See Vampire Lacerator. If we needed a first drop to deal some damage, we'd have one.
5 Mana for a Disfigure on a stick... Dunno, that doesn't compare to the Master at all. He grants board position and is less restrictive in terms of spending mana on him.
That's nine mana spent on him. Besides, depending on the amount of creatures you're running, Vampires is already at the point that baiting removal from more important threats isn't even relevant anymore.
Suffer the Past? If you wanted a SB card gainst Open the Vaults or something, Bojuka Bog would do better. Aside ffrom that, it seems like a more restricted Consume Spirit
1) I should have rephrased my first point. GDA is a possible early beater which can control the field later...
2)GDA and Master of the Wild Hunt both have their ups and downs. GDA has more potential, although GDA does lack board control in terms of not being able to create tokens, I think it really does depend on the situation because GDA is alot more flexible.
3)Yes but GDA is again, more flexible, as it is a 1 to cast bait. Compared to nighthawk's and nocturnus's...
4)Yes it costs 9 mana to pump GDA. However, starting at level 2 GDA is able to control the field and land restrictions (through bad hands) makes GDA a more playable choice.
5)I play red/back vamps and Suffer the Past would be a awesome topdeck to finish the game.
I just think GDA will be the sleeper rare that vamp players need...
So, decisions so far have been to main deck 4x Inquisition of Kozilek.
Discussion still over what to do with Arrogant Bloodlord.
I am still thinking about the new Atog with Fetchlands and Swamps and Bloodghast for a +6/+6 pump if Bloodghast is already in play. It's at least a +4/+4 pump with Bloodghast and a fetchland, and that's not terrible in an early aggressive build. That's five damage on turn 3, but no other board presence. Maybe something to threaten in the mid-game? But that seems like Highborn would be better in that position. It bears a bit more study.
Consume the Meek seems to have replaced Marsh Casualties. I actually disagree with this move, since you just need to clean out the weenies, and mop up with Consuming Vapors. The best card vs. GSS is Inquisition of Kozilek, and the second best is Consuming Vapors. Mass Smother is actually bad for Vamps, since it destroys our board position.
What would make GDA playable is if he disfigured at level 1, or if his level up cost was B... He is too mana intensive.
Drana and Bloodwitch are good as a 2-2 split. Drana controls the field, and bloodwitch does her thing. Drana also swings for game when she sticks. Simply delicious.
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I like your counters Luminis, but I could easily argue further, its just i think its pointless as only time will tell. In proxy games against mythic bant, jund etc using post RoE vamps, GDA always performs well for me.
I like Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. I think she's a good 1 of card. Play 2 Bloodwitches and her probably. She's pretty incredible in my opinion.
Inquisition of Kozilek competes with Duress, Mire's Toll etc. for that spot. I actually think it's much better than Duress for Vampires. I would very strongly consider maindecking it.
Consume the Meek seems hard to judge. It probably swaps with Mind Sludge or something depending on matchup. Killing your guys isn't such a bad thing as an instant. Also if you have a Highborn out and are sitting on enough mana (probably rare) you'll get a little benefit with it. It will replace Marsh Casualties at least i'd say. Whether it deserves a maindeck slot or not is the big question. Hard to say how good it'll be.
Consuming Vapors is a cool card, however it's not Tendrils of Corruption. It's a LOT better than Tendrills against UB Control as it can kill their shroud sphinxes, walls etc. and you get a heap of life from them. It's probably a sideboard card.
I like Suffer The Past. I like that it's an Instant, I don't like that it requires graveyard and that it can't hit creatures. Would definitely consider playing in MBC.
The SB is made in haste, I didn't think about it so much... I't probably horrible
I MBed Marsh casualties to remove all the threats to Bloodlord, in fact it kills only Bloodghast (which is'nt a real kill) and Hexmage, of which I'm not even sure to MB
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anyone thought about Nirkana Cutthroat? personally i love this card. relatively easy to level and doesn't have that many levels to go to reach the full effect.
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anyone thought about Nirkana Cutthroat? personally i love this card. relatively easy to level and doesn't have that many levels to go to reach the full effect.
nah, were even having problem running kalastria highborne bcoz we rarely have free mana, why would we want an idiot that need to level up for deathtouch when we already have nighthawk?
id say just stick to the better version of vamps rather than 'i think this is cool but its very costly' vamps, unless ur just makin a fun version of the deck.
if ur makin control it might be a slightly different story, but still would u have enough mana n turns to level him up?? or would u just wait til nirkana revenant come out 1st to get easy mana?? if im the enemy, id shoot the revenant 1st anytime
I MBed Marsh casualties to remove all the threats to Bloodlord, in fact it kills only Bloodghast (which is'nt a real kill) and Hexmage, of which I'm not even sure to MB
Marsh Casualties doesn't hit your creatures, I think you're thinking of Infest
For the control version of vamps, do you guys think it would be more viable to run 2 - 3 Tectonic Edge since the only 2 cards that would be harder to drop with them are Bloodghast and Gatekeeper of Malikir? There is still the problem of it weakening tendrills and mind sludge though.
And also, for control version again, Could Arrogant Bloodlord Replace Bloodghast? Seems like if we do, hitting for 6 on turn 4 with a nocturnus on the field would be awesome. I am not sure though just because bloodghast keeps on comming back for the ultimate beat down
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For the control version of vamps, do you guys think it would be more viable to run 2 - 3 Tectonic Edge since the only 2 cards that would be harder to drop with them are Bloodghast and Gatekeeper of Malikir? There is still the problem of it weakening tendrills and mind sludge though.
And also, for control version again, Could Arrogant Bloodlord Replace Bloodghast? Seems like if we do, hitting for 6 on turn 4 with a nocturnus on the field would be awesome. I am not sure though just because bloodghast keeps on comming back for the ultimate beat down
I would say no; Bloodghast is not replaceable with Arrogant Bloodlord. They're different creatures with different capabilities. I'm running both.
Any thoughts on the tech edge deal? I replaced UtF with Smother because its not BB. I'm only puttin in 2 tec edge though, but with grim discovery, it is not too bad. Yet to have a problem with Gatekeeper, but I think it will happen.
Yeah, bloodghast is better in my build right now. Seems a little more controlling making their removal pointless
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Any thoughts on the tech edge deal? I replaced UtF with Smother because its not BB. I'm only puttin in 2 tec edge though, but with grim discovery, it is not too bad. Yet to have a problem with Gatekeeper, but I think it will happen.
Yeah, bloodghast is better in my build right now. Seems a little more controlling making their removal pointless
For the control version of vamps, do you guys think it would be more viable to run 2 - 3 Tectonic Edge since the only 2 cards that would be harder to drop with them are Bloodghast and Gatekeeper of Malikir? There is still the problem of it weakening tendrills and mind sludge though.
And also, for control version again, Could Arrogant Bloodlord Replace Bloodghast? Seems like if we do, hitting for 6 on turn 4 with a nocturnus on the field would be awesome. I am not sure though just because bloodghast keeps on comming back for the ultimate beat down
i thought the main thing u want for control is controlling the game, not swinging for 6 on turn 4...........
i'd say if u want to make control, just go with the very high amount of removal spells and take nirkana revenant with kalitas and drana. nirkana revenat doubles ur mana pool, making it easy to cast speels and using drana's ability, and kalitas easily shoots any1 in ur way as well while making minions for u. I'd say consume the meek is the card for vamp control, as the high-end of the vamps are safe and powerful when theyre already out anyway.
The only problem im having here is that lightmine field and gideon in eldrazi. any idea what to do with them? i still haven't seen any anti-enchantment or the likes for black.
if ur makin control it might be a slightly different story, but still would u have enough mana n turns to level him up?? or would u just wait til nirkana revenant come out 1st to get easy mana?? if im the enemy, id shoot the revenant 1st anytime
well, i do do control. and the revenant is going in to. also consume spirits, lol. and when they remove the cutthroat, i get to keep something like a nighthawk. and if they dont, i get a 5/4 first strike, deathtouch.
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So is there any consensus on Arrogant Bloodlord? I hear a bunch of people say they are running him and a bunch of people say he sucks... what's the overall feeling? Worth it? Not worth it? And if you do run him, what are you pulling out?
It's not that I don't like him, it just in our standard builds I don't see a creature that is "worse" than him to pull out.
not worth it. i know of at least 3 regular players who are working on defender decks, another 5 who are doing eldrazi (my self included) and the rest are doing their normal. and seeing as how we only have a regular grouping of like 15-20, it is complete trash, at least in my area.
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He works best as a 1 drop, though if used correctly in the late-game, he can be quite effective as well. That said, I feel he's strictly a sideboard card, as he loses quite a bit of luster against strategies that don't rely solely on their creatures, or that pack a heavy non-PTE removal package.
A T1 GDA against creature heavy strategies ala Bant, Allies, elfdrazi, the Mirror, WW, Boros, and Naya is a must-answer threat. They have, in essence, two choices:
- Kill GDA before it gets to L2 (within their first 3 turns)
- Continue with their normal game plan
If they pick the former, you're both more-or-less on the same page, as they (likely) gave up the chance to drop an early dude to get rid of GDA. It might even get you the upper hand, as you'll be able to cast Tendrils or Nighthawk on par with their early beaters, rather than let them have a chance to hit you a couple of times first.
The latter means you have an insane ammount of board control. You'll be able to kill off everything you can hit with disfigure, while having a 2/2 body that ensures you can kill 3/3's without losing your blocker, or trade with 4/4's. If your opponent cannot deal with him before he hits L4, you win the game, plain and simple.
Consuming Vapors is not good for Vamps (needs sweeper support). Arrogant bloodlord is bad. Drana isn't good for vamps (good for control).
Inquisition should be maindecked. Nothing else helps vamps, nor deserves even a sideboard slot from RoE. I love this set, but it hardly did anything for vamps.
Consuming Vapors is not good for Vamps (needs sweeper support). Arrogant bloodlord is bad. Drana isn't good for vamps (good for control).
Inquisition should be maindecked. Nothing else helps vamps, nor deserves even a sideboard slot from RoE. I love this set, but it hardly did anything for vamps.
You do little in explaining your reasoning for any of this. This deck will only get better if we work together and at least state whats behind decisions and statements like yours.
Well I explained Consuming Vapors. Arrogant Bloodlord is coming into a meta where walls will be more popular and weak tokens will be more popular. Sure he is two more power than whatever you replaced, but at too much of a drawback. Even if he didn't have the drawback, he wouldn't be an automatic 4 of. Just because he is bigger than all the bears we use, people are overhyping him. Sure the drawback is non-existent when we swing with Nocturnus out, but the extra 2 damage isn't a big deal.
Bloodwitch is only good because of the pro-white effect. Drana is just as weak, and the ability isn't amazing. It can't be used until the turn after she is played, and this kind of slow play is fit for control, not vamps. The games shouldn't really be lasting that long. Bloodwitch is better in all white deck matchups, neither is useful vs RDW, and vs Jund, neither should be used since we can't live long enough and even if we did, we run into Broodmates.
Inquisition always makes any deck discard on turn one, and we have no turn one play. Nuff said. It removes nearly all of RDW and WW, and it can really mess up naya, bant and Jund. Obviously it helps vs control decks as well. It is even great in mirror. It is even better post sideboard when they bring out black hate like GSS, WK, and DL, so at a minimum, it has to be in the sideboard, but I would really recommend main deck. Plus I love to know what my opponent is holding. It makes the game so much easier.
Vamps vs non-control, non-white decks
T1 Inquisition/Duress
T2 2 cmc creature
T3 3 cmc creature
T4 2 cmc creature + removal/2 cmc creature
T5 Mind sludge/Nocturnus/Tendrils or 3 cmc creature + removal/ 2 cmc creature
T6 Nocturnus/whatever else you are holding
There really isn't room for Drana. I don't even maindeck Mind Sludge, and I still don't have room for Drana. MBC yes, Vamps no.
Well I explained Consuming Vapors. Arrogant Bloodlord is coming into a meta where walls will be more popular and weak tokens will be more popular. Sure he is two more power than whatever you replaced, but at too much of a drawback. Even if he didn't have the drawback, he wouldn't be an automatic 4 of. Just because he is bigger than all the bears we use, people are overhyping him. Sure the drawback is non-existent when we swing with Nocturnus out, but the extra 2 damage isn't a big deal.
Bloodwitch is only good because of the pro-white effect. Drana is just as weak, and the ability isn't amazing. It can't be used until the turn after she is played, and this kind of slow play is fit for control, not vamps. The games shouldn't really be lasting that long. Bloodwitch is better in all white deck matchups, neither is useful vs RDW, and vs Jund, neither should be used since we can't live long enough and even if we did, we run into Broodmates.
Inquisition always makes any deck discard on turn one, and we have no turn one play. Nuff said.
I pretty much agree with everything you said. Except that if he didn't have the drawback, i think he would be an automatic 4-of. I am curious to see if consuming vapors does get tried, although I assume there are just too many worthless creatures to sacrifice to it...
Consuming Vapors is not good for Vamps (needs sweeper support).
Disagree. I think the fact that it has Rebound actually makes it viable. If it was a one-and-done spell, it would be awful. The rebound means that you are getting 2 creatures out of one spell, which means the turn after you play Vapors, you basically know that you are going to get another one of their creatures off the board without tapping for it, allowing you to put out the creatures you want/need. I'll be MBing Consuming Vapors once I get it.
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TBD...
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1) I should have rephrased my first point. GDA is a possible early beater which can control the field later...
2)GDA and Master of the Wild Hunt both have their ups and downs. GDA has more potential, although GDA does lack board control in terms of not being able to create tokens, I think it really does depend on the situation because GDA is alot more flexible.
3)Yes but GDA is again, more flexible, as it is a 1 to cast bait. Compared to nighthawk's and nocturnus's...
4)Yes it costs 9 mana to pump GDA. However, starting at level 2 GDA is able to control the field and land restrictions (through bad hands) makes GDA a more playable choice.
5)I play red/back vamps and Suffer the Past would be a awesome topdeck to finish the game.
I just think GDA will be the sleeper rare that vamp players need...
Discussion still over what to do with Arrogant Bloodlord.
I am still thinking about the new Atog with Fetchlands and Swamps and Bloodghast for a +6/+6 pump if Bloodghast is already in play. It's at least a +4/+4 pump with Bloodghast and a fetchland, and that's not terrible in an early aggressive build. That's five damage on turn 3, but no other board presence. Maybe something to threaten in the mid-game? But that seems like Highborn would be better in that position. It bears a bit more study.
Consume the Meek seems to have replaced Marsh Casualties. I actually disagree with this move, since you just need to clean out the weenies, and mop up with Consuming Vapors. The best card vs. GSS is Inquisition of Kozilek, and the second best is Consuming Vapors. Mass Smother is actually bad for Vamps, since it destroys our board position.
Drana and Bloodwitch are good as a 2-2 split. Drana controls the field, and bloodwitch does her thing. Drana also swings for game when she sticks. Simply delicious.
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I like Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. I think she's a good 1 of card. Play 2 Bloodwitches and her probably. She's pretty incredible in my opinion.
Inquisition of Kozilek competes with Duress, Mire's Toll etc. for that spot. I actually think it's much better than Duress for Vampires. I would very strongly consider maindecking it.
Consume the Meek seems hard to judge. It probably swaps with Mind Sludge or something depending on matchup. Killing your guys isn't such a bad thing as an instant. Also if you have a Highborn out and are sitting on enough mana (probably rare) you'll get a little benefit with it. It will replace Marsh Casualties at least i'd say. Whether it deserves a maindeck slot or not is the big question. Hard to say how good it'll be.
Consuming Vapors is a cool card, however it's not Tendrils of Corruption. It's a LOT better than Tendrills against UB Control as it can kill their shroud sphinxes, walls etc. and you get a heap of life from them. It's probably a sideboard card.
Arrogant Bloodlord is very solid. Would consider swapping out Kalastria Highborn for it or sending Vampire Hexmage to the sideboard.
I like Suffer The Past. I like that it's an Instant, I don't like that it requires graveyard and that it can't hit creatures. Would definitely consider playing in MBC.
So, something like this:
4x bloodghast
4x gatekeeper of malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x arrogant bloodlord
3x Vampire Hexmage
3x Vampire Nocturnus
1x Malakir Bloodwitch
1x Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Marsh Casualties
2x Urge to Feed
3x Sign in Blood
2x Grim Discovery
Lands [23]
4x Marsh Flats
1x Verdant Catacomb
18 Swamps
4x Deathmark
3x Consuming Vapors
1x Malakir Bloodwitch
2x Marsh Casualties
3x Duress
2x Mind Sludge
The SB is made in haste, I didn't think about it so much... I't probably horrible
I MBed Marsh casualties to remove all the threats to Bloodlord, in fact it kills only Bloodghast (which is'nt a real kill) and Hexmage, of which I'm not even sure to MB
Level 2 Judge
nah, were even having problem running kalastria highborne bcoz we rarely have free mana, why would we want an idiot that need to level up for deathtouch when we already have nighthawk?
id say just stick to the better version of vamps rather than 'i think this is cool but its very costly' vamps, unless ur just makin a fun version of the deck.
if ur makin control it might be a slightly different story, but still would u have enough mana n turns to level him up?? or would u just wait til nirkana revenant come out 1st to get easy mana?? if im the enemy, id shoot the revenant 1st anytime
Marsh Casualties doesn't hit your creatures, I think you're thinking of Infest
Oh, you're absolutely right, I confused the two
Level 2 Judge
And also, for control version again, Could Arrogant Bloodlord Replace Bloodghast? Seems like if we do, hitting for 6 on turn 4 with a nocturnus on the field would be awesome. I am not sure though just because bloodghast keeps on comming back for the ultimate beat down
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I would say no; Bloodghast is not replaceable with Arrogant Bloodlord. They're different creatures with different capabilities. I'm running both.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Yeah, bloodghast is better in my build right now. Seems a little more controlling making their removal pointless
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I don't like Tectonic Edge. Blowing up Savage Lands and the like is nice, but I think the gimping it does to Tendrils of Corruption isn't worth it. A turn four Tendrils is too strong.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
i thought the main thing u want for control is controlling the game, not swinging for 6 on turn 4...........
i'd say if u want to make control, just go with the very high amount of removal spells and take nirkana revenant with kalitas and drana. nirkana revenat doubles ur mana pool, making it easy to cast speels and using drana's ability, and kalitas easily shoots any1 in ur way as well while making minions for u. I'd say consume the meek is the card for vamp control, as the high-end of the vamps are safe and powerful when theyre already out anyway.
The only problem im having here is that lightmine field and gideon in eldrazi. any idea what to do with them? i still haven't seen any anti-enchantment or the likes for black.
well, i do do control. and the revenant is going in to. also consume spirits, lol. and when they remove the cutthroat, i get to keep something like a nighthawk. and if they dont, i get a 5/4 first strike, deathtouch.
It's not that I don't like him, it just in our standard builds I don't see a creature that is "worse" than him to pull out.
TBD...
He works best as a 1 drop, though if used correctly in the late-game, he can be quite effective as well. That said, I feel he's strictly a sideboard card, as he loses quite a bit of luster against strategies that don't rely solely on their creatures, or that pack a heavy non-PTE removal package.
A T1 GDA against creature heavy strategies ala Bant, Allies, elfdrazi, the Mirror, WW, Boros, and Naya is a must-answer threat. They have, in essence, two choices:
- Kill GDA before it gets to L2 (within their first 3 turns)
- Continue with their normal game plan
If they pick the former, you're both more-or-less on the same page, as they (likely) gave up the chance to drop an early dude to get rid of GDA. It might even get you the upper hand, as you'll be able to cast Tendrils or Nighthawk on par with their early beaters, rather than let them have a chance to hit you a couple of times first.
The latter means you have an insane ammount of board control. You'll be able to kill off everything you can hit with disfigure, while having a 2/2 body that ensures you can kill 3/3's without losing your blocker, or trade with 4/4's. If your opponent cannot deal with him before he hits L4, you win the game, plain and simple.
BBB Mikaeus, the Unhallowed BBB
UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary UG
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born UB
Consuming vapors is good, Arrogant bloodlord is good, Drana is good. anything else?
My Trading Post
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Inquisition should be maindecked. Nothing else helps vamps, nor deserves even a sideboard slot from RoE. I love this set, but it hardly did anything for vamps.
Spirtdancer Spreads 'em
You do little in explaining your reasoning for any of this. This deck will only get better if we work together and at least state whats behind decisions and statements like yours.
My Trade Thread
Bloodwitch is only good because of the pro-white effect. Drana is just as weak, and the ability isn't amazing. It can't be used until the turn after she is played, and this kind of slow play is fit for control, not vamps. The games shouldn't really be lasting that long. Bloodwitch is better in all white deck matchups, neither is useful vs RDW, and vs Jund, neither should be used since we can't live long enough and even if we did, we run into Broodmates.
Inquisition always makes any deck discard on turn one, and we have no turn one play. Nuff said. It removes nearly all of RDW and WW, and it can really mess up naya, bant and Jund. Obviously it helps vs control decks as well. It is even great in mirror. It is even better post sideboard when they bring out black hate like GSS, WK, and DL, so at a minimum, it has to be in the sideboard, but I would really recommend main deck. Plus I love to know what my opponent is holding. It makes the game so much easier.
Vamps vs non-control, non-white decks
T1 Inquisition/Duress
T2 2 cmc creature
T3 3 cmc creature
T4 2 cmc creature + removal/2 cmc creature
T5 Mind sludge/Nocturnus/Tendrils or 3 cmc creature + removal/ 2 cmc creature
T6 Nocturnus/whatever else you are holding
There really isn't room for Drana. I don't even maindeck Mind Sludge, and I still don't have room for Drana. MBC yes, Vamps no.
Spirtdancer Spreads 'em
I pretty much agree with everything you said. Except that if he didn't have the drawback, i think he would be an automatic 4-of. I am curious to see if consuming vapors does get tried, although I assume there are just too many worthless creatures to sacrifice to it...
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Disagree. I think the fact that it has Rebound actually makes it viable. If it was a one-and-done spell, it would be awful. The rebound means that you are getting 2 creatures out of one spell, which means the turn after you play Vapors, you basically know that you are going to get another one of their creatures off the board without tapping for it, allowing you to put out the creatures you want/need. I'll be MBing Consuming Vapors once I get it.
TBD...