Payoff Cards: Charnel Troll, Narcomoeba, Gruesome Menagerie.
-Charnel Troll is the main threat in the deck. This card can get out of hand pretty quickly and the graveyard should be plentiful with the help of the supporter cards. Narcomoeba is uncastable in this deck so you can make it useful one of three ways. Getting it on to the battlefield when you use a supporter card, bringing it back using Gruesome Menagerie or use it as fuel for Charnel Troll. Gruesome Menagerie can be an absolute power house in this deck. Almost all of your creatures will trigger relevant abilites when they enter the battlefield gaining additional value on top of the three bodies.
Sideboard:
-Seeing that the meta is about to change drastically and we don't know which decks will be at the top, I put together a list of 15 cards that I think can be useful in the new standard format. Most likely I will reduce the sideboard to 5-6 relevant sideboard cards that are effective and target specific tier 1 decks.
I wanted to get your guys/girls opinion and see what changes I can make in order to make this deck as competitive as possible in the new standard format.
I think this is the sort of deck that Nullhide Ferox and Plaguecrafter would be really good in - Ferox looks just unreasonable to deal with, and you're pretty much just running creatures anyway, and Plaguecrafter lets you ditch Stitchers, kill Walkers through Wraths/Settles and sneak removal under Ferox.
Narcomoeba seems really bad with Troll. Troll pays off creatures in your graveyard, but Narcomoeba doesn't hit the graveyard. Troll wants to be in a deck with other threats to draw removal, Narcomoeba just kind of shows up and doesn't do anything. There's no reason to put cards in your deck that you just don't want or need at any point in the game.
I like the Explore dudes, but they seem like they'll make Pelt Collector kind of unreliable growing past 2/2.
I think this is the sort of deck that Nullhide Ferox and Plaguecrafter would be really good in - Ferox looks just unreasonable to deal with, and you're pretty much just running creatures anyway, and Plaguecrafter lets you ditch Stitchers, kill Walkers through Wraths/Settles and sneak removal under Ferox.
Narcomoeba seems really bad with Troll. Troll pays off creatures in your graveyard, but Narcomoeba doesn't hit the graveyard. Troll wants to be in a deck with other threats to draw removal, Narcomoeba just kind of shows up and doesn't do anything. There's no reason to put cards in your deck that you just don't want or need at any point in the game.
I like the Explore dudes, but they seem like they'll make Pelt Collector kind of unreliable growing past 2/2.
the only thign I see is that narcomoeba could be discard to the troll for a +1/+1 counter if it lands in your hand. Allowing you to pump him basically at no cost.
Even when Narcomoeba hits the field it's just a 1/1 flier. If you had some more sacrifice a creature effects it would probably be worth it. I'd just cut Narco and put in some more interaction or GY enablers. Chupacabra has particularly over performed for me so far.
Ya I agree with you guys about Narcomoeba. I am going to take him out for 2 Plaguecrafter and 2 Ravenous Chupacabra. That will add some well needed removal to the deck while also getting rid of a low upside 1/1 flyer. Now that Narcomoeba is being removed from the deck, do you guys think that 4 Charnel Troll and 3 Gruesome Menagerie are enough graveyard payoff cards?
I feel that you are trying hard to build around the Troll, when it isn't an ideal threat. Troll dies to all removal and doesn't provide any card advantage itself, and it has a serious drawback of needing to build around graveyard. Most decks want their threats to be resilient, come back, or provide some form of advantage or inevitability. Trolls only grows and provides trample, which are good but not the best with the trouble of making your deck build around it's drawback.
You could simply run Green Aggro, splash black for Gruesome and some support. Steel Leaf Champion replaces Troll and represents your other 3 drop recursive creature. Then run all your premium green creatures, Jadelight, Kraul Harpooner, Thorn Lieutenant, etc.
If only Troll had a creature I could send back to hand from exile. This Troll is pure garbage in my opinion, I don't see how it can compete with the other 3-drops in the same colors. Let's say I want to reanimate stuff, well the Troll makes me exile creatures in my graveyard, so what's the point ? This boy needed hexproof or indestrictible to be worth such CDA / QDA.
Private Mod Note
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Because you must sacrifice cards from your hand from time to time, then exile some in your graveyard, so you get no value but +1/+1 counters on a single body with no protection ? Because it's a card disadvantage engine, only for a 5/5 trample that gets blocked by Steel Leaf Champion, Nullhide Ferox or Rekindling Phoenix by turn 4 ?
It's not an undergrowth card at all, it plays against that mechanic actually. You exile cards in your yard, so the undergrowth cards lose value because of the Troll. Reanimation spells lose value as well, resilient threats like Blood Operative have no synergy whatsoever with it. Gruesome Menagerie will not have all the targets you could've because you'll exile stuff with Trolls. Say you reanimate a Troll and 2 other dudes, you're not even sure to have enough food left in the yard to let Troll live several turns.
I actually think you have to choose between Troll and Menagerie, even though both use the same dredge cards. Those 2 pay-offs are anti-synergistic.
Private Mod Note
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
How is a 3 mana 4/4 that grows every turn and can grow in-combat bad? Charnel Troll is probably the best overgrowth payoff in the set.
I have not liked Charnel Troll at all. It's much harder to fuel than it appears to be, it taxes the graveyard so heavily that you can't use it as a meaningful resource for anything else, and the payoff is "just" an overstated 3-mana beater. It's really hard to find a way to play enough high-pressure cards to close out a game before Troll is a liability while still playing anemic enablers like Stitcher's Supplier to play Troll on-curve while still having enough total resources to do anything.
I think you have it dead backwards when you call Troll an Undergrowth payoff. It hurts all your other Undergrowth cards.
Here are the real Undergrowth payoffs in no particular order:
Izoni, Thousand-Eyed - superb finisher, if you remember Ishkanah, Grafwidow from the last time graveyard-centric mechanics were tier 1 in Standard, the card is like that. You put a ton of board presence down and make combat impossible then win with her, her swarm, and whatever else you have lying around.
Molderhulk - I think this card is only playable with exactly Memorial to Folly in your deck, but once it is, you have a real engine going. In the later game this is a 2-mana 6/6 that draws you an uncounterable Regrowth if it resolves. Even in the middle game, playing it for five mana and getting yourself to Izoni or other payoff mana is worthwhile, since the likelihood of getting it back and chaining off a Hulkfolly loop is so high.
Necrotic Wound - basically a 1-of or at most 2-of, but an extremely efficient removal spell that deals with any creature for 1 mana by around turn 4-5 or so. Lets you double or triple spell where you otherwise wouldn't.
But you see how Charnel Troll messes with all of these? As a matter of fact, I would point-blank say that if you play Charnel Troll you cannot play any other Undergrowth effects. They all scale so drastically that even small incremental chewing is more disruptive than you'd think.
I tried to write a primer-style post about this archetype before, but I got too cute with pictures and ran afoul of the spam detector and lost the post. Sad beats.
Memorial to Folly returning Molderhulk to hand, Molderhulk returning Memorial to Folly to the battlefield. Free 6/6.
As above, but with a flipped Temple of Aclazotz in play, you get an interaction similar to the one between The Scarab God and Temple of Aclazotz in Standard right now - 6 life and a free block each turn to stabilize against aggressive decks.
Glowspore Shaman putting Memorial to Folly on top of your library. Strong virtual card advantage by setting up a great draw the next turn.
As above, but follow up with a Jadelight Ranger for direct card advantage after setting up a powerful draw.
Plaguecrafter sacrificing Stitcher's Supplier or a past-its-expiration-date Llanowar Elves. Virtual card advantage, since your irrelevant body becomes relevant (+1 card) and you get a card of theirs (+2 cards) for the price of one (-1 card; +2-1 = +1).
Not really an "interaction" but if you draw the one Josu Vess and need to play it on curve, the high amount of recursion in this deck ensures that you aren't spewing the ability to use his kicker in that game. You can find ways to get rid of him and then rebuy him once you have enough mana to kick.
Cards to consider:
Necrotic Wound - very efficient removal spell in the middle game, instrumental in turning the corner. I have one in the sideboard, I kinda want to try out one maindeck and one sideboard for matchups where you're either tagging an X/1 or X/2 by turn 4 or the game is going long enough for this to be a crucial double/triple-spell card on turns 5-7.
Golgari Findbroker - solid recursion card, I just found that aside from recurring the very occasional planeswalker or the card I'm about to mention, it was generally worse than Molderhulk at the job it tried to do and worse than Ravenous Chupacabra and Josu Vess as an on-curve play. Recurring planeswalkers happened so rarely that that upside wasn't worth it once I cut the next card. But it's not a bad card in the shell.
The Eldest Reborn - you already set up the final chapter very easily, and the first and second chapters are reasonable enough value. The synergy with Golgari Findbroker (final chapter returns Findbroker to play, Findbroker returns Eldest Reborn to hand, play Eldest Reborn and do it all again) was what pushed it over the top to get inclusion in a top-end filled with viable cards. Without Findbroker I don't think this card is doing enough compared to Izoni and friends.
Mausoleum Secrets - an obviously busted card in the right shell but I can't figure this out. Really seems to want a combo piece, just being a generically good topdeck for a fair deck isn't really good enough.
Gruesome Menagerie - again, just returning Plaguecrafter + Stitcher's Supplier + <2-drop> isn't doing it for me. If your opponent has a flier and you have a Kraul Harpooner in the graveyard then you're doing it, but in the abstract this doesn't hit enough cards in a fair deck.
Doom Whisperer - this card is good but ultimately gets 1-for-1'd too easily. Yes the repeated surveiling is worth a card, but is it worth the life? That's a real question in every matchup except Teferi Control.
Key considerations:
Molderhulk trades or eats everything in the Steel Leaf Stompy decks except Vine Mare, notably including Carnage Tyrant; it recurs itself via Memorial to Folly; and it gains a healthy six life per turn if you have Temple of Aclazotz going. This, alongside playing a lot of Ravenous Chupacabra, Plaguecrafter, and six creatures which can block Vine Mare and trade with it (Kraul Harpooner, Jadelight Ranger if you reveal a single spell off 2x explore), should give you enough ways to stall Stompy's aggression and win a longer game. I have some Cast Down and Vraska's Contempt in the sideboard for extra removal. Vivien Reid is the most important card on their side in postboard games.
Boros is an easy matchup as long as you keep hands that do things and don't spew removal. You need to save removal for their flying squad (almost always Aurelia, Lyra; sometimes Shalai and Rekindling Phoenix). All of their little bodies generally should not matter because they can't get through your creatures. The only serious danger besides that is a Knight of Grace that gets 2+ counters on it, since you can't hit it with your targeted removal and its first strike and 5+ power make it impossible to kill in combat, but a single Izoni should give you enough chump blockers to figure out a plan. Molderhulk also cleans up ground pounders basically no matter their size.
You have enough grind potential to beat any midrange and control deck. Again, don't spew removal on unnecessary targets. Save your removal for flying threats and planeswalkers and rely on your board to stall ground pounders.
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Pelt Collector
4 Glowspore Shaman
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Jadelight Ranger
4 Charnel Troll
2 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Plaguecrafter
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
9 Forest
6 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
Instant
4 Assassin's Trophy
Sorcery
3 Gruesome Menagerie
1 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Vine Mare
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Dead Weight
1 Field of Ruin
1 Treasure Map
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Cast Down
1 Necrotic Wound
1 Duress
1 Ritual of Soot
1 Vivien Reid
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
Supporter Cards:
Stitcher's Supplier, Glowspore Shaman, Merfolk Branchwalker, Jadelight Ranger.
-These four cards are what fuel the deck. These supporter cards will fill up the graveyard in order to take advantage of the pay off cards.
Payoff Cards:
Charnel Troll, Narcomoeba, Gruesome Menagerie.
-Charnel Troll is the main threat in the deck. This card can get out of hand pretty quickly and the graveyard should be plentiful with the help of the supporter cards. Narcomoeba is uncastable in this deck so you can make it useful one of three ways. Getting it on to the battlefield when you use a supporter card, bringing it back using Gruesome Menagerie or use it as fuel for Charnel Troll. Gruesome Menagerie can be an absolute power house in this deck. Almost all of your creatures will trigger relevant abilites when they enter the battlefield gaining additional value on top of the three bodies.
Sideboard:
-Seeing that the meta is about to change drastically and we don't know which decks will be at the top, I put together a list of 15 cards that I think can be useful in the new standard format. Most likely I will reduce the sideboard to 5-6 relevant sideboard cards that are effective and target specific tier 1 decks.
I wanted to get your guys/girls opinion and see what changes I can make in order to make this deck as competitive as possible in the new standard format.
Narcomoeba seems really bad with Troll. Troll pays off creatures in your graveyard, but Narcomoeba doesn't hit the graveyard. Troll wants to be in a deck with other threats to draw removal, Narcomoeba just kind of shows up and doesn't do anything. There's no reason to put cards in your deck that you just don't want or need at any point in the game.
I like the Explore dudes, but they seem like they'll make Pelt Collector kind of unreliable growing past 2/2.
the only thign I see is that narcomoeba could be discard to the troll for a +1/+1 counter if it lands in your hand. Allowing you to pump him basically at no cost.
You could simply run Green Aggro, splash black for Gruesome and some support. Steel Leaf Champion replaces Troll and represents your other 3 drop recursive creature. Then run all your premium green creatures, Jadelight, Kraul Harpooner, Thorn Lieutenant, etc.
It's not an undergrowth card at all, it plays against that mechanic actually. You exile cards in your yard, so the undergrowth cards lose value because of the Troll. Reanimation spells lose value as well, resilient threats like Blood Operative have no synergy whatsoever with it. Gruesome Menagerie will not have all the targets you could've because you'll exile stuff with Trolls. Say you reanimate a Troll and 2 other dudes, you're not even sure to have enough food left in the yard to let Troll live several turns.
I actually think you have to choose between Troll and Menagerie, even though both use the same dredge cards. Those 2 pay-offs are anti-synergistic.
I have not liked Charnel Troll at all. It's much harder to fuel than it appears to be, it taxes the graveyard so heavily that you can't use it as a meaningful resource for anything else, and the payoff is "just" an overstated 3-mana beater. It's really hard to find a way to play enough high-pressure cards to close out a game before Troll is a liability while still playing anemic enablers like Stitcher's Supplier to play Troll on-curve while still having enough total resources to do anything.
I think you have it dead backwards when you call Troll an Undergrowth payoff. It hurts all your other Undergrowth cards.
Here are the real Undergrowth payoffs in no particular order:
There are less important ones like Kraul Harpooner and ones I can't figure out like Mausoleum Secrets.
But you see how Charnel Troll messes with all of these? As a matter of fact, I would point-blank say that if you play Charnel Troll you cannot play any other Undergrowth effects. They all scale so drastically that even small incremental chewing is more disruptive than you'd think.
This is my current list.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Glowspore Shaman
2 Kraul Harpooner
4 Plaguecrafter
4 Jadelight Ranger
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Josu Vess, Lich Knight
2 Izoni, Thousand-Eyed
2 Molderhulk
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Find // Finality
Lands (23)
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Memorial to Folly
3 Swamp
9 Forest
4 Duress
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Cast Down
1 Necrotic Wound
1 Golden Demise
1 Thrashing Brontodon
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Vraska's Contempt
1 Vivien Reid
1 Molderhulk
Key interactions:
Cards to consider:
Key considerations:
Jund with Squee, the Immortal?
Because it doesn't do anything on entry and can be removed after you exile the first or discard the first creature to it.