Description: The Geralf's Zombies deck is a synergistic deck that utilizes the discard ability of zombies and other cards to get more zombies into the grave. Along with this the deck uses the Madness mechanic to get extra benefit from the discard costs. This along with the zombies that can return from the grave gives the deck more bang for its discard. The deck also has a great resiliency against removal as most of our creatures can come back from the grave, sometimes with a Prized army. It is very fun to play, just got to pay attention to the graveyard. Felt good though because the deck does make you think and have to plan for moves in advance. (e.g. Discard now for madness or hold and bring in a zombie at the end of the turn.) Either way enjoy and please don't hesitate to critique and comment. Thank you for you time.
MATCH UPS:
Bant Flash(3-2):
It was kind of frustrating, but my graveyard shenanigans started over whelming the board with each zombie coming back with a Prized Amalgam. I also found out that the deck can do quite well with a Call the Bloodline and discarding a Gisa's Bidding to create a token army which was super neat to find another out for the deck. Either way the wave of Vampire tokens or the 3 powerfor2CMC got there pretty quick. The games I lost were just mistakes on my part. But I did learn to always go for the Skaab when you have Amalgam in hand and in the grave.
MATCH UPS:
Bant Company ( 1-0 )
He played company on my turn returning my Stitchwing Skaab to my hand with Reflector Mage, but during his turn I just pitched it with Catalog. I chuckled as I played it from the grave while Unsummoning a Sylvan Advocate and digging deeper. I eventually got a Thing in the Ice to stick and played catalog into nagging thoughts. Then countered his company and Unsubstantiate to flip my thing in the ice returning his whole board while I had two zombies and Awoken Horror on my side. One last counter to get rid of a Spell Queller and Flunged in for game. Final score: (16 - 0)
I played a deck similar to this one. He didn't bother with madness spells though. Just overwhelming with creatures that come back. I'm not sure you need Call of the Bloodlines though. You won't be hurting for ways to discard, you're more likely to be hurting for cards to discard. I'd recommend adding in some card draw. Read the Bones, Mystic Meditation, Damnable Pact or something. You want to be able to get cards back in your hand so you can keep fueling your discard to reanimate engine. Steed and Skaab cost 2 cards, Masterpiece costs 3. You don't want to be in the situation where you have to wait 2 or 3 turns to get something back because you have no creatures in play and no cards in hand.
I wanted to go with madness cards, they just weren't that good. I even looked into maybe adding red for more madness and more discard early. Those weren't that good either.
You know its weird because I do run into the problem of running out of discard outlets. Thats why I pushed for Catalog and more Call the Bloodline. I was also thinking about Mindwrack Demon to just dump the zombies into the grave.
I just don't think I can get behind Call the Bloodline. It's a turn 3 discard, and then only leaves me 2 mana to reanimate. I feel that significantly effects the speed of the deck. Right now, I'm using Salvage Drone to be part of my turn 1/turn 2 self discard. It'll take some play testing to see if that's where I want to be. I can possibly see myself going to Sinister Concoction or just give up the idea of having a 1 drop and go full playsets of Heir of Falkenrath and Pale Rider of Trostad. Otherwise, between the 9 creatures, 10 discard zombies, and 6 Catalogs, there should be plenty of ways to get cards into the GY.
Mindwrack Demon definitely won't work for me. I only have 3 card types in my list lol.
I don't know how you feel about it, but I might consider splashing red, or turning this into a more heavily U/R deck splashing black. I tried it at the beginning of the format, but I couldn't get it to work and I moved on to another project. But I think there was something there that I just didn't explore enough. The advantage of adding red is that you considerably speed up the deck with more discard outlets, good card draw, and more things to do early. The significant red cards I played were 4x Insolent Neonate, 4x Fevered Visions, 4x Tormenting Voice, and 4x Fiery Temper. The thing I liked about the deck was that it had the most explosive potential start in the format, with turn 1 Insolent Neonate, turn 2 sac it discarding Stitchwing Skaab, bring back Stitchwing Skaab discarding 2x Prized Amalgam, go to end step. The thing I didn't like was that it felt like there weren't enough enablers for Prized Amalgam. I did not try Ghoulsteed in my list though, so that might be an improvement. Geralf's Masterpiece was solid as a 2-of and made the deck really good against everything besides Declaration in Stone.
I did consider adding red and maybe getting into a more madness-y kinda build. The madness cards just felt underwhelming. I like Insolent Neonate for the deck, but I'm not sure that alone is worth adding red. Salvage Drone ALMOST approximates that effect, but it falls short. I'm thinking of switching him to Sinister Concoction to make a more reliable discard outlet and a decent tempo disrupter. I also like Fiery Temper, but I often find I want actual removal in games when I play it. There are just too many good creatures who just don't get killed by Fiery Temper that I really need to get past.
The other cards, they really don't interest me. The way I hope to play this deck is getting a zombie in the GY during turns 1 and 2 (3 at the latest), and then EOT/instant shenanigans from then on. Enchantments don't really work into that vision. As for Tormenting Voice, I'm willing to pay an extra mana for the blue instant version, Catalog. Especially since it gives me the decision to disrupt if that would be more prudent.
I considered Just the Wind, but I think Compelling Deterrence is probably a better card choice (and is a sideboard card I'm likely to have). Just because there are non-creature threats out there that I might need to bounce.
RealOG47 - After more play testing and more messing around, I actually ended up doing exactly what you suggested. Turning to a heavier UR build and splashing in black for just a couple of zombies. I did go into Fevered Visions despite my earlier anti-enchantment stance. It makes sure I can keep feeding cards to my zombies. I didn't add in Tormenting Voice or any madness cards. The deck still plays the same though. Discard a zombie, then play like a flash deck.
I'm pretty happy with where this deck is right now. It's a turn faster now that red was added. I typically only ever need black to revive Ghoulsteed, so it's not imperative that I hit it until turn 3 at the earliest. In most tests, it hasn't been a problem. The times I haven't hit it, I've been able to revive the other 2 until black came online. Prized Amalgam almost never gets cast. Just discarded and reanimated.
Also found Sin Prodder feels at home with this deck since they will usually allow us card advantage so they don't take 4 off of Stitchwing Skaab.
The grixis build does feel more consistent to me, rounding a lot of the numbers up to 4 and 3 of's allows the discard outlet and fuel to be more on time and builds the board quickly.
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Do you have trouble getting your discard-to-return zombies online? I have 11 discard sources and 11 discard-to-return zombies in my list (i've updated a little), and even then i sometimes have none of either when i draw up a hand.
I also picked Fevered Visions over Tormenting Voice because it draws cards. Tormenting Voices doesn't. You have to cast a card and discard a card to get 2 cards in hand, so your hand goes -2 cards + 2 cards. That's the same number of cards in hand, so it doesn't feed cards to the hand that can be used to revive zombies quicker.
No judgement on your deck, but it seems like it's a RB midrange deck with zombies grafted on. I haven't played it, so I don't know if it's good or bad or something else entirely. It's definitely interesting. Have any test results?
The discard to Zombie/Madness ratio feels pretty on par as there are 15 discard outlets to 11 zombies and 6 madness. This was an issue I was severely having with the Fevered Visions being in the deck. It sure does draw you a lot of card, but my problem isn't drawing cards it was having enough outlets over the amount of zombies. Cause I would just keep drawing zombies with flipped Heirs. But with Tormenting Voice I was able to pitch off a zombie and draw two card off the top then pitch those two to bring back a zombie like Skaab.
Also the reason for the major Red influence is because I really love Sin Prodder in this deck because majority of the creatures cost a lot of mana and will likely go to the hand for discard fuel. He is also a good body for the CMC. And Bloodmad Vampire is just a really good madness creature that every opponent I've gone against has to deal with her because of her size and growth ability.
Ghoulsteed is tittering on being removed for more Geralf's Masterpiece because of not having any ability and his cost is a a bit high for the body.
The only thing I really hate is that this deck is really fun to play, but the fact that it just feels like it needs more oomph from Eldritch Moon is killing me inside. Either way the games I've played with the Grixis Build went fairly well and feels competitive enough. But people I've tested against are playing some wild brews so I'm trying to get the cards together and go to my LGS to see how it holds up.
@marckarlock I was thinking maybe Pore Over the Pages? Since it untaps three lands and draws a good bit along with discarding a card, because then you could use those lands untapped to play the discard or a zombie from the grave. It also prevent you from dumping cards that you may need for fuel to bring back a zombie.
Timeos - I think if you committed more to the discard-to-revive zombies, you would find you have plenty of discard outlets. I currently play 11 of those guys, 4 Skaabs, 4 Horsies, 3 Masterpieces. I find as the game goes on, there's no shortage of ways to discard but definitely a shortage of cards in hand to bring back everything from the GY. Your current list only has 7 of those guys and 4 Amalgams. Not only does that give you far fewer discard sources, but it gives far fewer zombies that revive to get back your Amalgams. I mean, Tormented Voice definitely does discard a card, but the zombies discard 2 or 3 at a time. It's very easy to make sure more zombies get in the GY that way.
I said earlier in the thread that I'm not sold on madness cards. I'm still not. Almost all are underwhelming. I liked Asylum Visitor and I somewhat like Broken Concentration, but that's it. The rest seem to fall well short of what I feel the deck needs. For example, Fiery Temper seems great for 1 mana. The problem is it doesn't kill anything bigger than 3 toughness. What about Avacyn? What about a Thalia's Lieutenant beyond the 4th turn? Copy/Paste for every other madness card.
I've also said earlier that instants are better than sorceries for this deck because the zombies can come back EOT. We should definitely look at saving our mana for our opponent's turns and making great tempo plays. I personally don't like the "discard 1, draw 2" cards, and that's fine. Totally a personal preference, but if you like them, definitely take Catalog and Artificer's Epiphany instead. With the instants you can decide whether you want to draw or spot kill or bring back a zombie. If you use Tormented Voice, you make your decision while limiting your ability to respond.
Marc, you'll find the deck won't curve that way, even if you manage to draw all of those cards early. The reason is, you run out of cards in hand. So say you draw an amazing hand:
Turn 1: 7 cards in hand. Play a land, Play Neonate. Pass turn 5 cards in hand.
Turn 2: Draw a card 6 cards in hand. Play a land, End of Opp's turn, sac Neonate discarding Skaab, draw a card. Return skaab by discarding 2 (Amalgam and Horse). Skaab and Amalgam are in play. Cards in hand 3.
Turn 3: Draw a card, 4 cards in hand. Play a land. EOT Return horse, discarding 2 (amalgam and masterpiece), skaab, horse and 2 amalgams in play. 1 card in hand.
Turn 4: Draw a card 2 cards in hand, play a land. End turn with 1 card in hand.
Don't get me wrong. This start is an incredibly explosive. You have 13 damage on the board ready to attack (plus the 6 damage you had on the board the turn before). However, you can see you run out of cards before you can curve into Geralf's.
Finally, for card drawing, I like Fevered Visions the best. With 11 self revive zombies, I never hurt for discarding past the first one and they need a ton of fuel to keep going. Fevered provides extra cards every turn it's in play. Tons of value. Beyond fueling the Zombies, it gives great pressure all by itself. I love it!
Turn 1: 7 cards in hand. Play a land, Play Neonate. Pass turn 5 cards in hand.
Turn 2: Draw a card 6 cards in hand. Play a land, End of Opp's turn, sac Neonate discarding Skaab, draw a card. Return skaab by discarding 2 (Amalgam and Horse). Skaab and Amalgam are in play. Cards in hand 3.
Turn 3: Draw a card, 4 cards in hand. Play a land. EOT Return horse, discarding 2 (amalgam and masterpiece), skaab, horse and 2 amalgams in play. 1 card in hand.
Turn 4: Turn for draw a card 2 cards in hand, play a land. End turn with 1 card in hand.
Don't get me wrong. This start is an incredibly explosive. You have 13 damage on the board ready to attack (plus the 6 damage you had on the board the turn before). However, you can see you run out of cards before you can curve into Geralf's.
Finally, for card drawing, I like Fevered Visions the best. With 11 self revive zombies, I never hurt for discarding past the first one and they need a ton of fuel to keep going. Fevered provides extra cards every turn it's in play. Tons of value. Beyond fueling the Zombies, it gives great pressure all by itself. I love it!
Sorry to add on, but this scenario illustrates just how badly the deck needs cards that get more cards in hand, not just dig into the deck. If we take that start and replace it with card drawing on turn 4, you can see how the point is illustrated.
Tormenting Voice/Catalog
Turn 4: Draw a card, 2 cards in hand. Play a land, can't play Tormenting Voice because it's the only card in hand. Can play Catalog, but you're still just left with 1 card in hand. It will be 2 more turns before you can revive Geralf's from GY provided you don't play any lands/cards.
Fevered Visions
Turn 4: Draw a card, 2 cards in hand. Play a land, play Fevered Visions. 0 cards in hand. Fevered likely deals 2 to your opponent. You draw 4 cards over the next 2 turns allowing you to play a card or land and put yourself in even better position when you revive Geralf's. It will help you recover faster after opponents sweep. It lets you keep drawing every turn without more mana expenditure.
I decided to try green with the UB. Green gives elemental bond and vessel of nascency. Elemental bond is the draw engine for the deck. This is the deck I'm trying out now.
The side deck is just a rough idea. I played a rougher version at a free standard and went 2-2 with it. Once the engine got going it just kept churning out zombies. My biggest problem was a lack of discard and removal early, I wasn't playing sinister concoction yet.
@Ronnie328: Every time I ran the version with Fevered Visions the opponent would immediately start dumping their hand like it was on fire and be able to put down more pressure along with drawing into their Declaration in Stone or some other exile removal. Visions just gives the opponent too much advantage versus this deck. If your up against aggro your just killing yourself faster since this deck is a midrange type of deck. Sure it can swing evasively big by turn 3 but that is with a good setup, but most of the time we are hitting consistently big around turn 4-6. Which is Avacyn, Company, or Always Watching time for the opponent and I rather not give them the fuel to find those cards quicker or the lands to play those cards. This Elemental Bond idea might actually be the mid-ground between this debate. Because most of our guy are 3 or greater power and green does have some good cards for drawing and siding.
@stewieG21: That is a pretty tight deck I like that engine as well. Why not try out Heir of Falkenrath for a little extra discard outlet? Oh oh Pale Rider of Trostad would work great since he is power 3 triggering Bond and allowing you to discard. Actually I really like that play as a turn 4 play to play Stitchwing Skaab after Pale Rider drawing two card off of Bond. Hm neat idea I wouldn't mind playing around with it. Also gives you the room to add in Clip Wings in side board for Avacyn and Dragons.
Oh man you can play The Gitrog Monster if you play with green. Discard two lands to Skaab draw two for monster.
@Timeos - That's why I play counterspells . I understand what you're saying about aggro decks though. I normally side out a couple of fevered and a couple of Broken Concentration for Radiant Flames against weenie aggro. That hand example was just an example for Marc. I actually play the deck in more of a tempo way. It's rare that I play my hand out like that early (unless I got that hand, then I would lol).
@stewie: I don't like the adding green idea very much. You don't have much going on early, but I see you have Languish to help stabilize. It's a good plan except Vessel of Nascency is just as likely to throw it in the GY where you can't use it. Oath of Jace would do a very similar thing except you'd be able to keep your Languish.
I also have to ask about a couple of creatures. Risen Executioner. How often are you able to revive it? If I had to guess, you would only be able to revive it on turns 4-6 and only if you had 0-2 other creatures in the GY. After that, it's just to expensive. Wouldn't Geralf's Masterpiece be better? You'd have to have 5 to 7 zombies on the board for Risen Executioner to give you more damage on the board. For that to happen you'd have to draw through roughly a quarter of your deck, which means turn 8 or 9. That's a long game. Most decks finish the game before you'd get that far.
Finally, Despoiler of Souls. Let me be unequivical. Despoiler is an amazing creature. One of the best in Standard. He's terrible in a they come back zombies deck. Exactly which creatures are you willing to exile? I can see getting rid of Risen Executioner, maybe the lone Moondrakes, but that's it. Anything else and you're throwing away more attack power than you're getting back. If you throw away 2 of any Skaab, Steed or Amalgam you're tossing away 6-7 damage that could come back for 3.
I go back and forth between using a hard counter like Broken Concentration and a soft counter like Spell Shrivel. Honestly, the only reason I picked Broken Concentration is because it's got madness. That only matters turns 6-9+ though. I can technically pitch it and counter something while bringing a zombie back. As much as I'd like to consistently kill in the first 5 turns, it's unlikely in this deck. This is more of a midrange/tempo deck. The game is going to past 5 turns. Declaration in Stone is unlikely to be countered by Spell Shrivel after turn 6.
I took Destroyer's advice and added 4 pale riders and they have been great. The extra discard is great at getting the ball rolling as well as a body early. I am loving the sinister concoction as removal. I ended up going with a 3rd languish as well. I have stuck with the despoilers. I know the thought of having to remove one of the zombies is hard but they actually get the engine going when you end up in top deck mode. There have been a few games where I have the steed and stitchwing in the grave with an elemental bond out but no cards in the hand. Having a despoiler helps in the situation to get that initial draw and then another if I have a prized in the grave as well. I ended taking out the executioners all together. The initial reason for the despoilers was to control the grave for the executioners, but they have proven to be good for the return from the grave needing no cards in hand. After tweaking the list I have come to this.
Just remember that it's normally a tempo deck, so play it that way. The mana is a little shakey because I'm not putting a lot of money into my hobby that I've just come back to this season. If you have the lands, or are more willing to put money into lands rotating out soon, then you can make it much more stable.
The only big change I made to the original list was adding in 4 Heirs and shaving elsewhere.
I took Destroyer's advice and added 4 pale riders and they have been great. The extra discard is great at getting the ball rolling as well as a body early. I am loving the sinister concoction as removal. I ended up going with a 3rd languish as well. I have stuck with the despoilers. I know the thought of having to remove one of the zombies is hard but they actually get the engine going when you end up in top deck mode. There have been a few games where I have the steed and stitchwing in the grave with an elemental bond out but no cards in the hand. Having a despoiler helps in the situation to get that initial draw and then another if I have a prized in the grave as well. I ended taking out the executioners all together. The initial reason for the despoilers was to control the grave for the executioners, but they have proven to be good for the return from the grave needing no cards in hand. After tweaking the list I have come to this.
I think this is the main reason I shy away from green in these decks. Being in the situation where you have no cards in hand and no way to get your cards there faster. If you're in the situation where you have a Skaab and a Z-horse in the GY and Bond in play, having no cards in hand won't help you even though that Bond is sitting right there. If you add a Despoiler to that situation, yes you get a creature to come in and draw a card, but you have to exile 7 power to get back 3. The thing that makes they-come-back decks effective is that you overwhelm/outlast your opponents' removal and/or blockers. If you're exiling your own revivers, then you're doing your opponent's job for them.
I still dislike Vessel of Nascency compared to Oath of Jace. Granted, Vessel goes 1 card deeper, but that's it's only advantage. Oath let's you keep non-permanents + it discards from the hand. I can draw up 3 brand new cards, and then toss 2 zombies. I don't have to worry about losing Languish or any of the non-permanents I've sided in.
Stewie, do you have any problems getting zombies in the GY to get going? I know that I have 11 discard-to-revive zombies and 11 ways to get them in the GY early, and sometimes I manage to draw none of them until 5+ turns. You're running 8 zombies and 7 ways to get them in the GY. Seems like you'd run into that problem even more than I do.
It's not as bad now that I'm running the pale riders. Those have helped the deck a lot. All I need is that first discard then that kind of snowballs the rest into the grave. I'm still trying to find another discard for turns 1-2.
The only reason I'm playing the vessel over the oath of jace is the curve. The three drop slot is so full already, plus there are a lot of werewolfs being played and I need something to keep them from flipping.
I agree that there are times having to remove a zombie to bring back a despoiler seems bad but if it draws you 2-3 cards and adds 6-9 power it is a fair trade.
I'm hoping this deck gets some help from the new set. It needs another turn 1 or 2 play.
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Description: The Geralf's Zombies deck is a synergistic deck that utilizes the discard ability of zombies and other cards to get more zombies into the grave. Along with this the deck uses the Madness mechanic to get extra benefit from the discard costs. This along with the zombies that can return from the grave gives the deck more bang for its discard. The deck also has a great resiliency against removal as most of our creatures can come back from the grave, sometimes with a Prized army. It is very fun to play, just got to pay attention to the graveyard. Felt good though because the deck does make you think and have to plan for moves in advance. (e.g. Discard now for madness or hold and bring in a zombie at the end of the turn.) Either way enjoy and please don't hesitate to critique and comment. Thank you for you time.
DECKLISTS:
3x Asylum Visitor
2x Geralf's Masterpiece
3x Ghoulsteed
4x Heir of Falkenrath
4x Pale Rider of Trostad
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Stitchwing Skaab
Instant (2)
2x Compelling Deterrence
Enchantment (2)
2x Call the Bloodline
Land (24)
4x Choked Estuary
1x Evolving Wilds
2x Island
4x Sunken Hollow
13x Swamp
4x Alms of the Vein
2x Gisa's Bidding
2x Murderous Compulsion
3x Transgress the Mind
3x Languish
3x Negate
2x Infinite Obliteration
2x Grasp of Darkness
2x Void Shatter
Maybeboard (19)
4x Despoiler of Souls
3x Nagging Thoughts
4x Read the Bones
4x Relentless Dead
2x Risen Executioner
2x Vampiric Rites
MATCH UPS:
Bant Flash(3-2):
It was kind of frustrating, but my graveyard shenanigans started over whelming the board with each zombie coming back with a Prized Amalgam. I also found out that the deck can do quite well with a Call the Bloodline and discarding a Gisa's Bidding to create a token army which was super neat to find another out for the deck. Either way the wave of Vampire tokens or the 3 power for 2CMC got there pretty quick. The games I lost were just mistakes on my part. But I did learn to always go for the Skaab when you have Amalgam in hand and in the grave.
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Diregraf Colossus
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Relentless Dead
4x Risen Executioner
2x Cemetery Recruitment
4x Compelling Deterrence
4x Dark Salvation
2x Turn Aside
Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana, Heretical Healer
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
4x Island
4x Sunken Hollow
4x Choked Estuary
2x Drownyard Temple
2x Westvale Abbey
3x Advanced Stitchwing
4x Haunted Dead
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Stitchwing Skaab
4x Foreboding Ruins
5x Island
4x Mountain
4x Shivan Reef
4x Sunken Hollow
1x Swamp
2x Wandering Fumarole
3x Fiery Temper
3x Lightning Axe
3x Artificer's Epiphany
Sorcery (8)
4x Tormenting Voice
4x Take Inventory
MATCH UPS:
None Recorded
3 Advanced Stitchwing
2 Elder Deep-Fiend
2 Geralf's Masterpiece
3 Insolent Neonate
3 Prized Amalgam
2 Ravenous Bloodseeker
4 Stitchwing Skaab
2 Kozilek's Return
4 Take Inventory
Instants 9
4 Broken Concentration
3 Lightning Axe
2 Negate
Enchantments 3
3 Fevered Visions
2 Blighted Cataract
4 Choked Estuary
2 Foreboding Ruins
7 Island
4 Mountain
4 Wandering Fumarole
MATCH UPS:
None Recorded
4x Ghoulsteed
3x Heir of Falkenrath
4x Pale Rider of Trostad
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Stitchwing Skaab
2x The Gitrog Monster
Enchantment (11)
4x Elemental Bond
4x Sinister Concoction
3x Vessel of Nascency
Planeswalker (2)
2x Kiora, Master of the Depths
3x Choked Estuary
2x Evolving Wilds
2x Forest
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Island
3x Llanowar Wastes
2x Lumbering Falls
1x Sunken Hollow
5x Swamp
1x Westvale Abbey
3x Yavimaya Coast
3x Languish
2x Natural State
3x Negate
3x Transgress the Mind
2x Ultimate Price
2x Virulent Plague
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 ghoulsteed
4 Despoiler of souls
4 Pale Rider of Trostad
Spells 14
3 Languish
4 Elemental Bond
3 vessel of nascency
4 Sinister Concoction
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Hissing Quagmire
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 forest
1 Languish
2 virulent plague
2 ultimate price
3 transgress the mind
3 negate
2 natural state
2 dragonlord silumgar
MATCH UPS:
None Recorded
4x Advanced Stitchwing
3x Geralf's Masterpiece
4x Stitchwing Skaab
4x Thing in the Ice
Instant (16)
4x Artificer's Epiphany
3x Broken Concentration
2x Catalog
4x Just the Wind
3x Unsubstantiate
4x Nagging Thoughts
4x Take Inventory
Land (21)
21x Island
3x Displacement Wave
2x Docent of Perfection
3x Negate
3x Spell Shrivel
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
3x Summary Dismissal
MATCH UPS:
Bant Company ( 1-0 )
He played company on my turn returning my Stitchwing Skaab to my hand with Reflector Mage, but during his turn I just pitched it with Catalog. I chuckled as I played it from the grave while Unsummoning a Sylvan Advocate and digging deeper. I eventually got a Thing in the Ice to stick and played catalog into nagging thoughts. Then countered his company and Unsubstantiate to flip my thing in the ice returning his whole board while I had two zombies and Awoken Horror on my side. One last counter to get rid of a Spell Queller and Flunged in for game. Final score: (16 - 0)
4x Salvage Drone
4x Wharf Infiltrator
4x Stitchwing Skaab
3x Advanced Stitchwing
3x Geralf's Masterpiece
2x Elder Deep-fiend
Instants (12)
4x Catalog
3x Broken Concentration
3x Just the Wind
2x Unsubstantiate
4x Nagging Thoughts
2x Pore over the Pages
Lands (22)
2x Geier Reach Sanitarium
4x Drownyard Temple
16x Islands
2x Artificer's Epiphany
1x Broken Concentration
3x Displacement Wave
2x Spell Shrivel
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
3x Thing in the Ice
1x Unsubstantiate
2x Welcome to the Fold
3 Geralf's Masterpiece
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Wharf Infiltrator
Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Spells (19):
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Axe
3 Nahiri's Wrath
4 Tormenting Voice
2 Highland Lake
7 Island
7 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
4 Wandering Fumarole
2 Catalog
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Dual Shot
4 Galvanic Bombardment
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Nahiri's Wrath
2 Negate
2 Asylum Visitor
2 Geralf's Masterpiece
4 Ghoulsteed
4 Heir of Falkenrath
1 Pale Rider of Trostad
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Salvage Drone
4 Stitchwing Skaab
2 Artificer's Epiphany
4 Broken Concentration
4 Catalog
2 Void Shatter
Lands 23
3 Blighted Cataract
4 Choked Estuary
9 Island
7 Swamp
I wanted to go with madness cards, they just weren't that good. I even looked into maybe adding red for more madness and more discard early. Those weren't that good either.
Mindwrack Demon definitely won't work for me. I only have 3 card types in my list lol.
And by the way, Just the Wind is very good.
The other cards, they really don't interest me. The way I hope to play this deck is getting a zombie in the GY during turns 1 and 2 (3 at the latest), and then EOT/instant shenanigans from then on. Enchantments don't really work into that vision. As for Tormenting Voice, I'm willing to pay an extra mana for the blue instant version, Catalog. Especially since it gives me the decision to disrupt if that would be more prudent.
I considered Just the Wind, but I think Compelling Deterrence is probably a better card choice (and is a sideboard card I'm likely to have). Just because there are non-creature threats out there that I might need to bounce.
4 Geralf's Masterpiece
4 Ghoulsteed
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Broken Concentration
4 Lightning Axe
4 Negate
Enchantments 4
4 Fevered Visions
4 Choked Estuary
4 Foreboding Ruins
8 Island
7 Mountain
1 Swamp
I'm pretty happy with where this deck is right now. It's a turn faster now that red was added. I typically only ever need black to revive Ghoulsteed, so it's not imperative that I hit it until turn 3 at the earliest. In most tests, it hasn't been a problem. The times I haven't hit it, I've been able to revive the other 2 until black came online. Prized Amalgam almost never gets cast. Just discarded and reanimated.
3x Bloodmad Vampire
2x Geralf's Masterpiece
1x Ghoulsteed
4x Heir of Falkenrath
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Prized Amalgam
3x Sin Prodder
4x Stitchwing Skaab
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Foreboding Ruins
1x Island
5x Mountain
3x Shivan Reef
4x Sunken Hollow
4x Swamp
1x Wandering Fumarole
3x Fiery Temper
3x Lightning Axe
Sorcery (4)
4x Tormenting Voice
Also found Sin Prodder feels at home with this deck since they will usually allow us card advantage so they don't take 4 off of Stitchwing Skaab.
The grixis build does feel more consistent to me, rounding a lot of the numbers up to 4 and 3 of's allows the discard outlet and fuel to be more on time and builds the board quickly.
Mister Life is swell in a padded cell, it'll chase those blues away..
You can trade your gloom for a rubber room and injections twice a day! "
I also picked Fevered Visions over Tormenting Voice because it draws cards. Tormenting Voices doesn't. You have to cast a card and discard a card to get 2 cards in hand, so your hand goes -2 cards + 2 cards. That's the same number of cards in hand, so it doesn't feed cards to the hand that can be used to revive zombies quicker.
No judgement on your deck, but it seems like it's a RB midrange deck with zombies grafted on. I haven't played it, so I don't know if it's good or bad or something else entirely. It's definitely interesting. Have any test results?
Also the reason for the major Red influence is because I really love Sin Prodder in this deck because majority of the creatures cost a lot of mana and will likely go to the hand for discard fuel. He is also a good body for the CMC. And Bloodmad Vampire is just a really good madness creature that every opponent I've gone against has to deal with her because of her size and growth ability.
Ghoulsteed is tittering on being removed for more Geralf's Masterpiece because of not having any ability and his cost is a a bit high for the body.
The only thing I really hate is that this deck is really fun to play, but the fact that it just feels like it needs more oomph from Eldritch Moon is killing me inside. Either way the games I've played with the Grixis Build went fairly well and feels competitive enough. But people I've tested against are playing some wild brews so I'm trying to get the cards together and go to my LGS to see how it holds up.
I said earlier in the thread that I'm not sold on madness cards. I'm still not. Almost all are underwhelming. I liked Asylum Visitor and I somewhat like Broken Concentration, but that's it. The rest seem to fall well short of what I feel the deck needs. For example, Fiery Temper seems great for 1 mana. The problem is it doesn't kill anything bigger than 3 toughness. What about Avacyn? What about a Thalia's Lieutenant beyond the 4th turn? Copy/Paste for every other madness card.
I've also said earlier that instants are better than sorceries for this deck because the zombies can come back EOT. We should definitely look at saving our mana for our opponent's turns and making great tempo plays. I personally don't like the "discard 1, draw 2" cards, and that's fine. Totally a personal preference, but if you like them, definitely take Catalog and Artificer's Epiphany instead. With the instants you can decide whether you want to draw or spot kill or bring back a zombie. If you use Tormented Voice, you make your decision while limiting your ability to respond.
Marc, you'll find the deck won't curve that way, even if you manage to draw all of those cards early. The reason is, you run out of cards in hand. So say you draw an amazing hand:
1 Land
1 Land
1 Land
1 Insolent Neonate
1 Stitchwing Skaab
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Ghoulsteed
1 Geralf's Masterpiece
Draw 2
1 Prized Amalgam
Draw 3
1 Land
Turn 1: 7 cards in hand. Play a land, Play Neonate. Pass turn 5 cards in hand.
Turn 2: Draw a card 6 cards in hand. Play a land, End of Opp's turn, sac Neonate discarding Skaab, draw a card. Return skaab by discarding 2 (Amalgam and Horse). Skaab and Amalgam are in play. Cards in hand 3.
Turn 3: Draw a card, 4 cards in hand. Play a land. EOT Return horse, discarding 2 (amalgam and masterpiece), skaab, horse and 2 amalgams in play. 1 card in hand.
Turn 4: Draw a card 2 cards in hand, play a land. End turn with 1 card in hand.
Don't get me wrong. This start is an incredibly explosive. You have 13 damage on the board ready to attack (plus the 6 damage you had on the board the turn before). However, you can see you run out of cards before you can curve into Geralf's.
Finally, for card drawing, I like Fevered Visions the best. With 11 self revive zombies, I never hurt for discarding past the first one and they need a ton of fuel to keep going. Fevered provides extra cards every turn it's in play. Tons of value. Beyond fueling the Zombies, it gives great pressure all by itself. I love it!
Sorry to add on, but this scenario illustrates just how badly the deck needs cards that get more cards in hand, not just dig into the deck. If we take that start and replace it with card drawing on turn 4, you can see how the point is illustrated.
Tormenting Voice/Catalog
Turn 4: Draw a card, 2 cards in hand. Play a land, can't play Tormenting Voice because it's the only card in hand. Can play Catalog, but you're still just left with 1 card in hand. It will be 2 more turns before you can revive Geralf's from GY provided you don't play any lands/cards.
Fevered Visions
Turn 4: Draw a card, 2 cards in hand. Play a land, play Fevered Visions. 0 cards in hand. Fevered likely deals 2 to your opponent. You draw 4 cards over the next 2 turns allowing you to play a card or land and put yourself in even better position when you revive Geralf's. It will help you recover faster after opponents sweep. It lets you keep drawing every turn without more mana expenditure.
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 ghoulsteed
4 Despoiler of souls
3 Risen executioner
1 Nephalia Moondrakes
Spells 14
2 Languish
4 Elemental Bond
4 vessel of nascency
4 Sinister Concoction
4 Llanowar Waste
4 Hissing Quagmire
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 forest
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Languish
2 virulent plague
2 ultimate price
3 transgress the mind
3 negate
3 natural state
The side deck is just a rough idea. I played a rougher version at a free standard and went 2-2 with it. Once the engine got going it just kept churning out zombies. My biggest problem was a lack of discard and removal early, I wasn't playing sinister concoction yet.
@stewieG21: That is a pretty tight deck I like that engine as well. Why not try out Heir of Falkenrath for a little extra discard outlet? Oh oh Pale Rider of Trostad would work great since he is power 3 triggering Bond and allowing you to discard. Actually I really like that play as a turn 4 play to play Stitchwing Skaab after Pale Rider drawing two card off of Bond. Hm neat idea I wouldn't mind playing around with it. Also gives you the room to add in Clip Wings in side board for Avacyn and Dragons.
Oh man you can play The Gitrog Monster if you play with green. Discard two lands to Skaab draw two for monster.
@stewie: I don't like the adding green idea very much. You don't have much going on early, but I see you have Languish to help stabilize. It's a good plan except Vessel of Nascency is just as likely to throw it in the GY where you can't use it. Oath of Jace would do a very similar thing except you'd be able to keep your Languish.
I also have to ask about a couple of creatures. Risen Executioner. How often are you able to revive it? If I had to guess, you would only be able to revive it on turns 4-6 and only if you had 0-2 other creatures in the GY. After that, it's just to expensive. Wouldn't Geralf's Masterpiece be better? You'd have to have 5 to 7 zombies on the board for Risen Executioner to give you more damage on the board. For that to happen you'd have to draw through roughly a quarter of your deck, which means turn 8 or 9. That's a long game. Most decks finish the game before you'd get that far.
Finally, Despoiler of Souls. Let me be unequivical. Despoiler is an amazing creature. One of the best in Standard. He's terrible in a they come back zombies deck. Exactly which creatures are you willing to exile? I can see getting rid of Risen Executioner, maybe the lone Moondrakes, but that's it. Anything else and you're throwing away more attack power than you're getting back. If you throw away 2 of any Skaab, Steed or Amalgam you're tossing away 6-7 damage that could come back for 3.
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 ghoulsteed
4 Despoiler of souls
4 Pale Rider
Spells 14
3 Languish
4 Elemental Bond
3 vessel of nascency
4 Sinister Concoction
4 Llanowar Waste
4 Hissing Quagmire
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 forest
1 Languish
2 virulent plague
2 ultimate price
3 transgress the mind
3 negate
2 natural state
2 dragonlord slumgar
3 Geralf's Masterpiece
4 Ghoulsteed
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Broken Concentration
3 Lightning Axe
3 Negate
Enchantments 4
4 Fevered Visions
Lands 23
4 Choked Estuary
4 Foreboding Ruins
7 Island
6 Mountain
2 Swamp
Just remember that it's normally a tempo deck, so play it that way. The mana is a little shakey because I'm not putting a lot of money into my hobby that I've just come back to this season. If you have the lands, or are more willing to put money into lands rotating out soon, then you can make it much more stable.
The only big change I made to the original list was adding in 4 Heirs and shaving elsewhere.
I think this is the main reason I shy away from green in these decks. Being in the situation where you have no cards in hand and no way to get your cards there faster. If you're in the situation where you have a Skaab and a Z-horse in the GY and Bond in play, having no cards in hand won't help you even though that Bond is sitting right there. If you add a Despoiler to that situation, yes you get a creature to come in and draw a card, but you have to exile 7 power to get back 3. The thing that makes they-come-back decks effective is that you overwhelm/outlast your opponents' removal and/or blockers. If you're exiling your own revivers, then you're doing your opponent's job for them.
I still dislike Vessel of Nascency compared to Oath of Jace. Granted, Vessel goes 1 card deeper, but that's it's only advantage. Oath let's you keep non-permanents + it discards from the hand. I can draw up 3 brand new cards, and then toss 2 zombies. I don't have to worry about losing Languish or any of the non-permanents I've sided in.
Stewie, do you have any problems getting zombies in the GY to get going? I know that I have 11 discard-to-revive zombies and 11 ways to get them in the GY early, and sometimes I manage to draw none of them until 5+ turns. You're running 8 zombies and 7 ways to get them in the GY. Seems like you'd run into that problem even more than I do.
The only reason I'm playing the vessel over the oath of jace is the curve. The three drop slot is so full already, plus there are a lot of werewolfs being played and I need something to keep them from flipping.
I agree that there are times having to remove a zombie to bring back a despoiler seems bad but if it draws you 2-3 cards and adds 6-9 power it is a fair trade.
I'm hoping this deck gets some help from the new set. It needs another turn 1 or 2 play.