And there is plenty of hate for jund. Great sable stag, while not as much for jund as it was for faeries is a big hate card. Also how about double negative, mindbreak trap, ethersworn cannonist?
Double Negative works. Etherworm cannosit ALWAYS eats a bolt. Mindbreak trap is a nice thought but costs 4 MANA. A leach and a Thrinax will be on the table by the time you can cast it rendering it near-worthless unless you had a path and played a wall of denial.
Uh, people are playing Maindeck Flashfreeze and Celestial Purge, or Devout Lightcaster. Double Negative, etc... on top of that many of the decks at Worlds had warped designs specifically teched against Jund. Andre Coimbras Naya Fatties.dec rolls over to anything playing Day of Judgment; but its designed specifically against Jund. Same with the UWR control decks. Its reaching similar levels.
so basically Wotc needs to stop making decks that are easy to play and win with?
"but that will discourage new players" well new players are supposed to suck at the game at first and learn how to play properly.
Basically i want to see the top deck take the amount of skill to play required to be a top player...
thats what ticks me off about jund. it plays itself, takes minimal thought and plays like a conveyor belt... no variety to the games no matter what deck your playing against.
I want to see jund have to sideboard to beat a deck rather than just have left over main deck cards in case they need them for a random match.
Hopefully elfdrazi will do that force jund to sideboard Naturalize....but i knw they will just solve the problem with Maelstrom pulse
Easy to play
Cheap to build
Strong because control is so weak
Strong because other aggro / midrange builds can't generate as much card advantage (Getting spells for free helps, I hear)
Basically this. The deck is really cheap to buy. Also it has one of the best ratio for strength to price.
BTW, I've watched my friend who is completely new to Magic play Jund against my other friend who placed top sixteen at a PTQ a season ago who was playing mono green Elfdrazi.
Guess who won?
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Not this one. Jund, with all its cascade cards and creatures that often demand 2 for 1s for removal, is especially good at beating a traditional counter - removal control. If a control deck arose and Jund weren't capable of defeating it, no other midrange or aggro deck could. Before rotation, Spectral Procession decks, with all its tokens and Burrentons, were the bad matchup for Jund.
What is needed to defeat Jund is either a faster, more resilient combo deck, since Jund goldfish is usually low unless it draws Leeches, or land denial, which is another weak point. A reprint of Mana Leak, which is what the control players are always asking for, would make Jund the best deck to fight it with its cascade cards and therefore even more played, as the decks that can stand against Jund (Eldrazi green, Naya, Bant) would be the ones suffering from the Mana Leak.
As for the deck being mindless to play... it is a scrubbish complaint, such as the ones about permission being a cheap tactic or land destruction being unfun.
And yet, despite making multiple mistakes in a game, the Affinity would still be able to easily win the game despite the opponent devoting literally their entire sideboard to artifact hate.
Affinity was ridiculously forgiving. Jund has nothing on a deck with much more overall explosiveness than it as well as being directly responsible for players quitting the game in masses.
Easily?
Have you seen the deck that won Worlds 2004? It took a deck that has 16 Maindeck artifact hate and 7 Sideboard hate to win against Affinity. Affinity was ridiculously forgiving if your playing against someone who is not familiar with the deck but in high level tournaments and with all the artifact hate during that time, it took alot of skill (compared to Jund) to pilot affinity during those days.
I just dont get how people are saying that Affinity was mindless or was easier to pilot compared to Jund. Jund is just attack, removal, damage or discard no tricks whatsoever. Affinity had vial, cranial plating, modular, attack phase tricks. You had to plan ahead, think very carefully and calculate precisely on the attack phase.
The main problem i see in Jund is the lack of good counter/hate/hosers against it.. That is also one of the reasons why its was more popular compared to Fae or Affinity.
Yeah. Even control's best answer to cascade, Double Negative... is still a 1-for-1.
Wouldn't that be a 2 for 1? Countering the freebie and the cascade spell while they were still on the stack. Silence in response to the cascade trigger is more of a 1 for 1.
In terms of card advantage, the caster of the cascade spell has only lost 1 card from their hand, and the other came from the deck. In the end, we've both lost the same amount of cards from our hands after you double negative. Sure, it sucks, but it really isn't that bad.
Typically cards in hand vs cards expended is the meter used to measure card advantage, however case in my opinion could be made the above example is a 2 for 1.
Even though the card is not in the other player's hand it could have an impact on the board or the cards in your hand depending what they cascade into and your board position. Because of that impact I don't think the trade of cards can be best described with the standard card advantage meter as just a 1 for 1.
It's in my opinion a situation where the game has evolved and requires different outlooks on advantage that aren't directly related to hand-size.
What I would give for Paladin en-Vec right now. Something which was a Jund hoser on the level of that card would be fantastic. But here's the real issue. Cascade is *insane*. You needed Cryptic Command and Faeries to keep that beast in check.
Well, until someone comes up with a viable combo. Then, we all cry. Here's to some mediocre but consistent combo dominating post WWK standard.
No one responded to this, so I fear I must. Fae wasn't the issue for Jund last season. I say this because I'm a seasoned Jund pilot, and Fae was never an issue. Same with 5CC. However, BFT... now THAT was an issue. Same goes for that Reveillark guy...
So if i counter a Stroke of Genius for 10, it'll be a 11-for-one?
The difference between drawing cards and playing them for free should be very obvious. That's not even the same type of comparsion. I don't understand why people try to use powerful cards from MTG's past to make point when those cards don't function under the same circumstances. It's like they feel the clout and nostalgia of that card can same how make points for them.
Quote from nikelrah »
If you double negative a cascade spell and it's cascade target, the board position has not changed and everyone is down one card. If this is not a 1-for-1 trade then i don't know what is. Sure, if you want to express that double negating a BBE + cascade target is crucial, then card advantage is not the correct metric to use. Because countering that Flash also has a huge impact (e.g. will prevent you from losing RIGHT NOW) but it's still a 1-for-1 trade nonetheless.
I should have went into greater explaination of my statement when I first made it, that is a forsight on my part. I'm approaching the idea of advantage in a different way, because the game has changed drasticially from the Acadamy days of the infamous phrase "Stroke You. I Win!" When you have a thread full of people with the believe that Bloodbraid Elf is the beating heart of Jund and if you cut it out with a ban hammer you'll somehow slay the meance or at least weaken it, it's time to rethink your outlook in my opinion. We've gone from drawing cards which likely you'll have to pay for to play to in short tutoring them up and playing them for nill-notta. So in my opinion, while yes card for card it's a 1 for 1, but effect for effect it's a 2 for 1. 2 effects for your 1 spell. I feel this is not something to be overlooked.
Babbler, you don't still get any card advantage. You just trade one card for another. If on the other hand you'd play cancel instead the card advantage would not change, but board position would, either you let Bloodbraid Elf resolve or then let the thingy from cascade to resolve, whatever you do they'll go ahead of you with either a creature or you lose 2 cards and take 3 damage.
Yeah, I pretty much said it's notcardadvantage, but a different sort of advantage. Jund is typically considered to win by via advantage not directly linked to card advantage, and the cascade spells are often referred to as 2 for 1's even on these boards. What I'm getting at is even though it's not card advantage it's still a measurable difference in the board position, and in my opinion that difference is best illustrated as a 2 for 1.
Jund has many people in this panicked little fetile position. One that keeps them from even wanting to think about a way to stop it, rather just wanting someone else to do all the work for them. It's sort of sad really. I've played through Black Summer, Combo Winter, Clamp, Affinity, Jitte, Fae, all the way up until Jund. I've got to tell you Magic Players have turned into some real world class whiners.
No one responded to this, so I fear I must. Fae wasn't the issue for Jund last season. I say this because I'm a seasoned Jund pilot, and Fae was never an issue. Same with 5CC. However, BFT... now THAT was an issue. Same goes for that Reveillark guy...
You must be a great Jund player because the matches that I've seen Jund go up against Fae and 5CC have been fairly tough for them. I'd put the Fae matchup at 60/40 in favor of Fae and 5CC 55/45 in favor of 5CC.
However I agree that BFT and Reveillark were hell on the deck. I personally beat 4 Jund decks at the last Standard PTQ I went to with my Merfolk deck simply by continually drawing my sideboarded Reveillarks and BFTs. It was just devastating to the Jund player, even after mulliganing and then playing 1st or 2nd turn BFT.
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You must be a great Jund player because the matches that I've seen Jund go up against Fae and 5CC have been fairly tough for them. I'd put the Fae matchup at 60/40 in favor of Fae and 5CC 55/45 in favor of 5CC.
However I agree that BFT and Reveillark were hell on the deck. I personally beat 4 Jund decks at the last Standard PTQ I went to with my Merfolk deck simply by continually drawing my sideboarded Reveillarks and BFTs. It was just devastating to the Jund player, even after mulliganing and then playing 1st or 2nd turn BFT.
It simply had to do with preparation... I came packing full sets of main deck anathemancers and fallouts. Wasn't too hard after that. Then, when GSS came out, well...
The difference between drawing cards and playing them for free should be very obvious.
Cascade doesn't just let you play a card for free, it draws you a card and then lets you play that for free. That's why Cascade is both CA and tempo advantage.
That's not even the same type of comparsion. I don't understand why people try to use powerful cards from MTG's past to make point when those cards don't function under the same circumstances. It's like they feel the clout and nostalgia of that card can same how make points for them.
So in my opinion, while yes card for card it's a 1 for 1, but effect for effect it's a 2 for 1. 2 effects for your 1 spell. I feel this is not something to be overlooked.
Cascade is 2 for 1. Everyone recognizes that. Double Negative on two separate spells is a 2 for 1. That is also obvious. When you cascade, and I double negative, we both lost ONE card. That is a 1 for 1 trade.
Card advantage isn't hard. You just have to be very literal about it and realize there are other metrics for game advantage as well.
Cascade doesn't just let you play a card for free, it draws you a card and then lets you play that for free. That's why Cascade is both CA and tempo advantage.
The camparsion was countering a Stroke of Genius to countering a Bloodbraid Elf or really any Cascade Spell with Double Negative. You cannot seriously think that Cascade is a draw effect. If anything it's semi-tutor-ish effect. It has specific conditions also shows every card it's weeding through, and most decks are built to take advantage of that. It's not really a draw effect at all.
Quote from FieryBalrog »
See above. All now irrelevant.
The fact people often use cards from Magic's History to make points even if those cards have nothing to do with the situation was were that portion was going. It was veering from the original content with added opinion not directly related to the original point that drawing cards it a seperate, inherently different event from Cascade. I happen to find people doing that annoying and was stating it. Sorry to bust the bubble of your seemingly over-inflated sense of self satisfaction, but you can't really make my opinion irrelevant in this case just by saying you feel Cascade draws you a card.
Quote from FieryBalrog »
Cascade is 2 for 1. Everyone recognizes that. Double Negative on two separate spells is a 2 for 1. That is also obvious. When you cascade, and I double negative, we both lost ONE card. That is a 1 for 1 trade.
Ok, what about the card you cascaded into. Double Negative can be played when that card it put on the stack and counter both spells. See I just don't think that if playing a Cascade spell nets you a minium of a 2 for 1 that countering both spells doesn't net something similar.
Quote from FieryBalrog »
Card advantage isn't hard. You just have to be very literal about it and realize there are other metrics for game advantage as well.
Yeah. That's pretty much the back bone of what I've been saying. That there are other metrics to measure game advantage.
I've never said I believe if you play Double Negative you'll suddenly beat Jund. Though it seems people think I am. I'm simply saying it neutralizes the advantage gained from Cascade Spells.
I've never said I believe if you play Double Negative you'll suddenly beat Jund. Though it seems people think I am. I'm simply saying it neutralizes the advantage gained from Cascade Spells.
The problem is that you need to leave yourself UUR open and hope your opponent doesnt beat you down with cascade before you have the DN.
This is why I don't understand why a good bunch of people think Counterspell is overpowered (I don't care if it comes back or not). You just get raped if you don't have any certain way of dealing with multiple number of threats.
The camparsion was countering a Stroke of Genius to countering a Bloodbraid Elf or really any Cascade Spell with Double Negative. You cannot seriously think that Cascade is a draw effect.
But I can, and do. Just as Dark Confidant is a draw effect without using the word draw.
If anything it's semi-tutor-ish effect. It has specific conditions also shows every card it's weeding through, and most decks are built to take advantage of that. It's not really a draw effect at all.
Holy Batman, talk about missing the forest for the trees! None of this changes the essential fact that you're getting a free card from your deck, or 2 cards by playing one. I mean, Eternal Witness is a 2 for 1 (or a 1 for 0, which is the same thing), and thats not a literal "draw effect" either. 1 card from your graveyard to your hand (+1), 1 permanent appears on board (+1), 1 card disappears from your hand (-1).
Ok, what about the card you cascaded into. Double Negative can be played when that card it put on the stack and counter both spells. See I just don't think that if playing a Cascade spell nets you a minium of a 2 for 1 that countering both spells doesn't net something similar.
You can think of it as one 2 for 1 cancelling out another 2 for 1 (just like Pyroclasm cancelling out a Raise the Alarm), but that's not any different from a 1 for 1. Its totally irrelevant which one you call it. I prefer to call it a 1 for 1 in this case because you both lose a card you had in your hand in the exchange, but it doesn't matter either way.
Consider:
Your opponent casts two lightning bolts without waiting for resolution, for whatever reason. You cast Double Negative. Yes, you just 2 for 1'd your opponent, which is exactly what it means. Your opponent loses 2 cards in hand, you lose 1.
Your opponent casts Bloodbraid elf cascading into Putrid Leech. You cast Double Negative. Its ultimately a 1 for 1 trade. Your opponent loses 1 card in hand, you lose 1.
The situations are not the same. That is the only point I think people were getting at. Which is why Double Negative isn't "pump my fist" awesome against Cascade. Its good in that its better than awful options like Cancel, because at least its an even trade. But it doesn't really cause the Jund player to fall behind in resources (cards, or tempo). Double Negative vs. Bloodbraid elf is a +1 tempo advantage (since DN is 1 cheaper), but DN is a fairly narrow answer (requires mana open, requires DN in hand at that exact moment, can't draw it later), which means that its not a particularly great weapon against Cascade.
Think of something like Day of Judgment vs. Conqueror's Pledge. Its the same. Day of Judgment is a good answer to Conqueror's Pledge in that its certainly way better than Doom Blade. But its not like you really caused your opponent to fall behind in resources. And on the whole, I think DoJ is way more flexible than Double Negative, which is why DoJ is still an awesome card and DN is a narrow, specific-hate-card. The only reason to play Double Negative is that the meta is so incredibly infested with Jund and there aren't many (any?) better options.
Double Negative works. Etherworm cannosit ALWAYS eats a bolt. Mindbreak trap is a nice thought but costs 4 MANA. A leach and a Thrinax will be on the table by the time you can cast it rendering it near-worthless unless you had a path and played a wall of denial.
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"but that will discourage new players" well new players are supposed to suck at the game at first and learn how to play properly.
Basically i want to see the top deck take the amount of skill to play required to be a top player...
thats what ticks me off about jund. it plays itself, takes minimal thought and plays like a conveyor belt... no variety to the games no matter what deck your playing against.
I want to see jund have to sideboard to beat a deck rather than just have left over main deck cards in case they need them for a random match.
Hopefully elfdrazi will do that force jund to sideboard Naturalize....but i knw they will just solve the problem with Maelstrom pulse
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Basically this. The deck is really cheap to buy. Also it has one of the best ratio for strength to price.
Guess who won?
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Not this one. Jund, with all its cascade cards and creatures that often demand 2 for 1s for removal, is especially good at beating a traditional counter - removal control. If a control deck arose and Jund weren't capable of defeating it, no other midrange or aggro deck could. Before rotation, Spectral Procession decks, with all its tokens and Burrentons, were the bad matchup for Jund.
What is needed to defeat Jund is either a faster, more resilient combo deck, since Jund goldfish is usually low unless it draws Leeches, or land denial, which is another weak point. A reprint of Mana Leak, which is what the control players are always asking for, would make Jund the best deck to fight it with its cascade cards and therefore even more played, as the decks that can stand against Jund (Eldrazi green, Naya, Bant) would be the ones suffering from the Mana Leak.
As for the deck being mindless to play... it is a scrubbish complaint, such as the ones about permission being a cheap tactic or land destruction being unfun.
Easily?
Have you seen the deck that won Worlds 2004? It took a deck that has 16 Maindeck artifact hate and 7 Sideboard hate to win against Affinity. Affinity was ridiculously forgiving if your playing against someone who is not familiar with the deck but in high level tournaments and with all the artifact hate during that time, it took alot of skill (compared to Jund) to pilot affinity during those days.
I just dont get how people are saying that Affinity was mindless or was easier to pilot compared to Jund. Jund is just attack, removal, damage or discard no tricks whatsoever. Affinity had vial, cranial plating, modular, attack phase tricks. You had to plan ahead, think very carefully and calculate precisely on the attack phase.
The main problem i see in Jund is the lack of good counter/hate/hosers against it.. That is also one of the reasons why its was more popular compared to Fae or Affinity.
Wouldn't that be a 2 for 1? Countering the freebie and the cascade spell while they were still on the stack. Silence in response to the cascade trigger is more of a 1 for 1.
Typically cards in hand vs cards expended is the meter used to measure card advantage, however case in my opinion could be made the above example is a 2 for 1.
Even though the card is not in the other player's hand it could have an impact on the board or the cards in your hand depending what they cascade into and your board position. Because of that impact I don't think the trade of cards can be best described with the standard card advantage meter as just a 1 for 1.
It's in my opinion a situation where the game has evolved and requires different outlooks on advantage that aren't directly related to hand-size.
No one responded to this, so I fear I must. Fae wasn't the issue for Jund last season. I say this because I'm a seasoned Jund pilot, and Fae was never an issue. Same with 5CC. However, BFT... now THAT was an issue. Same goes for that Reveillark guy...
The difference between drawing cards and playing them for free should be very obvious. That's not even the same type of comparsion. I don't understand why people try to use powerful cards from MTG's past to make point when those cards don't function under the same circumstances. It's like they feel the clout and nostalgia of that card can same how make points for them.
I should have went into greater explaination of my statement when I first made it, that is a forsight on my part. I'm approaching the idea of advantage in a different way, because the game has changed drasticially from the Acadamy days of the infamous phrase "Stroke You. I Win!" When you have a thread full of people with the believe that Bloodbraid Elf is the beating heart of Jund and if you cut it out with a ban hammer you'll somehow slay the meance or at least weaken it, it's time to rethink your outlook in my opinion. We've gone from drawing cards which likely you'll have to pay for to play to in short tutoring them up and playing them for nill-notta. So in my opinion, while yes card for card it's a 1 for 1, but effect for effect it's a 2 for 1. 2 effects for your 1 spell. I feel this is not something to be overlooked.
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Yeah, I pretty much said it's not card advantage, but a different sort of advantage. Jund is typically considered to win by via advantage not directly linked to card advantage, and the cascade spells are often referred to as 2 for 1's even on these boards. What I'm getting at is even though it's not card advantage it's still a measurable difference in the board position, and in my opinion that difference is best illustrated as a 2 for 1.
Jund has many people in this panicked little fetile position. One that keeps them from even wanting to think about a way to stop it, rather just wanting someone else to do all the work for them. It's sort of sad really. I've played through Black Summer, Combo Winter, Clamp, Affinity, Jitte, Fae, all the way up until Jund. I've got to tell you Magic Players have turned into some real world class whiners.
You must be a great Jund player because the matches that I've seen Jund go up against Fae and 5CC have been fairly tough for them. I'd put the Fae matchup at 60/40 in favor of Fae and 5CC 55/45 in favor of 5CC.
However I agree that BFT and Reveillark were hell on the deck. I personally beat 4 Jund decks at the last Standard PTQ I went to with my Merfolk deck simply by continually drawing my sideboarded Reveillarks and BFTs. It was just devastating to the Jund player, even after mulliganing and then playing 1st or 2nd turn BFT.
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Cascade doesn't just let you play a card for free, it draws you a card and then lets you play that for free. That's why Cascade is both CA and tempo advantage.
See above. All now irrelevant.
Cascade is 2 for 1. Everyone recognizes that. Double Negative on two separate spells is a 2 for 1. That is also obvious. When you cascade, and I double negative, we both lost ONE card. That is a 1 for 1 trade.
Card advantage isn't hard. You just have to be very literal about it and realize there are other metrics for game advantage as well.
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The camparsion was countering a Stroke of Genius to countering a Bloodbraid Elf or really any Cascade Spell with Double Negative. You cannot seriously think that Cascade is a draw effect. If anything it's semi-tutor-ish effect. It has specific conditions also shows every card it's weeding through, and most decks are built to take advantage of that. It's not really a draw effect at all.
The fact people often use cards from Magic's History to make points even if those cards have nothing to do with the situation was were that portion was going. It was veering from the original content with added opinion not directly related to the original point that drawing cards it a seperate, inherently different event from Cascade. I happen to find people doing that annoying and was stating it. Sorry to bust the bubble of your seemingly over-inflated sense of self satisfaction, but you can't really make my opinion irrelevant in this case just by saying you feel Cascade draws you a card.
Ok, what about the card you cascaded into. Double Negative can be played when that card it put on the stack and counter both spells. See I just don't think that if playing a Cascade spell nets you a minium of a 2 for 1 that countering both spells doesn't net something similar.
Yeah. That's pretty much the back bone of what I've been saying. That there are other metrics to measure game advantage.
I've never said I believe if you play Double Negative you'll suddenly beat Jund. Though it seems people think I am. I'm simply saying it neutralizes the advantage gained from Cascade Spells.
The problem is that you need to leave yourself UUR open and hope your opponent doesnt beat you down with cascade before you have the DN.
This is why I don't understand why a good bunch of people think Counterspell is overpowered (I don't care if it comes back or not). You just get raped if you don't have any certain way of dealing with multiple number of threats.
That's true. There's isn't much of a deck to support it right now. Maybe that will change with the next expansion.
But I can, and do. Just as Dark Confidant is a draw effect without using the word draw.
Holy Batman, talk about missing the forest for the trees! None of this changes the essential fact that you're getting a free card from your deck, or 2 cards by playing one. I mean, Eternal Witness is a 2 for 1 (or a 1 for 0, which is the same thing), and thats not a literal "draw effect" either. 1 card from your graveyard to your hand (+1), 1 permanent appears on board (+1), 1 card disappears from your hand (-1).
You can think of it as one 2 for 1 cancelling out another 2 for 1 (just like Pyroclasm cancelling out a Raise the Alarm), but that's not any different from a 1 for 1. Its totally irrelevant which one you call it. I prefer to call it a 1 for 1 in this case because you both lose a card you had in your hand in the exchange, but it doesn't matter either way.
Consider:
Your opponent casts two lightning bolts without waiting for resolution, for whatever reason. You cast Double Negative. Yes, you just 2 for 1'd your opponent, which is exactly what it means. Your opponent loses 2 cards in hand, you lose 1.
Your opponent casts Bloodbraid elf cascading into Putrid Leech. You cast Double Negative. Its ultimately a 1 for 1 trade. Your opponent loses 1 card in hand, you lose 1.
The situations are not the same. That is the only point I think people were getting at. Which is why Double Negative isn't "pump my fist" awesome against Cascade. Its good in that its better than awful options like Cancel, because at least its an even trade. But it doesn't really cause the Jund player to fall behind in resources (cards, or tempo). Double Negative vs. Bloodbraid elf is a +1 tempo advantage (since DN is 1 cheaper), but DN is a fairly narrow answer (requires mana open, requires DN in hand at that exact moment, can't draw it later), which means that its not a particularly great weapon against Cascade.
Think of something like Day of Judgment vs. Conqueror's Pledge. Its the same. Day of Judgment is a good answer to Conqueror's Pledge in that its certainly way better than Doom Blade. But its not like you really caused your opponent to fall behind in resources. And on the whole, I think DoJ is way more flexible than Double Negative, which is why DoJ is still an awesome card and DN is a narrow, specific-hate-card. The only reason to play Double Negative is that the meta is so incredibly infested with Jund and there aren't many (any?) better options.
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