Welcome
The will to take power no matter what, this is the Epitome of Mono-Black Control. This deck Archetype has been around for ages, but lately its been overshadowed by decks like Dragonstorm, Dralnu du Louvre, tron in it's many incarnations, Solarflare and other decks. With the Advent of Timespiral, and now Planar Chaos MBC returns with avengeance.
This thread is PURELY for MONO BLACK, this is for all those Black Mages that are sick and tired of having to splash other colours, with the Timespiral Block, we get a whole lot more cards to play that are all very powerful.
Why Black? Ever since the shifting of the colour pie(pre-planar Chaos), which led to the removal of dark ritual and blacks total lack of enchantment removal, black has evolved in 2 ways:
1: It has developed into a highly offense-oriented colour, that is, it is more willing than other colours to do anything to get the upperhand. True that historically this is how black has always been, but now more than ever, because sacrifice for power fits with the flavour that WotC are looking for we as Black mages gain access to more efficient creatures and effects. Effects of this shift can be seen in cards like Garza's Assassin, Smallpox, Plague Sliver and Liege of the Pit. This usually means that we get alot of powerful creatures for pretty cheap.
2: Black has also become a very "Anti" colour. Black has become a colour that gains most advantage by disadvantaging opponents. It's great deal of creature removal allows Black to deal with aggro, Its Discard is the best Control killer in the game and a good way to gain relative card advantage. Now it's control aspect will be even greater, because we can utilize the classic board sweeper in the form of Damnation and Counterspell effects. Black gains the advantage by putting others at a disadvantage. Examples of this: Stupor, Phthisis, Persecute, Nightmare Void.
Because of the very nature of the colour, Black is the Ideal colour to mix Aggro and Control, the ability to not only shunt enemy creatures, but spells as well. Black also has graveyard destruction, which is typically very limited/Non-existent in other colours. Black can reach all sorts of places that other colours cant. Now more so.
What is this Thread for?
This thread was originally made to Discuss Mono-Black Decks in all its incarnations and variants, in an effort to bring about highly competitive Mono-Black Decks, this includes Aggro and Control. Now this may cause confusion to many, but it's very simple. Only BLACK decks can be posted here, Strictly NO other colours. Pure Black, no splashing, nothing of that sort. However, because it was moved to Competitive, and Nan made this into MBC, we will be concentrating only on Mono-Black Control.
Guidelines 1: Please Card tag all card references so that it will be easier to discuss.
2: No Colours other than black is allowed here, Artifacts are ok.
This deck is what i've been running for awhile, although i have not tested it out as much, it's proven to play very well. It was able to hold its own against some of the best decks in the format just before Dralnu du louvre(i stopped playing due to exams for awhile). Anyway, feel free to use this as a base, post your latest incarnations, and i'll continue updating this post, so check back periodically to see whats new.
Cards For Occasions Here i'm going to list down cards that i think are suitable for varying situations, There may or may not be better cards for these categories, but if there are, please post them and we can discuss them.
Strategies and Tips With any Mono coloured deck, you'll always find that you are more limited in card choices than any other colour. Especially with mono-black because as of late our roles have been so squeezed to mere destruction of creatures and bringing them back. Only now, with the screwing of the colour pie, are we getting anything that helps makes us competitive. However, I digress. One lesson that i have taken from playing mono-black over the years(yes i was playing mono-black during ravnica) is that it is not the cards(having good cards is half the battle but...) or the colour we choose, It is very much the playstyle.
Most people who play multi-coloured decks are spoilt for choice in what they can do, but the truth is, every colour has the means to counter or defeat everything in magic. It just depends on how easy or obvious that solution is. So, Always be willing to try new cards, or old cards that others do not deem to be "competitive". The truth is, alot of times the solutions you find, will be the ones that no one expects. And in that there is strength. So, don't be disheartened and don't take everything said in this thread to be the absolute law. Remember, it's the player who wins, not the deck.
Don't worry, more categories and tips are to come, if you'd like to help with the building of this list, just pm what you think should be in, or categories i should put in and i'll get to it as soon as possible.
Please Post Your comments, opinions, deck ideas and whatever. Just Make sure its MONO-BLACK.
Mono-Black mages unite! (Damn that sounded corny) Anyway, on first glance, some cards for your lists. Win Conditions: Sengir Nosferatu, Plague Sliver, Nether Traitor. Those are some initial cards, I'll think of more for both that list and the others. Nether Traitor looks amazing. He keeps coming back and can even dodge most hate against him. He can dodge graveyard hate and removed from game (henceforth known as rfg) hate as long as you have sac engines. Your opponent may eventually be able to deal with it, but it'll take him 2-3 cards to your one. Then you snicker and play another.
Anyway, here's my aggro/control deck, titled Dead Man's Hand.
Notes: I really like the 20/20/20 split for this deck, it seems balanced. Sudden Spoiling is an amazing card that single-handedly ruins Simic Swallower, other untargetables and misc. problem creatures. Desert is also going to be an automatic 1-2 of in most multicolor decks, and mono color can afford to run 4. Even without that, it's still good. Nether Traitor and Dauthi Slayer are my two win conditions. Both are almost unblockable, and the former should never die. Together they do plenty of damage. I won't have to use a big clunky beatstick and fear revealing it with Bob. All right, TV show's on, gotta run.
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Hey, firstly i've made a few changes added alot more cards in the lists above. Anyway Nice to see there are others who share my love for Mono-Black.
Enemy Within, You're deck is abit odd, But i don't think nether traitor should be in your deck, you don't have anything you can use to pump it with and it's not really worth the slot, It's cool and all but why not try Stromgald Crusader? it doesn't have the immortality, but it is definitely worth it.
Hmmm, you know what card is really good? Mindstab, friggin awesome card you can overwhelm control decks with discard on that 1 turn, destroy any chances he has. What do you think?
i second SyNide for Mindstab; it's also good for some of the new madness/storm stuff. also, Phthisis IS something. it's sorta like a Seal of Doom, either your opponent counters/prevents THAT, or another removal from your hand.
The only problem I have with Mindstab is that its casting cost is six mana. I really don't want to lose six life to Bob. Nether Traitor isn't really in there to be pumped, he's actually more of a utility/eventual win condition. He survives just about anything and continues to hit my opponent for 1 each turn, thanks to haste and shadow. Plus, it's got great synergy with Plagued Rusalka and any other sac engines I may decide to run. This deck right now is just a plan, to really know how it will work I'll have to play it in the new environment. I'm almost certain some things in the decklist will be changing. Stromgald Crusader I don't really see as good in this environment, since it is so easy to kill. A lot of decks will be running Desert, which automatically kills it. I myself will run a playset. One toughness for an offensive creature (excepting Nether Traitor, because he never really dies), even one with evasion, is not great. I have played the Crusader in tournaments before, and found he isn't quite as good as he looks, at least in my local meta. There was one situation where I had two out, and my opponent played Electrolyze, dealing one damage to both and then drawing a card. That isn't the only such situation, I've found that there are so many cheap, advantageous (to my opponent) ways of killing it that its not worth playing against a non-white deck. The Crusader could be sideboard material against a deck with heavy white in it though, I'll have to see. I'll need SB space for Withered Wretch and Tormod's Crypt, though, so I may just leave it out as its not a necessity. Thanks for the suggestions, I will consider them, but probably won't make any changes until I try the deck out and see how it plays. I may build one with proxies to test it before TS comes out.
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Here is the deck that Im testing with right now, and may definately be bringing to Standard Champs in October.
Its a lot like old Suicide Black decks that I used to play years ago in Tempest-Urzas T2 Season. Anyway here is the List im currently running.
So far, the deck has been very consistent (or maybe im just a little too used to playing 2 or 3 color constructed decks) and Im really loving it. The only thing that really frightens me is this decks absolute vulnerability to Wrath of God.
Oh well some more testing will be the judge I suppose. I think that by turn 4 we will have a Control player in a bad spot, and I am hoping that even if he pulls of the Turn 4 ***, we may be able to stabalize again, or at last get enough damage through for the win.
SO any comments/seggestions on my deck? It would be appreciated.
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
@Consume_Spirit_CDS: I recommend Nether Traitor for your *** woes. BB for 1/1 may not be optional...but he has haste, shadow, and is pretty much immortal, so he laughs at *** and keeps smacking your opponent upside the head (and my previous posts show how much I love this card). I think Haste makes up for his inefficient stats. Also, at least sideboard Sudden Spoiling. You might also consider Tormod's Crypt and Withered Wretch for sideboard as well. Sudden Spoiling is basically a much more versatile, almost uncounterable, one-sided Darkness for two more mana. Also, in mono-black, Garza's Assassin is usually better than Seal of Doom.
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I know that it looks like Infernal Tutor has no place in here, but it helps fetch a second Curse of the Cabal. After suspending the first one, you suspend one the next turn, creating a lock that your opponent does not like nor does he/she know how to handle it. Another nice thing about the Curse is if your opponent was going to let it resolve or not, you can sac to it as well, like if your Arena is getting out of hand, you opponent has got a Pillory of the Sleepless on something, etc. Funeral Charm is an excellent card, you can either at the end of their turn kill their first turn play or force a discard. Smallpox can be a game winner if played on the second turn on the play. You play a swamp, go, they play a forest, bird, go, play a swamp, play smallpox, ouch! Rats are a good early discard/chump blocker. Psychotic Episode is like a Hinder for mono-black. Vampire/Totem are your win conditions. The Totem provides accel as well until you have a lock down. The Batman can control combat so well it is almost not fair. The Arena is an excellent card that should be included in any deck that is control and black. Sudden Death takes care of cards such as Ghost Council of Orzhova. Desert is a good way to handle pro:Black creatures. As for the sideboard, they pretty much push the edge depending on the matchup. Cruel Edict is just a good, early removal spell, wether it is a pro:Black guy, untargetable, etc. Nightmare Void is good against the mirror, another control deck, etc. Tormod's Crypt is for any kind of graveyard loving deck (read:Firemane Control, Dredge, Draakon, Solar Flare, etc.) , but if those decks start to fall, The Rack might come in to battle any thing that dumps it hand fast (burn, Rakdos Control, etc.) making my discard not a very good call against them. Plagued Sliver is for another finisher and any kind of Sliver.dec that you might come across is totally hosed.
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I think one card that many people disregard is Grave Pact I use this as sideboard and it is INVALUABLE against aggro. A trade becomes a 2 for 1, plagued rusalka becomes a house and their removal spells become more difficult decisions for them. I also think that plagued sliver is amazing and i cant imagine why its not in everyone's main deck. I'm still undecided about the phyrexian totem though. I also don't like Curse of the Cabal, it just seems like if they have to sac one permanent every other turn, its not that great...
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Originally Posted by PolarBearGod
I would hate to be the people who try and keep everything secretive about new sets and stuff. Magic players are like crack fiends for info on new stuff - myself included I guess.:rolleyes:
Heres my future black aggro build, ive been testing it thoughroughly vs other decks xurrent and future inventions as well.
Now it has a very good win rate being very agresive like the hand to hand builds or white aggro, but there are two cards that have to be layed effectively in order to work: Small Pox and Funeral Charm
Fureneral Charm Ive found isnt just a 1st turn lets discard a card thing, its better used as the pumpper/creature killer, effectively making a dauthi slayer/hypnotic specter deal 4 damage in one turn or killing another guys either because he has 1 toughness or because you blocked him with some guy and made him killable.
Small Pox... all I have to say about this card is that its dangerous. Its one of the single best cards ever made in my opinion, and if played right can spell game. Ive seen its best when used 2nd turn on playing; especially if they play some first turn thing like savanah lions, BOP or some other; if they do it acts as a: SINKHOLE and CRUEL EDICT and FUNERAL CHARM all in one, life loss being gravy. Just evil. But you do have to tread carefully as you can get into that same spiral since you sacrifice a land and discard a card (supposing you dont sac a creature), this can also lead to a very quick game loss since you played it wrong, its all about practice i guess. In the very worse case scenario (its happened) i guess all you worry about it thinking youll win and taking out a BOP + shockland only to have a dodecapod discarded on you >.<
Cards I dont use and why:
1.Sangrophage: I just dont like him. Carnophage was good as it provided a 2 to 1 ratio, having a 2/2 body for 1 mana spent and 1 life each turn. This isnt providing that, in any case I woulve preffered using raving oni slave... god knows that i would be dealt as much damage in the course of 3 turns.
2. Plague Sliver: i do like it, its just the incorrect built for it. Since theres no dark ritual this time around you cant reasonably puthim into an agro deck and let him go. This deck is meant to be faster that to wait for turn 4 and play a beatstick. Still a possibility though.
Wow, this is great, for a moment there i thought only a very few people like PURE Mono-Black the way i do, but this is awesome.
Anyway, Consume, i particularly like your deck, and Enemywithin is quite right about Nether Traitor(this is particularly wicked with Bad Moon), since you have plagued rusalka, in resp to *** going off, just sac the traitor so that he can be retrieved after, really good stuff, about your weakness to ***, just don't over-extend yourself, the last thing anyone wants is to be in Topdeck mode when *** goes off. The thing about magic is that, the way you play also heavily affects how well you do. So someone who doesn't know how to play solar flare could possibly lose to someone packing a budget deck.
Enemywithin, we are of the same heart, Garza's Assassin is awesome, so what if you lose a 1/2 your life, Toss in a Magus of the Mirror and you're opponent takes a giant loss.
Szadek, i really like your usage of curse of the cabal, i mean, thats brilliant, the main beauty of this card is the fact that it's so hard to actually counter suspend, so this card is a real killer against slower decks. In This Block Black has quite advantage because it is usually the only colour that can attack players in zones other than the board, while still being king of the board with Creature removal. I was mourning the loss of hideous laughter, but they gave black something MUCH better, Sudden Spoiling, Untargettable? Pro Black? Hah! no problem, it's even got split second!!! i don't think you even need to consider whether to use this or not. Also, I highly recommend Stronghold Overseer over skeletal vampire, why? because the Overseer's ability shuts down Any, Token or saproling deck. It really counter's vitu-ghazi and other decks that win by using non-shadow creatures. It Makes Batman into a 2/3, all this for 2 mana, also, it has Shadow! thats extremely good evasion right there man. Thats why when people mention Batman as a win con, i say Stronghold Overseer for the win!
Melchmon, the reason why you're doing very well against ctrl is because discard is the control killer, what i suggest for your sideboard is more creature removal, or try Sudden Spoiling as a really cool combat trick, assign blockers then Suddenly spoil his plans! And Avatar of Forest is quite right about Gravepact, it's extremely good against aggro, and because it's sacrifice, it goes through targetting and protection, although Gravepact does have it's short comings, for one thing it's too slow coming out, 2nd opponents can just choose to sac token creatures or something like that. Get a hold of a play set of Sudden Death, will definitely be worth it.
Koschei, i highly recommend using mindstab, overall your deck is very solid, it's typically you(counterpost lover). You're running one of my most favourite cards in the Set...
Loxodon, both your decks are really good, for your sui deck, i highly recommend Soulspike, so what if its 7 mana and you run confidant, its an amazing card, it doubles as creature removal or a 8 point swing to the head.
Sengir, your deck is a great example of MB Aggro-Control, awesome stuff.
One card, that is awesome but is currently being forgotten by Many(Koschei and Szadek excluded) is Phyrexian Totem, this card dodges all sorcery speed removal, works as accel and is phyrexian negator. So what if you have to sac a permanent, if you use it at the right time(after emptying his hand and clearing his board of anything that can KILL the totem) your totem can swing in for the last bits of damage. I personally love this card.
Anyway, Check out what you think of my deck, I call it Beatdown Control, but the guys i played with today said it's very much control, what do you guys think?(btw this deck is made out of cards that i actually have, as such its not totally complete)
Once again, let me stress that this is not complete yet, the complete version will have 1 or 2 more Persecutes and more Stronghold Overseer. This deck controls on all fronts(i just realized this is MBC), my Sideboard will carry Tormod's Crypts and Sudden Spoiling. My deck uses the bloom to create alot more extra mana on turn 3 so that i can either power a sengir nosferatu in or an arena after a totem, depends on the opponent i fight. This deck relies alot on how you actually play, so you need to know how to face certain decks, i am personally very pleased with this, but i'm looking for opinions from others. I know that pro black creatures will be a problem, but i'm going to be getting my sudden spoiling soon, i'm also thinking of using mouth of ronom against pro black creatures. I use soul spikes, and phyrexian totems to power through the last few hits. The thing about this deck is to always stay cool and in control.
I think that Enemy's deck is the closest to being optimal from all the lists I have seen up to now, at least for MBA. Here is my take.
1) We need more creatures! 20 isn't enough, and our curve should max out at C.C. 4 (please leave the area, Avatar of Woe!) and should hit all the mana costs from 1 to 4 inclusive
2) Wrath of God is a problem, the only solution we have is Persecute, so run 3 main deck try and win the roll to go first!
3) Bad Moon is our friend, 4 maindeck please
4) Spot removal is important, but cruel edicts will be needed maindeck to deal with Akroma and SSS.
5) Snow lands Vs. Non-snow: I love the draw from the Sheets and Mouth of Ronom, but I think they are too expensive mana-wise for us here. I love the inclusion of Desert that some people have been using instead.
Like i said Loxodon, i'm using cards which i currently have, unfortunately i can't find my old Avatar of Woes, and i don't have helldozers or more persecutes.
Hmmm, i disagree about lotus bloom, It's excellent, for one thing it allows me to play a slightly smaller mana base giving me more room for actual cards, not just that, so far, i've found that lotus bloom gives me quite an edge. Why was Dark Ritual or black lotus so good? because they are very explosive mana accel, and though bloom is slightly slower, it's still very useful to power out either win conditions or hand destruction. Also, Nightmare Void is a very good card, it definitely hurts control decks immensely, when i get more persecutes and my stupors i'll lower the number of nightmare voids i have, but right now, this is fine. Hmmm, I'll probably take out Soul Collectors later, but right now, it's a nice card to have, why you ask? well i've been able to take my opponents by surprise and take control of his creatures, this is especially good for cards which are able to return from the grave(dregde). Stromgald Crusaders are just there temporarily, until i get more of certain cards. Right now, it's good because it has protection from White and it can pump. Either Way i don't think i'll play Skeletal Vampire, i just don't like it very much, I prefer Stronghold Overseer. About the Nosferatu, well, i like his ability to dodge alot of removal, also, with enough mana, you can untap him for a surprise blocker on an opponent's turn. And, he's pretty much immortal after you have the mana to pay for his ability. With Lotus Bloom, it's very possible to have enough mana to save the nosferatu when you cast him. I think he is a solid card.
Hammer, Wrath of god is not that big a problem, because with bad moon, your damage output will be alot better, just don't over-extend yourself, example: You have 1 Stromgald Crusader in play, you have 2 other creatures in your hand, just keep swinging and pumping the crusader, use the crusader to draw out his removal, then after the *** is out, Play out your other creatures. Wrath of god is not that great a problem, we just need to know how to play against different cards and decks. I think your deck is really lacking in creature removal *cough- Sudden Death -cough*, you need sudden death, no question about that, it's far too easy for an opponent to sac a sub-par creature as compared to him saccing his Silhana Legdewalker/Akroma/SSS, Maybe you might prefer Faceless Devourer as compared to butcher, it's got good evasion and it's 1 mana cheaper! i don't like desert as much as Mouth of Ronom, for one thing, its alot more damage and it is creature removal all by itself, don't bother too much with scrying sheets, with Blacks card draw, Mana should not a problem at all, especially not for MBA.
Night, your deck is kinda nice, Aggro-Control, but you with the large cards that you might reveal with Confidant, you need either life gain, or, some sort of sac engine as a panic button.
You know, we could use Terramorphic Expanse, why? We're playing mono! Well, for one, this card allows us to technically play a 56 card deck. I think it's good because it thins out our decks, and generates greater consistency. Thoughts?
One card, that is awesome but is currently being forgotten by Many(Koschei and Szadek excluded) is Phyrexian Totem, this card dodges all sorcery speed removal, works as accel and is phyrexian negator. So what if you have to sac a permanent, if you use it at the right time(after emptying his hand and clearing his board of anything that can KILL the totem) your totem can swing in for the last bits of damage. I personally love this card.
the phyrexian totem is a great card indeed, personally im gona collect them. The only build I see them going into is MBC, were it serves both as acceleration and a creaure slot (albeit dangerous). Its something id think about sticking into a deck together with some Sengir Nosfertu, Stonghold Overseer or Skeletal Vampire.
Which brings me to my next point. I see that no person has payed their respects to the Skeletal Vampire. Stronghold overseer is great and all, but i think the vampire is much more controling, overseer is for the pure control build with a finisher (aka kokusho) the vampire is for the more agresive control build (the one with plague slivers and all).
Also i see little respect to Stupor and Funeral Charm. Ive played Black for a long time, and both those cards haer proven powerful. Try them out im sure they wont dissapoint you.
Remeber one thing, Funeral charm actas as removal, pumper, combat trick, evasion on a stick (swampwalk) and INTANT SPEED DISCARD.... all for one mana; its something I see veyr few decks taking into consideration.
Stupor is the 2B discard spell we have needed for a while providing an excelent 2 for 1 card advantage and causing the oponent to discard things they dont wana discard (remeber one is random!)
ah also my first modification to my list.... switching the Crusader for the Withered Wretch. Why:
Because grave removal is necesary. Im very annoyed by Solar Flare and Firemane Control and some Debtor's Knell coming around and doing ugly ugly things. The wretch is both aggro and effective grave control. Also desert is annoying me and killing the crusader WAY TO MUCH
this also opens for a brand new sideboard option: deathmark. with all of the green and white creatures that are running around its a card that wont just go unoticed on most matchups!
Also this brings me into anoher discussion: Nether Traitor vs Plagued Rusakla in aggro build. Both have their pros and cons both are great cards which should be in. I cant decide since they are both stellar in the build and I cant pin the metagame just yet (rusalka is for a much more aggro oriented meta and spirit is for a more control oriented/heavy hitter meta)
@SyNide: I have to agree on the fact that stupor has to be taken in instead of Nightmare void. Stupor is much of a better card for control. Nightmare Void just wont cause too much problems.
Also the soul collector is deficient int he build. Go with the Skeletal Vampire if you want evasion or Helldozer if you want land control. Avatar of Woe not so much as its less impressive than either of the two options. also add the 2 totems as Lozodon points out as they are better than blooms providing both creature and accel at the same time (permanent accel also better than bloom) doont remove the blooms though as they do fit the deck
also the idea of terramorphic expanse is great, but only for the control build. the much faster agro build need the lands untapped to be good so its not necesary to thin out the deck so much. In any case also try out mishra's bauble for deck thinning
@Loxodon: the Nosferatu is great for two reasons:
First hes a 4/4 beatstick with evasion for only 3BB, very reasonable cost for such a creature
and second he has built in bullet evasion, if they are gona kill him well turn him inot a bat token. His ability allows him to poof and do sick things. I do remeber another 4/4 with a similar ability is a powerhouse so why wouldnt this be (Orzchov Ghost Council) specially when this one has evasion
Hammer, Wrath of god is not that big a problem, because with bad moon, your damage output will be alot better, just don't over-extend yourself, example: You have 1 Stromgald Crusader in play, you have 2 other creatures in your hand, just keep swinging and pumping the crusader, use the crusader to draw out his removal, then after the *** is out, Play out your other creatures. Wrath of god is not that great a problem, we just need to know how to play against different cards and decks. I think your deck is really lacking in creature removal *cough- Sudden Death -cough*, you need sudden death, no question about that, it's far too easy for an opponent to sac a sub-par creature as compared to him saccing his Silhana Legdewalker/Akroma/SSS, Maybe you might prefer Faceless Devourer as compared to butcher, it's got good evasion and it's 1 mana cheaper! i don't like desert as much as Mouth of Ronom, for one thing, its alot more damage and it is creature removal all by itself, don't bother too much with scrying sheets, with Blacks card draw, Mana should not a problem at all, especially not for MBA.
I see your point about dealing with Wrath, I guess the persecutes could be moved to the sideboard for 3 x Sudden Death. I definitely would not play with the Faceless Devourer over the Faceless butcher as you will most likely end up removing one of your own creatures with his ability since it is a 'must' and not a 'may' ability. The C.C. and evasion are nice, but not at the cost of versatility. It's not like there are going to be a ton of shadow decks running around soon! I also disagree about having the 5 mana for the Mouths, I just don't think you can reliably get there. Maybe the deserts could be replaced by terramorphic expanse for added land thinning.
Sengir: Funeral Charm and Stupor are ok, but I can't see them being more powerful than mass discard like Persecute or effective spot removal. I just don't find that Stupor and the Charm do enough to warrant their inclusion in the deck compared with stuff like Soul Spike, Bad Moon, etc. which tie in directly with the Black Weenie strategy.
Edit: I am absolutely loving the new set's effects on Standard. Just look at all the neat decks that have suddenly popped up! The DFC forum is on fire!
Sengir: Funeral Charm and Stupor are ok, but I can't see them being more powerful than mass discard like Persecute or effective spot removal. I just don't find that Stupor and the Charm do enough to warrant their inclusion in the deck compared with stuff like Soul Spike, Bad Moon, etc. which tie in directly with the Black Weenie strategy.
I have to agree that Bad Moon is directed after the black weenie stragedy but Soul Spike not so much. I have my set of soul spikes and love them you are wrong to think that a weenie stragedy should keep 2 cards to alternate cast it or even worse... come to a mana point ot hard cast it. I agree on the bad moon if you look at my decklist I run 4, but the soul spike not so much as its oriented for a different time different place, in any case not for your deck since id use it qith Phyrexian arena and not the confidant.
Persecute is also an excelent card and allways will be, but it will never hit hands as fast as Stupor can hit it,if it goes though it sometimes fails (this happens in multicolor decks or when there as land/artifact hands) Persecute in a mono black control is thumbs up in my approach in an agro deck stupor is the better choice as it has a smaller casting cost and can be just as devastating. In any case Im still sideboarding them and possibly will move them maindeck if need be.
Also the funeral charm shouldnt be taken strictly as removal either its the flexibility aspect of the card that makes it shine. look at the lists of cards that can be killed directly with the charm at instant speed (BOP, Confidant, Wayferer, Lions, magus of the scroll, elves, rusalkas, Voidmage Prodigy, Soltary preist, Traitor Il Vec...). then take into consideration that its not a removal spell directly. It also serves as a pump spell literaly giving your guys +2 and having deal 4+ damage in 1 turn, also consider that it can serve as combat trick by making you guy bigger to take out a threat that blocked or make a huge threat unblockable in the mirror match or in any match that brings a swamp for that reason. Add to that that it serves as Intant speed discard possibly nullyfing a turn in the late game or throwing off you oponent EOT by making him discard something following with persecute or Stupor. All at 1 little mana and instant speed;you have the most flexible spell in standard.
While you can claimtheres cards that each individual thing better, you cant claim that any of those cards can do ALL of them at the same time in a reasonable way.
**flexibility is key to making a succesful deck** the more flexible the spell the more useful it is. Cruel Edict might be great but is it effective vs a creatureless deck. Funeral Charm can attack creatures (+2/-1 aspect), control (discard), combat trick (+2/-1), and utility evasion (swampwalk), pump spell for damage (+2/-1). Never a dead card.
This is the same reason I take SmallPox into the deck. It is another spell that serves as Land destruction, creature control, hand control and direct damage.
If you look again at my decklist it is the flexibility that I talk about that allows me to run "12" creature destruction spells (Small Pox, Sudden Death and Funeral Charm) while running "11" Discard Spells (SmallPox, Funeral Charm and Stupor) and "8" pump spells (Bad moon and Funeral Charm). Effectively giving me "30" so called spells at the cost of 19 card slots. This no counting the creatures that serve as discard (Hypnotic Specter) grave control (wretch) and card draw (Confidant)
EDIT: on the vesuva discussion im still testing the posibility of using it to deal with legendary lands. If that istnmuch of a worry then take ot as swamps intead or use terramorphic expanse
First off, this thread, or at least is creator, is really, really cheesy. Let me go don my black hooded robe and conjure my imp familiar before I post my decklist here, bwahahahaha.<===(sargasmic)
All I'm looking for is a decklist that's fun to play, and that consistantly wins. Unfortunately, unless we dip into another color for the strengths that the color provides, Mono-Black-Anything will probably not make it to tier 1. I mean, what do we do about counters? What do we do about removal for our creatures? And where the hell is our Mutilate?!?
Anywho, enough of my complaining. It seems we'll never have our Torment style MBC back, and there's not much we can do about it. Here's the best I can do with the cards given to me:
I'm undecided right now on how to deal with Paladin En-Vec. Sure, Cruel Edict and Smallpox can "hit" it, but they will, and should, have other creatures on the board. Mr. Vec totally destroys a MB anything, and with Desert, you need two of them and it's AFTER combat, not good if it gets pumped for lethal. Desert is good for White Shield Crusader, but honestly, WW/x has better options so highly unlikely. What I propose is making Quicksand a maindeck option. Sure, you have to sac it to kill a Ev-Vec, but with the threat of killing their creature, they will not attack into it, keeping your mana base secured. Sure, you could go with Mouth of Ronom, but that is way slower and ties up a lot of mana. Anyway, what do you think about this?
As for my deck, it looks like this now:
20x Swamp
3x Quicksand(for the Jerk)
4x Phyrexian Arena(always need more cards)
3x Persecute(good against burn/control)
4x Phyrexian Totem(accel and win condition, whats not to love?)
4x Skeletal Vampire(going to the sideboard for Plague Sliver, Vamp for very heavy creature decks, allowing me to control combat better, Plague for good, early beats and a hoser for the random Sliver deck you will run into. I only have one right now, but will get a playset ASAP)
4x Funeral Charm(good versatility)
4x Smallpox(game winning card)
4x Cruel Edicit(for those pesky creatures)
4x Curse of the Cabal(good against Aggro or Control)
3x Sudden Death(for the Council or any sacing critter)
3x Sudden Spoiling(excellent combat trick)
Sideboard
3x Nightmare Void(excellent against Control/Burn)
3x Pyschoatic Episode(send the problem card to the bottom; I really, really like this card, it takes away an answer in hand or off the top, even better if they are Hellbent or to set up a perfect Persecute)
1x Persecute(see above)
4x Stupor(just a nice card)
4x some random card until I get Plague Sliver and move the Skeletal Vampire to the board.
The sideboard is to change the matchup problems, if you run into a creatureless or near creatureless deck, just sideout all the creature control options for the discard options. Now I know some people don't like Nightmare Void, but if you get your win condition on line(seven mana for Totem or a resolved Plague), then you can just keep Voiding them every turn to take away their answers and too see if you would get the most out of attacking that turn or just passing the turn.
Now about the Stronghold Overseer, I say nay. Don't get me wrong, I thourghly enjoy the Stonghold Overseer, but in some matchups, he just isn't a good choice. What if you are getting beatdown and need some blockers? The Overseer is not going to do that for you, as where the Vamp will at least buy you a turn, if not more. The Overseer is mana intensive just like the Vamp, but he does not bring extra bodies with him and cannot do a thing about a creature without shadow other then bringing their attack down, but if you tapped out to do this, then you are SOL. The Batman, is better against aggro and control, plain and simple, he provides more versatility. The Overseer just cannot do anything about combat if you are tapped out, as where the Batman at least has a fighting chance.
P.S. Has anyone playtested MBC/SuiBlack decks yet to see what matchups are good/bad?
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and we officially enter terretory of old on "how does black deal with pro black creatures" This is ancient stuff since the black knight/white knight era.
As explained the Small Pox and Cruel Edict can "hit" the paladin but they arent great options since white also has that ability to everwhelm us with other creatures so it might not even be able to deal with him.
Both desert and Quicksand can "deal" with him too but that also is unlike ly since white also has pup effects like Glorious Anthem.
So whats my solution: none :D, black will do what black has done all through time against white knight and the likes. BEAT WHITE AT HIS OWN GAME. one thing that is different between black and white decks is that black creatures tend to have evasion as well of power. Paladin en Vec can have pro black but cant block our Hypnotic Specter, Dauthi Slayers, Nether Traitor or Stromgald Crusader. Giving us more than enough options to attack and evade than they have on their side. They can try to race us but attacking with the paladin only gives a faster race since youll attack more without the paladin blocking. Without the Jitte in standard he shouldnt be too much of a problem aside from trying to stall the game but the game that is so if a paladin en vec tries to come into vistory just attack through him and pressure.
Here's a few general things I've noticed, and this is all opinion based. I've tried to back up my opinions with reasons and examples as much as possible.
First off, Cruel Edict is good, but it has a fairly low chance of hitting that Simic Sky Swallower or other untargetable creature. Even in control decks, it's unlikely to see a lone SSS on the board. Many times there will be a BoP, Lanowar Elf, or Saproling Token from Vhitu Ghazi sitting there and blocking your Edict from working properly. I've seen one tron build that even ran Supply//Demand. Before TS, Edict was all we had, so we ran a playset and hoped for the best. But now, we have Sudden Spoiling. It is at least a staple sideboard against u/g builds and other decks that feature untargetable cards. I personally think it's main deckable, but I may be proven wrong on that. But it at least deserves a spot in the board. It may not be Mutilate, but is still a very good effect that cannot be countered under most circumstances (and let's face it, I doubt we'll ever get Mutilate back). At worst, it's a three mana, uncounterable, one-sided Darkness, which still isn't that bad, especially as a worst case scenario. At best, it stops that lethal attack and allows difficult creatures to be dealt with, and gives you that crucial extra turn to gain the edge in a damage race, or even pull off the win if you're able.
The current meta is very blue-centered, and post TS it will be worse with Cancel, Trickbind, Ancestral Vision, Psionic Blast, among others. I predict that the TS-RAV meta will be almost completely u/x, and all decent cards that cannot be countered (via Split Second, mainly) or that blue has a difficult time dealing with must be considered for decks. I was even considering one or two copies of Urza's Factory, but I will hold off on that unless it is necessary, since I like my Deserts better, and Factory is a bit slow. Phyrexian Totem is rather nice in an aggro deck against control, post-wrath. It is mainly a control card, but it could find a place in aggro. It and Nether Traitor provide an interesting semi-solution to Wrath.
Vesuva has no place in mono color decks. Terramorphic Expanse is good in control builds, but aggro can't afford the tempo loss. Scrying Sheets is a decent card in control, but I think it could be replaced by a land that works a bit more consistently. Scrying Sheets usually sees play in decks that have a bit more snow permanents than just their lands, and every black deck I've seen so far runs either Phyrexian Arena or Dark Confidant, so card advantage shouldn't that much of a problem. Perhaps Terramorphic Expanse, Mouth of Ronom, Quicksand, or Desert would work better. Even Urza's Factory might be a consideration. It is slow, but it has virtually no drawback, since in mono color producing colorless isn't that much of a problem. You only produce tokens when you have nothing else to do, which seems to be the case a lot against counter decks.
Curse of the Cabal is a card that I feel is overrated. It's not even the mana cost of 10 that puts me off, because I know it's mainly supposed to be suspended. But it seems like a card that would really need it's own deck to work properly. The problem with suspend in the TS meta (and I'm only predicting here) will be that your opponent will wait for it to come out of suspend and then counter it. Same problem I have with Mindstab. It's a nice idea to force your opponent to discard three cards for one mana, but chances are it'll either be countered upon being put on the stack, or it will be no longer relevant, such as in the case of aggro, which will probably have an empty or close to empty hand by that point. Suspend can be a house in a deck dedicated to the mechanic, but in a normal deck, I don't feel suspend is reliable enough. All right, I've to get to History class soon, although after this essay-length post I think I need a nap. Peace out :sleeping:.
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quicksand must be in side against the jerk, not in maindeck.
curse of the cabal is a lil too... expensive.
You would never hard cast the Curse of the Cabal. This card is to either keep a creature deck under control until you have the win condition set up or too mess with a control deck's mana base. Either way, it is a win/win scenerio.
About Quicksand, if it has no use in the current matchup, it is still a mana producing land, either way, might as well make it MD. I don't like Land in the sideboard. Another quick thought about Quicksand, if they attack with SSS or something else, cast Sudden Spoiling and use Quicksand to kill the threat.
To the above post: If they counter it, that opens the window for you too set up the kill that turn, WHICH IS DEVASTATING for a control deck. Do you let half your Permanents (Lands and maybe Signets' for the control player) go away, totally negating thier resource build up they worked so hard for, sac a permanent to put time counters on it, or do you counter it and hope for the best? There is nothing for the control player to like about that card being suspended AT ALL!
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Man, i'm continually surprised by the sheer number of people here.
Hmm, lets see
Sengir, i like your take on versatility, one of the reasons why i choose to put in 4 soul spikes in is because it allows you to throw out "Dead" cards for a really good effect. And You're definitely right about how to deal with en-vec, but that applies mostly to MBA, for MBC, i think you just need to have enough creature removal to make sure that it's the only one in play to be Edicted, or just run Stronghold Overseer!, why?? i'll tell you in just a bit.
Loxodon, Bloom comes down turn 3, and i don't know about you, but i like the versatility that it gives, i'll always have extra mana if i need it and it adds alot of consistency to most decks(my current build for MBC included). Try, i think you might like it.
SLS(Szadek!), glad to see someone who agrees with me on nightmare void. Also paladin en vec really isnt too much of a problem now, what i find to be the bigger problem is this Akroma, she's got a body too fat to mouth of ronom, and she has pro black, one could use edict or smallpox as with en-vec, but the same short comings apply. I think you should think more about Stronghold Overseer, because you don't ALWAYS have to pump it when you attack. If you see that you're faced with lots of enemy creatures, just save the mana to soften the hit, or totally nullify most of your opponent's creatures, because despite your argument of tapping out, you also have to understand that it's alot better to have creatures attack unblocked but deal little to no damage as compared to chump blocking and letting 1 or 2 through. Another plus of having the Overseer is it's ability to counter all creatures with pro black or untargettability. Think about it, you pay 6 mana to get it down, nvm if you're tapped out one turn, if the game has been in your control the entire time you're bound to be able to take ANYTHING he throws at you, after that, it's no sweat, just leave mana open for De-Pumping. If you need to regain you're life total, just use soul spike if you need more life.
Hammer, both cards are Must effects, but i only just discovered that Faceless Devourer targets only creatures with Shadow(my bad) >.<.
Tyler, maybe i am cheesy, but i still love mono-black, and i'm glad that you brought your imp familiar with you . Anyway, What do we do about counters you ask? Simple, discard them, Nightmare Void, Persecute and Mindstab are particularly brutal against control(this means creature-removal as well), Void because it can either draw out all the counters by dredging, or it can take out particular cards. Mindstab because, it actually allows you to overwhelm the counter player with discard, if he decides to counter that, turn 4 he may not have enough mana to deal with more discard after that. About our Mutilate? why have something much better, Sudden Spoiling, it's uncounterable, it's instant speed, it causes untargettables and pro black creatures to lose they're abilities, best of all, it only targets the Opponent. I say Mono-Black can make it to tier 1, why? because they gave us so many power cards and it's nature makes it a very strong colour. On your deck, everything looks really good, just take out the consume spirits, and max out your cruel edict, last gasp, Sudden Death. OR put in 3 Sudden Spoiling.
Enemywithin, suspend is actually very good, even in decks that aren't dedicated to it, sure you say he might counter the mindstab, but you forget, you're not tapped out for that turn, so that means, if he had countered your mindstab he may not have enough mana to counter 2 spells, or even the next one, this is why mindstab is a control killer, it allows you to overwhelm the enemy, i say it's definitely good, about Curse of the Cabal, i think it's not too shabby if you have multiple copies suspended.
Hmm, anyway, check this out, it's a Curse of the Cabal Deck:
The game plan of this deck is to use mindstab to make the opponent want to get his good stuff out of his hand, this comboes nicely with The Rack. While waiting for mindstab to come out, play your racks, timebugs or search for multiple copies of whatever card you may need(if you're doing ok, look for a 2nd Curse of the Cabal) then, when mindstab comes out(turn 4) suspend your Curse, and watch as your opponent is confounded by what to do next, either he can play his cards and get hit by the rack and sac to curse, or, he can keep cards in his hand, in which case, your creatures start popping out and his options start to slim as you bring the curse closer with the time bug. Smallpox and Funeral Charm are both excellent spells, Smallpox because it reduces the opponent's permanent count and hand size even more. Funeral charm because of it's versatility. For Creatures I've chosen Helldozer for it's obvious power at destroying enemy lands and as a finisher, and Liege of the Pit because it can be an easy 7 damage on turn 4 or 5, then you can sac it to the curse, Phyrexian Totem is beautiful in just about any deck that runs black. i'm still waiting for MWS to come up with a Timespiral base, then i can actually make this deck and play test it. For now, tell me what you think.
The will to take power no matter what, this is the Epitome of Mono-Black Control. This deck Archetype has been around for ages, but lately its been overshadowed by decks like Dragonstorm, Dralnu du Louvre, tron in it's many incarnations, Solarflare and other decks. With the Advent of Timespiral, and now Planar Chaos MBC returns with avengeance.
This thread is PURELY for MONO BLACK, this is for all those Black Mages that are sick and tired of having to splash other colours, with the Timespiral Block, we get a whole lot more cards to play that are all very powerful.
Why Black?
Ever since the shifting of the colour pie(pre-planar Chaos), which led to the removal of dark ritual and blacks total lack of enchantment removal, black has evolved in 2 ways:
1: It has developed into a highly offense-oriented colour, that is, it is more willing than other colours to do anything to get the upperhand. True that historically this is how black has always been, but now more than ever, because sacrifice for power fits with the flavour that WotC are looking for we as Black mages gain access to more efficient creatures and effects. Effects of this shift can be seen in cards like Garza's Assassin, Smallpox, Plague Sliver and Liege of the Pit. This usually means that we get alot of powerful creatures for pretty cheap.
2: Black has also become a very "Anti" colour. Black has become a colour that gains most advantage by disadvantaging opponents. It's great deal of creature removal allows Black to deal with aggro, Its Discard is the best Control killer in the game and a good way to gain relative card advantage. Now it's control aspect will be even greater, because we can utilize the classic board sweeper in the form of Damnation and Counterspell effects. Black gains the advantage by putting others at a disadvantage. Examples of this: Stupor, Phthisis, Persecute, Nightmare Void.
Because of the very nature of the colour, Black is the Ideal colour to mix Aggro and Control, the ability to not only shunt enemy creatures, but spells as well. Black also has graveyard destruction, which is typically very limited/Non-existent in other colours. Black can reach all sorts of places that other colours cant. Now more so.
What is this Thread for?
This thread was originally made to Discuss Mono-Black Decks in all its incarnations and variants, in an effort to bring about highly competitive Mono-Black Decks, this includes Aggro and Control. Now this may cause confusion to many, but it's very simple. Only BLACK decks can be posted here, Strictly NO other colours. Pure Black, no splashing, nothing of that sort. However, because it was moved to Competitive, and Nan made this into MBC, we will be concentrating only on Mono-Black Control.
Guidelines
1: Please Card tag all card references so that it will be easier to discuss.
2: No Colours other than black is allowed here, Artifacts are ok.
Well, Here is an Example of MB Control
Lands
1x Urza's factory
3x Scrying Sheets
20x Snow-Covered Swamp
Creatures
4x Stronghold Overseer
3x Plague Sliver
4x Smallpox
4x Cruel Edict
3x Soul Spike
4x Phyrexian Arena
4x Funeral Charm
3x Persecute
4x Phyrexian Totem
S/B
4x Tendrils of Corruption
4x Shadow of Doubt
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Sudden Death
Cards For Occasions
Here i'm going to list down cards that i think are suitable for varying situations, There may or may not be better cards for these categories, but if there are, please post them and we can discuss them.
Anti-Aggro
Assassinate
Cruel Edict
Dark Banishing
Darkblast
Disembowel
Garza's Assassin
Last Gasp
Sudden Death
Sudden Spoiling
Hissing Miasma
Stronghold Overseer (only against non-shadow creatures)
Smallpox
Grave Pact
Tendrils of Corruption
Anti-Control
Brain Pry
Curse of the Cabal
Funeral Charm
Stupor
Nightmare Void
Persecute
Blackmail
Nightcreep
Mindstab
Psychotic Episode
Wit's End
Win Conditions
Efficient Creatures
Utility
Reanimation
Graveyard Destruction
Useful Artifacts
Useful Lands
Strategies and Tips
With any Mono coloured deck, you'll always find that you are more limited in card choices than any other colour. Especially with mono-black because as of late our roles have been so squeezed to mere destruction of creatures and bringing them back. Only now, with the screwing of the colour pie, are we getting anything that helps makes us competitive. However, I digress. One lesson that i have taken from playing mono-black over the years(yes i was playing mono-black during ravnica) is that it is not the cards(having good cards is half the battle but...) or the colour we choose, It is very much the playstyle.
Most people who play multi-coloured decks are spoilt for choice in what they can do, but the truth is, every colour has the means to counter or defeat everything in magic. It just depends on how easy or obvious that solution is. So, Always be willing to try new cards, or old cards that others do not deem to be "competitive". The truth is, alot of times the solutions you find, will be the ones that no one expects. And in that there is strength. So, don't be disheartened and don't take everything said in this thread to be the absolute law. Remember, it's the player who wins, not the deck.
Don't worry, more categories and tips are to come, if you'd like to help with the building of this list, just pm what you think should be in, or categories i should put in and i'll get to it as soon as possible.
Please Post Your comments, opinions, deck ideas and whatever. Just Make sure its MONO-BLACK.
Empires Rise and Fall, but Evil is Eternal
Anyway, here's my aggro/control deck, titled Dead Man's Hand.
16 Swamp
4 Desert
4 Dark Confidant
4 Plagued Rusalka
4 Nether Traitor
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Sudden Death
4 Last Gasp
4 Cry of Contrition
4 Funeral Charm
Notes: I really like the 20/20/20 split for this deck, it seems balanced. Sudden Spoiling is an amazing card that single-handedly ruins Simic Swallower, other untargetables and misc. problem creatures. Desert is also going to be an automatic 1-2 of in most multicolor decks, and mono color can afford to run 4. Even without that, it's still good. Nether Traitor and Dauthi Slayer are my two win conditions. Both are almost unblockable, and the former should never die. Together they do plenty of damage. I won't have to use a big clunky beatstick and fear revealing it with Bob. All right, TV show's on, gotta run.
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Enemy Within, You're deck is abit odd, But i don't think nether traitor should be in your deck, you don't have anything you can use to pump it with and it's not really worth the slot, It's cool and all but why not try Stromgald Crusader? it doesn't have the immortality, but it is definitely worth it.
Hmmm, you know what card is really good? Mindstab, friggin awesome card you can overwhelm control decks with discard on that 1 turn, destroy any chances he has. What do you think?
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4 Smallpox
3 Garza's Assassin
4 Blackmail
4 Cry of Contrition
4 Dauthi Slayer
2 Pendelhaven
20 Swamp
4 Plagued Rusalka
4 Ravenous Rats
3 Mindlash Sliver
4 Nether Traitor
This is my current sb:
3 Sudden Death
4 Stromgald Crusader
1 Garza's Assassin
3 Plague Sliver
Its a lot like old Suicide Black decks that I used to play years ago in Tempest-Urzas T2 Season. Anyway here is the List im currently running.
3 Plagued Rusalka
3 Festering Goblin
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Slayer
3 Sangrophage
3 Stromgald Crusader
3 Plague Sliver
4 Funeral Charm
3 Last Gasp
4 Bad Moon
4 Sudden Death
Lands:
4 Mouth of Ronom
18 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Nekrataal
3 Darkness
3 Soul Spike
3 Cry of Contrition
3 Seal of Doom
So far, the deck has been very consistent (or maybe im just a little too used to playing 2 or 3 color constructed decks) and Im really loving it. The only thing that really frightens me is this decks absolute vulnerability to Wrath of God.
Oh well some more testing will be the judge I suppose. I think that by turn 4 we will have a Control player in a bad spot, and I am hoping that even if he pulls of the Turn 4 ***, we may be able to stabalize again, or at last get enough damage through for the win.
SO any comments/seggestions on my deck? It would be appreciated.
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4x Funeral Charm
4x Smallpox
4x Ravenous Rats
4x Curse of the Cabal
4x Psychotic Episode
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Phyrexian Arena
4x Skeletal Vampire
4x Phyrexian Totem
4x Sudden Death
4x Desert
16x Swamp
Sideboard
4x Cruel Edict
4x Nightmare Void
4x Tormad's Crypt
3x Plague Sliver
I know that it looks like Infernal Tutor has no place in here, but it helps fetch a second Curse of the Cabal. After suspending the first one, you suspend one the next turn, creating a lock that your opponent does not like nor does he/she know how to handle it. Another nice thing about the Curse is if your opponent was going to let it resolve or not, you can sac to it as well, like if your Arena is getting out of hand, you opponent has got a Pillory of the Sleepless on something, etc. Funeral Charm is an excellent card, you can either at the end of their turn kill their first turn play or force a discard. Smallpox can be a game winner if played on the second turn on the play. You play a swamp, go, they play a forest, bird, go, play a swamp, play smallpox, ouch! Rats are a good early discard/chump blocker. Psychotic Episode is like a Hinder for mono-black. Vampire/Totem are your win conditions. The Totem provides accel as well until you have a lock down. The Batman can control combat so well it is almost not fair. The Arena is an excellent card that should be included in any deck that is control and black. Sudden Death takes care of cards such as Ghost Council of Orzhova. Desert is a good way to handle pro:Black creatures. As for the sideboard, they pretty much push the edge depending on the matchup. Cruel Edict is just a good, early removal spell, wether it is a pro:Black guy, untargetable, etc. Nightmare Void is good against the mirror, another control deck, etc. Tormod's Crypt is for any kind of graveyard loving deck (read:Firemane Control, Dredge, Draakon, Solar Flare, etc.) , but if those decks start to fall, The Rack might come in to battle any thing that dumps it hand fast (burn, Rakdos Control, etc.) making my discard not a very good call against them. Plagued Sliver is for another finisher and any kind of Sliver.dec that you might come across is totally hosed.
Other cards I'm considering are Darkness, Bond of Agony, Brain Pry, Hypnotic Specter, Nekrataal, Persecute, Stronghold Overseer, Nightshade Assassin, Sudden Spoiling, Tendrils of Corruption, Defense Grid, Gauntlet of Power, Serrated Arrows, and Quicksand. If you have any questions as too why, just ask.
Another good option could be go to a Madness deck, Black got good Madness cards and excellent discard outlets.
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4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Nether Traitor
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Stromgald Crusader
2 Sengir Nosferatu
4 Bad Moon
4 Funeral Charm
4 Small Pox
3 Stupor
4 Sudden Death
Lands
4 Vasuva
15 Swamps
3 Sudden Spoiling
3 Dodecapod
3 Persecute
4 Withered Wretch
2 Mindstab
Heres my future black aggro build, ive been testing it thoughroughly vs other decks xurrent and future inventions as well.
Now it has a very good win rate being very agresive like the hand to hand builds or white aggro, but there are two cards that have to be layed effectively in order to work: Small Pox and Funeral Charm
Fureneral Charm Ive found isnt just a 1st turn lets discard a card thing, its better used as the pumpper/creature killer, effectively making a dauthi slayer/hypnotic specter deal 4 damage in one turn or killing another guys either because he has 1 toughness or because you blocked him with some guy and made him killable.
Small Pox... all I have to say about this card is that its dangerous. Its one of the single best cards ever made in my opinion, and if played right can spell game. Ive seen its best when used 2nd turn on playing; especially if they play some first turn thing like savanah lions, BOP or some other; if they do it acts as a: SINKHOLE and CRUEL EDICT and FUNERAL CHARM all in one, life loss being gravy. Just evil. But you do have to tread carefully as you can get into that same spiral since you sacrifice a land and discard a card (supposing you dont sac a creature), this can also lead to a very quick game loss since you played it wrong, its all about practice i guess. In the very worse case scenario (its happened) i guess all you worry about it thinking youll win and taking out a BOP + shockland only to have a dodecapod discarded on you >.<
Cards I dont use and why:
1.Sangrophage: I just dont like him. Carnophage was good as it provided a 2 to 1 ratio, having a 2/2 body for 1 mana spent and 1 life each turn. This isnt providing that, in any case I woulve preffered using raving oni slave... god knows that i would be dealt as much damage in the course of 3 turns.
2. Plague Sliver: i do like it, its just the incorrect built for it. Since theres no dark ritual this time around you cant reasonably puthim into an agro deck and let him go. This deck is meant to be faster that to wait for turn 4 and play a beatstick. Still a possibility though.
x4 Dark Confidant
x4 Stromgald Crusader
x4 Hypnotic Specter
x4 Cruel Edict
x4 Last Gasp
x4 Phyrexian Arena
x4 Soul Spike
x4 Stupor
x4 Consume Spirit
x20 Snow-Covered Swamp
x4 Scrying Sheets
SB:
x4 Withered Wretch
x4 Deathmark
x4 Plague Sliver
x3 Persecute
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Anyway, Consume, i particularly like your deck, and Enemywithin is quite right about Nether Traitor(this is particularly wicked with Bad Moon), since you have plagued rusalka, in resp to *** going off, just sac the traitor so that he can be retrieved after, really good stuff, about your weakness to ***, just don't over-extend yourself, the last thing anyone wants is to be in Topdeck mode when *** goes off. The thing about magic is that, the way you play also heavily affects how well you do. So someone who doesn't know how to play solar flare could possibly lose to someone packing a budget deck.
Enemywithin, we are of the same heart, Garza's Assassin is awesome, so what if you lose a 1/2 your life, Toss in a Magus of the Mirror and you're opponent takes a giant loss.
Szadek, i really like your usage of curse of the cabal, i mean, thats brilliant, the main beauty of this card is the fact that it's so hard to actually counter suspend, so this card is a real killer against slower decks. In This Block Black has quite advantage because it is usually the only colour that can attack players in zones other than the board, while still being king of the board with Creature removal. I was mourning the loss of hideous laughter, but they gave black something MUCH better, Sudden Spoiling, Untargettable? Pro Black? Hah! no problem, it's even got split second!!! i don't think you even need to consider whether to use this or not. Also, I highly recommend Stronghold Overseer over skeletal vampire, why? because the Overseer's ability shuts down Any, Token or saproling deck. It really counter's vitu-ghazi and other decks that win by using non-shadow creatures. It Makes Batman into a 2/3, all this for 2 mana, also, it has Shadow! thats extremely good evasion right there man. Thats why when people mention Batman as a win con, i say Stronghold Overseer for the win!
Melchmon, the reason why you're doing very well against ctrl is because discard is the control killer, what i suggest for your sideboard is more creature removal, or try Sudden Spoiling as a really cool combat trick, assign blockers then Suddenly spoil his plans! And Avatar of Forest is quite right about Gravepact, it's extremely good against aggro, and because it's sacrifice, it goes through targetting and protection, although Gravepact does have it's short comings, for one thing it's too slow coming out, 2nd opponents can just choose to sac token creatures or something like that. Get a hold of a play set of Sudden Death, will definitely be worth it.
Koschei, i highly recommend using mindstab, overall your deck is very solid, it's typically you(counterpost lover). You're running one of my most favourite cards in the Set...
Loxodon, both your decks are really good, for your sui deck, i highly recommend Soulspike, so what if its 7 mana and you run confidant, its an amazing card, it doubles as creature removal or a 8 point swing to the head.
Sengir, your deck is a great example of MB Aggro-Control, awesome stuff.
One card, that is awesome but is currently being forgotten by Many(Koschei and Szadek excluded) is Phyrexian Totem, this card dodges all sorcery speed removal, works as accel and is phyrexian negator. So what if you have to sac a permanent, if you use it at the right time(after emptying his hand and clearing his board of anything that can KILL the totem) your totem can swing in for the last bits of damage. I personally love this card.
Anyway, Check out what you think of my deck, I call it Beatdown Control, but the guys i played with today said it's very much control, what do you guys think?(btw this deck is made out of cards that i actually have, as such its not totally complete)
3x Stromgald Crusader
2x Soul Collector
1x Stronghold Overseer
4x Phyrexian Arena
4x Soul Spike
4x Last Gasp
3x Sudden Death
3x Nightmare Void
2x Mindstab
1x Persecute
2x Phyrexian Totem
20x Swamp
4x Terramorphic Expanse
Once again, let me stress that this is not complete yet, the complete version will have 1 or 2 more Persecutes and more Stronghold Overseer. This deck controls on all fronts(i just realized this is MBC), my Sideboard will carry Tormod's Crypts and Sudden Spoiling. My deck uses the bloom to create alot more extra mana on turn 3 so that i can either power a sengir nosferatu in or an arena after a totem, depends on the opponent i fight. This deck relies alot on how you actually play, so you need to know how to face certain decks, i am personally very pleased with this, but i'm looking for opinions from others. I know that pro black creatures will be a problem, but i'm going to be getting my sudden spoiling soon, i'm also thinking of using mouth of ronom against pro black creatures. I use soul spikes, and phyrexian totems to power through the last few hits. The thing about this deck is to always stay cool and in control.
I think that Enemy's deck is the closest to being optimal from all the lists I have seen up to now, at least for MBA. Here is my take.
1) We need more creatures! 20 isn't enough, and our curve should max out at C.C. 4 (please leave the area, Avatar of Woe!) and should hit all the mana costs from 1 to 4 inclusive
2) Wrath of God is a problem, the only solution we have is Persecute, so run 3 main deck try and win the roll to go first!
3) Bad Moon is our friend, 4 maindeck please
4) Spot removal is important, but cruel edicts will be needed maindeck to deal with Akroma and SSS.
5) Snow lands Vs. Non-snow: I love the draw from the Sheets and Mouth of Ronom, but I think they are too expensive mana-wise for us here. I love the inclusion of Desert that some people have been using instead.
Here's my take:
4 Plagued Rusalka
2 Festering Goblin
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Dark Confident
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Faceless Butcher
3 Persecute
4 Bad Moon
4 Cruel Edict
3 Soul Spike
4 Desert
18 Swamp
Hmmm, i disagree about lotus bloom, It's excellent, for one thing it allows me to play a slightly smaller mana base giving me more room for actual cards, not just that, so far, i've found that lotus bloom gives me quite an edge. Why was Dark Ritual or black lotus so good? because they are very explosive mana accel, and though bloom is slightly slower, it's still very useful to power out either win conditions or hand destruction. Also, Nightmare Void is a very good card, it definitely hurts control decks immensely, when i get more persecutes and my stupors i'll lower the number of nightmare voids i have, but right now, this is fine. Hmmm, I'll probably take out Soul Collectors later, but right now, it's a nice card to have, why you ask? well i've been able to take my opponents by surprise and take control of his creatures, this is especially good for cards which are able to return from the grave(dregde). Stromgald Crusaders are just there temporarily, until i get more of certain cards. Right now, it's good because it has protection from White and it can pump. Either Way i don't think i'll play Skeletal Vampire, i just don't like it very much, I prefer Stronghold Overseer. About the Nosferatu, well, i like his ability to dodge alot of removal, also, with enough mana, you can untap him for a surprise blocker on an opponent's turn. And, he's pretty much immortal after you have the mana to pay for his ability. With Lotus Bloom, it's very possible to have enough mana to save the nosferatu when you cast him. I think he is a solid card.
Hammer, Wrath of god is not that big a problem, because with bad moon, your damage output will be alot better, just don't over-extend yourself, example: You have 1 Stromgald Crusader in play, you have 2 other creatures in your hand, just keep swinging and pumping the crusader, use the crusader to draw out his removal, then after the *** is out, Play out your other creatures. Wrath of god is not that great a problem, we just need to know how to play against different cards and decks. I think your deck is really lacking in creature removal *cough- Sudden Death -cough*, you need sudden death, no question about that, it's far too easy for an opponent to sac a sub-par creature as compared to him saccing his Silhana Legdewalker/Akroma/SSS, Maybe you might prefer Faceless Devourer as compared to butcher, it's got good evasion and it's 1 mana cheaper! i don't like desert as much as Mouth of Ronom, for one thing, its alot more damage and it is creature removal all by itself, don't bother too much with scrying sheets, with Blacks card draw, Mana should not a problem at all, especially not for MBA.
Night, your deck is kinda nice, Aggro-Control, but you with the large cards that you might reveal with Confidant, you need either life gain, or, some sort of sac engine as a panic button.
You know, we could use Terramorphic Expanse, why? We're playing mono! Well, for one, this card allows us to technically play a 56 card deck. I think it's good because it thins out our decks, and generates greater consistency. Thoughts?
the phyrexian totem is a great card indeed, personally im gona collect them. The only build I see them going into is MBC, were it serves both as acceleration and a creaure slot (albeit dangerous). Its something id think about sticking into a deck together with some Sengir Nosfertu, Stonghold Overseer or Skeletal Vampire.
Which brings me to my next point. I see that no person has payed their respects to the Skeletal Vampire. Stronghold overseer is great and all, but i think the vampire is much more controling, overseer is for the pure control build with a finisher (aka kokusho) the vampire is for the more agresive control build (the one with plague slivers and all).
Also i see little respect to Stupor and Funeral Charm. Ive played Black for a long time, and both those cards haer proven powerful. Try them out im sure they wont dissapoint you.
Remeber one thing, Funeral charm actas as removal, pumper, combat trick, evasion on a stick (swampwalk) and INTANT SPEED DISCARD.... all for one mana; its something I see veyr few decks taking into consideration.
Stupor is the 2B discard spell we have needed for a while providing an excelent 2 for 1 card advantage and causing the oponent to discard things they dont wana discard (remeber one is random!)
ah also my first modification to my list.... switching the Crusader for the Withered Wretch. Why:
Because grave removal is necesary. Im very annoyed by Solar Flare and Firemane Control and some Debtor's Knell coming around and doing ugly ugly things. The wretch is both aggro and effective grave control. Also desert is annoying me and killing the crusader WAY TO MUCH
this also opens for a brand new sideboard option: deathmark. with all of the green and white creatures that are running around its a card that wont just go unoticed on most matchups!
Also this brings me into anoher discussion: Nether Traitor vs Plagued Rusakla in aggro build. Both have their pros and cons both are great cards which should be in. I cant decide since they are both stellar in the build and I cant pin the metagame just yet (rusalka is for a much more aggro oriented meta and spirit is for a more control oriented/heavy hitter meta)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Nether Traitor
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Withered Wretch
2 Sengir Nosferatu
4 Bad Moon
4 Funeral Charm
4 Small Pox
3 Stupor
4 Sudden Death
Lands
4 Vasuva
15 Swamps
3 Sudden Spoiling
3 Dodecapod
3 Persecute
4 Deathmark
2 Mindstab
Also the soul collector is deficient int he build. Go with the Skeletal Vampire if you want evasion or Helldozer if you want land control. Avatar of Woe not so much as its less impressive than either of the two options. also add the 2 totems as Lozodon points out as they are better than blooms providing both creature and accel at the same time (permanent accel also better than bloom) doont remove the blooms though as they do fit the deck
also the idea of terramorphic expanse is great, but only for the control build. the much faster agro build need the lands untapped to be good so its not necesary to thin out the deck so much. In any case also try out mishra's bauble for deck thinning
@Loxodon: the Nosferatu is great for two reasons:
First hes a 4/4 beatstick with evasion for only 3BB, very reasonable cost for such a creature
and second he has built in bullet evasion, if they are gona kill him well turn him inot a bat token. His ability allows him to poof and do sick things. I do remeber another 4/4 with a similar ability is a powerhouse so why wouldnt this be (Orzchov Ghost Council) specially when this one has evasion
I see your point about dealing with Wrath, I guess the persecutes could be moved to the sideboard for 3 x Sudden Death. I definitely would not play with the Faceless Devourer over the Faceless butcher as you will most likely end up removing one of your own creatures with his ability since it is a 'must' and not a 'may' ability. The C.C. and evasion are nice, but not at the cost of versatility. It's not like there are going to be a ton of shadow decks running around soon! I also disagree about having the 5 mana for the Mouths, I just don't think you can reliably get there. Maybe the deserts could be replaced by terramorphic expanse for added land thinning.
Sengir: Funeral Charm and Stupor are ok, but I can't see them being more powerful than mass discard like Persecute or effective spot removal. I just don't find that Stupor and the Charm do enough to warrant their inclusion in the deck compared with stuff like Soul Spike, Bad Moon, etc. which tie in directly with the Black Weenie strategy.
Edit: I am absolutely loving the new set's effects on Standard. Just look at all the neat decks that have suddenly popped up! The DFC forum is on fire!
I have to agree that Bad Moon is directed after the black weenie stragedy but Soul Spike not so much. I have my set of soul spikes and love them you are wrong to think that a weenie stragedy should keep 2 cards to alternate cast it or even worse... come to a mana point ot hard cast it. I agree on the bad moon if you look at my decklist I run 4, but the soul spike not so much as its oriented for a different time different place, in any case not for your deck since id use it qith Phyrexian arena and not the confidant.
Persecute is also an excelent card and allways will be, but it will never hit hands as fast as Stupor can hit it,if it goes though it sometimes fails (this happens in multicolor decks or when there as land/artifact hands) Persecute in a mono black control is thumbs up in my approach in an agro deck stupor is the better choice as it has a smaller casting cost and can be just as devastating. In any case Im still sideboarding them and possibly will move them maindeck if need be.
Also the funeral charm shouldnt be taken strictly as removal either its the flexibility aspect of the card that makes it shine. look at the lists of cards that can be killed directly with the charm at instant speed (BOP, Confidant, Wayferer, Lions, magus of the scroll, elves, rusalkas, Voidmage Prodigy, Soltary preist, Traitor Il Vec...). then take into consideration that its not a removal spell directly. It also serves as a pump spell literaly giving your guys +2 and having deal 4+ damage in 1 turn, also consider that it can serve as combat trick by making you guy bigger to take out a threat that blocked or make a huge threat unblockable in the mirror match or in any match that brings a swamp for that reason. Add to that that it serves as Intant speed discard possibly nullyfing a turn in the late game or throwing off you oponent EOT by making him discard something following with persecute or Stupor. All at 1 little mana and instant speed;you have the most flexible spell in standard.
While you can claimtheres cards that each individual thing better, you cant claim that any of those cards can do ALL of them at the same time in a reasonable way.
**flexibility is key to making a succesful deck** the more flexible the spell the more useful it is. Cruel Edict might be great but is it effective vs a creatureless deck. Funeral Charm can attack creatures (+2/-1 aspect), control (discard), combat trick (+2/-1), and utility evasion (swampwalk), pump spell for damage (+2/-1). Never a dead card.
This is the same reason I take SmallPox into the deck. It is another spell that serves as Land destruction, creature control, hand control and direct damage.
If you look again at my decklist it is the flexibility that I talk about that allows me to run "12" creature destruction spells (Small Pox, Sudden Death and Funeral Charm) while running "11" Discard Spells (SmallPox, Funeral Charm and Stupor) and "8" pump spells (Bad moon and Funeral Charm). Effectively giving me "30" so called spells at the cost of 19 card slots. This no counting the creatures that serve as discard (Hypnotic Specter) grave control (wretch) and card draw (Confidant)
EDIT: on the vesuva discussion im still testing the posibility of using it to deal with legendary lands. If that istnmuch of a worry then take ot as swamps intead or use terramorphic expanse
All I'm looking for is a decklist that's fun to play, and that consistantly wins. Unfortunately, unless we dip into another color for the strengths that the color provides, Mono-Black-Anything will probably not make it to tier 1. I mean, what do we do about counters? What do we do about removal for our creatures? And where the hell is our Mutilate?!?
Anywho, enough of my complaining. It seems we'll never have our Torment style MBC back, and there's not much we can do about it. Here's the best I can do with the cards given to me:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Mouth of Ronom
16 Snow-Covered Swamp
Big Mean Guys=6
2 Sengir Nosferatu
2 Stronghold Overseer
2 Helldozer
Kill Stuff=15
3 Cruel Edict
3 Consume Spirit
3 Sudden Death
3 Soul Spike
3 Last Gasp
3 Stupor
3 Persecute
2 Mindstab
Card Advantage=4
4 Phyrexian Arena
Wannabe Creatures/Accel=3
3 Phyrexian Totem
2 Mindstab
3 Deathmark
4 Withered Wretch
3 Tormod's Cypt
3 Smallpox
There ya go.
Akuma will wreck you.
As for my deck, it looks like this now:
20x Swamp
3x Quicksand(for the Jerk)
4x Phyrexian Arena(always need more cards)
3x Persecute(good against burn/control)
4x Phyrexian Totem(accel and win condition, whats not to love?)
4x Skeletal Vampire(going to the sideboard for Plague Sliver, Vamp for very heavy creature decks, allowing me to control combat better, Plague for good, early beats and a hoser for the random Sliver deck you will run into. I only have one right now, but will get a playset ASAP)
4x Funeral Charm(good versatility)
4x Smallpox(game winning card)
4x Cruel Edicit(for those pesky creatures)
4x Curse of the Cabal(good against Aggro or Control)
3x Sudden Death(for the Council or any sacing critter)
3x Sudden Spoiling(excellent combat trick)
Sideboard
3x Nightmare Void(excellent against Control/Burn)
3x Pyschoatic Episode(send the problem card to the bottom; I really, really like this card, it takes away an answer in hand or off the top, even better if they are Hellbent or to set up a perfect Persecute)
1x Persecute(see above)
4x Stupor(just a nice card)
4x some random card until I get Plague Sliver and move the Skeletal Vampire to the board.
The sideboard is to change the matchup problems, if you run into a creatureless or near creatureless deck, just sideout all the creature control options for the discard options. Now I know some people don't like Nightmare Void, but if you get your win condition on line(seven mana for Totem or a resolved Plague), then you can just keep Voiding them every turn to take away their answers and too see if you would get the most out of attacking that turn or just passing the turn.
Now about the Stronghold Overseer, I say nay. Don't get me wrong, I thourghly enjoy the Stonghold Overseer, but in some matchups, he just isn't a good choice. What if you are getting beatdown and need some blockers? The Overseer is not going to do that for you, as where the Vamp will at least buy you a turn, if not more. The Overseer is mana intensive just like the Vamp, but he does not bring extra bodies with him and cannot do a thing about a creature without shadow other then bringing their attack down, but if you tapped out to do this, then you are SOL. The Batman, is better against aggro and control, plain and simple, he provides more versatility. The Overseer just cannot do anything about combat if you are tapped out, as where the Batman at least has a fighting chance.
P.S. Has anyone playtested MBC/SuiBlack decks yet to see what matchups are good/bad?
—Szadek
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As explained the Small Pox and Cruel Edict can "hit" the paladin but they arent great options since white also has that ability to everwhelm us with other creatures so it might not even be able to deal with him.
Both desert and Quicksand can "deal" with him too but that also is unlike ly since white also has pup effects like Glorious Anthem.
So whats my solution: none :D, black will do what black has done all through time against white knight and the likes. BEAT WHITE AT HIS OWN GAME. one thing that is different between black and white decks is that black creatures tend to have evasion as well of power. Paladin en Vec can have pro black but cant block our Hypnotic Specter, Dauthi Slayers, Nether Traitor or Stromgald Crusader. Giving us more than enough options to attack and evade than they have on their side. They can try to race us but attacking with the paladin only gives a faster race since youll attack more without the paladin blocking. Without the Jitte in standard he shouldnt be too much of a problem aside from trying to stall the game but the game that is so if a paladin en vec tries to come into vistory just attack through him and pressure.
First off, Cruel Edict is good, but it has a fairly low chance of hitting that Simic Sky Swallower or other untargetable creature. Even in control decks, it's unlikely to see a lone SSS on the board. Many times there will be a BoP, Lanowar Elf, or Saproling Token from Vhitu Ghazi sitting there and blocking your Edict from working properly. I've seen one tron build that even ran Supply//Demand. Before TS, Edict was all we had, so we ran a playset and hoped for the best. But now, we have Sudden Spoiling. It is at least a staple sideboard against u/g builds and other decks that feature untargetable cards. I personally think it's main deckable, but I may be proven wrong on that. But it at least deserves a spot in the board. It may not be Mutilate, but is still a very good effect that cannot be countered under most circumstances (and let's face it, I doubt we'll ever get Mutilate back). At worst, it's a three mana, uncounterable, one-sided Darkness, which still isn't that bad, especially as a worst case scenario. At best, it stops that lethal attack and allows difficult creatures to be dealt with, and gives you that crucial extra turn to gain the edge in a damage race, or even pull off the win if you're able.
The current meta is very blue-centered, and post TS it will be worse with Cancel, Trickbind, Ancestral Vision, Psionic Blast, among others. I predict that the TS-RAV meta will be almost completely u/x, and all decent cards that cannot be countered (via Split Second, mainly) or that blue has a difficult time dealing with must be considered for decks. I was even considering one or two copies of Urza's Factory, but I will hold off on that unless it is necessary, since I like my Deserts better, and Factory is a bit slow. Phyrexian Totem is rather nice in an aggro deck against control, post-wrath. It is mainly a control card, but it could find a place in aggro. It and Nether Traitor provide an interesting semi-solution to Wrath.
Vesuva has no place in mono color decks. Terramorphic Expanse is good in control builds, but aggro can't afford the tempo loss. Scrying Sheets is a decent card in control, but I think it could be replaced by a land that works a bit more consistently. Scrying Sheets usually sees play in decks that have a bit more snow permanents than just their lands, and every black deck I've seen so far runs either Phyrexian Arena or Dark Confidant, so card advantage shouldn't that much of a problem. Perhaps Terramorphic Expanse, Mouth of Ronom, Quicksand, or Desert would work better. Even Urza's Factory might be a consideration. It is slow, but it has virtually no drawback, since in mono color producing colorless isn't that much of a problem. You only produce tokens when you have nothing else to do, which seems to be the case a lot against counter decks.
Curse of the Cabal is a card that I feel is overrated. It's not even the mana cost of 10 that puts me off, because I know it's mainly supposed to be suspended. But it seems like a card that would really need it's own deck to work properly. The problem with suspend in the TS meta (and I'm only predicting here) will be that your opponent will wait for it to come out of suspend and then counter it. Same problem I have with Mindstab. It's a nice idea to force your opponent to discard three cards for one mana, but chances are it'll either be countered upon being put on the stack, or it will be no longer relevant, such as in the case of aggro, which will probably have an empty or close to empty hand by that point. Suspend can be a house in a deck dedicated to the mechanic, but in a normal deck, I don't feel suspend is reliable enough. All right, I've to get to History class soon, although after this essay-length post I think I need a nap. Peace out :sleeping:.
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You would never hard cast the Curse of the Cabal. This card is to either keep a creature deck under control until you have the win condition set up or too mess with a control deck's mana base. Either way, it is a win/win scenerio.
About Quicksand, if it has no use in the current matchup, it is still a mana producing land, either way, might as well make it MD. I don't like Land in the sideboard. Another quick thought about Quicksand, if they attack with SSS or something else, cast Sudden Spoiling and use Quicksand to kill the threat.
To the above post: If they counter it, that opens the window for you too set up the kill that turn, WHICH IS DEVASTATING for a control deck. Do you let half your Permanents (Lands and maybe Signets' for the control player) go away, totally negating thier resource build up they worked so hard for, sac a permanent to put time counters on it, or do you counter it and hope for the best? There is nothing for the control player to like about that card being suspended AT ALL!
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Hmm, lets see
Sengir, i like your take on versatility, one of the reasons why i choose to put in 4 soul spikes in is because it allows you to throw out "Dead" cards for a really good effect. And You're definitely right about how to deal with en-vec, but that applies mostly to MBA, for MBC, i think you just need to have enough creature removal to make sure that it's the only one in play to be Edicted, or just run Stronghold Overseer!, why?? i'll tell you in just a bit.
Loxodon, Bloom comes down turn 3, and i don't know about you, but i like the versatility that it gives, i'll always have extra mana if i need it and it adds alot of consistency to most decks(my current build for MBC included). Try, i think you might like it.
SLS(Szadek!), glad to see someone who agrees with me on nightmare void. Also paladin en vec really isnt too much of a problem now, what i find to be the bigger problem is this Akroma, she's got a body too fat to mouth of ronom, and she has pro black, one could use edict or smallpox as with en-vec, but the same short comings apply. I think you should think more about Stronghold Overseer, because you don't ALWAYS have to pump it when you attack. If you see that you're faced with lots of enemy creatures, just save the mana to soften the hit, or totally nullify most of your opponent's creatures, because despite your argument of tapping out, you also have to understand that it's alot better to have creatures attack unblocked but deal little to no damage as compared to chump blocking and letting 1 or 2 through. Another plus of having the Overseer is it's ability to counter all creatures with pro black or untargettability. Think about it, you pay 6 mana to get it down, nvm if you're tapped out one turn, if the game has been in your control the entire time you're bound to be able to take ANYTHING he throws at you, after that, it's no sweat, just leave mana open for De-Pumping. If you need to regain you're life total, just use soul spike if you need more life.
Hammer, both cards are Must effects, but i only just discovered that Faceless Devourer targets only creatures with Shadow(my bad) >.<.
Tyler, maybe i am cheesy, but i still love mono-black, and i'm glad that you brought your imp familiar with you . Anyway, What do we do about counters you ask? Simple, discard them, Nightmare Void, Persecute and Mindstab are particularly brutal against control(this means creature-removal as well), Void because it can either draw out all the counters by dredging, or it can take out particular cards. Mindstab because, it actually allows you to overwhelm the counter player with discard, if he decides to counter that, turn 4 he may not have enough mana to deal with more discard after that. About our Mutilate? why have something much better, Sudden Spoiling, it's uncounterable, it's instant speed, it causes untargettables and pro black creatures to lose they're abilities, best of all, it only targets the Opponent. I say Mono-Black can make it to tier 1, why? because they gave us so many power cards and it's nature makes it a very strong colour. On your deck, everything looks really good, just take out the consume spirits, and max out your cruel edict, last gasp, Sudden Death. OR put in 3 Sudden Spoiling.
Enemywithin, suspend is actually very good, even in decks that aren't dedicated to it, sure you say he might counter the mindstab, but you forget, you're not tapped out for that turn, so that means, if he had countered your mindstab he may not have enough mana to counter 2 spells, or even the next one, this is why mindstab is a control killer, it allows you to overwhelm the enemy, i say it's definitely good, about Curse of the Cabal, i think it's not too shabby if you have multiple copies suspended.
Hmm, anyway, check this out, it's a Curse of the Cabal Deck:
3x Helldozer
3x Liege of the Pit
Spells
4x Curse of the Cabal
3x Mindstab
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Smallpox
4x Funeral Charm
4x Jhoira's Timebug
4x The Rack
4x Phyrexian Totem
Land
17x Swamp
3x Quicksand
4x Terramorphic Expanse
The game plan of this deck is to use mindstab to make the opponent want to get his good stuff out of his hand, this comboes nicely with The Rack. While waiting for mindstab to come out, play your racks, timebugs or search for multiple copies of whatever card you may need(if you're doing ok, look for a 2nd Curse of the Cabal) then, when mindstab comes out(turn 4) suspend your Curse, and watch as your opponent is confounded by what to do next, either he can play his cards and get hit by the rack and sac to curse, or, he can keep cards in his hand, in which case, your creatures start popping out and his options start to slim as you bring the curse closer with the time bug. Smallpox and Funeral Charm are both excellent spells, Smallpox because it reduces the opponent's permanent count and hand size even more. Funeral charm because of it's versatility. For Creatures I've chosen Helldozer for it's obvious power at destroying enemy lands and as a finisher, and Liege of the Pit because it can be an easy 7 damage on turn 4 or 5, then you can sac it to the curse, Phyrexian Totem is beautiful in just about any deck that runs black. i'm still waiting for MWS to come up with a Timespiral base, then i can actually make this deck and play test it. For now, tell me what you think.