I am certainly not a mono blue player, nor have I ever been a fan of counterspells, but I think a card like mana leak is exactly what this format desperately needs. some kind of threat where people cant just tempo their way to CoCo and cheat out extra threats, without worrying at all about you stopping them. or at least, give us a 2 cmc counter target creature spell. every other color has removal at 2 cmc, but blue only has bounce. I am an Izzet player at heart and like spell slinger type decks with midrangey creatures at the 4cmc to 6cmc level, which is kind of like control, but not totally. creatures right now are far to efficient compared to counters. who cares if you countered their tireless tracker on turn 3 (only if you played first) when they already have a thraben inspector and sylvan advocate out. you were better off just playing your own threat, or a defensive creature at that point. its already too late in the game to start countering.
There is Horribly Awry. But people think it is a terrible card. This card does stop just about every card in both Spirits and Bant Company decks. Add Dispel and all of the black removal. Is this even being tested to show that it is in fact bad?
Thank you for pointing out horribly awry. I forgot about that card, and no I don't think it's bad. It does exactly what you need it to at the point of the game when you need it. Good catch b
Thank you for pointing out horribly awry. I forgot about that card, and no I don't think it's bad. It does exactly what you need it to at the point of the game when you need it. Good catch b
You did catch that it only counters creature spells, right?
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
Thank you for pointing out horribly awry. I forgot about that card, and no I don't think it's bad. It does exactly what you need it to at the point of the game when you need it. Good catch b
You did catch that it only counters creature spells, right?
Yes. That was the point. He responded to me saying that we need cheaper counters for creatures, because let's face it, standard is currently a creature fest that "splashes" spells. And half those cards are planeswalkers or CoCo which are both just used for more creatures. So having an efficient way for blue to permanently deal with creatures for less than 3 mana is huge, seeing as how every other color does have permanent removal at 2cmc or less. Bounce is cute, but hard counters in this format are useless. Much better off with negates and horribly awry imho.
Any control deck right now would need eto be able to prevent coco of being cast - at 2 mana most. (So you actually come out on top).
I'm just coming back to the game, so maybe I'm missing something. CoCo costs 4 mana, so why does a hard counter to it need to cost 2 mana for your to come out ahead? Regardless, Negate is in standard, hard-counters CoCo, and costs 2 mana. Void Shatter and Broken Concentration hard counter any spell (including CoCo) and cost 3 mana.
That's actually really simple though, because the bant and GW decks really only play two spells: CoCo and dromoka's command, both instants. so save dispel for turn 4 onward and use negates on planewalkers, that way you can still cast cards only one turn behind on curve.
Once again, printing a decent counterspell now and then isn't 'bringing back draw go'. Nor is allowing players to interact on the stack so that you can play decks that don't contain 20% or more etb trigger dudes without being crippled. Nor would draw go be anywhere near as oppressive as MaRos fevered imaginings in an environment where 5 or 6 times more 2/1s (or 3/3s) for 1, 5 or 6 times more flash guys, and 20-30 times more etb triggers exist. We all know creatures are tremendously more powerful than they were back then.
It's kind of beside the point though. They could develop another concept for blue aside from terrible draw effects and an endless stream of 1 for 0 tap and bounce effects. Why does gather the pack at least cycle, and often net you a card, while contingency plan leaves you a card down? Why is coco an instant and pieces of the puzzle a sorcery? Why is coco even green? Why is flash more simic than blue? Hell, it's almost as white as it is blue. If blue can't have anything to do with putting guys into play, can't have destroy or exile effects, and can't have playable counterspells, what exactly can it do? If you want to have a spells matter guild in izzet, why not print some spells in both of those colors that actually matter?
It's actually amusing that a bounce effect that would have been considered powerful at one point is almost entirely unplayable today because it requires you to play a lot of islands.
If blue can't have anything to do with putting guys into play, can't have destroy or exile effects, and can't have playable counterspells, what exactly can it do?
This is my real question. I have no idea what wizards think blue decks should be doing in this standard format. Based on the last few Days of Future Future articles, wizards doesn't know what blue decks should be doing either. Do any of the players in future future league even like blue?
We live in an era where green does everything that matters. Answers are largely worse than the questions, and green has the best questions in the game. Whether it be through ramping into Giant Questions, or just playing 2 mana 4/5s and 4/4s with upside. Alternatively green can just play questions thatgetvalue even if they are answered.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
looking at the PT decks and the sculpting of a new highly diverse meta, I see some cards in U that will make it into a few decks.
The card some players laughed at (even in my LGS, when I said this card is actually really good)
Coax from the Blind Eternities, see Round 4 of Day 1 PT, Owen had his Emrakul's Obliterated, only for Andrew to scoop once his lands a Den protector that is going to regrow Coax. Insurance from Infinite Obliteration really helps the Eldrazi decks, it's a great tool against Bx decks the rely on exile effects.
Summary Dismissal, I purchased these last week, in hopes that it would find a home in my U/B decks. As a control player this was one of the cards I thought about MD to combat All of the relevant Eldrazi Cast triggers. It'll see play in SB and if Emrakul becomes as mainstream as I think she'll become expect to see a few MD in some builds.
G is the Key color in so many builds right now. It has the best early creatures and the majority have built in CA. It's not necessary to go into detail as the community knows these cards well, but this color is the lynch pin of standard.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Has WotC just given up on blue as only a splashable 1 or 2 sideboard type card or part of a multicolor creature? The thing is, more than any other color, blue is about spells, not creatures. The problem is WotC wants to ramp up creatures but not spells. Ok, but they haven't ramped up blue's creatures. So they've taken away blue's power and given them nothing in return.
The light at the end of the tunnel is Kaladesh tho, which seems a very izzet plane. They can make blue great again with a single good counter, a single good draw spell, and a single good creature. Mono blue may not exist but give it options and an U/X dekc is very likely. Basically if they could reprint Sphinx of the Final Word and have it cost 6, that would be a great start.
Barring that, what chance that we see blue be competitive again? Mana Leak may be fine for standard as the decks are much slower and often go into 6 or 7 mana unlike modern. To ease their conscience, they may do a functional mana leak reprint but make it UU, so it's not splashable.
Please note I am not a control player. And blue is my second least favorite color in Magic(behind green) but I love Grixis and U/B Faeries and think much like red(who punishes slow unfair/fair decks), blue is also a gate keeper in the format, punishing mid range decks which the current meta is about 80% of. Since both of these gatekeepers are pretty bad right now, you get board states that look like a 15 car pile up on Interstate 5.
Sorry guys, it would seem to be implied that they're actively working to prevent such an archetype from existing.
I really need to quit Standard, that's the realization I've come to. Their design philosophy the last few years has been terrible.
The game has been amazing from 1st Innistrad through the Khans. And in return to Zendikar blue was still a very powerful color in Jeskai Black, which was between mid-range and control based on how it was built.
Khans standard was also extremely popular. So I'd say that their design philosophy was great from Innistrad through Khans. These last two sets have been pretty meh overall, not just for control, although EM has worked out well enough in terms of power.
The truth is, G is the key to all Standard right now. That's how it is, the core of the Delirium decks are G. There are very few decks with a U core. If there are any, it's the Prison deck that is seeing no play as the B/X decks packing transgress hose those.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Circular Logic in an izzet madness deck...I love it.
Nope, we want blue to only occupy 2 negates in a sideboard and the forgotten color of bant just because queller and reflector mage are half blue. Seriously, what if Queller and Mage were 1UU instead. Maybe mono blue deck with actual decent creatures in it.
Noooo, blue isn't about creatures....but wizards, you want all magic to be about creatures....but not blue, they get bad card draw and overcosted counters...then what did you give us to compensate....umm...you can awaken a time walk: that's cool right!?!?!?!?!?
Circular Logic and a bounce that was actually cheaper to cast with madness than its hardcast would have made a madness control deck worthwhile. With ith baby Jace as a super-cheap loot outlet still in standard, it could be a little oppressive even. I hope that we'll get them in Kaladesh when the discard outlets are a little more expensive or conditional, but I'm not holding my breath.
I could see a replacement for Circular Logic that was 'instants and sorceries' in your GY instead of cards in your gy. That would fit with the direction they are trying to push Izzet (and blue in general) into.
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
I could see a replacement for Circular Logic that was 'instants and sorceries' in your GY instead of cards in your gy. That would fit with the direction they are trying to push Izzet (and blue in general) into.
That's the problem if WotC thinks that way. Circular Logic is a PERFECT card for right now. It's not OP at all. If you have to pay three, then it's cancel with a downside. It gives blue a good answer but it goes into a madness deck which should already have cards in the yard. Without fetches legal, it's basically instants and sorceries but there's not reason to limit it to that. If they would print halfway decent creatures for blue, it would be a fine spell to go with the current Thermo-Burn.
That's the problem if WotC thinks that way. Circular Logic is a PERFECT card for right now. It's not OP at all. If you have to pay three, then it's cancel with a downside.
Cancel is too good for the current format, so no - it's also more splashable than Cancel as Cancel has a double-blue. Also it's Cancel with an upside - it can be cast for U. I think all the madness stuff in blue actually costs MORE than the base CMC - because blue is the card of looting effects (currently just baby jace)
Limiting it to sorceries and instants would also prevent it from making a splash in CoCo type decks and the creature-heavy spirits decks, which do NOT need the help.
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That's the problem if WotC thinks that way. Circular Logic is a PERFECT card for right now. It's not OP at all. If you have to pay three, then it's cancel with a downside.
Cancel is too good for the current format, so no - it's also more splashable than Cancel as Cancel has a double-blue. Also it's Cancel with an upside - it can be cast for U. I think all the madness stuff in blue actually costs MORE than the base CMC - because blue is the card of looting effects (currently just baby jace)
Limiting it to sorceries and instants would also prevent it from making a splash in CoCo type decks and the creature-heavy spirits decks, which do NOT need the help.
I agree with 1 point. That's Circular Logic is splashable. A functional reprint at 1UU would be fine. And no, cancel is not too powerful right now. Jeez, what do you want counterspells to cost 4 mana....do you secretly work for WotC.
Basically blue is bad right now(same with red) because WotC took away their classic identity and gave them nothing to supplement it. Ok, they want counterspells to be bad. Fine. Then give blue great card draw, or bounce effects. Would Vapor Snag really be OP right now? I guess the only issue you could find with it is it pairs well with Bant Coco, which we don't want to do.
I would love WotC to print cards that punish 3+ color decks. Like "UU Return target non land permanent to it's owners hands. If the target player's lands can produce more than 2 colors of mana, return 2 non land permanents." Basically, just print good "good stuff" hate cards.
Circular logic would have been overpowered with baby Jace; with jace (or reckless scholar) out, you're getting Bone to Ash for U, and that's too much. If the madness cost of Broken Concentration was UU, blue would have been able to construct counterspell as a combo effect just Red can construct lightning bolt from fiery temper. Your opponent also has a way to try and combat that by going after your looter/rummager. In fact, UR Visions leverages this effect. I could even see it being useful for 2U or 1UU in a slower madness deck like a control-based version of Izzet Machinegun; at that point, it's Bone to Ash for a decent discount. At a 3U madness cost, though, it's just garbage.
I have to disagree. CL I think would be fine in this standard. You already have a 2 mana hard counterspell if you run a dragon deck(silumgar's scorn) and it didn't break standard. Remember CL is not a hard but a soft counter. It gets better the later the game goes but in the early game, it can be quite weak. Also, without Jace on the field, it gets much worse. If Fiery Temper and Alms of the Vein(lightning helix-ish for 1 mana) weren't OP with baby Jace, I don't think CL would be either.
The closest place it would approach OP is a delirium/zombie deck. Delirium doesn't want Jace and CL would make Zombies Tier 1 but not Tier 0. Just my opinion.
U has been perfectly powerful in many of the recent Standard formats, actually. It's true that it's currently the weaker of the colors, but it's just a normal pendulum swing.
Thank you for pointing out horribly awry. I forgot about that card, and no I don't think it's bad. It does exactly what you need it to at the point of the game when you need it. Good catch b
You did catch that it only counters creature spells, right?
Yes. That was the point. He responded to me saying that we need cheaper counters for creatures, because let's face it, standard is currently a creature fest that "splashes" spells. And half those cards are planeswalkers or CoCo which are both just used for more creatures. So having an efficient way for blue to permanently deal with creatures for less than 3 mana is huge, seeing as how every other color does have permanent removal at 2cmc or less. Bounce is cute, but hard counters in this format are useless. Much better off with negates and horribly awry imho.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I'm just coming back to the game, so maybe I'm missing something. CoCo costs 4 mana, so why does a hard counter to it need to cost 2 mana for your to come out ahead? Regardless, Negate is in standard, hard-counters CoCo, and costs 2 mana. Void Shatter and Broken Concentration hard counter any spell (including CoCo) and cost 3 mana.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Sorry guys, it would seem to be implied that they're actively working to prevent such an archetype from existing.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
It's kind of beside the point though. They could develop another concept for blue aside from terrible draw effects and an endless stream of 1 for 0 tap and bounce effects. Why does gather the pack at least cycle, and often net you a card, while contingency plan leaves you a card down? Why is coco an instant and pieces of the puzzle a sorcery? Why is coco even green? Why is flash more simic than blue? Hell, it's almost as white as it is blue. If blue can't have anything to do with putting guys into play, can't have destroy or exile effects, and can't have playable counterspells, what exactly can it do? If you want to have a spells matter guild in izzet, why not print some spells in both of those colors that actually matter?
It's actually amusing that a bounce effect that would have been considered powerful at one point is almost entirely unplayable today because it requires you to play a lot of islands.
I really need to quit Standard, that's the realization I've come to. Their design philosophy the last few years has been terrible.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
This is my real question. I have no idea what wizards think blue decks should be doing in this standard format. Based on the last few Days of Future Future articles, wizards doesn't know what blue decks should be doing either. Do any of the players in future future league even like blue?
We live in an era where green does everything that matters. Answers are largely worse than the questions, and green has the best questions in the game. Whether it be through ramping into Giant Questions, or just playing 2 mana 4/5s and 4/4s with upside. Alternatively green can just play questions that get value even if they are answered.
- Manite
The card some players laughed at (even in my LGS, when I said this card is actually really good)
Coax from the Blind Eternities, see Round 4 of Day 1 PT, Owen had his Emrakul's Obliterated, only for Andrew to scoop once his lands a Den protector that is going to regrow Coax. Insurance from Infinite Obliteration really helps the Eldrazi decks, it's a great tool against Bx decks the rely on exile effects.
Summary Dismissal, I purchased these last week, in hopes that it would find a home in my U/B decks. As a control player this was one of the cards I thought about MD to combat All of the relevant Eldrazi Cast triggers. It'll see play in SB and if Emrakul becomes as mainstream as I think she'll become expect to see a few MD in some builds.
G is the Key color in so many builds right now. It has the best early creatures and the majority have built in CA. It's not necessary to go into detail as the community knows these cards well, but this color is the lynch pin of standard.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
The light at the end of the tunnel is Kaladesh tho, which seems a very izzet plane. They can make blue great again with a single good counter, a single good draw spell, and a single good creature. Mono blue may not exist but give it options and an U/X dekc is very likely. Basically if they could reprint Sphinx of the Final Word and have it cost 6, that would be a great start.
Barring that, what chance that we see blue be competitive again? Mana Leak may be fine for standard as the decks are much slower and often go into 6 or 7 mana unlike modern. To ease their conscience, they may do a functional mana leak reprint but make it UU, so it's not splashable.
Please note I am not a control player. And blue is my second least favorite color in Magic(behind green) but I love Grixis and U/B Faeries and think much like red(who punishes slow unfair/fair decks), blue is also a gate keeper in the format, punishing mid range decks which the current meta is about 80% of. Since both of these gatekeepers are pretty bad right now, you get board states that look like a 15 car pile up on Interstate 5.
The game has been amazing from 1st Innistrad through the Khans. And in return to Zendikar blue was still a very powerful color in Jeskai Black, which was between mid-range and control based on how it was built.
Khans standard was also extremely popular. So I'd say that their design philosophy was great from Innistrad through Khans. These last two sets have been pretty meh overall, not just for control, although EM has worked out well enough in terms of power.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Nope, we want blue to only occupy 2 negates in a sideboard and the forgotten color of bant just because queller and reflector mage are half blue. Seriously, what if Queller and Mage were 1UU instead. Maybe mono blue deck with actual decent creatures in it.
Noooo, blue isn't about creatures....but wizards, you want all magic to be about creatures....but not blue, they get bad card draw and overcosted counters...then what did you give us to compensate....umm...you can awaken a time walk: that's cool right!?!?!?!?!?
That's the problem if WotC thinks that way. Circular Logic is a PERFECT card for right now. It's not OP at all. If you have to pay three, then it's cancel with a downside. It gives blue a good answer but it goes into a madness deck which should already have cards in the yard. Without fetches legal, it's basically instants and sorceries but there's not reason to limit it to that. If they would print halfway decent creatures for blue, it would be a fine spell to go with the current Thermo-Burn.
Cancel is too good for the current format, so no - it's also more splashable than Cancel as Cancel has a double-blue. Also it's Cancel with an upside - it can be cast for U. I think all the madness stuff in blue actually costs MORE than the base CMC - because blue is the card of looting effects (currently just baby jace)
Limiting it to sorceries and instants would also prevent it from making a splash in CoCo type decks and the creature-heavy spirits decks, which do NOT need the help.
I agree with 1 point. That's Circular Logic is splashable. A functional reprint at 1UU would be fine. And no, cancel is not too powerful right now. Jeez, what do you want counterspells to cost 4 mana....do you secretly work for WotC.
Basically blue is bad right now(same with red) because WotC took away their classic identity and gave them nothing to supplement it. Ok, they want counterspells to be bad. Fine. Then give blue great card draw, or bounce effects. Would Vapor Snag really be OP right now? I guess the only issue you could find with it is it pairs well with Bant Coco, which we don't want to do.
I would love WotC to print cards that punish 3+ color decks. Like "UU Return target non land permanent to it's owners hands. If the target player's lands can produce more than 2 colors of mana, return 2 non land permanents." Basically, just print good "good stuff" hate cards.
The closest place it would approach OP is a delirium/zombie deck. Delirium doesn't want Jace and CL would make Zombies Tier 1 but not Tier 0. Just my opinion.