@Svogthir: Nantuko Husk is great but few of the decks that are here have space for a such a creature (despite its usefulness).
@ZeroToleranc3: Enchantments have always been trouble for black, but i seriously doubt that circle of protection or Ivory Mask can come and ruin our day. Talking seriously unless MBC or MBA become the deck of choice no one would even run COP: Black as its a very narrow answer for only MB. Ivory mask in any case would cause more trouble to a mono Red deck which uses burn rather than a Mono Black one.
Anyways MonoBlack has ound ways of being sucessful before even with the handycap of nor being ablet to destroy enchantments or artifacts... but truth is there arent many enchantents that I totaly fear (maybe Glare of Subdual in case of aggro but not control)
I've been testing Mono Black too. I did Zombies and Mono Black Aggro and they both have been doing alright. And to Aramir I would take out the Thallid and put in Sangrophage which is a beast and will stomp anything that tries to oppose him. And Gravedigger could go out for Bad Moon, but thats up to you
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I think that SyNide and the rest of you completely missunderstood me. The combo with Nether Spirit is great and all, but the point I was trying to make was that Husk is too good not to be left out of MBA decks. I can't figure out why no one else is playing him.
He's too slow for mono-black aggro, imo. But hey, don't take it too hard, Mr. Husk. A lot of guys are too slow. Nether Traitor, for instance. Faceless Devourer. Skulking Knight. Hell, Drekavac is even too slow in some builds. So don't feel bad.
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Well about nantuko husk, i have to agree with extarbags, he might be too slow, it's far easier to just use fallen ideal on a creature already in play, it also provides evasion. In an aggro deck with alot more creatures it would be excellent. Hmmmm, extarbags, i have to say that nether traitor is not that slow, considering it has haste and shadow, it's pretty good, especially when paired with Bad Moon, it becomes a game winner.
Hmmmm, extarbags, i have to say that nether traitor is not that slow, considering it has haste and shadow, it's pretty good, especially when paired with Bad Moon, it becomes a game winner.
1 power = too slow.
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Yeah the thallid was just a last minute add cause I couldn't find anymore zombies, but the sangrophrasgaeas or however you spell that would work out pretty well. I think I'd rather keep the gravediggers. They'll probably always get something back useful. That and I have Lord of the Undead and Undead Warchief that are giving all my zombies +1/+1 or +2/+1 respectively.
First off, welcome to the thread Murderdoll and Warrie! Nice to see new faces coming around. Now on to your decks.
Murderdoll, Your deck is very much a control deck, while i see how it's supposed to morph out the [CARD=Liege]Liege of the Pit
[/CARD] quickly, i would highly suggest adding nightmare void somewhere in there, for one thing it's an excellent way to make sure that his hand is clear of removal, for both graveyard and creatures. It also serves against Control. Maybe you should add 2 in your SB. About Rakdos Guildmage, i think it would be excellent if you added Madness cards like Nightshade Assassin for six mana you're almost always guaranteed a kill with the added bonus of a first-striker. Also, you could take this deck either of 2 ways, Aggro or control, if you go with Aggro, i'd suggest putting in Bad Moon and Putting in both the Rakdos Guildmage and the Nightshade Assassin. As for Control side, add nightmare void and up the gravepact count. Actually, Gravepact is brilliant, in an aggro control deck with reanimator, Gravepact is an excellent control piece...especially against control decks which run Akroma. Smallpox is also good. About Haakon, i think what you could do is play it in the first game, then when you're opponent sides in his tormod's crypts, side haakon out and put in other stuff. Phyrexian Totem is good if you choose to go control.
Warrie, it's flattering to see someone using my deck as a base, Thanks! Anyway, Your deck is fine, Plague Sliver as an extra win con is pretty good considering this deck might find itself low on lands at times. I highly suggest putting in 2 Dreadship Reef, because more than once i've been able to consume spirit for 11-17 damage since i play control.
Speaking about the loss of Hideous Laughter, i think our closest alternative(other than an uncontrolled Plague Boiler) would be Sudden Spoiling, of course this does not actually kill the opponent's creatures, but it can serve as an excellent combat trick, it does allow your creatures to touch Akroma, and could even be used to kill her with a last gasp right after that. In the most recent version of my MBC(i'll post it in just abit) i've realized that a really good way to stop(or at least delay) an akroma is Icy Manipulator of course you'd have to worry about losing it, but it's good enough until you get your win conditions out.
Several Things i've put in recently, firstly i've put in Curse of the Cabal, after a particularly gruelling match against U/W control with more countermagic than you can shake a stick at, this card helps deal with his board, also, it provides an opening to do other spells. I've also put in Icy Manipulator to stop Lock Akroma down. As For Lands, ive added Dreadship reef(Amadi is right about the Storage Lands). Also, I added Urza's Factory because it's an excellent means to get through to the enemy if the board with your win cons have been Wrathed. My board runs Withered Wretch over Tormod's Crypt Because it can be used multiple times, and worse comes to worse it swings for 2, my discard spells have been placed in my sideboard because at times it's not as useful as other cards. I took deathmark because it deals with alot of win cons out there (Angel of Despair). Helldozer is there against control decks.
ConsumeSpirit; hows Sangrophage working out for you? Is the 2 damage a turn too much?
Surprisingly, no. I have found that if it ever turns out to be a problem, then I can jsut tap him. However usually everygame I get at least 1 blood moon out which means the 4 damage to him and 2 to me is fine. Its like a char every turn. But yeah if he ever becomes a problem with life-loss (as it could admitedly, coupled with Confidant and Plague Sliver) I can either just tap him, or he become Rusalka fuel.
I also feel that running both Mouth of Ronom and Quicksand may be the best bet to be able to combat Paladin and other pro-black annoyances.
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
[deck=Pit Keeper] Gravedigger: While Pit Keeper is cheaper, it requires you to have 4 creatures in your Graveyard, something you might not always have. So, this debate is gnawing away at the back of my head. Should I make the swap?
Murderdolls
Since you are running very few creatures here, what about using mausoleum turnkey instead? Something to test out I guess.
So, theres the deck. It seems somewhat slow, but also seems like it could overrun alot of decks with the LotP. Nether Spirit is awsome fodder to the leige and is awsome if you have two. The lack of nonbasic lands is personal preferance and because of all the x2 and x3 black needed.
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
Thanks for the appreciation Murderdolls i appreciate it =D, anyway, about your sui zombie deck, since it's running both of blacks major(only?) drawing spells, then you'll need life gain, the way i see it you have a few options, 1) Play Loxodon Warhammer 2) Play Mourning Thrull(actually this would be pretty good with Bad moon, which gives me an idea....) 3) Run Soul Spike 4) Run Consume Spirit.....Now of these four i personally prefer Option 3, why? for Several reasons, firstly it's by far the Fastest of the other options, secondly it takes advantage of the extra cards that you draw, so that they aren't wasted just sitting in your hand, of course one could argue that none of these are dead cards, but i say if they aren't in play, they're dead. The major factor for people's lack of Soul Spike in their aggro decks with Dark Confidant is it's 7 mana cost. The truth is, it's not that painful. With the right balance, you should be able to kill your opponent faster than he can say wtf! why? Because even though you're running mostly efficient creatures, earlier on they are going to be stuck in your hand. And with the amount of card draw in your deck, you're bound to have to discard quite abit End of Turn, since they're going anyway, don't let them be wasted, aim the Spike straight for his head. As for the other options, They are all too slow, although they each have their advantages, i find that though Soul Spike brings the highest risk, it works best in MBA.
If You're wondering why i can very confidently tell you that option 3 is the best, is because i ran did the exact same thing(Check out my MBA example on the first post), Pre-TS and i was able to beat most if not all the top 8 decks of the time, including Tron, Solar Flare, Gruul Beats(this deck made me MD Soul Spike) and assorted others. Trust me, Soul Spike is a game winner.
Hey Loxodon, Haven't seen you in abit, nice to see you again ^^
About your decks, Your Sui looks pretty solid, except for ravenous rats and mindstab, i say switch out the Ravenous rats for dauthi slayer, as for the mindstab, put it in SB, because mindstab really screws up control, either they lose 3 cards or they counter it giving you an opening, maybe you could switch it out for Garza's Assassin (which you should put 3 of in your deck). Trust me on this, Garza's Assassin is such an underrated card, it allows all MB decks a good amount of control, be it Aggro or Control. As For your MBC, remove Funeral Charms, it seems nice and all, but it's not half as good as Curse of the Cabal. Another change i would make is to remove the Smallpox, sure it seems nice being able to cause widespread misery, but i'd much rather put in Last Gasp, because your deck is really lacking in the creature removal dept. Everything else is fine. Good Job =D
Carnifex, running both Arena and Bob is not as bad as you make it out to be, the truth is, with all that card draw, you'll be able to overwhelm almost any enemy, plus you get more fodder for Soul Spike
Twisted Abomination: A swamp early and a big regenerator late. I don't see why any black deck wouldn't want four. Skeletal Vampire: Black's best creature win condition in Standard...PERIOD. Weakened slightly by Sudden Death, but still a viable threat and hard to kill.
Removal
Sudden Death: If you're in black, you run four. It kills the vast majority of critters in Standard and is uncounterable. Tendrils of Corruption: Corrupt was good at 6 and sorc. For 2 mana less and instant speed we can only hit creatures - oh noes. Still great removal and some lifegain. Smallpox: Wow. This card is REALLY good. Used mainly as an Edict with some benefits, it's a great way to keep ahead.
Discard
Stupor: Very good card, knocks out two cards for three mana, one at random. Persecute: You should already know why this card is good. Four mana for usually about half of their hand. Good times.
Utility
Phyrexian Arena: Simplest and best consistent black draw short of Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain (and maybe Greed). Gauntlet of Power: An interesting varient on Gauntlet of Might and Mirari's Wake, this card is my version of Cabal Coffers. Consume Spirit: While this could go under removal, I'm putting it here because it's really a black Fireball/Blaze/Demonfire with the added benefit of gaining me some life. Gets lethally big very quickly with a Gauntlet out.
Sideboard
Tormod's Crypt: Best graveyard hoser ever. May become something else if Vore dies down and other decks don't care about their yards that much. Deathmark: For annoying white and green creatures that dodge Sudden Death (Adarkar Valkyrie and Rumbling Slum come to mind). Cruel Edict: For untargetable creatures like Solifuge and for extra ways to deal with turn 1 Kird Ape. Darkblast: Deals with the stuff that's too small to waste Sudden Death on (Magus of the Scroll, Confidant, Elves, Birds, etc).
While not the largest sample size, I went 3-1 against some fairly strong decks on Workstation, including recovering from a board clearing Wildfire and winning and the deck felt like it was pretty consistent. About the only change I might make is to pull something for a 24th swamp - maybe.
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I see very little decks running Twisted Abomination.... MBC should run them theres just no excuse not to. It both mana fixer, card drawing and a huge creature later on.
As for the arena/Confidant discussion... ive run both of them in a deck and they seem to work together nicely. But you really have to seee which one to run in many cases since they essensialy are the same card. If your deck is full of other cards that make you loose life and 4+ casting cost then Confidant is a bad idea. just run 4 arenas.
@Cloud: I think you really shouldnt run 4 Gaunlet of Power 3 are enough if you have card draw... maybe a couple of Diabolical Tutors to look for some cards... or maybe Demonic Collusion. That way you cut on some cards and still sorta keep em
Is there a reason not to run Stronghold Overseer or did I miss something? It just seems like a great winner. 5/5 nigh unblockable, with the ability to slow down your opponent a great deal.
Because there are other good finishers as well. Sengir nosferatu, is almost unkillable if you leave mana open. (Dies to edict and wrath). And skeletal vampire is also almost unkillable, dying only to wrath and cannot be regenerated-removal such as Sudden death.
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Cloud, i think your deck might be lacking really good win conditions. Why do i say they aren't good? Well For Skeletal Vampire, against most decks its not too shabby, but against black. It really kicks the bucket, It can easily killed by Last Gasp, and even it's attacking potential is heavily stunted by Board Sweeping effects (Wrath Of God, Sulfurous Blast, Pyroclasm, Stronghold Overseer) Even if you can regen the vamp, he's pretty useless alone. Not to mention, Stronghold Overseer can easily turn the vamp into a 2/3 swinger for 6 mana(i have mentioned this earlier on in the Thread). Skeletal Vampire really isn't the BEST black win condition period. It's good, but i've seen better. A better win-con is actually Stronghold Overseer for 6 mana you get a 5/5 who not only can pump, but also has shadow and flying and the ability to completely blunt enemy attackers. Because Mono-Black Lacks board sweepers, the Overseer is one of the closest things we can get to actual board sweepers. And it's isn't too shabby, considering it can slow down Untargettable Creatures like Akroma, and Simc Skyswallower. Skeletal Vampire can do little to stop an SSS because it has trample, and it can do Nothing to stop Akroma because even the bat tokens are black. Skeletal Vampire is abit overrated. As for Twisted Abomination, the only reason i would ever run it is for swampcycling, nothing else, having only 3 toughness it too is susceptible to Last Gasp. And Twisted Abomination is by no means a big MUST, if you need mana, i suggest Phyrexian Totem because it will always be there in the event of the opponent not having any blockers or mana untapped. Half the time, opponents actually forget that it can turn into a fat swinger and go all out because they don't see threats on the board, just Mana. Then you can swing in with the Negator. One thing i like about your deck is the use of Tendrils of Corruption, its really good removal, and since your lands are ALL swamps, it should be pretty good. One card i think you should add is one of the Dreadship Reef. btw in your spoiler you mentioned Gauntlet of Might but i don't see it anywhere in your deck list. (the Storage lands are a better way to produce tons of black mana because it goes under your land slots, there by giving you more space for other cards).
Loxodon, i'm not too sure about smallpox, i mean i know everyone has been saying it's good, but i haven't found any occasion(other than in my mono-black LD deck) where it's really as good. Also, the reason i say put in Last Gasp is because sometimes all you can spare is 2 mana, and with last gasp it's just enough, but since your meta is leaned more towards control than smallpox would definitely be a better card.
Sengir, Twisted Abomination is not such a great thing that you don't have any excuse not to run them, sure it's a mana fixer and a big hitter, but it doesn't draw you a card it just searchs for a swamp, and it can't dodge most of the blacks spot removal(i use black spot removal as my benchmark for a creature's survivability) And Twisted Abomination isn't that good.
Blueconcept, we haven't forgotten any of those cards, just read back a page or so and you'll find that we've put them in our Aggro(Sangrophage,Hyppie) and Aggro Control(Hyppie) and Control(nightmare void) decks.
Sjoerd, i'm glad to finally have someone else support Stronghold Overseer. If you read the first 2 pages we were discussing Skeletal Vampire vs Stronghold Overseer as the MBC win con. And i say, Skeletal Vampire though having the ability to chump block with the best of them can't compare the ability of NOT NEEDING to block, which is precisely what Stronghold Overseer, offers. I personally run them as one of my win conditions.
Sengir, Twisted Abomination is not such a great thing that you don't have any excuse not to run them, sure it's a mana fixer and a big hitter, but it doesn't draw you a card it just searchs for a swamp, and it can't dodge most of the blacks spot removal(i use black spot removal as my benchmark for a creature's survivability) And Twisted Abomination isn't that good.
Yeah, I agree. It's just way too expensive for aggro and it doesn't bring anything to the table for control, especially when it's up against an almost unblockable 5/5 that can debuff all of their non-shadow creatures and a 4/4 flying that only goes down to mass removal. It looks pretty good on paper, but no matter what kind of deck you're playing, there's a better alternative.
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This deck is fast enough without Bob. Also I'm supprised no one is useing Mortivore. Regeneration and a growing body (thanks to Nantuko Husk).
Fixed with deck tags. The problem with Mortivore is that there is no guarantee that he will get any bigger than a 4/4 in a dual since you have no way of filling up your yard from your deck and you could very well be facing down a control deck with only 1 or 2 creatures. He would be better for the sideboard. Why not replace him with your faceless butchers instead since you are obviously aware of the combo with the husk?
Sengir, Twisted Abomination is not such a great thing that you don't have any excuse not to run them, sure it's a mana fixer and a big hitter, but it doesn't draw you a card it just searchs for a swamp, and it can't dodge most of the blacks spot removal(i use black spot removal as my benchmark for a creature's survivability) And Twisted Abomination isn't that good.
Ah this is again were I state my point on versatility. The abomination is a card that will not fall dead early mid or late game. Its in fact a card that can be used for mana fixing/card drawing in the early stages and as an extra creature in the later stages. Also it has quircky interactions with cards like zombify for those interrested.
To you response on how its not card drawing SyNide, you are right its not card drawing especifically... but it does one thing: thin out your deck... even if it looks only for a swamp its one less swamp there virtually you pile card advantage meaning that thats not a swamp youll draw later int eh 6th turn when youre not interrested ina swamp. Can you tell me why some people run Mishra's Bauble or Terramorphic Expanse when theyre obviously sub par.... because of card advantage. Also dont forget the fact that this is specialized card drawing, two swamps and a twisted abomination and you know you have 3 swamps.
you also cant debase the card because it dies to black removal... everything dies to black removal short of the overseer or akroma or the skyswalower and those are 6+ mana cost cards that do nothing else than be a big creature and even then they can be killed by Sudden Spoiling or Wrath of God. Hell 95% of all standard use creatures will die to black removal like last gasp or sudden death, some of those being very powerful anyways (loxodon hierarch, agustin, ghost council, skeletal vampire, hippy, Orhan Viper, etc) and they still get used.
Yeah, I agree. It's just way too expensive for aggro and it doesn't bring anything to the table for control, especially when it's up against an almost unblockable 5/5 that can debuff all of their non-shadow creatures and a 4/4 flying that only goes down to mass removal. It looks pretty good on paper, but no matter what kind of deck you're playing, there's a better alternative.
Again you are stuck on the idea of it being only a creature. No its not the greatest creature ever, and sure as a finisher the overseer does a better job, a lot of creatures do a better job. But the fact is that this should be NOT be treated as a 5/3 regenerator only, it should be looked for its application of being both creature and mana fixer/card drawer.
of course you are right this only applies to MBC butive played the deck type before and i know how mana hungry MBC is and i know this is the perfect solution for that kind of thing... and I know that this can also become a threat if I dont want a mana fixer later. theres were the card's gold standard is.
on the side: the overseer is an excelent card.... theres just a lot of competition out there, the main ones being:
Skeletal Vampire and Sengir Nosferatu.
The Nosferatu is great try him out, annoying a la Ghost Council. In my opinion the best ceature choice for a aggro-control style deck whith plague slivers and such since you should keep the curve as low as possible to win quickly while still controling the game.
The Skeletal Vampire vs Overseer discussion would be a long one but the fact is this: its meta game dependant. Both can get out of control quick both have power both are for control only mono black decks as aggro would not include them in a million years and aggro-control has more and cheaper options.
@ZeroToleranc3: Enchantments have always been trouble for black, but i seriously doubt that circle of protection or Ivory Mask can come and ruin our day. Talking seriously unless MBC or MBA become the deck of choice no one would even run COP: Black as its a very narrow answer for only MB. Ivory mask in any case would cause more trouble to a mono Red deck which uses burn rather than a Mono Black one.
Anyways MonoBlack has ound ways of being sucessful before even with the handycap of nor being ablet to destroy enchantments or artifacts... but truth is there arent many enchantents that I totaly fear (maybe Glare of Subdual in case of aggro but not control)
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DragonStorm.dec RBU
Legacy Currently Testing:
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He's too slow for mono-black aggro, imo. But hey, don't take it too hard, Mr. Husk. A lot of guys are too slow. Nether Traitor, for instance. Faceless Devourer. Skulking Knight. Hell, Drekavac is even too slow in some builds. So don't feel bad.
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Drekavac
4 Sangrophage
4 Foul Imp
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Leige of the Pit
4 Plague Sliver
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Sudden Death
2 Avatar of Woe
22 Swamp
Maybe the Negator totem? A madness idea with Nightshade Assassin? Maybe take out Foul Imp for Nether Traitor.
1 power = too slow.
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Murderdoll, Your deck is very much a control deck, while i see how it's supposed to morph out the [CARD=Liege]Liege of the Pit
[/CARD] quickly, i would highly suggest adding nightmare void somewhere in there, for one thing it's an excellent way to make sure that his hand is clear of removal, for both graveyard and creatures. It also serves against Control. Maybe you should add 2 in your SB. About Rakdos Guildmage, i think it would be excellent if you added Madness cards like Nightshade Assassin for six mana you're almost always guaranteed a kill with the added bonus of a first-striker. Also, you could take this deck either of 2 ways, Aggro or control, if you go with Aggro, i'd suggest putting in Bad Moon and Putting in both the Rakdos Guildmage and the Nightshade Assassin. As for Control side, add nightmare void and up the gravepact count. Actually, Gravepact is brilliant, in an aggro control deck with reanimator, Gravepact is an excellent control piece...especially against control decks which run Akroma. Smallpox is also good. About Haakon, i think what you could do is play it in the first game, then when you're opponent sides in his tormod's crypts, side haakon out and put in other stuff. Phyrexian Totem is good if you choose to go control.
Warrie, it's flattering to see someone using my deck as a base, Thanks! Anyway, Your deck is fine, Plague Sliver as an extra win con is pretty good considering this deck might find itself low on lands at times. I highly suggest putting in 2 Dreadship Reef, because more than once i've been able to consume spirit for 11-17 damage since i play control.
Speaking about the loss of Hideous Laughter, i think our closest alternative(other than an uncontrolled Plague Boiler) would be Sudden Spoiling, of course this does not actually kill the opponent's creatures, but it can serve as an excellent combat trick, it does allow your creatures to touch Akroma, and could even be used to kill her with a last gasp right after that. In the most recent version of my MBC(i'll post it in just abit) i've realized that a really good way to stop(or at least delay) an akroma is Icy Manipulator of course you'd have to worry about losing it, but it's good enough until you get your win conditions out.
As for my Latest MBC Deck
4x Sengir Nosferatu
3x Stronghold Overseer
Spells
4x Phyrexian Arena
4x Curse of the Cabal
4x Sudden Death
4x Last Gasp
3x Consume Spirit
3x Soul Spike
4x Phyrexian Totem
2x Icy Manipulator
Lands
17x Snow-Covered Swamp
3x Dreadship Reef
2x Mouth of Ronom
2x Urza's Factory
1x Safe Haven
2x Nightmare Void
3x Helldozer
3x Deathmark
4x Stupor
3x Withered Wretch
Several Things i've put in recently, firstly i've put in Curse of the Cabal, after a particularly gruelling match against U/W control with more countermagic than you can shake a stick at, this card helps deal with his board, also, it provides an opening to do other spells. I've also put in Icy Manipulator to stop Lock Akroma down. As For Lands, ive added Dreadship reef(Amadi is right about the Storage Lands). Also, I added Urza's Factory because it's an excellent means to get through to the enemy if the board with your win cons have been Wrathed. My board runs Withered Wretch over Tormod's Crypt Because it can be used multiple times, and worse comes to worse it swings for 2, my discard spells have been placed in my sideboard because at times it's not as useful as other cards. I took deathmark because it deals with alot of win cons out there (Angel of Despair). Helldozer is there against control decks.
So, what do you guys think?
Surprisingly, no. I have found that if it ever turns out to be a problem, then I can jsut tap him. However usually everygame I get at least 1 blood moon out which means the 4 damage to him and 2 to me is fine. Its like a char every turn. But yeah if he ever becomes a problem with life-loss (as it could admitedly, coupled with Confidant and Plague Sliver) I can either just tap him, or he become Rusalka fuel.
I also feel that running both Mouth of Ronom and Quicksand may be the best bet to be able to combat Paladin and other pro-black annoyances.
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Since you are running very few creatures here, what about using mausoleum turnkey instead? Something to test out I guess.
4 Leige of the Pit
4 Withered wretch
4 Nether Spirit
4 Plauged rusalka
3 Plague sliver
2 Garza's Assasin
3 Mindstab
4 Smallpox
2 Cruel Edict
4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Sudden death
So, theres the deck. It seems somewhat slow, but also seems like it could overrun alot of decks with the LotP. Nether Spirit is awsome fodder to the leige and is awsome if you have two. The lack of nonbasic lands is personal preferance and because of all the x2 and x3 black needed.
Comments?
I think you mean nether traitor?
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W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
If You're wondering why i can very confidently tell you that option 3 is the best, is because i ran did the exact same thing(Check out my MBA example on the first post), Pre-TS and i was able to beat most if not all the top 8 decks of the time, including Tron, Solar Flare, Gruul Beats(this deck made me MD Soul Spike) and assorted others. Trust me, Soul Spike is a game winner.
Hey Loxodon, Haven't seen you in abit, nice to see you again ^^
About your decks, Your Sui looks pretty solid, except for ravenous rats and mindstab, i say switch out the Ravenous rats for dauthi slayer, as for the mindstab, put it in SB, because mindstab really screws up control, either they lose 3 cards or they counter it giving you an opening, maybe you could switch it out for Garza's Assassin (which you should put 3 of in your deck). Trust me on this, Garza's Assassin is such an underrated card, it allows all MB decks a good amount of control, be it Aggro or Control. As For your MBC, remove Funeral Charms, it seems nice and all, but it's not half as good as Curse of the Cabal. Another change i would make is to remove the Smallpox, sure it seems nice being able to cause widespread misery, but i'd much rather put in Last Gasp, because your deck is really lacking in the creature removal dept. Everything else is fine. Good Job =D
Carnifex, running both Arena and Bob is not as bad as you make it out to be, the truth is, with all that card draw, you'll be able to overwhelm almost any enemy, plus you get more fodder for Soul Spike
4 Twisted Abomination
3 Skeletal Vampire
4 Gauntlet of Power
4 Consume Spirit
4 Stupor
4 Smallpox
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Sudden Death
4 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Persecute
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Deathmark
4 Cruel Edict
3 Darkblast
Creatures
Twisted Abomination: A swamp early and a big regenerator late. I don't see why any black deck wouldn't want four.
Skeletal Vampire: Black's best creature win condition in Standard...PERIOD. Weakened slightly by Sudden Death, but still a viable threat and hard to kill.
Sudden Death: If you're in black, you run four. It kills the vast majority of critters in Standard and is uncounterable.
Tendrils of Corruption: Corrupt was good at 6 and sorc. For 2 mana less and instant speed we can only hit creatures - oh noes. Still great removal and some lifegain.
Smallpox: Wow. This card is REALLY good. Used mainly as an Edict with some benefits, it's a great way to keep ahead.
Stupor: Very good card, knocks out two cards for three mana, one at random.
Persecute: You should already know why this card is good. Four mana for usually about half of their hand. Good times.
Phyrexian Arena: Simplest and best consistent black draw short of Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain (and maybe Greed).
Gauntlet of Power: An interesting varient on Gauntlet of Might and Mirari's Wake, this card is my version of Cabal Coffers.
Consume Spirit: While this could go under removal, I'm putting it here because it's really a black Fireball/Blaze/Demonfire with the added benefit of gaining me some life. Gets lethally big very quickly with a Gauntlet out.
Tormod's Crypt: Best graveyard hoser ever. May become something else if Vore dies down and other decks don't care about their yards that much.
Deathmark: For annoying white and green creatures that dodge Sudden Death (Adarkar Valkyrie and Rumbling Slum come to mind).
Cruel Edict: For untargetable creatures like Solifuge and for extra ways to deal with turn 1 Kird Ape.
Darkblast: Deals with the stuff that's too small to waste Sudden Death on (Magus of the Scroll, Confidant, Elves, Birds, etc).
While not the largest sample size, I went 3-1 against some fairly strong decks on Workstation, including recovering from a board clearing Wildfire and winning and the deck felt like it was pretty consistent. About the only change I might make is to pull something for a 24th swamp - maybe.
Hey, you. Yes, you reading this sig. Get off your computer, go find a copy of Skies of Arcadia: Legends and play it. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
As for the arena/Confidant discussion... ive run both of them in a deck and they seem to work together nicely. But you really have to seee which one to run in many cases since they essensialy are the same card. If your deck is full of other cards that make you loose life and 4+ casting cost then Confidant is a bad idea. just run 4 arenas.
@Cloud: I think you really shouldnt run 4 Gaunlet of Power 3 are enough if you have card draw... maybe a couple of Diabolical Tutors to look for some cards... or maybe Demonic Collusion. That way you cut on some cards and still sorta keep em
And what of Sancrophage and Nightvoids?
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=317475478823307368#overview/src=dashboard
Like reading magic theory?
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Are you a navy Nuke?
http://blueconceptnavynuke.blogspot.com/2012/08/captains-mast-at-nnptc.html
Because there are other good finishers as well. Sengir nosferatu, is almost unkillable if you leave mana open. (Dies to edict and wrath). And skeletal vampire is also almost unkillable, dying only to wrath and cannot be regenerated-removal such as Sudden death.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Welcome Cloud, Blue and Sjoerd
Cloud, i think your deck might be lacking really good win conditions. Why do i say they aren't good? Well For Skeletal Vampire, against most decks its not too shabby, but against black. It really kicks the bucket, It can easily killed by Last Gasp, and even it's attacking potential is heavily stunted by Board Sweeping effects (Wrath Of God, Sulfurous Blast, Pyroclasm, Stronghold Overseer) Even if you can regen the vamp, he's pretty useless alone. Not to mention, Stronghold Overseer can easily turn the vamp into a 2/3 swinger for 6 mana(i have mentioned this earlier on in the Thread). Skeletal Vampire really isn't the BEST black win condition period. It's good, but i've seen better. A better win-con is actually Stronghold Overseer for 6 mana you get a 5/5 who not only can pump, but also has shadow and flying and the ability to completely blunt enemy attackers. Because Mono-Black Lacks board sweepers, the Overseer is one of the closest things we can get to actual board sweepers. And it's isn't too shabby, considering it can slow down Untargettable Creatures like Akroma, and Simc Skyswallower. Skeletal Vampire can do little to stop an SSS because it has trample, and it can do Nothing to stop Akroma because even the bat tokens are black. Skeletal Vampire is abit overrated. As for Twisted Abomination, the only reason i would ever run it is for swampcycling, nothing else, having only 3 toughness it too is susceptible to Last Gasp. And Twisted Abomination is by no means a big MUST, if you need mana, i suggest Phyrexian Totem because it will always be there in the event of the opponent not having any blockers or mana untapped. Half the time, opponents actually forget that it can turn into a fat swinger and go all out because they don't see threats on the board, just Mana. Then you can swing in with the Negator. One thing i like about your deck is the use of Tendrils of Corruption, its really good removal, and since your lands are ALL swamps, it should be pretty good. One card i think you should add is one of the Dreadship Reef. btw in your spoiler you mentioned Gauntlet of Might but i don't see it anywhere in your deck list. (the Storage lands are a better way to produce tons of black mana because it goes under your land slots, there by giving you more space for other cards).
Loxodon, i'm not too sure about smallpox, i mean i know everyone has been saying it's good, but i haven't found any occasion(other than in my mono-black LD deck) where it's really as good. Also, the reason i say put in Last Gasp is because sometimes all you can spare is 2 mana, and with last gasp it's just enough, but since your meta is leaned more towards control than smallpox would definitely be a better card.
Sengir, Twisted Abomination is not such a great thing that you don't have any excuse not to run them, sure it's a mana fixer and a big hitter, but it doesn't draw you a card it just searchs for a swamp, and it can't dodge most of the blacks spot removal(i use black spot removal as my benchmark for a creature's survivability) And Twisted Abomination isn't that good.
Blueconcept, we haven't forgotten any of those cards, just read back a page or so and you'll find that we've put them in our Aggro(Sangrophage,Hyppie) and Aggro Control(Hyppie) and Control(nightmare void) decks.
Sjoerd, i'm glad to finally have someone else support Stronghold Overseer. If you read the first 2 pages we were discussing Skeletal Vampire vs Stronghold Overseer as the MBC win con. And i say, Skeletal Vampire though having the ability to chump block with the best of them can't compare the ability of NOT NEEDING to block, which is precisely what Stronghold Overseer, offers. I personally run them as one of my win conditions.
Yeah, I agree. It's just way too expensive for aggro and it doesn't bring anything to the table for control, especially when it's up against an almost unblockable 5/5 that can debuff all of their non-shadow creatures and a 4/4 flying that only goes down to mass removal. It looks pretty good on paper, but no matter what kind of deck you're playing, there's a better alternative.
Main
4 Terramorphic Expanse
15 Swamp
4 Festering Goblin
4 Plagued Rusalka
4 Neither Traitor
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Nantuko Husk
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Mortivore
4 Funeral Charm
4 Last Gasp
3 Bad Moon
4 Sudden Death
SB:
3 Stromgald Crusader
4 Garza's Assassin
3 Darkness
3 Sudden Spoiling
This deck is fast enough without Bob. Also I'm supprised no one is useing Mortivore. Regeneration and a growing body (thanks to Nantuko Husk).
Fixed with deck tags. The problem with Mortivore is that there is no guarantee that he will get any bigger than a 4/4 in a dual since you have no way of filling up your yard from your deck and you could very well be facing down a control deck with only 1 or 2 creatures. He would be better for the sideboard. Why not replace him with your faceless butchers instead since you are obviously aware of the combo with the husk?
Ah this is again were I state my point on versatility. The abomination is a card that will not fall dead early mid or late game. Its in fact a card that can be used for mana fixing/card drawing in the early stages and as an extra creature in the later stages. Also it has quircky interactions with cards like zombify for those interrested.
To you response on how its not card drawing SyNide, you are right its not card drawing especifically... but it does one thing: thin out your deck... even if it looks only for a swamp its one less swamp there virtually you pile card advantage meaning that thats not a swamp youll draw later int eh 6th turn when youre not interrested ina swamp. Can you tell me why some people run Mishra's Bauble or Terramorphic Expanse when theyre obviously sub par.... because of card advantage. Also dont forget the fact that this is specialized card drawing, two swamps and a twisted abomination and you know you have 3 swamps.
you also cant debase the card because it dies to black removal... everything dies to black removal short of the overseer or akroma or the skyswalower and those are 6+ mana cost cards that do nothing else than be a big creature and even then they can be killed by Sudden Spoiling or Wrath of God. Hell 95% of all standard use creatures will die to black removal like last gasp or sudden death, some of those being very powerful anyways (loxodon hierarch, agustin, ghost council, skeletal vampire, hippy, Orhan Viper, etc) and they still get used.
Again you are stuck on the idea of it being only a creature. No its not the greatest creature ever, and sure as a finisher the overseer does a better job, a lot of creatures do a better job. But the fact is that this should be NOT be treated as a 5/3 regenerator only, it should be looked for its application of being both creature and mana fixer/card drawer.
of course you are right this only applies to MBC butive played the deck type before and i know how mana hungry MBC is and i know this is the perfect solution for that kind of thing... and I know that this can also become a threat if I dont want a mana fixer later. theres were the card's gold standard is.
on the side: the overseer is an excelent card.... theres just a lot of competition out there, the main ones being:
Skeletal Vampire and Sengir Nosferatu.
The Nosferatu is great try him out, annoying a la Ghost Council. In my opinion the best ceature choice for a aggro-control style deck whith plague slivers and such since you should keep the curve as low as possible to win quickly while still controling the game.
The Skeletal Vampire vs Overseer discussion would be a long one but the fact is this: its meta game dependant. Both can get out of control quick both have power both are for control only mono black decks as aggro would not include them in a million years and aggro-control has more and cheaper options.
:mad1:Apprentice of Lavamancy:mad1:
playing in standard:
Mono Black Control
(from hell):evil: