True the deck doesn't have to abuse Mulldrifter to win all the time, but the deck is centered around when able abusing the CA you can net from him. That's how it smashes the control match up so often, and how it can get ahead of aggro decks.
Oh yeah against control it's extremely important to abuse him, but I just feel like he doesn't need to be focused on in every match. Against aggro I can usually just abuse Shriekmaw and use my artifact dudes to stall into a win.
Oh yeah against control it's extremely important to abuse him, but I just feel like he doesn't need to be focused on in every match. Against aggro I can usually just abuse Shriekmaw and use my artifact dudes to stall into a win.
no matter HOW you abuse the cards in this deck...it is still card advantage...mull or maw...both create awesome card advantage so either way is fine. personally it depends what kind of board position/hand/opponent's deck, etc are going on for me.
Oh yeah against control it's extremely important to abuse him, but I just feel like he doesn't need to be focused on in every match. Against aggro I can usually just abuse Shriekmaw and use my artifact dudes to stall into a win.
It's how you get more blockers then aggro can remove, by drawing via Mulldrifter, it's not going to be as important as dropping blockers sometimes, but it's also how you can create a situtation where they have to overcommit to get damage in, and then you can pretty much with the game with a well timed Damnation. Even if you kill your own guys, you have a-lot-a-grip advantage over the aggro player, and though there creatures come down before your's do, your anti-aggro men are bigger then there creature are. Still aggro especially red based is not the decks best match.
Shriekmaw kills what it can, but aggro if it wants to win has to be prepared for him.
In retrospect, I should of had 3 Mannequins and 2 Grim Harvests in the Main
Deck instead of the other way around, since I only had 24 lands, and a 4th
Damnation in the sideboard over the Profane Command.
Well, 2nd is still pretty darn good too.
A friend of mine, ran a similiar version too this deck, to a 16th place finish, after losing the last round of swiss to a R/G deck that had perfect draws.
I'm also considering taking out a river of tears or two and replacing them with the storage lands. I don't want to mess with the snow base, but I really think that storage lands would help immensely in the fight against control. Sometimes it feels like I have so much to do but not nearly enough mana to do it, and having a huge turn to fight through control's mana (which does use storage) is very difficult at this time.
Also, the idea of putting in the Academy ruins is to fight triskelavus recursion.
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Just a few questions here.
#1 Mournwhelk in the board, is it at all useful? I meen i could see it going in vrs control but is it realy worth it why not teferi or more profanity insted?
#2 would it be prudent to put in some white snow lands and mabey terramorphic expances and take out something (who knows what) for blink?
and finaly
#3 how important are the Venser, Shaper Savants? if you had to replace them what would you put in place of it?
I'm also considering taking out a river of tears or two and replacing them with the storage lands. I don't want to mess with the snow base, but I really think that storage lands would help immensely in the fight against control. Sometimes it feels like I have so much to do but not nearly enough mana to do it, and having a huge turn to fight through control's mana (which does use storage) is very difficult at this time.
Also, the idea of putting in the Academy ruins is to fight triskelavus recursion.
Your signature gives me a warm fuzzy feeling on the inside...
They've been saying that the deck can't take to much strain when it comes to colored mana, but I think the storage land should work fine since it gets you all the colored mana you want in the end, but then again I friggin' love those things in everything that isn't aggro or 3+ colors.
Also, we have Extirpate in the board to battle trisk recursion.
Also, the idea of putting in the Academy ruins is to fight triskelavus recursion.
It's hard for Teachings to get Trisk, it's a one of they can only fetch with Teferi on the table, and they have to battle through Extirpate and Mournwelk in order to do that.
How about splashing green for goyf? No it's not a joke, it would give us a finisher with a fat ass.
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SLIVER LEGION?!?!?
An open challenge to all salvation posters: Come play me at fnm at Toys From the Attic in Somersworth New Hampshire, the name is Chris Laskey and if you dare face the kithkin/red deck wins onslaught.
I'm sstill confused about this deck. How does it deal with control?
I get the land base and the evoke creatures, but how does it deal with say Korlash Control running 23 versions of hate like I ran into 3 times during swiss of my states? or Pickles? How about turbo fog?
Can someone please explain this to me like I'm a kid because I just can't seem to find the win condition against control. Is it a overwhelming amount of creatures?
I'm sstill confused about this deck. How does it deal with control?
I get the land base and the evoke creatures, but how does it deal with say Korlash Control running 23 versions of hate like I ran into 3 times during swiss of my states? or Pickles? How about turbo fog?
Can someone please explain this to me like I'm a kid because I just can't seem to find the win condition against control. Is it a overwhelming amount of creatures?
I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.
Basically what I said with Mulldrifter in the last pages is how the deck beats controls.
You've numerous effects you can use to recur and reuse Mulldrifter, if you do it right, which would mean get through counters and disruption (discard and the like) you can draw more cards then most control decks. From that point you have the advantage of having more threats then they can handle. After SB there's Mournwelk who is normally used midgame to make sure control can't keep cards in hand. The basic strategy is to draw more cards them they do via Mulldrifter, and wittle their hand size as they try to keep up with you, and use Mournwhelk to balance it all out.
You'd use the basic idea of the above strategy to beat all the decks you mentioned. Extirpate and Mournwhelk would likely be SB-ed for each of them, and you'd keep a close eye on their 'yard, and everytime something you couldn't deal with land in their you'd try and snag it with Extirpate.
Most of the time the deck plays out with the same initial idea, start abusing CA from Mulldrifter and go from there.
that way I can get 4 cards off an evoked mulldrifter.
honestly though, I only threw the stuff in there because I haven't bought all the pieces I need yet. I'm only running 23 lands also, and I'm thinking I need 1 or 2 more for sure
I'm also considering attempting to fit 3 pongify in this somewhere... hmmm
Hey guys, I'm working on a version of this deck myself and I'm wondering, is River of Tears really important? would I miss it if I went with more snow?
Hey guys, I'm working on a version of this deck myself and I'm wondering, is River of Tears really important? would I miss it if I went with more snow?
The deck is very mana intensive and needs its colors quickly. Honestly, River of Tears are probably more important to the deck than the oft-painful Underground Rivers.
The deck can of course perform without them, but just like anytime you sacrifice parts of your mana base, it will hurt your consistency.
To beat the control decks, you have to understand your role in the matchup. You need to be disruptive and aggressive. Shadowmage and the Mulldrifter engine are of course awesome here, but Mannequin is your all star in the control matchup. The instant nature of the card allows a threat to spring up in their end step and create an advantage for you. Play your Mannequins carefully.
The deck is very mana intensive and needs its colors quickly. Honestly, River of Tears are probably more important to the deck than the oft-painful Underground Rivers.
The deck can of course perform without them, but just like anytime you sacrifice parts of your mana base, it will hurt your consistency.
To beat the control decks, you have to understand your role in the matchup. You need to be disruptive and aggressive. Shadowmage and the Mulldrifter engine are of course awesome here, but Mannequin is your all star in the control matchup. The instant nature of the card allows a threat to spring up in their end step and create an advantage for you. Play your Mannequins carefully.
I see, I guess I'll pick up a playset and try them out. I was worried about not having the right color when I wanted to use it.
I tried it a couple of times and played with it a lot.. I did not change the original build and so far I haven't lost a 2/3 game yet.
As far as I know it is extremely mana intensive, so it seems to need a land drop every turn if possible. The all star at the start of the game is the 8stallers.
The mouth of ronoms are extremely useful. I have only seen few creatures that can resist ronom. The ones I don't are the ones I usually can bounce or kill.
The recursion is extremely smooth if you play it right.
With grim harvest and the mannequins. backing up the deck becomes an unstoppable card advantage machine. wrath doesn't do hell. in fact it actually helps in making your creatures bigger/ recur their effects.
If I was to choose which card in the deck I would actually cut to add another, I'm thinking its Finkel. In some match ups he is just bait to defend you against burn, but when unopposed he still becomes an extremely powerful card.
The deck is very mana intensive and needs its colors quickly. Honestly, River of Tears are probably more important to the deck than the oft-painful Underground Rivers.
The deck can of course perform without them, but just like anytime you sacrifice parts of your mana base, it will hurt your consistency.
graaaaaah I hate river of tears! The deck absolutely needs black mana on your opponent's turns; river cannot produce this. I've played the deck 2 days now and I've had at least 5 situations in 20 games where I have no black mana on opponent's turns.
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Evil is boring. The universe is friendly. Life is on your side. Joy is your birthright. Cynicism is idiotic. Fear is a bad habit. Despair is lazy. In fact, all of creation wants you to succeed. Act as if the universe is a prodigious miracle created for your amusement and illumination. Assume that secret helpers are working behind the scenes to assist you in turning into the gorgeous masterpiece you were born to be. . . Life always gives you exactly what you need, exactly when you need it.
OK, if you haven't tested the deck you probably shouldn't post your ideas as all you guys are doing is making the deck worst. :(. The deck requires a very unique play style and if you're not having success, try playing the deck differently before making suggestions like "cut every good card and add make it a bad Haakon deck."
Thanks
-Chris
graaaaaah I hate river of tears! The deck absolutely needs black mana on your opponent's turns; river cannot produce this. I've played the deck 2 days now and I've had at least 5 situations in 20 games where I have no black mana on opponent's turns.
I agree, which is why the deck optimally needs four rivers of both the underground and tears variety. However, if you could only have one, I suggested River of Tears. The best versions that aren't sacrificing consistency of their mana base should have both, of course.
Quote from help_plz »
OK, sorry if this belongs in the Teachings thread, but I was thinking of fitting in 3 Mystical Teachings, 2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, 1 more Profane Command and then cutting 2 Riftwing Cloudskate, 1 Shadowmage Infiltrator, 1 Makeshift Mannequin, 1 Venser, Shaper Savant and 1 Shriekmaw. But I was wondering if this totally takes the deck in another direction?
At that point, you've cut enough of what makes the deck works and the tuned numbers of cards that you're better off going with something like teachings.
This looks like a strangely optimized list from what you are saying and I can't debate that much at all. I'll proxy it up and add it to my gauntlet of testing.
How to fight Control? Run at them like as an Aggro deck, without overextending. Venser + Epochrosites (+ Hammers if you use them) will win you nearly every game.
And yes...... Mournwhelk + Grim Harvest are worth thier weight in gold vs control decks post-sideboarding.
the ubw blink thread has amazingly opted for augur of skulls instead of mournwhelk. I just want to pre-emptively mention that although mannequin is an instant, the rest of our gy recursion is sorcery speed and I think the cip effect is more powerful than an upkeep sac effect.
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Evil is boring. The universe is friendly. Life is on your side. Joy is your birthright. Cynicism is idiotic. Fear is a bad habit. Despair is lazy. In fact, all of creation wants you to succeed. Act as if the universe is a prodigious miracle created for your amusement and illumination. Assume that secret helpers are working behind the scenes to assist you in turning into the gorgeous masterpiece you were born to be. . . Life always gives you exactly what you need, exactly when you need it.
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lol, Tell that to Oliver Ruel.
Oh yeah against control it's extremely important to abuse him, but I just feel like he doesn't need to be focused on in every match. Against aggro I can usually just abuse Shriekmaw and use my artifact dudes to stall into a win.
no matter HOW you abuse the cards in this deck...it is still card advantage...mull or maw...both create awesome card advantage so either way is fine. personally it depends what kind of board position/hand/opponent's deck, etc are going on for me.
It's how you get more blockers then aggro can remove, by drawing via Mulldrifter, it's not going to be as important as dropping blockers sometimes, but it's also how you can create a situtation where they have to overcommit to get damage in, and then you can pretty much with the game with a well timed Damnation. Even if you kill your own guys, you have a-lot-a-grip advantage over the aggro player, and though there creatures come down before your's do, your anti-aggro men are bigger then there creature are. Still aggro especially red based is not the decks best match.
Shriekmaw kills what it can, but aggro if it wants to win has to be prepared for him.
Deck List Name:
"A Homicide In Progress"
3 Mouth of Ronom
2 Frost Marsh
1 Urza's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Snow-covered Island
4 River of Tears
4 Underground River
3 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Grim Harvest
2 Profane Command
2 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Nekrataal
4 Shriekmaw
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Epochrasite
3 Phyrexian Ironfoot
3 Mulldrifter
3 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Riftwing Cloudskate
Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
2 Mournwhelk
2 Extripate
3 Damnation
4 Bottle Gnomes
1 Profane Command
In retrospect, I should of had 3 Mannequins and 2 Grim Harvests in the Main
Deck instead of the other way around, since I only had 24 lands, and a 4th
Damnation in the sideboard over the Profane Command.
Well, 2nd is still pretty darn good too.
A friend of mine, ran a similiar version too this deck, to a 16th place finish, after losing the last round of swiss to a R/G deck that had perfect draws.
Christopher E. Otwell
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Also, the idea of putting in the Academy ruins is to fight triskelavus recursion.
#1 Mournwhelk in the board, is it at all useful? I meen i could see it going in vrs control but is it realy worth it why not teferi or more profanity insted?
#2 would it be prudent to put in some white snow lands and mabey terramorphic expances and take out something (who knows what) for blink?
and finaly
#3 how important are the Venser, Shaper Savants? if you had to replace them what would you put in place of it?
Your signature gives me a warm fuzzy feeling on the inside...
They've been saying that the deck can't take to much strain when it comes to colored mana, but I think the storage land should work fine since it gets you all the colored mana you want in the end, but then again I friggin' love those things in everything that isn't aggro or 3+ colors.
Also, we have Extirpate in the board to battle trisk recursion.
It's hard for Teachings to get Trisk, it's a one of they can only fetch with Teferi on the table, and they have to battle through Extirpate and Mournwelk in order to do that.
An open challenge to all salvation posters: Come play me at fnm at Toys From the Attic in Somersworth New Hampshire, the name is Chris Laskey and if you dare face the kithkin/red deck wins onslaught.
I get the land base and the evoke creatures, but how does it deal with say Korlash Control running 23 versions of hate like I ran into 3 times during swiss of my states? or Pickles? How about turbo fog?
Can someone please explain this to me like I'm a kid because I just can't seem to find the win condition against control. Is it a overwhelming amount of creatures?
I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.
Basically what I said with Mulldrifter in the last pages is how the deck beats controls.
You've numerous effects you can use to recur and reuse Mulldrifter, if you do it right, which would mean get through counters and disruption (discard and the like) you can draw more cards then most control decks. From that point you have the advantage of having more threats then they can handle. After SB there's Mournwelk who is normally used midgame to make sure control can't keep cards in hand. The basic strategy is to draw more cards them they do via Mulldrifter, and wittle their hand size as they try to keep up with you, and use Mournwhelk to balance it all out.
You'd use the basic idea of the above strategy to beat all the decks you mentioned. Extirpate and Mournwhelk would likely be SB-ed for each of them, and you'd keep a close eye on their 'yard, and everytime something you couldn't deal with land in their you'd try and snag it with Extirpate.
Most of the time the deck plays out with the same initial idea, start abusing CA from Mulldrifter and go from there.
that way I can get 4 cards off an evoked mulldrifter.
honestly though, I only threw the stuff in there because I haven't bought all the pieces I need yet. I'm only running 23 lands also, and I'm thinking I need 1 or 2 more for sure
I'm also considering attempting to fit 3 pongify in this somewhere... hmmm
4x mulldrifter
4x Shreikmaw
3x shadowmage infiltrator
3x riftwing cloudskate
3x epochrasite
3x phyrexian ironfoot
2x vesner shapeshifter
4x mannequin
3x pongify
4x perilous research
3x chromatic star
leaves for 24 lands...
once this deck gets going, it gets a lot of cards.
The deck is very mana intensive and needs its colors quickly. Honestly, River of Tears are probably more important to the deck than the oft-painful Underground Rivers.
The deck can of course perform without them, but just like anytime you sacrifice parts of your mana base, it will hurt your consistency.
To beat the control decks, you have to understand your role in the matchup. You need to be disruptive and aggressive. Shadowmage and the Mulldrifter engine are of course awesome here, but Mannequin is your all star in the control matchup. The instant nature of the card allows a threat to spring up in their end step and create an advantage for you. Play your Mannequins carefully.
read the card. you use grim harvest on creatures. mannequin's an instant.
I see, I guess I'll pick up a playset and try them out. I was worried about not having the right color when I wanted to use it.
Not sure.. Lol. New with this deck as well.
I tried it a couple of times and played with it a lot.. I did not change the original build and so far I haven't lost a 2/3 game yet.
As far as I know it is extremely mana intensive, so it seems to need a land drop every turn if possible. The all star at the start of the game is the 8 stallers.
It then goes to the mid game with venser, shaper savant, mulldrifter, shriekmaw, riftwing cloudskate and faerie conclave
The mouth of ronoms are extremely useful. I have only seen few creatures that can resist ronom. The ones I don't are the ones I usually can bounce or kill.
The recursion is extremely smooth if you play it right.
With grim harvest and the mannequins. backing up the deck becomes an unstoppable card advantage machine. wrath doesn't do hell. in fact it actually helps in making your creatures bigger/ recur their effects.
If I was to choose which card in the deck I would actually cut to add another, I'm thinking its Finkel. In some match ups he is just bait to defend you against burn, but when unopposed he still becomes an extremely powerful card.
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Proud Member of the MWS Haters Clan
graaaaaah I hate river of tears! The deck absolutely needs black mana on your opponent's turns; river cannot produce this. I've played the deck 2 days now and I've had at least 5 situations in 20 games where I have no black mana on opponent's turns.
Shuffle better?
If it continues to be an issue, add some more Snow-covered Swamps.
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Thanks
-Chris
I agree, which is why the deck optimally needs four rivers of both the underground and tears variety. However, if you could only have one, I suggested River of Tears. The best versions that aren't sacrificing consistency of their mana base should have both, of course.
At that point, you've cut enough of what makes the deck works and the tuned numbers of cards that you're better off going with something like teachings.
- Del
And yes...... Mournwhelk + Grim Harvest are worth thier weight in gold vs control decks post-sideboarding.
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