SB as well. They're extremely good against basically any aggro deck I can think of. They are a wall that stops most of their creatures, can't be dealt with as they usually only pack R spot removal and can also go on the aggressive, netting you life gain, if you've managed to clear the field before dropping him.
Yes it is narrow only deck it shuts down is white weenie since it kills almost all their creatures. I was suggesting it ove profit//loss since the effect is better turn 2 than turn 3 but I would not run neither.
Sotp is the best all around hyper aggro hate across the board and shuts down the hands that gives us the most problems which are rakdos cackler and burning tree starts. I like fiendslayer after a supreme verdict but blood baron does the same thing but better after verdict.
A card I have been really been liking against aggro as a 2 of is Sin Collector. He sets up Verdict nicely by ripping Boros Charm or a burn spells from non white aggro while saving you a few points of damage.
I didn't even think about siding out a shock, I love it. Watery Grave is by no means needed against aggro, and I shall start siding this out in replace of a Duress. Aggro has a large number of non-creature spells, so seems solid enough. Maybe I'll need to change my 75 if Duress ends up being underwhelming.
There isn't enough valid targets against Mono Black and Blue to make Sin Collector good against them.
I didn't even think about siding out a shock, I love it. Watery Grave is by no means needed against aggro, and I shall start siding this out in replace of a Duress. Aggro has a large number of non-creature spells, so seems solid enough. Maybe I'll need to change my 75 if Duress ends up being underwhelming.
There isn't enough valid targets against Mono Black and Blue to make Sin Collector good against them.
Against blue, game 2, you can hit quite a number of things. They'll usually board in a number of counters.
Not sure exactly why that video should be educational on that subject? ^^'
Paladin didn't do jack, because the other deck happened to have a chandra to drop on the table. Otherwise, it would've locked down his game. There were very very few outs for him. He had one of'em. Tough luck
I think the video illustrates exactly why Fiendslayer is a poor sideboard card.
That video shows how Fiendslayer Paladin performs against the SLOW version of mono red. The Red player had plenty of outs. Mortars, Fanatic of Mogis, Stormbreath Dragon, Chandra all win on the spot. Cards like Chandras Phoenix, Hammer of Purphoros are effecively game over aswell.
NOW, think about if that Fiendslayer Paladin was a doom blade/ last breath/ Soldier of Pantheon. The game would have been much more in favour of Esper.
All these cards are significantly better sideboard options against aggro.
A doomblade in that situation would not have saved a lost game already. Down to 11 life, with 8 power on the table, of which he could only resolve 4, and with a chandra landing on the battlefield, with his hand, it was lost.
Against such a start, the 2 CMC removal would've simply killed a BTE T2 had he decided to shock on T2, instead of T3, or kill a BTE on T3, and take 2 less damage from the mogis, but still remain at a very bad spot.
The game would not have been 'A lost game already' if you had removal. Just take some time to think about how the game would play out.
You would shock and play the doom blade/ last breath turn 2 on BTE. Opponent would not have been able to cast the Mogis turn 3, so you would take 2 damage from a BTE attack and be on 16 life, not 11.
The opponent would have 2 power on the table, not 8. Removal significantly sets back devotion decks. The opponent may not even have a 4th land (we cannot be sure, he has 3 cards in hand when the game ends). If he does not have a 4th land, he will be unable to cast Mogis and Chandra, leaving us in a favourable position to win the match.
Mortars would not have been an out because the monoR player only had 5 mana, even with access to nykthos. Stormbreath Dragon would've meant a full out attack, sacrificing fanatic, to leave Paul Cheon at 3, and not at 0. Another fanatic would've basically meant game, with either a doomblade, or a last breath, or whatever other spot removal instead of the paladin. But it would still have left Paul at 1, and not at 0. Pheonix would've left Paul at 5. Hammer wouldn't have affected the table at all, coming down on that turn instead of chandra..
Either of these "outs" you mention, where substantially less effective with a paladin on the table, instead of a doomblade in hand. The paladin would mean at least 2 more life back on the next turn by attacking before sweeping, and that's if you didn't draw some sort of spot removal that would've allowed you to keep the paladin on defense while dealing with another attacker, and effectively stopping your opp's game short.
Chandra was the only out that actually won the monoR player the game right there, and he had it. Now, if he didn't, the paladin, very much unlike the doom blade, would've turned the game easily. Having a 2/2 first strike blocker with lifelink, effectively killing a creature each turn and gaining you two life, will very easily put your opp into a situation in which he can't afford to outright attack, and will buy you much more time than a single spot removal will. And it's not hard for the paladin to stick around against aggro decks who basically only pack R or B removal.
By playing with Fiendslayer Paladin, Paul was immediately dead to the following:
- Mortars + BTE / Land. Opponent could have easily held land/BTE in hand as he did not need to play them turn4 to win the game.
- Fanatic + attack with all creatures
- Chandra Pyromancer
You are correct that Storm Breath doesnt immediately kill Paul, it does drop him to 2 life, not 3.
Cards like Hammer/Phoneix dont immediately kill Paul, but they put him with basically zero chance to win as after a supreme verdict he will just die to haste creatures / Burn + Phoenix.
It's really not a good example to show how paladin should not be reliable against aggro, IMO.
You seem to ignore the most important reasons to run removal spells over blockers in todays standard format, which is to keep opponents off devotion.
The board would have never gotten to that point if Paul removed a Burning Tree Emissary. Nythkos would not have been able to pump out Mogis and Chandra. Mogis would have done significantly less damage upon resolving (if our opponent even had sufficient mana to cast him).
I really dont see how you can try to make an argument that Fiendslayer Paladin is even remotely as good as removal against a meta filled with devotion decks.
Well, the thing is that I'm not advocating that fiendslayer is better than removal against heavy devotion decks. I'm saying he's very good against aggro decks, in general. Most of these are not based on devotion, at all.
That list Paul was playing against was a slower, devotion list. Not RDW. And it got a very good start, for a very slow starting hand on Paul's side. It was a very iffy keep against an aggro deck, with 3 temples and a shock, no T2 play, no way to cast verdict on T4 as well as playing his only T3 card, and having 2 draw spells in hand to boot. The monoR player though, he had T2 four power on the table + 4 devotion, T3 one extra mana for 5 ETB dmg and T4 PW that happened to deal with a very difficult creature to deal with for his deck.
Don't blame the paladin when you keep a hand like that in such a situation. Of course he'll be too late if you just plan on doing nothing until you land him and by shocking yourself on top of that.
The fact that you need to distinguish between Red devotion and RDW makes Fiendslayer even weaker as a number of red devotion decks sideboard into a more aggressive version against Esper. Similarly, some of the explosive red decks play Fanatic of Mogis. On the draw vs decks such as Rakdos and Wr Aggro, Fiendslayer Paladin is often going to be too slow. Wr Aggro can just Brave the elements their way past him.
I agree that on the play, if you have a manabase that can support double white on turn 3, if your opponent is not running any devotion, Fiendslayer would be good to bring in against aggro decks. But that is too narrow. I would much rather run Doom Blades/ Soldier of Pantheons which are strong on both the play and draw and are good in a larger variety of matchups.
I have previously tested Fiendslayer and came to these conclusions. There are plenty of games where your opponent already has Boros Reckoner/Ash Zealot/Chandras Phoenix on the board. If you are having success then by all means continue to run him,
This is, Fiendslayer is a relatively slow card vs. the decks that it wants to come in against. Soldier of the Pantheon fills the same role, is a fair bit weaker but so much cheaper. In the match up posted, villain would not have been able to swing with those Burning Tree Emissaries.
Also goes to show why Divination sucks against aggro.
Thanks for posting this video kirbyzero. The video is a extreme example of how bad the Paladin is but it highlights the flaws the very nicely. I already shared my views on a few of the other esper threads and I think the Fiendslayer Paladin is a pretty terrible and narrow sb card. It looks like there are a lot of new players that are just picking the deck up and realizing how poor the match up is vs RDWs so they're trying to find some good sb cards for the match up. I agree that more removal is better than the Paladin. The removal should of course should be complimented with Blood Barons.
The card can't attack profitably unless it's into an empty board for fear of it dying so the lifelink is next to useless. Also, our mana base isn't set up to be casting WW spells turn 3 unless you're willing to pay life for it and has anti synergies with Supreme Verdict not only dying to it but taking up precious lands that come into play untapped which was highlighted in the video.
Good points Sabre. I'm not certain whether that outweighs the utility of using Duress and Dissolve instead, but I'll keep it in mind when play testing.
Here's my maindeck and my sideboard. I'm posting my MB because you really can't get an effective handle on the SB's effectiveness without seeing what's going on it the main. I'm also new to this Esper, so if I'm missing some important cards please let me know.
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 AEtherling
Spells (25)
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Detention Sphere
3 Azorius Charm
3 Dissolve
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Divination
2 Thoughtseize
1 Devour Flesh
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Land (27)
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Watery Grave
3 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Deceit
5 Island
4 Plains
3 Gainsay
2 Doom Blade
1 Shrivel
2 Sin Collector
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Soldier of the Pantheon
2 Master of Waves
1 Pithing Needle
I'm going to play a standard event today to test this sideboard plan out. Here are my reasons for each choice.
3 Gainsay - Pretty self explanitory and standard. It's great against mono blue, can be used in control mirrors against blue counters, and is just a solid card. I like 3 because it's so potent in those matchups. I don't want 4 because I want to spread myself out to gain advantages in tougher matchups.
2 Doom Blade - Good removal against anything not black. I'll typically side this in any creature based deck not running black creatures.
1 Shrivel - My spicy tech I'm trying out. I really want to try 2 to increase my odds of drawing it though to see if it's as awesome as I think it will be. What matchup do I want this? W/R or White Weenie of course! By my count, most lists run 16-18 1 toughness creatures. These lists also run boros charm and brave the elements to trump removal. BUT! If I'm correct, Shrivel gets through both Brave the Elements AND Boros Charm. Indestructible means nothing if creatures have 0 toughness, and protection stops the following: targeting (shrivel does not target), enchanting (N/A), damage (-1/-1 is not damage), or blocking (N/A).
2 Sin Collector - Good against control decks as a source of CA while getting information. It seems solid with my anti-control plan being to switch to being the beatdown and using SoP, Blood Baron, and this guy to punish my opponent for siding out most of his removal.
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa - An extra Blood Baron for mono-black and control. Industry standard; could be two if I'd like to have a better mono-black matchup.
3 Soldier of the Pantheon - Good against those fast aggro decks, specifically G/R using BTE. Gain some life and block all day? Sounds good to me! Also want to use him against control in mirrors.
2 Master of Waves - Spicy Tech #2. I know what the criticism likely will be; without many permanents, this guy is just two 2/1s for 4 mana. I think that against mono-red, that might be worth it. It can effectively act as extra verdicts, blocking things all day and likely killing a creature when the player swings in. And if you have a detention sphere on the field, it's three 2/1s. In my eyes, it's a good source of card advantage and can give you a few turns and take out a few of the mono red player's cards.
1 Pithing Needle - Industry standard. Good card is good.
I plan on playing this tonight no matter what, but please let me know what you think so I can adjust for a bigger tourney on saturday if needed!
If Loss was 2cc this card would be amazing. I been running Shrivel in my sideboard for some time. It is amazing against Boros and good agaisnt sligh rdw and ok against rakdos. You really want the -1/-1 effect by turn two against must decks since aggros turn 3 attack is what puts you in the danger zone. The only time Shrivel has not performed is against cackler into burning tree emmissary hands but those are just nut hands that our deck just won't ever beat.
I don't think it's worth it to side out the land against aggro. The extra basic is useful in not shocking ourselves.
I'm also currently siding a land against Gr. I'm quite sure it's best against Mono B, but not sure about Gr.
-You dont want to sideboard out the land against aggro.
The additional land is so that we dont need to shock ourself as often. It is okay to sideboard out a land against tempo decks like mono blue/Gr. Depends on your manabase and what you are boarding into.
You want to be sideboarding out the land again mono black because this game is a war of attrition, and with all the discard effects we obviously would like a greater density of spells.
Yes it is narrow only deck it shuts down is white weenie since it kills almost all their creatures. I was suggesting it ove profit//loss since the effect is better turn 2 than turn 3 but I would not run neither.
Sotp is the best all around hyper aggro hate across the board and shuts down the hands that gives us the most problems which are rakdos cackler and burning tree starts. I like fiendslayer after a supreme verdict but blood baron does the same thing but better after verdict.
A card I have been really been liking against aggro as a 2 of is Sin Collector. He sets up Verdict nicely by ripping Boros Charm or a burn spells from non white aggro while saving you a few points of damage.
There isn't enough valid targets against Mono Black and Blue to make Sin Collector good against them.
Against blue, game 2, you can hit quite a number of things. They'll usually board in a number of counters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL04lbfeNAaS8-USJdIft3WIv6EBSdeCpQ&v=FGT3Al1vj6g
I think the video illustrates exactly why Fiendslayer is a poor sideboard card.
That video shows how Fiendslayer Paladin performs against the SLOW version of mono red. The Red player had plenty of outs. Mortars, Fanatic of Mogis, Stormbreath Dragon, Chandra all win on the spot. Cards like Chandras Phoenix, Hammer of Purphoros are effecively game over aswell.
NOW, think about if that Fiendslayer Paladin was a doom blade/ last breath/ Soldier of Pantheon. The game would have been much more in favour of Esper.
All these cards are significantly better sideboard options against aggro.
The game would not have been 'A lost game already' if you had removal. Just take some time to think about how the game would play out.
You would shock and play the doom blade/ last breath turn 2 on BTE. Opponent would not have been able to cast the Mogis turn 3, so you would take 2 damage from a BTE attack and be on 16 life, not 11.
The opponent would have 2 power on the table, not 8. Removal significantly sets back devotion decks. The opponent may not even have a 4th land (we cannot be sure, he has 3 cards in hand when the game ends). If he does not have a 4th land, he will be unable to cast Mogis and Chandra, leaving us in a favourable position to win the match.
By playing with Fiendslayer Paladin, Paul was immediately dead to the following:
- Mortars + BTE / Land. Opponent could have easily held land/BTE in hand as he did not need to play them turn4 to win the game.
- Fanatic + attack with all creatures
- Chandra Pyromancer
You are correct that Storm Breath doesnt immediately kill Paul, it does drop him to 2 life, not 3.
Cards like Hammer/Phoneix dont immediately kill Paul, but they put him with basically zero chance to win as after a supreme verdict he will just die to haste creatures / Burn + Phoenix.
You seem to ignore the most important reasons to run removal spells over blockers in todays standard format, which is to keep opponents off devotion.
The board would have never gotten to that point if Paul removed a Burning Tree Emissary. Nythkos would not have been able to pump out Mogis and Chandra. Mogis would have done significantly less damage upon resolving (if our opponent even had sufficient mana to cast him).
I really dont see how you can try to make an argument that Fiendslayer Paladin is even remotely as good as removal against a meta filled with devotion decks.
The fact that you need to distinguish between Red devotion and RDW makes Fiendslayer even weaker as a number of red devotion decks sideboard into a more aggressive version against Esper. Similarly, some of the explosive red decks play Fanatic of Mogis. On the draw vs decks such as Rakdos and Wr Aggro, Fiendslayer Paladin is often going to be too slow. Wr Aggro can just Brave the elements their way past him.
I agree that on the play, if you have a manabase that can support double white on turn 3, if your opponent is not running any devotion, Fiendslayer would be good to bring in against aggro decks. But that is too narrow. I would much rather run Doom Blades/ Soldier of Pantheons which are strong on both the play and draw and are good in a larger variety of matchups.
I have previously tested Fiendslayer and came to these conclusions. There are plenty of games where your opponent already has Boros Reckoner/Ash Zealot/Chandras Phoenix on the board. If you are having success then by all means continue to run him,
Also goes to show why Divination sucks against aggro.
Thanks for posting this video kirbyzero. The video is a extreme example of how bad the Paladin is but it highlights the flaws the very nicely. I already shared my views on a few of the other esper threads and I think the Fiendslayer Paladin is a pretty terrible and narrow sb card. It looks like there are a lot of new players that are just picking the deck up and realizing how poor the match up is vs RDWs so they're trying to find some good sb cards for the match up. I agree that more removal is better than the Paladin. The removal should of course should be complimented with Blood Barons.
The card can't attack profitably unless it's into an empty board for fear of it dying so the lifelink is next to useless. Also, our mana base isn't set up to be casting WW spells turn 3 unless you're willing to pay life for it and has anti synergies with Supreme Verdict not only dying to it but taking up precious lands that come into play untapped which was highlighted in the video.
Good vs.
Firedrinker Satyr
Rakdos Cackler
Burning-Tree Emissary
Magma Jet
Lightning Strike
Losses to the other half of their deck:
Ash Zealot
Firefist Striker
Chandra's Phoenix
Boros Reckoner
Fanatic of Mogis (damage is done when he comes into play)
SB Chandra, Pyromaster
SB Hammer of Purphoros