So i´d like to know how good are this decks WW, BG elves, Blink, GB Rack matchups and what´s the game-plan, sideboarding in those matches.
B/G Elves can overwhelm you early before you can get ahead in cards and tempo, or generate enough blockers, but with Damnation backing everything up... I feel the match up is considerably in your favor post-sideboarding.
Kithkan WW is a joke. Basically, your 2-for-1 them with your creatures, till they run out of creatures, then you go offensive.
Also what deck is this decks worst matchup?
From my testing ---- Red based decks with a lot of burn in them, such as Golbins W/12+ burn ... or similiar.
I've not played against a Rack deck yet, but I don't feel that it'd be much of a problem if your not mana screwed early by smallpox.
The deck's worst match-up is a lucky Rg player (generally a good match-up) or a very good teachings player (generally a good match-up). The deck doesn't really have bad match-ups vs the mainstream decks.
Yeah the only thing that's really a problem in the Rg match up is Troll Ascetic. I've been running into a lot of people who play him in RG, but honestly those decks are really slow, having to play Expanse to support Troll and often running Treetop Village too. I noticed though if the list had Damnation in the board it's not as large a problem, but honestly I'm not that worried about those sort of decks, they tend to over roll to everything else, saccing a lot of speed for Troll.
Yeah the only thing that's really a problem in the Rg match up is Troll Ascetic. I've been running into a lot of people who play him in RG, but honestly those decks are really slow, having to play Expanse to support Troll and often running Treetop Village too. I noticed though if the list had Damnation in the board it's not as large a problem, but honestly I'm not that worried about those sort of decks, they tend to over roll to everything else, saccing a lot of speed for Troll.
I didn't know of any lists of Rg that run Troll. Either way I don't think it's too much of a problem. There deck is slowed down so you can prob just hold them off with epochrasite and/or phyrexian ironfoot.
I didn't know of any lists of Rg that run Troll. Either way I don't think it's too much of a problem. There deck is slowed down so you can prob just hold them off with epochrasite and/or phyrexian ironfoot.
Yeah most of the time you can, and they're certainly not optimized lists. I'd been seeing them often online and at local shops. Just doing random games here and there with the deck. What's made them most annoying is dealing with Troll, Threaten and Ancient Grudge in game 2 though.
I played the Virginia winning deck list last night at my FNM and went 5-0-1! The deck was great. The only changes I made was to the SB. I took the x3 bottle gnomes and x1 extirpate and added x4 dodecapod (as my meta is full of G/B tarmorack). The deck worked awesome all night. The only tough match up I faced was G/W/B Doran deck (it was the list that won kentucky states) overall I will continue to play this deck as i feel it is the best deck in standard right now.
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I didn't know of any lists of Rg that run Troll. Either way I don't think it's too much of a problem. There deck is slowed down so you can prob just hold them off with epochrasite and/or phyrexian ironfoot.
Really? I'd think they could just board Ancient Grudges.
I'm getting owned by hand denial. How do you deal with turn one Thoughtsieze followed by any other hand disruption after that?
They rape my good cards and I'm usually left with land and a Shreikmaw, since their creatures are mostly black with he exception of 'goyf.
In the MWS world, for many players, winning also makes you a noob.
The same applies to:
-Knowing the rules.
-Netdecking.
-Not netdecking.
-Using old versions of a card (yeah, it has hapenned to me: "Ugh... ugly pic noob")
-Knowing English.
-Using phases.
-Countering spells.
<@MarkRosewater> THis is a secret we've carefully guarded but for this chat I'm going to spill the beans.
<@MarkRosewater> Some cards in Magic are better than others.
<@MarkRosewater> Ssh, don't tell anyone.
'With the exception of Goyf'...would you be targeting something else if Goyf was on the table anyway? I doubt it. I don't think hand disruption is a big deal of this deck at all. It only takes one Mannequin, one Grim Harvest, or one Mulldrifter to negate alot of their discard. Considering that you have 4 of each of those, you should be okay. I mean, sometimes they're just going to draw alot of discard and a couple of Racks and beat you, but this shouldn't be that frequent of an occurrence.
I had some problems against mono green gauntlet treefolk deck. Bringing in damnation helped in that match up.
The other deck I had a problem against was a goblin recursion deck. It drop consistent annoying (small)bombs. It kept on coming and shriekmaw couldn't answer any of their threats. Damnation from side was extremely helpful here as well. Lol.
also mono white snow control was a bit of a problem. first game is a pain, depending how you play your cards. But after board. You can bring in pithing needles, but your recursion is still pissed on by oblivion ring and their are so many activated abilities that pithing needle alone can't handle.
Here is a list i have come up with. It is a little strange, but i want to get some opinions. I won't be able to get epochrasites before i want to play the deck. I may be able to get ironfoots, but i am not sure if i can get those either. The biggest question i have: What do you think?
Creatures: 19
1 Benthicore or Wydwen (I like benthicore, but i don't know if it costs too much for the deck)
2 Mournwhelk - Great against control.
4 Shriekmaw - Duh, an amazing card.
4 Riftwing Cloudskate - I like to bounce things
4 Aethersnipe - See above
4 Mulldrifter - drawing cards = win
Spells: 16
1 Profane Command - A really good card. kill, recursion, kill spell
2 Eyebilght's Ending - Kills almost everything
2 Grim Harvest - A really good recursion spell late game
4 Makeshift Mannequin - The namesake of the deck
3 Cryptic Command - I like tapping, bouncing, countering and drawing. Doing 2 of four... Even better.
4 Cruel Edict - Helps against decks that run untargetable or really big creatures.
25 lands including 3 conclave and 2 urza's factory.
SB:
1 Deathmark - Helps against kithkin and doran. Want more, not sure how to get them in.
2 Sudden death - I was originally thinking help against Tieg, but maybe deathmark is better.
4 Bottle gnomes - Red kills this deck. Bottle gnomes helps a lot.
3 Damnation - Anti rush-aggro.
2 Teferi - Not sure if this is the right choice, but it helps against couterspell decks, and against decks that rely on suspend (if there are any)
2 Aeon chronicler - helps in the mirror, and other control mathups. Great with recuring mulldrifters.
1 Mournwhelk - Great in the mirror and in other control matchups. Card advantage = the win.
I am not sure on all of the choices, and would like some input. Also want sower, but not sure if it is good in this build.
Yeah the grudges are good vs ironfoot, but you also get to bring in gnomes and some damnation. The match-up is approached differently after boarding.
Honestly... after some experimentation... The Gnomes aren't good enough vs R/G Aggro... While the life swing is very, very good... The burn still tends too be a bit hard to deal with, and is usually enough to put us behind the 8-ball.
Bottle Gnomes are not improving the match up nearly as much as it should.
Maybe it's time to consider other ideas? IE: Urborgs + Tendrils + Loxodon's? Maybe something else...?
Honestly... after some experimentation... The Gnomes aren't good enough vs R/G Aggro... While the life swing is very, very good... The burn still tends too be a bit hard to deal with, and is usually enough to put us behind the 8-ball.
Bottle Gnomes are not improving the match up nearly as much as it should.
Maybe it's time to consider other ideas? IE: Urborgs + Tendrils + Loxodon's? Maybe something else...?
Loxodon Warhammer isn't too bad actually, in fact one of the undefeated lists from the Grand Prix going on had them in the main. If red is really a problem I'd look there first. The Tendrils suit is good, but I like it a lot better in Teachings were you can better control when you have the pieces. Greater Gargadon puts a halt to Tendrils so it's harder to take advantage of openings with this deck. True you draw a lot of cards, but it's not as it is with Teaching EOT for Tendrils then gaining a back breaking amount of life.
Honestly... after some experimentation... The Gnomes aren't good enough vs R/G Aggro... While the life swing is very, very good... The burn still tends too be a bit hard to deal with, and is usually enough to put us behind the 8-ball.
Bottle Gnomes are not improving the match up nearly as much as it should.
Maybe it's time to consider other ideas? IE: Urborgs + Tendrils + Loxodon's? Maybe something else...?
You really didn't like the gnomes vs Rg aggro? I mean, I thought they were fine, especially with grim harvest. Warhammer definately has merit though. As has been said, Coimbra played two in his list (though 24 isn't nearly enough land. He should be running at least 25. I talk about it with Mascioli.
You really didn't like the gnomes vs Rg aggro? I mean, I thought they were fine, especially with grim harvest. Warhammer definately has merit though. As has been said, Coimbra played two in his list (though 24 isn't nearly enough land. He should be running at least 25. I talk about it with Mascioli.
I think Warhammers is a serious contender in the deck.
As far as the 24 lands vs 25 lands vs 26 lands issues.... Coimbra is running my exact decklist [75 card exact] at that GP, that I made 2nd place at CO States with. That's why he has 24 lands. But, you might be right. I'm 50/50 on the issue of 24 vs 25 at this point.
Yeah I really think you need at least 25 lands in this deck. You just want to be making drops every turn. I mena, I'm partial to the full 26 but I can see going down to 25. 24 is just so low though.
From playtesting both within my local group as well as goldfishing a bit online, 24 lands just doesn't cut it most of the time. I've lost too many games because I couldn't get the 3rd/4th land that I needed. Especially with the conclaves and the mouths, I would really want at least 25 lands, maybe the 26th.
I really like Coimbra's list, aside from the amount of lands. However, the Nekrataals seem really out of place. But the hammer, so many times i've had only a couple creatures out, gotten that, and crushed face, or turned the tides on an aggro matchup.
I think 25 land is the right number to have for this deck. I cut a Mouth of Ronom to add another Grim Harvest to the deck to improve my odds at recursion. Currently I am debating whether to main deck 2 Loxodon Warhammers, I am unsure what to cut, however.
I think 25 land is the right number to have for this deck. I cut a Mouth of Ronom to add another Grim Harvest to the deck to improve my odds at recursion. Currently I am debating whether to main deck 2 Loxodon Warhammers, I am unsure what to cut, however.
I think if you're going to run the hammer, two isn't enough. But keep in mind that you also can't equip the lox to any creature that you resurrect with mannequin.
edit: After having played against many a BGW doran deck, I'm going to try putting sudden spoiling in the side.
Evil is boring. The universe is friendly. Life is on your side. Joy is your birthright. Cynicism is idiotic. Fear is a bad habit. Despair is lazy. In fact, all of creation wants you to succeed. Act as if the universe is a prodigious miracle created for your amusement and illumination. Assume that secret helpers are working behind the scenes to assist you in turning into the gorgeous masterpiece you were born to be. . . Life always gives you exactly what you need, exactly when you need it.
Mind Stone seems wrong. The deck already has 12 things to cast on turn 2, so the acceleration aspect is not as meaningful (although I'm sure it helps a lot when boarding in the Damnations), and the deck is so mana-hungry I don't imagine I would ever sac the stone to draw a card.
I haven't tested with Mind Stone yet. I'm just theorizing.
Actually, Deathmark does an excellent job of dealing with that deck as well.
but deathmark is a sorcery that doesn't have the potential of a one-sided wrath. Plus sudden spoiling can't be responded to except with morph.
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Evil is boring. The universe is friendly. Life is on your side. Joy is your birthright. Cynicism is idiotic. Fear is a bad habit. Despair is lazy. In fact, all of creation wants you to succeed. Act as if the universe is a prodigious miracle created for your amusement and illumination. Assume that secret helpers are working behind the scenes to assist you in turning into the gorgeous masterpiece you were born to be. . . Life always gives you exactly what you need, exactly when you need it.
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B/G Elves can overwhelm you early before you can get ahead in cards and tempo, or generate enough blockers, but with Damnation backing everything up... I feel the match up is considerably in your favor post-sideboarding.
Kithkan WW is a joke. Basically, your 2-for-1 them with your creatures, till they run out of creatures, then you go offensive.
From my testing ---- Red based decks with a lot of burn in them, such as Golbins W/12+ burn ... or similiar.
I've not played against a Rack deck yet, but I don't feel that it'd be much of a problem if your not mana screwed early by smallpox.
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Not unless you want too integrate Urborgs into it as well.
Chris
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Which would, of course, hurt the deck's consistency.
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I didn't know of any lists of Rg that run Troll. Either way I don't think it's too much of a problem. There deck is slowed down so you can prob just hold them off with epochrasite and/or phyrexian ironfoot.
Yeah most of the time you can, and they're certainly not optimized lists. I'd been seeing them often online and at local shops. Just doing random games here and there with the deck. What's made them most annoying is dealing with Troll, Threaten and Ancient Grudge in game 2 though.
Really? I'd think they could just board Ancient Grudges.
They rape my good cards and I'm usually left with land and a Shreikmaw, since their creatures are mostly black with he exception of 'goyf.
The other deck I had a problem against was a goblin recursion deck. It drop consistent annoying (small)bombs. It kept on coming and shriekmaw couldn't answer any of their threats. Damnation from side was extremely helpful here as well. Lol.
also mono white snow control was a bit of a problem. first game is a pain, depending how you play your cards. But after board. You can bring in pithing needles, but your recursion is still pissed on by oblivion ring and their are so many activated abilities that pithing needle alone can't handle.
Just play testing results I wanted to post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=35073
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Creatures: 19
1 Benthicore or Wydwen (I like benthicore, but i don't know if it costs too much for the deck)
2 Mournwhelk - Great against control.
4 Shriekmaw - Duh, an amazing card.
4 Riftwing Cloudskate - I like to bounce things
4 Aethersnipe - See above
4 Mulldrifter - drawing cards = win
Spells: 16
1 Profane Command - A really good card. kill, recursion, kill spell
2 Eyebilght's Ending - Kills almost everything
2 Grim Harvest - A really good recursion spell late game
4 Makeshift Mannequin - The namesake of the deck
3 Cryptic Command - I like tapping, bouncing, countering and drawing. Doing 2 of four... Even better.
4 Cruel Edict - Helps against decks that run untargetable or really big creatures.
25 lands including 3 conclave and 2 urza's factory.
SB:
1 Deathmark - Helps against kithkin and doran. Want more, not sure how to get them in.
2 Sudden death - I was originally thinking help against Tieg, but maybe deathmark is better.
4 Bottle gnomes - Red kills this deck. Bottle gnomes helps a lot.
3 Damnation - Anti rush-aggro.
2 Teferi - Not sure if this is the right choice, but it helps against couterspell decks, and against decks that rely on suspend (if there are any)
2 Aeon chronicler - helps in the mirror, and other control mathups. Great with recuring mulldrifters.
1 Mournwhelk - Great in the mirror and in other control matchups. Card advantage = the win.
I am not sure on all of the choices, and would like some input. Also want sower, but not sure if it is good in this build.
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Honestly... after some experimentation... The Gnomes aren't good enough vs R/G Aggro... While the life swing is very, very good... The burn still tends too be a bit hard to deal with, and is usually enough to put us behind the 8-ball.
Bottle Gnomes are not improving the match up nearly as much as it should.
Maybe it's time to consider other ideas? IE: Urborgs + Tendrils + Loxodon's? Maybe something else...?
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Loxodon Warhammer isn't too bad actually, in fact one of the undefeated lists from the Grand Prix going on had them in the main. If red is really a problem I'd look there first. The Tendrils suit is good, but I like it a lot better in Teachings were you can better control when you have the pieces. Greater Gargadon puts a halt to Tendrils so it's harder to take advantage of openings with this deck. True you draw a lot of cards, but it's not as it is with Teaching EOT for Tendrils then gaining a back breaking amount of life.
You really didn't like the gnomes vs Rg aggro? I mean, I thought they were fine, especially with grim harvest. Warhammer definately has merit though. As has been said, Coimbra played two in his list (though 24 isn't nearly enough land. He should be running at least 25. I talk about it with Mascioli.
I think Warhammers is a serious contender in the deck.
As far as the 24 lands vs 25 lands vs 26 lands issues.... Coimbra is running my exact decklist [75 card exact] at that GP, that I made 2nd place at CO States with. That's why he has 24 lands. But, you might be right. I'm 50/50 on the issue of 24 vs 25 at this point.
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I really like Coimbra's list, aside from the amount of lands. However, the Nekrataals seem really out of place. But the hammer, so many times i've had only a couple creatures out, gotten that, and crushed face, or turned the tides on an aggro matchup.
I think if you're going to run the hammer, two isn't enough. But keep in mind that you also can't equip the lox to any creature that you resurrect with mannequin.
edit: After having played against many a BGW doran deck, I'm going to try putting sudden spoiling in the side.
I haven't tested with Mind Stone yet. I'm just theorizing.
Actually, Deathmark does an excellent job of dealing with that deck as well.
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but deathmark is a sorcery that doesn't have the potential of a one-sided wrath. Plus sudden spoiling can't be responded to except with morph.