Something to consider as a possible funny interaction... Stasis Snare is a good card to hold up to protect Always Watching against Dromoka's Command. Imagine they cast Dromoka's Command, perhaps wanting to fight one of your creatures and make you sacrifice an enchantment. In response, flash in Stasis Snare, target your own creature they are fighting, sac it to Dromoka's Command while blanking their fight, get your creature back, if it has an ETB effect (Thalia's Lieutenant, Reflector Mage, Knight of the White Orchid), get the ETB effect... could be fun! I know Stasis Snare is harder to cast than Silkwrap, but it's a no-nonsense removal that can be flashed in at key moments. Another thing most people don't consider is that it can target Reality Smasher without being hit by the discard clause, because it's not a spell. Most players I've played against who run Reality Smasher think it's spell or ability, but it's not.
snare and silk warp both opponents creatures fyi
Ah dang, didn't read the card before making up that idea. Can still snare their creature in response to save Always Watching, but won't get the same interaction.
I really like MrM0nd4y's list, it's almost exactly what I had in mind. In fact, I've just been waffling between splashing green or blue. I'm thinking blue might be better in the long run because you have access to better sideboard cards like Negate (which I think will be extremely valuable in the upcoming standard with the presence of big, potentially game ending planeswalkers like Chandra and Sorin). I don't think green adds much to your sideboard choices except something like Evolutionary Leap to dodge targeted removal. For the record, here's my Wu Humans list:
Sideboard is a work in progress. I like the card choices but am not totally sure of the numbers. Thinking that Gideon will come in for slower, grindy matches and swap in for his counterpart Kytheon.
If I did splash green, I'd have almost the same exact list as MrM0nd4y had posted earlier with a couple sideboard changes:
Here is or close to the 75 I will be most likely playing at Baltimore. I really want to play a Chandra/Archangel deck but I think it is better to be aggressive and consistent Day 1 Week 1. The biggest difference I see here compared to other lists is Surrak>Archangel and the warrior subtheme. I think if there are going to be alot of slow grindy decks and alot of groundpoundy aggro decks A BIG creature that grants haste is great. His Stats are Close to perfect, 1 more point of toughness would be nice but he does punch through an Archangel (of tithes). It is trivial to turn him on with this deck between tracker and Lambholt (Which I will bring up later)and haste is not something people expect from a green deck.
Arishin foremost on the other hand I am a little less sure about. For curve purposes I wanted another 3 drop and she fit the bill best. We have 10 other warriors and as a vanilla 2/2 Doublestrike human for 3 she is almost good enough. Between Always watching, Thalia's Lieutenant and Dromoka's command we have plenty of ways to pump her into an abyss or die. Plus she allows for nutty free win starts (1 drop, 2 drop warrior swing for 1, Her hit for 5, Surrak swing for 17).
Lambholt Pacifist is another one that is odd to see but as a 3/3 potential 4/4 for 2 that is also a human she has been great. We have 11 ways to turn her into a 4/4 pre flip and 5 (9 if you count Tracker) other creatures that turn her on. I wanted to play more but the other 2 drops are way too strong.
On a final note I think Dromoka's Command went from being good to being insane again. I feel like there will not only be alot of creature combat where it excels but there will also be alot of enchantments. It breaks the Always watching mirror wide open.
Craig Wescoe's article this week covers some of the same territory that we've talked about in this thread. Check it out, there's some good ideas to look over.
I like the second list more. I feel like Company lists have to get away from the aggressive human style lists and into a more value shell with Thalia's Lieutenant/Tireless Tracker/Bygone Bishop.
In testing I haven't found Consul's Lt to be great, but that could just be what I have been testing against (GR Ramp and BW Midrange/Control). In those Matches it just feels terrible. I was thinking of cutting them in the second list for a 3rd Anafenza, a forth Tireless and a forth Duskwatch Recruiter. What do you think?
I agree about the Company list. With Deathmist Raptors losing favor due to the prevalence of exile effects, Tireless Tracker and Bygone Bishop are essential 3-drops for the deck. As an extra added bonus, they synergize extremely well with one another and their easy color requirements could fit nicely in a Bant Company list if the mana can be worked out.
I haven't actually tested the Consul's Lieutenant against other decks, but I can see how it would be bad against BW Midrange game one because of all their targeted removal. I'd probably board in Negates or Dispels in response, meaning the Lieutenant might be better post board. Seems like it would be effective early against Ramp to try and kill them before they can get any haymakers onto the board. What about the Ramp matchup was bad?
I agree about the Company list. With Deathmist Raptors losing favor due to the prevalence of exile effects, Tireless Tracker and Bygone Bishop are essential 3-drops for the deck. As an extra added bonus, they synergize extremely well with one another and their easy color requirements could fit nicely in a Bant Company list if the mana can be worked out.
I agree with this completely. Declaration/Stasis Snare/Silkwrap are making the Den Protector/Raptor package really clunky and a fair number of pros have noted that in their articles. I'm hoping to get a Company list going, but so far my lists have a few kinks to work out.
Edit: How do I get those boxes for my decks?
There's a button on the bar above the text box, second from the right. You click that and just type your cards into it and it will format it for you!
I haven't actually tested the Consul's Lieutenant against other decks, but I can see how it would be bad against BW Midrange game one because of all their targeted removal. I'd probably board in Negates or Dispels in response, meaning the Lieutenant might be better post board. Seems like it would be effective early against Ramp to try and kill them before they can get any haymakers onto the board. What about the Ramp matchup was bad?
One card wrecks my day: Kozilek's Return! With most of my other creatures I can get them above x/2, and then I am behind board after the wipe. But it could have just been luck. I am not sure I only played the match about 7-9 times, so I don't have enough data to suggest it one way or the other. Also, it isn't great against Sylvan Advocate until it has a counter, but they drop that before it gets its counter! But again this may simply be bad luck.
No, that makes sense, I hadn't considered Kozilek's Return for some reason. I guess that would be another situation for Negate/Dispel or even Eerie Interlude post board.
I haven't actually tested the Consul's Lieutenant against other decks, but I can see how it would be bad against BW Midrange game one because of all their targeted removal. I'd probably board in Negates or Dispels in response, meaning the Lieutenant might be better post board. Seems like it would be effective early against Ramp to try and kill them before they can get any haymakers onto the board. What about the Ramp matchup was bad?
One card wrecks my day: Kozilek's Return! With most of my other creatures I can get them above x/2, and then I am behind board after the wipe. But it could have just been luck. I am not sure I only played the match about 7-9 times, so I don't have enough data to suggest it one way or the other. Also, it isn't great against Sylvan Advocate until it has a counter, but they drop that before it gets its counter! But again this may simply be bad luck.
Finding your post a bit confusing. Kozilek's Return deals two damage, so creatures above x/2 (and therefore presumably x/3 or bigger) are safe from Kozilek's Return unless they are triggering it from the GY. Same goes for Sylvan Advocate, who comes down as a 2/3 and survives KR without a counter. If they are triggering from the GY, none of the creatures will survive unless you already have a winning board state.
I played a few test games and a very constant thing that would happen would be my early creatures (the Savannah Lions) dying to Fiery Impulse, Kolaghan's Command, Dead Weight, and Kozilek's Return even with Always Watching or Thalia's Lieutenant buffing them. I wasn't a huge fan of the fact that Incited Rabblemaster has to attack every turn, but that didn't stop me from playing Flamewake Phoenix in R/B Dragons so I'm willing to give it a chance now and that extra point of toughness is looking more and more necessary.
On the other hand, Consul's Lieutenant has failed to impress, and I probably need to replace it with something better.
I think Jund is a rough match for us, though. So much spot removal, so much card draw, so many two-for-ones, Goblin Darkdwellers, as well as access to the best sweepers in the format (Return, Languish, Chandra) and creatures almost as tough as our own make it a slog to get through most games against it in my experience.
I don't want many one drops since they get outclassed, but Thraben Inspector is like basically Elvish Visionary so I figured we'd keep some in there. Bygone Bishop's flying is legit and the card advantage you can get between the Bishop and Tracker is crazy. Hitting almost anything off of Company is sweet, though Thalia's Lieutenant is probably the best. Kytheon is fine but a bit low impact, though if he ever flips he becomes crazy good, so I feel that the opportunity cost is low enough to run him.
TL;DR I've had a blast with this deck. I tried it originally with Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor but just wasn't a fan. I like Recruiter and Lieutenant more.
I really like the list, that's one of the most solid Company lists I've seen so far. As I had mentioned earlier, I love the Tracker/Bishop synergy. I was curious as to your decision to not run Den Protectors. The recursion could be really valuable and, along with the clue tokens, would allow the deck to compete better in the long grindy matchups. Also, the Den Protectors would work with Lieutenant too. Just curious as to that decision.
I haven't really tried running Den Protector without Raptor, which is kind of silly now that I think about it. I'll have to try a couple out in place of the Duskwatch Recruiters. I don't want to run more than 2-3 because of the nonbo with Company, though the combo with Always Watching and Thalia's Lieutenant does seem pretty sweet.
Yeah, seems like Den Protector would be worth testing in that deck. I do like it better than the Recruiter, and it would give additional mystery as a morph creature. How has Kytheon been in a Company shell?
The list I played was even worse than the above because I couldn't find Thalia's Lieutenant, always watching, or Port town, so I replaced them with the 3 mana +2/+1 sorcery from SOI (can't recall the name), an Eerie Interlude, and a Meandering River. I never saw interlude, but the +2/+1 sorcery did win me a few games. Still, I can't imagine it's better than Lieutenant.
Anyway, I think this is the way to go. The deck has some ridiculous curves and regularly kills on turn 4-5. It's a little bit of a "sweeper" gambit though -- without a gideon the deck is very weak to them. In the sideboard, I think Invasive Surgery could go a long way to helping that problem, as well as dispel for kozilek's return.
Six blue sources doesn't seem like alot, but knight is very frequently a blue source (even when you're on the play, since the deck doesn't play a lot of lands anyway) so it's much closer to 10. Reflector mage may seem like a strange card to splash for, but it is really perfect for the deck. It's almost a removal spell on a 2/3.
Looks like Seth Manfield is playing something similar today at the SCG Baltimore Open
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Yeah, seems like Den Protector would be worth testing in that deck. I do like it better than the Recruiter, and it would give additional mystery as a morph creature. How has Kytheon been in a Company shell?
Kytheon is fine. He's not super great but whenever he flips he becomes really good, so I figured it was worth keeping him around.
Yeah, seems like Den Protector would be worth testing in that deck. I do like it better than the Recruiter, and it would give additional mystery as a morph creature. How has Kytheon been in a Company shell?
Kytheon is fine. He's not super great but whenever he flips he becomes really good, so I figured it was worth keeping him around.
Makes sense. I was running Bant Company (minus Jace because I'm poor) last standard, so I'd love for it to still be a viable deck. Glad to know Kytheon is good!
Yeah, Emma Handy is undefeated with it currently. I haven't seen the exact list, but I watched it on stream and it is almost exactly what we've been discussing.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Ah dang, didn't read the card before making up that idea. Can still snare their creature in response to save Always Watching, but won't get the same interaction.
2x Island
13x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
1x Westvale Abbey
Creatures (28)
4x Thraben Inspector
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Consul's Lieutenant
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Reflector Mage
4x Archangel of Tithes
2x Dragonlord Ojutai
3x Declaration in Stone
1x Silkwrap
4x Always Watching
3x Eerie Interlude
2x Felidar Cub
4x Negate
1x Silkwrap
3x Lantern Scout
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Sideboard is a work in progress. I like the card choices but am not totally sure of the numbers. Thinking that Gideon will come in for slower, grindy matches and swap in for his counterpart Kytheon.
If I did splash green, I'd have almost the same exact list as MrM0nd4y had posted earlier with a couple sideboard changes:
4x Canopy Vista
2x Forest
4x Fortified Village
13x Plains
1x Westvale Abbey
Creatures (28)
4x Thraben Inspector
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Consul's Lieutenant
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Archangel of Tithes
2x Sigarda, Heron's Grace
3x Declaration in Stone
1x Silkwrap
4x Always Watching
2x Dromoka's Command
2x Evolutionary Leap
3x Eerie Interlude
2x Felidar Cub
1x Silkwrap
3x Lantern Scout
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
I welcome any feedback, what do you think?
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
2 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Den Protector
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Arashin Foremost
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Archangel Avacyn
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Forest
7 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey
3 Clip Wings
3 Bygone Bishop
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Archangel Avacyn
3 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Lantern Scout
Here is or close to the 75 I will be most likely playing at Baltimore. I really want to play a Chandra/Archangel deck but I think it is better to be aggressive and consistent Day 1 Week 1. The biggest difference I see here compared to other lists is Surrak>Archangel and the warrior subtheme. I think if there are going to be alot of slow grindy decks and alot of groundpoundy aggro decks A BIG creature that grants haste is great. His Stats are Close to perfect, 1 more point of toughness would be nice but he does punch through an Archangel (of tithes). It is trivial to turn him on with this deck between tracker and Lambholt (Which I will bring up later)and haste is not something people expect from a green deck.
Arishin foremost on the other hand I am a little less sure about. For curve purposes I wanted another 3 drop and she fit the bill best. We have 10 other warriors and as a vanilla 2/2 Doublestrike human for 3 she is almost good enough. Between Always watching, Thalia's Lieutenant and Dromoka's command we have plenty of ways to pump her into an abyss or die. Plus she allows for nutty free win starts (1 drop, 2 drop warrior swing for 1, Her hit for 5, Surrak swing for 17).
Lambholt Pacifist is another one that is odd to see but as a 3/3 potential 4/4 for 2 that is also a human she has been great. We have 11 ways to turn her into a 4/4 pre flip and 5 (9 if you count Tracker) other creatures that turn her on. I wanted to play more but the other 2 drops are way too strong.
On a final note I think Dromoka's Command went from being good to being insane again. I feel like there will not only be alot of creature combat where it excels but there will also be alot of enchantments. It breaks the Always watching mirror wide open.
Craig Wescoe's article this week covers some of the same territory that we've talked about in this thread. Check it out, there's some good ideas to look over.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
His UW list seems solid though.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
This is the first time I will be playing standard in 14 years. Trying to Decide between two lists for Baltimore:
The first I am running Collected Company. I am worried about sweepers and BW control.
Lands 23
11 Plains
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Town
2 Forest
2 Westvale Abbey
Creatures 27
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Thalia's LT
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Anafenza
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Dustwatch Recruiter
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Spells 7
3 Declaration in Stone
4 Collected Company
Enchantments 3
3 Always Watching
61st Card:
1 Kytheon
Side 15
2 Archangel of Tithes
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Eerie Interlude
2 Lantern Scout
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Hidden Dragonslayer
It limits my top end to just one 5 drop, but I don't think I would go up too much more than that.
Here is the other version I am considering:
Lands 23
11 Plains
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Town
2 Forest
2 Westvale Abbey
Creatures 29
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Thalia's LT
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Consul's LT
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Anafenza
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Dustwatch Recruiter
1 Kytheon
2 Sigarda, Hero of
Spells 4
4 Declaration in Stone
Enchantments 4
4 Always Watching
Side 15
2 Archangel of Tithes
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Dromoka's Command
4 Eerie Interlude
2 Lantern Scout
2 Hidden Dragonslayer
With this version I get to run a bit faster, but don't recover from a boardwipe as well.
Edit: How do I get those boxes for my decks?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
I agree with this completely. Declaration/Stasis Snare/Silkwrap are making the Den Protector/Raptor package really clunky and a fair number of pros have noted that in their articles. I'm hoping to get a Company list going, but so far my lists have a few kinks to work out.
There's a button on the bar above the text box, second from the right. You click that and just type your cards into it and it will format it for you!
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
One card wrecks my day: Kozilek's Return! With most of my other creatures I can get them above x/2, and then I am behind board after the wipe. But it could have just been luck. I am not sure I only played the match about 7-9 times, so I don't have enough data to suggest it one way or the other. Also, it isn't great against Sylvan Advocate until it has a counter, but they drop that before it gets its counter! But again this may simply be bad luck.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
Finding your post a bit confusing. Kozilek's Return deals two damage, so creatures above x/2 (and therefore presumably x/3 or bigger) are safe from Kozilek's Return unless they are triggering it from the GY. Same goes for Sylvan Advocate, who comes down as a 2/3 and survives KR without a counter. If they are triggering from the GY, none of the creatures will survive unless you already have a winning board state.
On the other hand, Consul's Lieutenant has failed to impress, and I probably need to replace it with something better.
I think Jund is a rough match for us, though. So much spot removal, so much card draw, so many two-for-ones, Goblin Darkdwellers, as well as access to the best sweepers in the format (Return, Languish, Chandra) and creatures almost as tough as our own make it a slog to get through most games against it in my experience.
4 Fortified Village
4 Canopy Vista
2 Forest
12 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey
4 Collected Company
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Always Watching
Creatures (28)
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Hidden Dragonslayer
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Bygone Bishop
2 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Some notes:
I don't want many one drops since they get outclassed, but Thraben Inspector is like basically Elvish Visionary so I figured we'd keep some in there. Bygone Bishop's flying is legit and the card advantage you can get between the Bishop and Tracker is crazy. Hitting almost anything off of Company is sweet, though Thalia's Lieutenant is probably the best. Kytheon is fine but a bit low impact, though if he ever flips he becomes crazy good, so I feel that the opportunity cost is low enough to run him.
TL;DR I've had a blast with this deck. I tried it originally with Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor but just wasn't a fan. I like Recruiter and Lieutenant more.
Edit: wrong Sigarda.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
4x Topplegeist
4x Town Gossipmonger
4x Dragon Hunter
4x Expedition Envoy
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
2x Declaration in Stone
4x Reflector Mage
1x Always Watching
14x Plains
2x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
The list I played was even worse than the above because I couldn't find Thalia's Lieutenant, always watching, or Port town, so I replaced them with the 3 mana +2/+1 sorcery from SOI (can't recall the name), an Eerie Interlude, and a Meandering River. I never saw interlude, but the +2/+1 sorcery did win me a few games. Still, I can't imagine it's better than Lieutenant.
Anyway, I think this is the way to go. The deck has some ridiculous curves and regularly kills on turn 4-5. It's a little bit of a "sweeper" gambit though -- without a gideon the deck is very weak to them. In the sideboard, I think Invasive Surgery could go a long way to helping that problem, as well as dispel for kozilek's return.
Six blue sources doesn't seem like alot, but knight is very frequently a blue source (even when you're on the play, since the deck doesn't play a lot of lands anyway) so it's much closer to 10. Reflector mage may seem like a strange card to splash for, but it is really perfect for the deck. It's almost a removal spell on a 2/3.
Looks like Seth Manfield is playing something similar today at the SCG Baltimore Open
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Kytheon is fine. He's not super great but whenever he flips he becomes really good, so I figured it was worth keeping him around.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Makes sense. I was running Bant Company (minus Jace because I'm poor) last standard, so I'd love for it to still be a viable deck. Glad to know Kytheon is good!
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
Yeah, Emma Handy is undefeated with it currently. I haven't seen the exact list, but I watched it on stream and it is almost exactly what we've been discussing.
W Humans
Modern
G Stompy
EDH
GWU Rafiq
edit: he's a bit bigger with ojutai and multiple 4 drops, morphs, etc.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic