What are some good, budget finishers for this deck?
What version and how Budget are you talking? The finishers in a lot of the Esper decks are Sphinx of Jwar Isle and he's still junk rare priced. And I'll use an exalted Kathari Remnant to beat down about 1/3 of the time as well.
I've actually been contemplating this card for my sideboard as well, but I think the only deck I'd bring it in against is Eldrazi Green...and they would probably be bringing in Windstorm to deal with Sphinx anyway. Probably one of those times where Magebane Armor would be rather nice, but at that point you might be better off with a different solution altogether. That said, cascading into Fabricate to grab a silver bullet sounds intriguing.
Also, now that there's been a deck tech, shouldn't this thread get an upgrade?
I haven't figured out land yet, but it might be a stretch.
Good to see people appreciating Violent Outburst for this deck. The instant speed can come in really handy, and it's great when you want to swing with multiple creatures.
Re: the Thompson sideboard...
I'm thinking we concede the matchup with mana-dude decks for the most part. For the moment I don't think those decks will be widely played. Although I'm afraid that does mean we lose to Eldrazi Green, that deck may lose popularity due to no appearances at Worlds (am I right about that?). Anway, the Thompson sideboard makes games 2 and 3 auto-wins against Red and Boros.
You don't even need the Baneslayer Angels. I would recomend:
4 Deft Duelist - replaces the Mirages and Seas as the card you always hit. cascade into multiples and block almost anything. also after an earthquake against red you can feel pretty sure of getting another very soon.
4 Wall of Denial - block the biggest threats in RDW all day
4 War Monk - you know
3 Wall of Reverance - guess you know why this is good too
I'm not even sure the Wall of Reverance is needed. I can't think what else I'd use those slots for though.
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What do you mean 'mana-dude decks'? I can't see how Naya or GW would be anything other than a bye. Conley Woods' deck is an auto-loss though.
The first one that comes to mind is GWB with 12 fetch lands (I'm counting Expanse as a fetch in this case), Lotus Cobra, possibly Hierarch, Leech, Knight of the Reliquary, Baneslayer, Thornling or Ob Nixilis. It's tricky because we don't often deny them mana (or wipe their mana dudes in time), don't always draw a sweeper in time, and have problems with Angel and Thornling and Nixilis. Now WoD may handle Thornling and hold Baneslayer to just gaining 5 per turn, but a Knight can fairly easily grow big enough to take out a WoD in one blow. Ob is a problem for obvious reasons.
Naya Lotus Angel presents similar problems, assuming it runs fetches, mana dudes, the Knight, and Angel. GW I'm not familiar with, but it could be the same cast of problem creatures.
But I haven't tested the Thompson build against our problem decks. We have a lot of game post-sideboard with Ajani to keep one more problem at bay and Sphinx to dig for sweepers. But when we don't deny mana, we go to SB plan, which is really designed for 2 specific decks. Against other decks our creatures may well be outclassed. Maybe those angels in the SB are important after all.
Finally tried this deck (Rat's 4-color version) for the first time today against R/G Elves and B/R Vampires. Some issues:
- 4 Jungle Shrine is TOO MANY. Not only does it make 8 CIPT, there aren't enough blue sources. Several games I didn't have blue on turn 2, that's BAD. I'd say pull 2 Jungle Shrines, swap in 1 Island and something else.
- I don't like Enlisted Wurm. It is a very unreliable cascade in a deck that runs DoJ and Ajani. You certainly can't depend on it giving you land denial, you really can't depend on what it gives you at all. Therefore it's just a random cascade, and that's not really worth it. The point of cascade denial is to cascade into the denial 100% of the time, not 60 or 70%. I would keep the cascades to 3cc and 4cc only. As for the wurm itself, it's just a big target. I'd rather have some Jwar Jwar Sphinx in the 6cc slot.
- The deck seemed to fizzle out - once it disrupted the land, it lacked enough punch to make the kill.
- Why do we need 26 lands when we're cascading like mad, not to mention also drawing an extra card half the time?
- 4 DoJ isn't enough elim. Not with an extremely poor creature base. Either need more creatures or more ways to deal with creatures.
It was worse than Jund in terms of very late game - I had a giant pile of land, opponent had a giant pile of disrupted land and I couldn't make the kill very often or very quickly. Often I could disrupt and survive with DoJ / Captured Sunlight / Ajani, opponent was often crippled for several turns but then I couldn't get anything going to actually take advantage of the situation and win. The 4-color mana base seemed possible, but needs a little tweaking. The spells need more than tweaking. I'm pulling the Enlisted Wurms for 2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle and 2 of something else. I'm pulling 2 Jungle Shrines for an Island and probably another spell TBH. I will probably also pull at least 1 Arid Mesa and try to work in a couple Terramorphic Expanse. I'd like to have something else that deals with creatures and can also win -- creatures perhaps? I don't know what ATM. I see people using Sphinx of Lost Truths and I don't really see the appeal...
Finally tried this deck (Rat's 4-color version) for the first time today against R/G Elves and B/R Vampires. Some issues:
- 4 Jungle Shrine is TOO MANY. Not only does it make 8 CIPT, there aren't enough blue sources. Several games I didn't have blue on turn 2, that's BAD. I'd say pull 2 Jungle Shrines, swap in 1 Island and something else.
- I don't like Enlisted Wurm. It is a very unreliable cascade in a deck that runs DoJ and Ajani. You certainly can't depend on it giving you land denial, you really can't depend on what it gives you at all. Therefore it's just a random cascade, and that's not really worth it. The point of cascade denial is to cascade into the denial 100% of the time, not 60 or 70%. I would keep the cascades to 3cc and 4cc only. As for the wurm itself, it's just a big target. I'd rather have some Jwar Jwar Sphinx in the 6cc slot.
- The deck seemed to fizzle out - once it disrupted the land, it lacked enough punch to make the kill.
- Why do we need 26 lands when we're cascading like mad, not to mention also drawing an extra card half the time?
- 4 DoJ isn't enough elim. Not with an extremely poor creature base. Either need more creatures or more ways to deal with creatures.
It was worse than Jund in terms of very late game - I had a giant pile of land, opponent had a giant pile of disrupted land and I couldn't make the kill very often or very quickly. Often I could disrupt and survive with DoJ / Captured Sunlight / Ajani, opponent was often crippled for several turns but then I couldn't get anything going to actually take advantage of the situation and win. The 4-color mana base seemed possible, but needs a little tweaking. The spells need more than tweaking. I'm pulling the Enlisted Wurms for 2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle and 2 of something else. I'm pulling 2 Jungle Shrines for an Island and probably another spell TBH. I will probably also pull at least 1 Arid Mesa and try to work in a couple Terramorphic Expanse. I'd like to have something else that deals with creatures and can also win -- creatures perhaps? I don't know what ATM. I see people using Sphinx of Lost Truths and I don't really see the appeal...
I usually want to have 16 ways to get my dominant color in a 4 color deck, and in this deck I only have 14 ways to get blue. The Thompson deck runs 2 Jungle Shrines and 3 Terramorphic Expanse, maybe that's a good way to go. That's 1 more tap land effectively. I'm happy with 12, and find that I can most often play denial on turn 2. But I prefer to always have the colors I need at the risk of sometimes having to wait an extra turn.
Cascading doesn't help hit land drops at all. This deck likes to hit the 1st 4 land drops very consistently. It also runs a lot of fetches, meaning that the effective number of lands is lower. If you got flooded a lot I expect that's a statistic anamoly; I think if you test more that won't happen nearly so often.
Enlisted Wurm is just more CA, but I have dropped him. I need further testing, but I like the Sphinx strategy, including Jwar Isle as a shroud finisher and Lost Truths to dig for answers. Baneslayer Angel could go in over Lost Truths, but again I like the shroud finisher, and Lost Truths as CA plus beater and blocker.
Before making changes recently I would usually win with a Exalted Bloodbraid Elf. You weren't by any chance forgetting to give her exalted bonuses? Anyway, more creatures will surely work better.
I need to do more testing as well, but here's my latest list, influenced by the GT list (I haven't made any changes to my mana base, but will probably try 2 Shrine for 2 Expanse):
I usually want to have 16 ways to get my dominant color in a 4 color deck, and in this deck I only have 14 ways to get blue.
...which is bad. We can't ever lose the turn 2 denial IMO. I am thinking at least 2 Terramorphics. I'm not exactly crazy about Gerry's land distribution either, specifically I don't know why he has only one Scalding Tarn. I'll have to look into it. But probably something in between yours and his.
Cascading thins out the spells, first off. Secondly, half of the time you will cascade into spreading seas and get to draw a card, that's a lot more relevant than the thinning, especially since the fetches also thin the land. However, it is still true that the deck desperately needs to get 4 mana by turn 4 (10 or 11 cards). It usually cannot safely skip denial on turns 2-5. However, note that your version uses violent outburst and his does not. That means you can effectively deny using only 3 mana, more often than his. So, I think anyone using 6 or more 3cc cascades (outburst + plea) can probably go to 25 land. IMO. I'm not sure how I feel about outburst though. Granted, it is instant-speed denial which is important against fetches, and fetches are prevalent. But, you have to admit the ability is pretty crappy. I'm on the fence.
I like the shroud finisher, and Lost Truths as CA plus beater and blocker.
Do you find yourself usually kicking the SoLT? 3/5 vanilla flying + 3 cards still seems unimpressive to me for 7 mana. Presumably you would draw land, cascade/denial and maybe creature or removal. The land is useless at that point, the denial may be useless at that point, so you really get like 1-2 useful cards out of it, plus a vanilla 3/5, and tapped out 7 mana for the turn. I dunno. Still feels like that slot should be strong on its own, like the 5/5 shroud flying. I may try 3 Jwar Jwar and 2 SoLT and see what I think about it.
Before making changes recently I would usually win with a Exalted Bloodbraid Elf. You weren't by any chance forgetting to give her exalted bonuses? Anyway, more creatures will surely work better.
Ha. No. Usually what would happen against both decks (elves and vampires) was that I could fight to stay alive with DoJ/Sunlight/Ajani while denying some or most of his lands. Then I'd be maybe around 6-12 life and have to wipe the board with DoJ. Then he'd start pumping out creatures again, I'd have maybe a Bloodbraid which could attack for 5, sometimes even 2 Bloodbraid, but I'd be too far behind in life to attack. I could never attain a winning board position. Keeping Bloodbraids as blockers is a losing proposition. Wiping with DoJ resets it but he can always flood out creatures faster than I can. Kinda wish I had Remnants, or really any regenerator actually. River Boa's islandwalk+regenerate seems like genius tech here, unfortunately it would kill the cascade. So frustrating, it's like a cascade strait-jacket.
Heh, I just noticed you pulled the Violent Outbursts. I kind of agree with that. It sucks losing the instant-speed against fetches, but it's probably mitigated by having a little more room for big beaters. And 20 LD + LD cascade is about the right amount IMO. Here's what I will try to run next time:
-- Just did some statistical analysis and updated the lands again. This land set gives 16 U, 15 W, 13 G, 12 R. 12 fetch and 9 CIPT. Seems good to me. I'm more concerned with T2 U than T4 WW, so I don't agree with raising more W at the expense of any more U, especially since half of the LD will draw you a card as soon as you can cast it. If "play", 93.07% chance of U by T2; 83.07% chance of WW by T4.
updated with the 4 color PTQ variant. Deck puts itself together pretty quickly once you get the theme. Sideboard, however, is pretty cool. Lifegain > crazy aggro decks
I like this deck. It's strong and can survive well even against very quick aggro decks. I stumbled versus a different esper agro deck, as I couldn't slow their mana, and my build lacked creature removal. As always my SB is rubbish.
I wanted it to be aggressive. Remnant at 2UB is for cascade. At the very worst, he's a flying regenerating convincing mirage. Sometimes he gets exalted and hits for 1 or 2 until the big boys come to play. Esper Charm is for drawing, as mana-screwing your opponent usually means he's got lots of cards to chose from.
My 5 drops are packed, and I've got 2 Enigmas. I think I should change this, but putting in other cards without cascade in 2-3-4 seems a waste.
After SB the mages are quite good. Hope you get one early, name their removal (bolt, path), then if you hit another one on a draw or cascade, name their finisher. It makes your threats even more threatening. IMO Sen Trips really shine in Esper control if you can make them stick.
prettttty funny how all it takes is one pro doing well with a variant of this deck and suddenly everyone's experimenting with all of the stuff we've checked out previously in the 20-some pages of this post
After testing out 4 color version, I definitely think it's the most powerful version I'm messed around with thus far...even though the deck sort of builds itself - someone at my local shop told me some 4 color denial build (like what I was playing) without black and I literially built the exact same deck with a different mana-base.
However, know that this is a meta-breaking type of deck. If you're going to see lots and lots of Eldrazi Green, Esper-Borderpost Beats, or the "Conley Christmas Special" this isn't the deck you want to sleeve up.
prettttty funny how all it takes is one pro doing well with a variant of this deck and suddenly everyone's experimenting with all of the stuff we've checked out previously in the 20-some pages of this post
After testing out 4 color version, I definitely think it's the most powerful version I'm messed around with thus far...even though the deck sort of builds itself - someone at my local shop told me some 4 color denial build (like what I was playing) without black and I literially built the exact same deck with a different mana-base.
However, know that this is a meta-breaking type of deck. If you're going to see lots and lots of Eldrazi Green, Esper-Borderpost Beats, or the "Conley Christmas Special" this isn't the deck you want to sleeve up.
You know, lots of people, including me, were experimenting with this prior to seeing GT's list. I just didn't post in here because the lists with Mesa Enchantress and all that were god awful.
@Rat:
Inspired by GT's list? That IS GT's list. lol
You know, lots of people, including me, were experimenting with this prior to seeing GT's list. I just didn't post in here because the lists with Mesa Enchantress and all that were god awful.
Yep. I've been acquiring the cards for a month. I don't really care whether a pro built it or some hack, I can analyze and refine it just fine on my own. Just got back from vacation and finally decided to proxy it up and start testing. I started with Rat's older list and independently made many of the changes to tweak it toward Gerry's list before I even saw Gerry's list. I'm actually still wanting to try a Sigil of the Empty Throne version, to compare and contrast, because it seems like it would have a much better late game. Not sure whether Enchantress could fit into that, but I wouldn't call it god awful out of hand without actually testing it. Enchantress certainly doesn't seem to work well with DoJ and 4cc cascades, though.
Have people completely give up on this deck? I played it casually last night after a tournament and it just killed people. 3 color seems so much more reliable than the 4 color and you can focus your deck strategy really easily. If I don't knock out lands every turn from 3-7 it is incredibly rare.
@Rat:
Inspired by GT's list? That IS GT's list. lol
I was running everything in the main but the sphinxes long before the GT list became available. You can find it a few pages back. GT's list inspired me to change 6 cards in the main. Other than those 6 cards, I'll continue to think of it as my list, thanks.
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You know, lots of people, including me, were experimenting with this prior to seeing GT's list. I just didn't post in here because the lists with Mesa Enchantress and all that were god awful.
Myself as well. I even reported the GT thread to a mod, and they refused to close it/merge it with this one, even though they are both nearly identical.
Really pisses me off, especially when all you have to do is check the dates of the first posts on our thread, and the GT thread, to find out who came in first. The guy posting in the GT thread even ADMITTED he was making the thread just so "people know a pro player made the deck."
Anyways, in my experience, it has not been performing as well as it was during testing. I've been working with a wubr build. A few posts back I posted the link to my podcast on what I was running, and it's changed since then, but here's a list currently:
I can't tell you the order I played in, but the last tournament, my main problem was I drew really, really, ☺☺☺☺ty in G1 versus Jund. I mull to 5 with no denial (or cascade) in my hand, and only deny one land before he ovverruns me. G2, I get stuck on 2 land for the entire game, and the 3 lands I denied, he just pulses away.
Next is Bushwhacker, and even though I almost constantly deny him red, he's playing like 2 of each of the fetches that get r/w, + expanses, and I can't do anything about it. G2, I side in needles, but it's still not enough. He sides in Mark of Asylum, and suddenly Bit Blast and Fallout are totally negated. I don't see a day until the turn after he kills me.
I played some mono green deck, with terrible cards, but because it's mono colored, I can't deny his land, and bit blast doesn't kill a 5/6, and can't target Kalonian Behemoth anyways. Howl of the Nightpack was no big deal, as I just wrath the tokens away, but he kills me with another Behemoth that I can't answer because I have no Kathari's in play.
You pretty much get the idea. The other tournament, you can listen to in my podcast, Episode #2.
I'll need to catch up on my reading and my performance, but it seems this deck is just not viable with the amount of mono in my meta, but, I still have hope for states next weekend, which will hopefully include a number of multicolored decks... I can hope right?
If you can land a mindlock orb on turn 4 it is pretty brutal. But it is hard to justify enough space in the sideboard draw it reliably. I am planning on trying it, it is really pretty good against any deck using fetches. Specially vampires.
I have never built a deck liks this, but I already own all the esper mana fixing so I figure I will make my own version.
I was thinking: If you splash red for cards like bit blast or maybe blightning, then wouldn't Demolish be a great card? I am going to run 4 in my build and see how they do. I imagine it would be like putting more nails into the coffin of a multicolor deck. I am also going to run sen triplets, because if the opponent has a hand of unplayable cards it seem like the most logical finisher, espiacially if you demolish their last mountain. If they run mono green or mono red with lots of kill spells/bolt, sen triplets could easily be sb'd out for another finisher.
sideboard mindlock orb for bushwhacker? no one really plays it by me so i dont have trouble.
I have no idea why I couldn't think of this O_o;; I have 2 of them which I thought were crap, but until they rotate out, it's pretty good tech. Problem is, it's 4cc. By the time it hits field, a significant amount of damage has already been done... They won't need to crack the other fetches they have to finish you off (would be my assumption). =/
I have no idea why I couldn't think of this O_o;; I have 2 of them which I thought were crap, but until they rotate out, it's pretty good tech. Problem is, it's 4cc. By the time it hits field, a significant amount of damage has already been done... They won't need to crack the other fetches they have to finish you off (would be my assumption). =/
If you played first, they can kiss their Ranger CA goodbye.
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What version and how Budget are you talking? The finishers in a lot of the Esper decks are Sphinx of Jwar Isle and he's still junk rare priced. And I'll use an exalted Kathari Remnant to beat down about 1/3 of the time as well.
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Hmmm. So RGU? I think I need to see a deck list first since I don't know what lands you are running or the ratio of colors.
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4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Slot
2 Enlisted Wurm
4 Ardent Plea
4 Captured Sunlight
4 Spreading Seas
4 Convinicing Mirage
I haven't figured out land yet, but it might be a stretch.
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
I've actually been contemplating this card for my sideboard as well, but I think the only deck I'd bring it in against is Eldrazi Green...and they would probably be bringing in Windstorm to deal with Sphinx anyway. Probably one of those times where Magebane Armor would be rather nice, but at that point you might be better off with a different solution altogether. That said, cascading into Fabricate to grab a silver bullet sounds intriguing.
Also, now that there's been a deck tech, shouldn't this thread get an upgrade?
Good to see people appreciating Violent Outburst for this deck. The instant speed can come in really handy, and it's great when you want to swing with multiple creatures.
Re: the Thompson sideboard...
I'm thinking we concede the matchup with mana-dude decks for the most part. For the moment I don't think those decks will be widely played. Although I'm afraid that does mean we lose to Eldrazi Green, that deck may lose popularity due to no appearances at Worlds (am I right about that?). Anway, the Thompson sideboard makes games 2 and 3 auto-wins against Red and Boros.
You don't even need the Baneslayer Angels. I would recomend:
4 Deft Duelist - replaces the Mirages and Seas as the card you always hit. cascade into multiples and block almost anything. also after an earthquake against red you can feel pretty sure of getting another very soon.
4 Wall of Denial - block the biggest threats in RDW all day
4 War Monk - you know
3 Wall of Reverance - guess you know why this is good too
I'm not even sure the Wall of Reverance is needed. I can't think what else I'd use those slots for though.
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The first one that comes to mind is GWB with 12 fetch lands (I'm counting Expanse as a fetch in this case), Lotus Cobra, possibly Hierarch, Leech, Knight of the Reliquary, Baneslayer, Thornling or Ob Nixilis. It's tricky because we don't often deny them mana (or wipe their mana dudes in time), don't always draw a sweeper in time, and have problems with Angel and Thornling and Nixilis. Now WoD may handle Thornling and hold Baneslayer to just gaining 5 per turn, but a Knight can fairly easily grow big enough to take out a WoD in one blow. Ob is a problem for obvious reasons.
Naya Lotus Angel presents similar problems, assuming it runs fetches, mana dudes, the Knight, and Angel. GW I'm not familiar with, but it could be the same cast of problem creatures.
But I haven't tested the Thompson build against our problem decks. We have a lot of game post-sideboard with Ajani to keep one more problem at bay and Sphinx to dig for sweepers. But when we don't deny mana, we go to SB plan, which is really designed for 2 specific decks. Against other decks our creatures may well be outclassed. Maybe those angels in the SB are important after all.
‘Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.’ – André Gide
- 4 Jungle Shrine is TOO MANY. Not only does it make 8 CIPT, there aren't enough blue sources. Several games I didn't have blue on turn 2, that's BAD. I'd say pull 2 Jungle Shrines, swap in 1 Island and something else.
- I don't like Enlisted Wurm. It is a very unreliable cascade in a deck that runs DoJ and Ajani. You certainly can't depend on it giving you land denial, you really can't depend on what it gives you at all. Therefore it's just a random cascade, and that's not really worth it. The point of cascade denial is to cascade into the denial 100% of the time, not 60 or 70%. I would keep the cascades to 3cc and 4cc only. As for the wurm itself, it's just a big target. I'd rather have some Jwar Jwar Sphinx in the 6cc slot.
- The deck seemed to fizzle out - once it disrupted the land, it lacked enough punch to make the kill.
- Why do we need 26 lands when we're cascading like mad, not to mention also drawing an extra card half the time?
- 4 DoJ isn't enough elim. Not with an extremely poor creature base. Either need more creatures or more ways to deal with creatures.
It was worse than Jund in terms of very late game - I had a giant pile of land, opponent had a giant pile of disrupted land and I couldn't make the kill very often or very quickly. Often I could disrupt and survive with DoJ / Captured Sunlight / Ajani, opponent was often crippled for several turns but then I couldn't get anything going to actually take advantage of the situation and win. The 4-color mana base seemed possible, but needs a little tweaking. The spells need more than tweaking. I'm pulling the Enlisted Wurms for 2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle and 2 of something else. I'm pulling 2 Jungle Shrines for an Island and probably another spell TBH. I will probably also pull at least 1 Arid Mesa and try to work in a couple Terramorphic Expanse. I'd like to have something else that deals with creatures and can also win -- creatures perhaps? I don't know what ATM. I see people using Sphinx of Lost Truths and I don't really see the appeal...
I usually want to have 16 ways to get my dominant color in a 4 color deck, and in this deck I only have 14 ways to get blue. The Thompson deck runs 2 Jungle Shrines and 3 Terramorphic Expanse, maybe that's a good way to go. That's 1 more tap land effectively. I'm happy with 12, and find that I can most often play denial on turn 2. But I prefer to always have the colors I need at the risk of sometimes having to wait an extra turn.
Cascading doesn't help hit land drops at all. This deck likes to hit the 1st 4 land drops very consistently. It also runs a lot of fetches, meaning that the effective number of lands is lower. If you got flooded a lot I expect that's a statistic anamoly; I think if you test more that won't happen nearly so often.
Enlisted Wurm is just more CA, but I have dropped him. I need further testing, but I like the Sphinx strategy, including Jwar Isle as a shroud finisher and Lost Truths to dig for answers. Baneslayer Angel could go in over Lost Truths, but again I like the shroud finisher, and Lost Truths as CA plus beater and blocker.
Before making changes recently I would usually win with a Exalted Bloodbraid Elf. You weren't by any chance forgetting to give her exalted bonuses? Anyway, more creatures will surely work better.
I need to do more testing as well, but here's my latest list, influenced by the GT list (I haven't made any changes to my mana base, but will probably try 2 Shrine for 2 Expanse):
4 [ALA] Jungle Shrine
4 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ARB] Bloodbraid Elf
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
// Spells
4 [M10] Convincing Mirage
4 [ZEN] Spreading Seas
4 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
4 [ARB] Captured Sunlight
4 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea
4 [ARB] Wall of Denial
4 [ALA] Deft Duelist
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [ZEN] Quest for Ancient Secrets
‘Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.’ – André Gide
...which is bad. We can't ever lose the turn 2 denial IMO. I am thinking at least 2 Terramorphics. I'm not exactly crazy about Gerry's land distribution either, specifically I don't know why he has only one Scalding Tarn. I'll have to look into it. But probably something in between yours and his.
Cascading thins out the spells, first off. Secondly, half of the time you will cascade into spreading seas and get to draw a card, that's a lot more relevant than the thinning, especially since the fetches also thin the land. However, it is still true that the deck desperately needs to get 4 mana by turn 4 (10 or 11 cards). It usually cannot safely skip denial on turns 2-5. However, note that your version uses violent outburst and his does not. That means you can effectively deny using only 3 mana, more often than his. So, I think anyone using 6 or more 3cc cascades (outburst + plea) can probably go to 25 land. IMO. I'm not sure how I feel about outburst though. Granted, it is instant-speed denial which is important against fetches, and fetches are prevalent. But, you have to admit the ability is pretty crappy. I'm on the fence.
Do you find yourself usually kicking the SoLT? 3/5 vanilla flying + 3 cards still seems unimpressive to me for 7 mana. Presumably you would draw land, cascade/denial and maybe creature or removal. The land is useless at that point, the denial may be useless at that point, so you really get like 1-2 useful cards out of it, plus a vanilla 3/5, and tapped out 7 mana for the turn. I dunno. Still feels like that slot should be strong on its own, like the 5/5 shroud flying. I may try 3 Jwar Jwar and 2 SoLT and see what I think about it.
Ha. No. Usually what would happen against both decks (elves and vampires) was that I could fight to stay alive with DoJ/Sunlight/Ajani while denying some or most of his lands. Then I'd be maybe around 6-12 life and have to wipe the board with DoJ. Then he'd start pumping out creatures again, I'd have maybe a Bloodbraid which could attack for 5, sometimes even 2 Bloodbraid, but I'd be too far behind in life to attack. I could never attain a winning board position. Keeping Bloodbraids as blockers is a losing proposition. Wiping with DoJ resets it but he can always flood out creatures faster than I can. Kinda wish I had Remnants, or really any regenerator actually. River Boa's islandwalk+regenerate seems like genius tech here, unfortunately it would kill the cascade. So frustrating, it's like a cascade strait-jacket.
Heh, I just noticed you pulled the Violent Outbursts. I kind of agree with that. It sucks losing the instant-speed against fetches, but it's probably mitigated by having a little more room for big beaters. And 20 LD + LD cascade is about the right amount IMO. Here's what I will try to run next time:
2 [ALA] Jungle Shrine
4 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
1 [UNH] Mountain
3 [UNH] Island
3 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [M10] Terramorphic Expanse
4 [ARB] Bloodbraid Elf
3 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
Spells
4 [M10] Convincing Mirage
4 [ZEN] Spreading Seas
4 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
4 [ARB] Captured Sunlight
4 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea
-- Just did some statistical analysis and updated the lands again. This land set gives 16 U, 15 W, 13 G, 12 R. 12 fetch and 9 CIPT. Seems good to me. I'm more concerned with T2 U than T4 WW, so I don't agree with raising more W at the expense of any more U, especially since half of the LD will draw you a card as soon as you can cast it. If "play", 93.07% chance of U by T2; 83.07% chance of WW by T4.
Trade/Sell me your Demonic Attorney!
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Arcane Sanctum
4 Marsh Flats
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Swamp
// Creatures
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Sen Triplets
4 Kathari Remnant
2 Enigma Sphinx
1 Sorin Markov
1 Ajani Goldmane
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Ardent Plea
4 Esper Charm
4 Spreading Seas
4 Convincing Mirage
3 Deny Reality
I wanted it to be aggressive. Remnant at 2UB is for cascade. At the very worst, he's a flying regenerating convincing mirage. Sometimes he gets exalted and hits for 1 or 2 until the big boys come to play. Esper Charm is for drawing, as mana-screwing your opponent usually means he's got lots of cards to chose from.
My 5 drops are packed, and I've got 2 Enigmas. I think I should change this, but putting in other cards without cascade in 2-3-4 seems a waste.
After SB the mages are quite good. Hope you get one early, name their removal (bolt, path), then if you hit another one on a draw or cascade, name their finisher. It makes your threats even more threatening. IMO Sen Trips really shine in Esper control if you can make them stick.
After testing out 4 color version, I definitely think it's the most powerful version I'm messed around with thus far...even though the deck sort of builds itself - someone at my local shop told me some 4 color denial build (like what I was playing) without black and I literially built the exact same deck with a different mana-base.
However, know that this is a meta-breaking type of deck. If you're going to see lots and lots of Eldrazi Green, Esper-Borderpost Beats, or the "Conley Christmas Special" this isn't the deck you want to sleeve up.
Trade/Sell me your Demonic Attorney!
You know, lots of people, including me, were experimenting with this prior to seeing GT's list. I just didn't post in here because the lists with Mesa Enchantress and all that were god awful.
@Rat:
Inspired by GT's list? That IS GT's list. lol
Yep. I've been acquiring the cards for a month. I don't really care whether a pro built it or some hack, I can analyze and refine it just fine on my own. Just got back from vacation and finally decided to proxy it up and start testing. I started with Rat's older list and independently made many of the changes to tweak it toward Gerry's list before I even saw Gerry's list. I'm actually still wanting to try a Sigil of the Empty Throne version, to compare and contrast, because it seems like it would have a much better late game. Not sure whether Enchantress could fit into that, but I wouldn't call it god awful out of hand without actually testing it. Enchantress certainly doesn't seem to work well with DoJ and 4cc cascades, though.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I was running everything in the main but the sphinxes long before the GT list became available. You can find it a few pages back. GT's list inspired me to change 6 cards in the main. Other than those 6 cards, I'll continue to think of it as my list, thanks.
‘Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.’ – André Gide
Myself as well. I even reported the GT thread to a mod, and they refused to close it/merge it with this one, even though they are both nearly identical.
Really pisses me off, especially when all you have to do is check the dates of the first posts on our thread, and the GT thread, to find out who came in first. The guy posting in the GT thread even ADMITTED he was making the thread just so "people know a pro player made the deck."
Anyways, in my experience, it has not been performing as well as it was during testing. I've been working with a wubr build. A few posts back I posted the link to my podcast on what I was running, and it's changed since then, but here's a list currently:
4x Crumbling Necropolis
4x Arcane Sanctum
3x Sejiri Refuge
2x Jwar Isle Refuge
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Gargoyle Castle
3x Island
3x Mountain
3x Kathari Remnant
3x Bituminous Blast
3x Ardent Plea
Spells: 24
3x Day of Judgement
3x Blightning
8x (denial package)
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Ajani Vengeant
2x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Volcanic Fallout
2x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
2x Pithing Needle
2x Quest for Ancient Secrets
2x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Goblin Ruinblaster
2x Journey to Nowhere
2x Luminarch Ascension
I can't tell you the order I played in, but the last tournament, my main problem was I drew really, really, ☺☺☺☺ty in G1 versus Jund. I mull to 5 with no denial (or cascade) in my hand, and only deny one land before he ovverruns me. G2, I get stuck on 2 land for the entire game, and the 3 lands I denied, he just pulses away.
Next is Bushwhacker, and even though I almost constantly deny him red, he's playing like 2 of each of the fetches that get r/w, + expanses, and I can't do anything about it. G2, I side in needles, but it's still not enough. He sides in Mark of Asylum, and suddenly Bit Blast and Fallout are totally negated. I don't see a day until the turn after he kills me.
I played some mono green deck, with terrible cards, but because it's mono colored, I can't deny his land, and bit blast doesn't kill a 5/6, and can't target Kalonian Behemoth anyways. Howl of the Nightpack was no big deal, as I just wrath the tokens away, but he kills me with another Behemoth that I can't answer because I have no Kathari's in play.
You pretty much get the idea. The other tournament, you can listen to in my podcast, Episode #2.
I'll need to catch up on my reading and my performance, but it seems this deck is just not viable with the amount of mono in my meta, but, I still have hope for states next weekend, which will hopefully include a number of multicolored decks... I can hope right?
I was thinking: If you splash red for cards like bit blast or maybe blightning, then wouldn't Demolish be a great card? I am going to run 4 in my build and see how they do. I imagine it would be like putting more nails into the coffin of a multicolor deck. I am also going to run sen triplets, because if the opponent has a hand of unplayable cards it seem like the most logical finisher, espiacially if you demolish their last mountain. If they run mono green or mono red with lots of kill spells/bolt, sen triplets could easily be sb'd out for another finisher.
I have no idea why I couldn't think of this O_o;; I have 2 of them which I thought were crap, but until they rotate out, it's pretty good tech. Problem is, it's 4cc. By the time it hits field, a significant amount of damage has already been done... They won't need to crack the other fetches they have to finish you off (would be my assumption). =/
If you played first, they can kiss their Ranger CA goodbye.