I'm proposing more of a permission based Teachings. Cryptic Relic and the like are ok, but I think Teachings can exist as a permission based deck.
That's how the deck started to begin with. As a Draw-Go style deck, that just happened to grow more and more into a good stuff deck (running black can do that to a deck).
It can a lot of counters, and a lot of cantrips- a lot of which were removed when Rav rotated, but Cryptic Command is so good, the deck can still survive as control deck.
The fact that MUC is strong, just goes to show that UB Teachings can survive, since it can use every weapon that Sonic Boom does, but with a tad(LOT) more versatility.
Finkels are too slow- sadly. Every spell I can think of will help out more: Mulldrifter, Think Twice, Careful Consideration, Ponder, etc... He's too slow, and he's too fragile (despite being terror-proof). In an BU aggro-control, like maybe UB Korlash Control, he might find a home, since he's an easy drop (he's better than Graveborn anyways), and can even do some fun stuff with Warhammer, etc.
I have a problem of running into time during Friday Night Magics. Sometimes opponents take tons of time to shuffle, and I don't want to be a dick at a FNM and tell them to be faster. So what happens is that instead of getting the win (in game 3 or something, only needing like 1-2 turns extra), I get a game tie. Anyone else have this problem?
yes and to suffle i think is like 3-5 minutes top. and a play if i'm correct(if not, please tell me) is like a minute or so. so your opponent should'nt take too long until you call a judge
Thye judge can add extra time to the round (before time and 5 turns is then called).
He can also issue cautions, warnings, DQ.
Call the judge, it's always correct to do this if you believe the opponenet is taking too long (>3min's intentionally and/or doesn't heed your "hurry up dude").
Extirpate targets:
Cryptic Command/Grim Harvest/Mystical Teachings - it's always one of those, depending on where the game is at.
Possibly Extirpate your opponent's Extirpate, just like Wafo-Tapa did to Heezy in the Yokohoma semi finals.
Call the judge, it's always correct to do this if you believe the opponenet is taking too long (>3min's intentionally and/or doesn't heed your "hurry up dude").
The judge at our store is the store owner who is laid back and doesn't really know the rules (he didn't even know the ruling on suspend + teferi!)
Anyways on to the topic of bad matchups, I have to say that Sonic Boom is one of them. How about 4 Scragnoth in the sideboard? If we can draw two early, then it should be good game for them? Scragnoth + Extirpates + Aeon Chroniclers + Pull from Eternity (and get rid of your removal suite). I don't think they're gonna sideboard in the Razormanes for them either.
Please don't double post. There is an EDIT feature located in the bottom right section of your post.
-Iceman8352
but sonic boom is not as bad as you may think, we have the advantage to not run out of gas, and after board, extirpate their guils and they basically have nothing to win with anymore
Remember, though, that the Lorwyn Incarnations are shuffled back into the library when they hit the graveyard, so you'll need to be sure to have the Extirpate in hand after countering/otherwise dealing with the Guile. This makes it at least slightly more difficult; if you don't have Extirpate in hand, you might be able to Teachings for it, but Teachings (unlike Extirpate) can be countered.
thats true, but if you have your own teferi out it might be a little easier, i board 1 teferi and play 2 now
Yeah but resolving that Teferi is gonna be very hard to do. They have more card advantage than you, since their draw spells cost 1 mana and have suspend, and their other draw spell costs 2 mana, while yours cost 4. The reason I say Scragnoth over Quagnoth is that not only does Scragnoth come out a turn earlier, but it also has protection blue. Meaning, even if they resolve a Guile (and a smart player WILL resolve a Guile) or Aeon Chronicler, they can't block you. Quagnoth of course, has the benefit of being good against Sonic Boom, AND discard matchups (forcing them to waste extirpate on your Quagnoth or forcing them to waste discard). I don't much like Quagnoth against Pickles actually, especially the UW version, because Shapeshifter just copies him and blocks every turn until they Pickles lock you. Detritivore is much better against UW pickles.
i'd think quagnoth, its 1 more mana, but a bigger body, every point counts, a 5 turn clock is better than a 7 turn clock IMO
but sonic boom is not as bad as you may think, we have the advantage to not run out of gas, and after board, extirpate their guils and they basically have nothing to win with anymore
you can combat their urza's factories, you can kill teferi and chronicler easy, and they cant draw permission all the time
They have a pretty big advantange to not run out of gas. If Guile is resolved and you try to kill it with a Tendrils or something, it could mean that they now have a Tendrils to use against you. The thing is, even if you do manage to extirpate 2 kinds of their 4-5 different counterspells, they will still have plenty of gas to stall out the game long enough so that within tournament standards, it will be a draw atleast. Scragnoth + Quagnoth are needed to make sure that you can end the game as soon as possible.
[quote=zenmaster;/comments/2393120]At 5 mana he probably won't have a creature out. If anything, it will be a Teferi and you can't counter anything.
venser? i think against sonic boom, just play more teferi, and the game will be like old school u/b mirror, drop land and go, then who ever comes out teferi first without get countered, wins
Extirpate (3-4 ideal) - threat removal, maximum information
Removal - to answer: Teferi, Sower of Temptation/Aeon Chronicler, Guile
Grim Harvest
-Teferi
-Venser
-Shriekmaw
-Tarmogoyf - 2 mana threat
-Vesuvan Shapeshifter/Brine Elemental lock -> if it's sideboarded
Jace Beleren
Cryptic Command
Quagnoth/Sulfur Elemental - viable options for threats
Those are what matter. You want to play an aggressive/disruption role after sideboard. Attempting to match counters with this deck is foolish. You will have less of them, more expensive counters, less blue mana and less to draw into.
Play out threats, card drawing and Extirpate. Trickery and Cryptic Command first, Guile needs to be removed ASAP but he won't get in the yard in a hurry.
I've always found it too slow to be effective. Some players like it perhaps, just doesn't cut it for me. Can't be recurred, can't be protected cheaply and late enough in the game they'll let it through and throw away spare Guile's and Think Twice and land if it doesn't matter to them.
Was great in TPF block and Rav with Xth because counter-control had died.
Additionally, you can't cast it if there's a morph and 1U on the table - Willbender, which most players in the know have kept in their SB's ala Wafo-Tapa from the GP.
I actually think against Sonic Boom, 4 Extirpates total would actually cut it. No real need for Scragnoth/Quagnoth. With 4 extirpates you can get rid of most of their stuff, hopefully you can hit Cryptic Command and Guiles. The best part really is to be able to look at their hand so you can see how much counter backup they really have. That way, you can start playing Mystical Teachings for more extirpates or just start putting through some counter bait.
ive seen some people splashing black for mystical teachings and extirpate, and even damnation in sonic boom
thats why i thought haunting hymn might be good
It will make it less good against other counterspell decks. More susceptible to Detritivore as well. Personally, I would rather play against this version than the straight up blue (Deserts will also have to be taken out because they will screw the mana base).
I just played against MUC 20-23 counterspells deck.
Rune snag, delay, cancel, trickery, command, pact, guile, teferi, whelk, persuasion, possession. That was his deck.
I'm only running 5 counterspells. He pact my pact, so I lost that counter war, however I commanded his teferi, and commanded his delay on that command, so he lost 2 cards and I drew 2 cards. So I was winning the play.
However I lost after he stole my factory and resolved a guile, and trickeried my trisk the turn before I died.
G2 I sided in 4 quagnoth and 4 riftwatcher just to go more aggro. Also got an extirpate which I didn't use. I won the game from an early goyf. It was only 3/4 but he couldn't deal with it until he was down to 6 life. Thank god I run expanse or it would only have been 2/3. I won the game with quagnoth in the end.
We'd played for over 90 minutes and he had to leave.
In control MUs like this, skill helps, but the real decider is who has more mana. I tend to run a few less lands than usual, but in these MUs, I sometimes regret it. Storage lands are your best friend here too, allowing you to do silly things like cast Take Possession AND play Cryptic Command AND have mana left for a Cancel. I've found that storage lands usually help out more than factories in these battles, although Take Possession might just be a new SB friend in the MU, where it wasn't really needed before. Taking Teferi, or Factory is just so effective at breaking the stalemate.
Quagnoth (who is strictly better than Scragnoth... I don't understand an argument for him? because he costs 1 less? Pro blue- Quagnoth has SHROUD?) is not needed at all imho. Discard is hardly ever played anymore, since most Rack variants have just stopped bothering with it, and just run Rock cards. It would be better to run dodecapod, since it drops as a palpable threat, instead of just sitting in your hand as insurance against Augur or something, while they Thoughtseize your good stuff. Aeon Chronicler, Extirpate, and perhaps even Sudden Death, Mouth of Ronom, Take Possession, or Faerie Conclave will all help your control MUs...
Also, Sonic Boom with splashes of black for Mystical Teachings, Damnation, and Extirpate is... not Sonic Boom, it's UB Teachings (although a little more counter-heavy).
Edit: Willbender is the reason I like the thought of a singleton Mouth. Tolaria West can't be countered, and it fetches the uncounterable, un-Willbenderable Mouth of Ronom. It's a nice answer if Teferi needs to be killed, and they have a suspicious morph... Having them Willbender an Extirpate could really ruin your game.
Quagnoth (who is strictly better than Scragnoth... I don't understand an argument for him? because he costs 1 less? Pro blue- Quagnoth has SHROUD?)
The pro blue means that when they sideboard in Aeon Chroniclers, they still can't block Scragnoth. Whereas, once Aeon Chronicler resolves against Quagnoth, they just got a huge 6/6 7/7 that can instantly kill it if it tries to attack again. Guile also can block Quagnoth all day.
I just played against MUC 20-23 counterspells deck.
Rune snag, delay, cancel, trickery, command, pact, guile, teferi, whelk, persuasion, possession. That was his deck.
I'm only running 5 counterspells. He pact my pact, so I lost that counter war, however I commanded his teferi, and commanded his delay on that command, so he lost 2 cards and I drew 2 cards. So I was winning the play.
However I lost after he stole my factory and resolved a guile, and trickeried my trisk the turn before I died.
G2 I sided in 4 quagnoth and 4 riftwatcher just to go more aggro. Also got an extirpate which I didn't use. I won the game from an early goyf. It was only 3/4 but he couldn't deal with it until he was down to 6 life. Thank god I run expanse or it would only have been 2/3. I won the game with quagnoth in the end.
We'd played for over 90 minutes and he had to leave.
Yeah early Goyf definitely helps, you'd think he'd have a Venser though. Honestly I don't see how a Goyf can even land since they play with Remove Souls and Goyf can't come online unless you have a vivid land first turn, or a second turn Prismatic Lens (thats not countered) and a Goyf (that's not countered).
Also are you saying that you used Cryptic Command on a Teferi to return it to hand? He didn't have a counterspell? I don't understand how you commanded a delay with that same command then. You realize that with Teferi in play, you can't counter a Delay because you can't play instants? It sounds like he delayed something with a Teferi in play, and then you subsequently played a Cryptic Command for Delay (illegal play).
I can't exactly remember how I got goyf to stick. Pretty sure he was somehow tapped out. Must have countered something else of mine. Trickery on a lens or something.
The pro blue means that when they sideboard in Aeon Chroniclers, they still can't block Scragnoth. Whereas, once Aeon Chronicler resolves against Quagnoth, they just got a huge 6/6 7/7 that can instantly kill it if it tries to attack again. Guile also can block Quagnoth all day.
Regardless- you should be packing your own Aeon chroniclers, and in the scenario you described, they would just attack with a bigger, better creature. Plus, Cryptic Command still fogs you out, and any mass removal still kills him. I just don't feel he is an answer to the meta at all.
Also, why would Extirpate ruin your game?
Knowing rules is tech, here ;)So, if they Willbender your Extirpate, you can search your hand (DO NOT REVEAL IT TO THEM IF IT'S YOUR OWN EXTIRPATE!!!!) and library choosing not to find any other copy of the Extirpated spell, since you still control the Extirpate and make all choices for it.
The cards in the 'yard are all gone, but those in hand and library are still safe.
I love you.
But on a slightly better note, what do you guys think of the Akroma/grim harvest recursion? I personally love it. And I would like to hear your opinions on her as a finisher.
But on a slightly better note, what do you guys think of the Akroma/grim harvest recursion? I personally love it. And I would like to hear your opinions on her as a finisher.
Slow in my opinion. Although she's a great finisher and I'd love to play her, from testing it feels like I need more removal than finishers. Hellkite is my finisher and it seems to be great so far.
Also are you saying that you used Cryptic Command on a Teferi to return it to hand? He didn't have a counterspell? I don't understand how you commanded a delay with that same command then. You realize that with Teferi in play, you can't counter a Delay because you can't play instants? It sounds like he delayed something with a Teferi in play, and then you subsequently played a Cryptic Command for Delay (illegal play).
I think what he's saying is this:
His opponent attempted to play Teferi.
Onlainari played Cryptic Command, choosing to counter Teferi and cantrip.
Opponent attempts to play Delay on Cryptic Command.
Onlainari plays another Cryptic Command, choosing to counter Delay and cantrip.
His opponent lost 2 cards (Teferi, Delay) and Onlainari drew 2 cards from the Cantrip Commands.
Teferi never hit the table.
That's how the deck started to begin with. As a Draw-Go style deck, that just happened to grow more and more into a good stuff deck (running black can do that to a deck).
It can a lot of counters, and a lot of cantrips- a lot of which were removed when Rav rotated, but Cryptic Command is so good, the deck can still survive as control deck.
The fact that MUC is strong, just goes to show that UB Teachings can survive, since it can use every weapon that Sonic Boom does, but with a tad(LOT) more versatility.
Finkels are too slow- sadly. Every spell I can think of will help out more: Mulldrifter, Think Twice, Careful Consideration, Ponder, etc... He's too slow, and he's too fragile (despite being terror-proof). In an BU aggro-control, like maybe UB Korlash Control, he might find a home, since he's an easy drop (he's better than Graveborn anyways), and can even do some fun stuff with Warhammer, etc.
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But the judge can't really do anything can they? I mean there isn't a real limit to the amount of time a player can play a turn right?
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He can also issue cautions, warnings, DQ.
Call the judge, it's always correct to do this if you believe the opponenet is taking too long (>3min's intentionally and/or doesn't heed your "hurry up dude").
Extirpate targets:
Cryptic Command/Grim Harvest/Mystical Teachings - it's always one of those, depending on where the game is at.
Possibly Extirpate your opponent's Extirpate, just like Wafo-Tapa did to Heezy in the Yokohoma semi finals.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
The judge at our store is the store owner who is laid back and doesn't really know the rules (he didn't even know the ruling on suspend + teferi!)
Anyways on to the topic of bad matchups, I have to say that Sonic Boom is one of them. How about 4 Scragnoth in the sideboard? If we can draw two early, then it should be good game for them? Scragnoth + Extirpates + Aeon Chroniclers + Pull from Eternity (and get rid of your removal suite). I don't think they're gonna sideboard in the Razormanes for them either.
Please don't double post. There is an EDIT feature located in the bottom right section of your post.
-Iceman8352
Remember, though, that the Lorwyn Incarnations are shuffled back into the library when they hit the graveyard, so you'll need to be sure to have the Extirpate in hand after countering/otherwise dealing with the Guile. This makes it at least slightly more difficult; if you don't have Extirpate in hand, you might be able to Teachings for it, but Teachings (unlike Extirpate) can be countered.
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At 5 mana he probably won't have a creature out. If anything, it will be a Teferi and you can't counter anything.
Yeah but resolving that Teferi is gonna be very hard to do. They have more card advantage than you, since their draw spells cost 1 mana and have suspend, and their other draw spell costs 2 mana, while yours cost 4. The reason I say Scragnoth over Quagnoth is that not only does Scragnoth come out a turn earlier, but it also has protection blue. Meaning, even if they resolve a Guile (and a smart player WILL resolve a Guile) or Aeon Chronicler, they can't block you. Quagnoth of course, has the benefit of being good against Sonic Boom, AND discard matchups (forcing them to waste extirpate on your Quagnoth or forcing them to waste discard). I don't much like Quagnoth against Pickles actually, especially the UW version, because Shapeshifter just copies him and blocks every turn until they Pickles lock you. Detritivore is much better against UW pickles.
They have a pretty big advantange to not run out of gas. If Guile is resolved and you try to kill it with a Tendrils or something, it could mean that they now have a Tendrils to use against you. The thing is, even if you do manage to extirpate 2 kinds of their 4-5 different counterspells, they will still have plenty of gas to stall out the game long enough so that within tournament standards, it will be a draw atleast. Scragnoth + Quagnoth are needed to make sure that you can end the game as soon as possible.
venser? i think against sonic boom, just play more teferi, and the game will be like old school u/b mirror, drop land and go, then who ever comes out teferi first without get countered, wins
Extirpate (3-4 ideal) - threat removal, maximum information
Removal - to answer: Teferi, Sower of Temptation/Aeon Chronicler, Guile
Grim Harvest
-Teferi
-Venser
-Shriekmaw
-Tarmogoyf - 2 mana threat
-Vesuvan Shapeshifter/Brine Elemental lock -> if it's sideboarded
Jace Beleren
Cryptic Command
Quagnoth/Sulfur Elemental - viable options for threats
Those are what matter. You want to play an aggressive/disruption role after sideboard. Attempting to match counters with this deck is foolish. You will have less of them, more expensive counters, less blue mana and less to draw into.
Play out threats, card drawing and Extirpate. Trickery and Cryptic Command first, Guile needs to be removed ASAP but he won't get in the yard in a hurry.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
Was great in TPF block and Rav with Xth because counter-control had died.
Additionally, you can't cast it if there's a morph and 1U on the table - Willbender, which most players in the know have kept in their SB's ala Wafo-Tapa from the GP.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
It will make it less good against other counterspell decks. More susceptible to Detritivore as well. Personally, I would rather play against this version than the straight up blue (Deserts will also have to be taken out because they will screw the mana base).
Rune snag, delay, cancel, trickery, command, pact, guile, teferi, whelk, persuasion, possession. That was his deck.
I'm only running 5 counterspells. He pact my pact, so I lost that counter war, however I commanded his teferi, and commanded his delay on that command, so he lost 2 cards and I drew 2 cards. So I was winning the play.
However I lost after he stole my factory and resolved a guile, and trickeried my trisk the turn before I died.
G2 I sided in 4 quagnoth and 4 riftwatcher just to go more aggro. Also got an extirpate which I didn't use. I won the game from an early goyf. It was only 3/4 but he couldn't deal with it until he was down to 6 life. Thank god I run expanse or it would only have been 2/3. I won the game with quagnoth in the end.
We'd played for over 90 minutes and he had to leave.
Quagnoth (who is strictly better than Scragnoth... I don't understand an argument for him? because he costs 1 less? Pro blue- Quagnoth has SHROUD?) is not needed at all imho. Discard is hardly ever played anymore, since most Rack variants have just stopped bothering with it, and just run Rock cards. It would be better to run dodecapod, since it drops as a palpable threat, instead of just sitting in your hand as insurance against Augur or something, while they Thoughtseize your good stuff. Aeon Chronicler, Extirpate, and perhaps even Sudden Death, Mouth of Ronom, Take Possession, or Faerie Conclave will all help your control MUs...
Also, Sonic Boom with splashes of black for Mystical Teachings, Damnation, and Extirpate is... not Sonic Boom, it's UB Teachings (although a little more counter-heavy).
Edit: Willbender is the reason I like the thought of a singleton Mouth. Tolaria West can't be countered, and it fetches the uncounterable, un-Willbenderable Mouth of Ronom. It's a nice answer if Teferi needs to be killed, and they have a suspicious morph... Having them Willbender an Extirpate could really ruin your game.
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The pro blue means that when they sideboard in Aeon Chroniclers, they still can't block Scragnoth. Whereas, once Aeon Chronicler resolves against Quagnoth, they just got a huge 6/6 7/7 that can instantly kill it if it tries to attack again. Guile also can block Quagnoth all day.
Yeah early Goyf definitely helps, you'd think he'd have a Venser though. Honestly I don't see how a Goyf can even land since they play with Remove Souls and Goyf can't come online unless you have a vivid land first turn, or a second turn Prismatic Lens (thats not countered) and a Goyf (that's not countered).
Also are you saying that you used Cryptic Command on a Teferi to return it to hand? He didn't have a counterspell? I don't understand how you commanded a delay with that same command then. You realize that with Teferi in play, you can't counter a Delay because you can't play instants? It sounds like he delayed something with a Teferi in play, and then you subsequently played a Cryptic Command for Delay (illegal play).
Regardless- you should be packing your own Aeon chroniclers, and in the scenario you described, they would just attack with a bigger, better creature. Plus, Cryptic Command still fogs you out, and any mass removal still kills him. I just don't feel he is an answer to the meta at all.
Eyes of the Wisent would be better.
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I love you.
But on a slightly better note, what do you guys think of the Akroma/grim harvest recursion? I personally love it. And I would like to hear your opinions on her as a finisher.
Slow in my opinion. Although she's a great finisher and I'd love to play her, from testing it feels like I need more removal than finishers. Hellkite is my finisher and it seems to be great so far.
I think what he's saying is this:
His opponent attempted to play Teferi.
Onlainari played Cryptic Command, choosing to counter Teferi and cantrip.
Opponent attempts to play Delay on Cryptic Command.
Onlainari plays another Cryptic Command, choosing to counter Delay and cantrip.
His opponent lost 2 cards (Teferi, Delay) and Onlainari drew 2 cards from the Cantrip Commands.
Teferi never hit the table.
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