This thread is a continuation of the thread that was archived with Rotation. I think the R/B Dragon shell is still viable at least until Thunderbreak Regent rotates. My personal thoughts are it will incorporate some of the new vampires with SOI but lists would not require them.
Your ideas and lists are welcome.The most valuable resource is testing results.
Couple of quick ideas to get the ball rolling.
A shell of Heir of Falkenrath-> Olivia->Regent-> Goblin DD -> Chandra/DL Kolaghan. Very mid range. First 3 turns, unless casting the two creatures that slot there would be kill spells and discard spells. Very much like the pre Theros R/B Dragon type list.
Another is the Tom Ross list simply swapping out Phoenix and Kolaghan SF with Heir and Olvia. The remaining Thopter synergies remain(Goblin DD I think would also work well as a 3 of replacing Pia and 1x Thopter Engineer because he can buy back the spells discarded by Heir and Olivia if you had no madness cards in hand).
Olivia into Regent, discarding D Roar into GDD buying back D roar(or any burn or kill spell) is pretty potent and demands immediate answer by opp. Just a few ideas.
I think Sin Prodder has a good chance in the deck since it's going midrange. Goldnight Castigator in the sideboard is a much against controlly matchups where your life total is not threatened early.
The one thing that carried dragons were evasion. I think every creature in a potential list would need evasion of some sort or be so valuble on it's own as to not need it.
I know there were plenty of Dragon players last standard on these boards so giving this thread a little bump. Also, something came to me last night. With Heir and Olivia both discarding cards, we need not overload on madness. That's another synergy with GDD. He can just buy them back later on so if you have an Ex Firecraft for instance, dump it then rebuy with GDD.
Other big, ugly stuff:
Mindwreck Demon?
Dragonlord Kolaghan?
Ever After? Would be fun for Goblin Dark Dwellers or Regents
Or something more for madness enabling?
Y0u could also try Necromantic Summons. Easier on the mana and allows you to reach into the opponents graveyard too. But you wont be able to either Summons or Ever After with Goblin dark-dwellers. They have to be 3cmc or less
I played Mardu Thopter Dragons before rotation and it was a house that I did really well with. I am looking to port Dragon's over to SoI and this is the direction I am going. I still feel Draconic Roar is a superb removal spell and with the addition of Fiery Temper gives us great removal that can also go to the dome. I really like the idea of swinging with a T4 5/5 flying hasted Dragon that is going to get a minimum of 3 dmg in followed up by a T5 5/5 Hasted Menace that gets to cast a free spell. As stated above Goblin Dark-Dwellers is an all star for this deck as it can buy back all our spells we pitch to either Olivia or Heir. Kolaghan's Command performs this same function but for any creature we may be inclined to pitch and getting to repeat such action with a GDD, it is real similar to the GDD + Pulse of Murasa combo Mardu Green decks were running. With the amount of removal we run Dragonlord Kolaghan may actually get to do some work, hence the 2 plus they help with Roar reveals. Sideboard is still in its infancy. My big issue is whether to go with Languish or Flaying Tendrils for my black sweeper, taking into consideration GDD being able to buy back a Tendrils. Still waiting for my Olivia's and hope to get some games in this week.
The reasoning behind DLK being to costly is not a valid one imo for 3 reasons. First, Mono Red Eldrazi uses Chandra, Flamecaller as a 4 of for their finisher w/o any real drawback. Secondly, Archangel Avacyn is a 5 drop and will most likely put some dudes in their own yard with its trigger. Thus making DLK's 3rd ability extremely relevant as those decks will always want to refill their board post wipe and DLK can put a huge pinch on that plan. Finally, it really helps to make Draconic Roar a more consistent Searing Blaze. Like I said, waiting on my Olivia's before I can give a real go with testing this weekend. I plan on playing this or Mono Red Eldrazi for states. I would really like it if this deck pans out in one form or another, the sheer amount of evasion and decent removals both Targeted and Mass should put this archetype close to T1 in the coming weeks.
Also, on MD Discard, I think we are in a good spot with MD discard right now. Early you can usually snag a Madness card when people are most likely to tap out early and late you usually find a juicy spell, either way your getting info for 1 mana. Post board Transgress gets really good, especially against control decks. I would however advise against using Kolaghan's Command's Discard mechanic unless they are tapped out, don't want to be giving any free Madness triggers .
Szczyka - This deck isn't looking to race. It's looking to kill things turns 1-3 then drop bigger creatures than them. Your deck list falls into the same trap early vamp decks did. Not fast enough to race and not big enough to close. Right now, if you want vamps, they either go in super 2 drop max aggro or in a mid range shell where there's 1-3 of them.
Flipdipple - Instead of K Command , may want to try 2x Chandra. She can do everything this deck wants. Clear the board, refuel, or push thru the last bits of damage. While I like Heir of Falkenrath, it may be better just to cut her and add more removal/burn. You could also consider threats like Mindrack Demon to give fodder for GDD. Alot of different ways to build the deck.
Definitely let us know your testing results.
I think people are totally underestimating the effect Olivia has in the right deck. Each one of our threats reminds me alot of Abzan where it's basically deal with it the turn it drops or die.
It's good against small creatures deck : White Humans, Bant CoCo. But you just get outclass by G/R Ramp, and other real Midrange (BW, differents versions of other BR, Jund etc).
Maybe this list can be tweaked so we can have something real.
Goldnight Castigator out of the sideboard should have "I am designed to beat ramp and control" written on it. Also replacing ult price with exq firecraft would be nice to cast and then buy back with GDD. That's 8 point of damage to a deck that isn't pressuring your life total.
Mid range typically struggles against ramp and if the other mid range deck is more controlly, it gains that advantage.
savedsynner - you are absolutely correct about Olivia. I think curving out from her our threats become way more threatening with each turn she is allowed to stay in play. I really like K-Command for its ability to get a pitched creature back, thus giving us a bit more flexibility in what we can pitch for either Heir or Olivia. Mindrack pushes us more into the Black due it being BB, I look at this as more of a Big Red deck that splashes Black.
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Current Decks Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BWGUB Sultai Constrictor BUG Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG Modern : GB Golgari Elves BGGR Atarka Goblins RG Pauper : W Heroic WGB Delve BG
Cool, yeah, Flipdipple, let us know how it goes. As long as creature decks are tier one, B/R Mid Range/Dragons will have a place in the format barring some really specific hate card that ruins the deck(like C Doom was for us once non mardu decks started playing it)
I really want to try and test a deck like this for the coming up pptq and GPS. I want a more aggressive version with burn and heir of falkenwrath, dranas, Olivia, thunder break, and GDD as the creatures. Chandra at the top end. Fiery temper and impulse. Roar. Ult price and k command as the removal. This sounds like a great deck prob is putting it together.
Lukeazade1991- Agreed. Right now no one on the pro circuit is playing Rakdos anything so testing is entirely via smaller markets like this, which means the normal "hone a deck until perfection" is going to take longer since alot of people onlytest what they see the pros doing.
I think R/B has a great deck in it and your list is very interesting. I like the delirium synergy between walker and mindrack.
The funny thing is R/B anything well built has a good match up against the current two top decks: bant company and w/x humans.
Have you considered goldnight castigator out of the sideboard for controlly matchups?
Yeah, reflector mage is tough against Heir and without GDD, I wouldn't even bother trying her but ditching a spell only to be rebought two turns later is nice, and justifies running the heir.
I think everyone was so burnt by how bad early r/b vampire decks were, they wrote off R/B entirely. The problem is early adopters of the vamps built decks that weren't fast enough to race or big enough to close. R/B vamps are quite good when either super low to the ground or put a few in a r/b shell midrange shell.
Until someone on the pro level discovers this, we'll keep brewing.
Great report Lukeazade 1991. I wasn't able to get any games in this weekend, the Steelhead are running. Planning on a good week of testing before states next weekend.
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Current Decks Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BWGUB Sultai Constrictor BUG Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG Modern : GB Golgari Elves BGGR Atarka Goblins RG Pauper : W Heroic WGB Delve BG
This is the closest thread to what I'm currently playing. TBH, this deck kicks ass! The deck is all about card advantage. Most cards in the deck either provide more value than typical of a single card (Draconic Roar, Thunderbreak Regent), or provide actual card advantage (Kolaghan's Command, Goblin Dark-Dwellers). The hand disruption cards are the only cards that I consider 1 for 1, but I find them essential to formatting your game plan while also disrupting your opponent.
The main deck is pretty set at this point. I've considered dropping the singleton Twin Bolt for a 3rd Dragonlord Kolaghan, but that's pretty much the only change I would consider making at this point. Perhaps I'm overlooking something in the manabase, but I can't think of anything new to add. The sideboard is still a work in progress, and will likely become more defined as the format defines itself.
Thanks for the deck list. Can you tell us how you have been kicking ass with it?
How good has been Kolaghan's command been for you? Examples? Most of us that played R/b dragons last Standard opted out of that card. But we also did not play Goblin Dark-dwellers.
And the Dragonlord. Tell us how it has been for you. Thanks
First 1-3 turns is focused on sequencing of lands, and disrupting opponents. You want to play your lands out so that you're going into turns 3-4 with lands that don't EtB tapped. You play your hand disruption to look at what your opponent is trying to do. You sequence the next few turns based on that knowledge. You can also play removal as necessary. I'm not usually worried about a 1-2 drop from my opponent, as Draconic Roar and Kolaghan's Command can usually answer those threats effectively. You can also jam down a Hangarback Walker if there is nothing else to do. Lastly, I have Read the Bones to help ensure that I hit my 4th land drop.
Turn 4 usually results in my jamming down Thunderbreak Regent, or the occasional Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I want to take a moment here to say how awesome this card has been. I don't particularly like playing Hangarback Walker without a way to kill him off. Pia and Kiran offer a sac outlet for Artifacts, in addition to giving me three bodies in one card. There is very good synergy here, and I recommend playing Pia and Kiran with Hangarback.
Turn 5 is typically a pivotal turn. Usually at this point I have played some removal, disruption, or preferably Kolaghan's Command. My favorite thing in Standard right now is Goblin Dark-Dwellers into K Command. I'm killing something, making my opponent discard, or bringing back my Hangarback or Thunderbreak from my grave to hand, all while getting a 4/4 Menace. Sometimes I am just replaying Duress or Transgress the Mind, giving me another look at my opponent's hand. I think Goblin Dark-Dwellers is the MVP of the deck, as it can be absolutely backbreaking for my opponent. That is specifically why I maxed out on K Command. I've never found it to be a problem. Even late game, I just bring back the most threatening creature in my grave and hit them for 2, or something. It's very good.
Usually at this point, I've gotten the game wrapped up for the most part. If not, Dragonlord Kolaghan can do some pretty nasty things. Even if the board is stalled, it makes playing more threats easier because your opponent can take 10 damage for anything they play that you've already killed.
On a side note: I'm currently running 6 dragons, and am not sure if that's quite enough. When I had 7, I found that Draconic Roar was hitting for max damage about 80% of the time. I'm not sure where that percentage is at with 6, but it's certainly lower. I do like having Twin Bolt though, as it's a 5th card that can answer Jace on turn 2. So I'm somewhat torn between these two.
Cool and thanks for the details. Regarding Dragonlord Kolaghan: When we first started playing Rakdos dragons back in December/January, it was thought that 2x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury was the most you wanted because of Legend. Then we decided to add a third to increase our chances of getting one on turn 5 and draconic roar triggers. Finally we realized that KSF was the pinnacle of the Dragon tri-force and that 4 max was essential. This could also be true of Rakdos dragons now relating to Dragonlord Kolaghan.
Also, perhaps instead of twin bolt you run fiery impulse. Grasp of Darkness has been outstanding in my BC Eldrazi deck. It hits a lot of creatures out there. A lot.
Probably the most important question to ask of your deck now would be: What were match ups?
I've been playing mostly on Cockatrice, and with some people at my LGS. There have been a small variety of things I've played against. Bant decks with Collected Company. RG decks that ramp into Eldrazi, among other fatties. BW Control with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Sorin, Grim Nemesis, sometimes splashing blue for Dragonlord Ojutai. There's always the Rx aggro decks running around at this phase of a new meta too.
I find the CC decks do have some good cards. As you stated, Reflector Mage can be pretty nasty. I haven't seen any running Eldrazi Displacer, but I definitely see why those two cards are strong together. The main thing I found is that their best card advantage is Collected Company, which makes it usually the main target of Duress and Transgress the Mind. Reflector Mage can slow you down, but isn't great against most of our creatures. Thunderbreak Regent deals damage when they target it. Pia and Kiran Nalaar leaves their tokens behind, and produces more Thopters when they eventually come back into play. Goblin Dark-Dwellers lets you cast another spell from your grave. Even Hangarback Walker is flexible enough to fit back into your curve at a reasonable point, and can become bigger in some cases.
Not only that, but this deck has more card advantage built into it. I can slow them down with the disruption, and trade off my creatures for theirs knowing I can get mine back later with Kolaghan's Command. Then there is the part where most of their creatures don't fly, so there is little they can do when we are on the offensive with Dragons and Thopters. The match up has seemed pretty favorable in the games I've played so far.
The RG Ramp decks are pretty good. They play maindeck Kozilek's Return, which doesn't seem so nasty until they cast World Breaker and wipe my board. Their early game doesn't effect me much, so the best route is to try to win as quickly as possible. The best cards against them are Transgress the Mind and Ruinous Path, but I only run two in the main. Even when I bring in the other copies post board, they still usually draw into more threats than I can deal with. This is admittedly one of the toughest match ups.
The Control decks really aren't that bad. As you stated, the white based removal is the scariest thing for me to deal with. I don't like my creatures getting Exiled. It's one of the reasons I run 4 Duress main. Hangarback Walker and Kolaghan's Command don't mind Wrath effects. Descend Upon the Sinful seems really bad for me, but I haven't been seeing people play that card for some reason. A down side is that Draconic Roar is dead outside of hitting Gideon in creature form to deal damage to your opponent. Despite that, this deck produces more pressure than the Control decks can seem to deal with. In most of the games, I eventually grind them out. The match up seems favorable.
Rx Aggro decks can sometimes get there if they have an aggressive hand, and I don't have enough early game cards to interact with them. Slowing them down enough to get into a mid game can bring things into my favor. At that point, the card advantage can really take a game over. Landing a Goblin Dark-Dwellers into most removal spells can do a great job of stabilizing the board. From there you can build up and work out an offensive. Be wary of waiting too long, just in case they are sandbagging burn spells. This match up seems pretty even, if not slightly in my favor.
Tonight I lost against a guy playing a WU Flyers list. Always Watching and Archangel of Tithes was pretty nasty. He also played Archangel Avacyn and Meddling Mage. I'm not sure if he played Dragonlord Ojutai. I didn't see it, but I suggested it to him after the match. I dominated the first game, and felt like I should have won the second game as well. I kept an iffy hand, but it worked out. I just miscounted some damage, and blew myself out with a huge misplay. There was a major flood in game 3, and I just couldn't put any pressure on him. It felt winnable, but it was a good learning experience.
Admittedly, this is from a small sample base of around 40 or so games (roughly 18 matches) while I've developed the deck. I've also been pretty lazy about keeping notes. After playing today, I feel like the deck wants to have more threats. You're kind of echoing that with the Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury statement, so I think I'm going to bring that up to 3. Maybe 4 down the road, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I'm probably fine on burn based removal, and cards like Grasp of Darkness. If anything, I would want to add more hard removal. Ruinous Path has been pretty good.
One thing I will say is that I am looking forward to taking this deck to States this weekend.
Thats pretty good.
Regarding Transgress the mind, thats a nonbo with Dragonlord kolaghan because we want to put cards in the graveyard and not in exile.
Wouldnt you agree?
Thats pretty good.
Regarding Transgress the mind, thats a nonbo with Dragonlord kolaghan because we want to put cards in the graveyard and not in exile.
Wouldnt you agree?
DL Kolaghan is in the deck because he's a dragon and a 6/5 flier with haste. Everything else is IMO, just icing. Since creature decks are so popular right now, filling the GY with creatures should not be a problem for a R/B mid range deck of any kind.
It's pretty obvious that there is not synergy there, but I don't think it's a reason to not play good cards. Transgress the Mind is our best option for hand disruption. It's conditional, as is Duress (which can hit Planeswalkers for Dragonlord Kolaghan ), but the fact that it can hit any spell that costs 3 or more is pretty substantial. I'm actually considering changing the ratio between those cards because I think it's that good.
Dragonlord Kolaghan is also pretty good, and has synergy with other cards. That's just fine by me.
On a side note: I've been seeing quite a few White Weenie decks running around today. It seems pretty even, and dependent on draws and who plays first. I'm inclined to add more Fiery Impulse to my board. Kozilek's Return is pretty sweet in that match up too.
I've also been giving To the Slaughter a try in my board. I've been liking it so far, since it has a couple of different applications. I don't find myself with Delirium very often, but being able to remove a Chandra, Flamecaller in response to her +1 was pretty sweet. How do you guys feel about it vs Foul-Tongue Invocation?
Yeah, Bant Coco and W/x humans are the top two decks played in standard. IMO, I don't think they have the same % of favorable matchups Rally did last standard, but right now, its dominating the meta.
Luckily, R/B is built to beat that style deck so yes, I think more removal is a great idea and. If you're going slower, sinister concoction is great. If your playing against aggro humans , I would add more spot removal and sweepers from the sideboard. Take out the transgress. Leave a few duress for declaration and always watching and if you have a good removal draw, by turn 4 or 5, when you're dropping regent and GDD hopefully rebuying a burn/kill spell, you should be good.
To those watching the thread remember, a good matchup is not 90/10 win rate. It's maybe 60-65%. Which means you will still loose to your good matchups.
Foul tongue is good for life gain but against humans, it's horrible since they just sack their worst guy. Against another mid range, it's amazing. Bant company...i would need to test since their guys are replaceable with coco. I feel if we had anger of the gods, we would dominate the meta but alas, koz return will have to do.
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Your ideas and lists are welcome.The most valuable resource is testing results.
Couple of quick ideas to get the ball rolling.
A shell of Heir of Falkenrath-> Olivia->Regent-> Goblin DD -> Chandra/DL Kolaghan. Very mid range. First 3 turns, unless casting the two creatures that slot there would be kill spells and discard spells. Very much like the pre Theros R/B Dragon type list.
Another is the Tom Ross list simply swapping out Phoenix and Kolaghan SF with Heir and Olvia. The remaining Thopter synergies remain(Goblin DD I think would also work well as a 3 of replacing Pia and 1x Thopter Engineer because he can buy back the spells discarded by Heir and Olivia if you had no madness cards in hand).
Olivia into Regent, discarding D Roar into GDD buying back D roar(or any burn or kill spell) is pretty potent and demands immediate answer by opp. Just a few ideas.
I think Sin Prodder has a good chance in the deck since it's going midrange. Goldnight Castigator in the sideboard is a much against controlly matchups where your life total is not threatened early.
The one thing that carried dragons were evasion. I think every creature in a potential list would need evasion of some sort or be so valuble on it's own as to not need it.
Y0u could also try Necromantic Summons. Easier on the mana and allows you to reach into the opponents graveyard too. But you wont be able to either Summons or Ever After with Goblin dark-dwellers. They have to be 3cmc or less
C Long Live Eldrazi C
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Foreboding Ruins
2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
8x Mountain
4x Smoldering Marsh
4x Swamp
Sorcery (7)
3x Duress
2x Read the Bones
2x Ruinous Path
2x Dragonlord Kolaghan
4x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4x Heir of Falkenrath
4x Olivia, Mobilized for War
4x Thunderbreak Regent
Instant (10)
4x Draconic Roar
3x Fiery Temper
3x Kolaghan's Command
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Kozilek's Return
2x Languish
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Rending Volley
3x Transgress the Mind
3x Ultimate Price
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Also, on MD Discard, I think we are in a good spot with MD discard right now. Early you can usually snag a Madness card when people are most likely to tap out early and late you usually find a juicy spell, either way your getting info for 1 mana. Post board Transgress gets really good, especially against control decks. I would however advise against using Kolaghan's Command's Discard mechanic unless they are tapped out, don't want to be giving any free Madness triggers .
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
Flipdipple - Instead of K Command , may want to try 2x Chandra. She can do everything this deck wants. Clear the board, refuel, or push thru the last bits of damage. While I like Heir of Falkenrath, it may be better just to cut her and add more removal/burn. You could also consider threats like Mindrack Demon to give fodder for GDD. Alot of different ways to build the deck.
Definitely let us know your testing results.
I think people are totally underestimating the effect Olivia has in the right deck. Each one of our threats reminds me alot of Abzan where it's basically deal with it the turn it drops or die.
Goldnight Castigator out of the sideboard should have "I am designed to beat ramp and control" written on it. Also replacing ult price with exq firecraft would be nice to cast and then buy back with GDD. That's 8 point of damage to a deck that isn't pressuring your life total.
Mid range typically struggles against ramp and if the other mid range deck is more controlly, it gains that advantage.
2 Burn from Within
2 Roast
4 Draconic Roar
4 Fiery Temper
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Sin Prodder
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Goldnight Castigator
4 Goblin Dark-dwellers
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
A burn heavy list... but it only has 24 lands
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
I think R/B has a great deck in it and your list is very interesting. I like the delirium synergy between walker and mindrack.
The funny thing is R/B anything well built has a good match up against the current two top decks: bant company and w/x humans.
Have you considered goldnight castigator out of the sideboard for controlly matchups?
Yeah, reflector mage is tough against Heir and without GDD, I wouldn't even bother trying her but ditching a spell only to be rebought two turns later is nice, and justifies running the heir.
I think everyone was so burnt by how bad early r/b vampire decks were, they wrote off R/B entirely. The problem is early adopters of the vamps built decks that weren't fast enough to race or big enough to close. R/B vamps are quite good when either super low to the ground or put a few in a r/b shell midrange shell.
Until someone on the pro level discovers this, we'll keep brewing.
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
2 Burn from Within
2 Roast
4 Draconic Roar
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Thopter Engineer
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Goblin Dark-dwellers
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
C Long Live Eldrazi C
The main deck is pretty set at this point. I've considered dropping the singleton Twin Bolt for a 3rd Dragonlord Kolaghan, but that's pretty much the only change I would consider making at this point. Perhaps I'm overlooking something in the manabase, but I can't think of anything new to add. The sideboard is still a work in progress, and will likely become more defined as the format defines itself.
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
Other Spells: 19
4 Duress
4 Draconic Roar
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Twin Bolt
4 Kolaghan's Command
2 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
8 Swamp
8 Mountain
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Fiery Impulse
1 Twin Bolt
1 Ruinous Path
1 Ultimate Price
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
How good has been Kolaghan's command been for you? Examples? Most of us that played R/b dragons last Standard opted out of that card. But we also did not play Goblin Dark-dwellers.
And the Dragonlord. Tell us how it has been for you. Thanks
C Long Live Eldrazi C
First 1-3 turns is focused on sequencing of lands, and disrupting opponents. You want to play your lands out so that you're going into turns 3-4 with lands that don't EtB tapped. You play your hand disruption to look at what your opponent is trying to do. You sequence the next few turns based on that knowledge. You can also play removal as necessary. I'm not usually worried about a 1-2 drop from my opponent, as Draconic Roar and Kolaghan's Command can usually answer those threats effectively. You can also jam down a Hangarback Walker if there is nothing else to do. Lastly, I have Read the Bones to help ensure that I hit my 4th land drop.
Turn 4 usually results in my jamming down Thunderbreak Regent, or the occasional Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I want to take a moment here to say how awesome this card has been. I don't particularly like playing Hangarback Walker without a way to kill him off. Pia and Kiran offer a sac outlet for Artifacts, in addition to giving me three bodies in one card. There is very good synergy here, and I recommend playing Pia and Kiran with Hangarback.
Turn 5 is typically a pivotal turn. Usually at this point I have played some removal, disruption, or preferably Kolaghan's Command. My favorite thing in Standard right now is Goblin Dark-Dwellers into K Command. I'm killing something, making my opponent discard, or bringing back my Hangarback or Thunderbreak from my grave to hand, all while getting a 4/4 Menace. Sometimes I am just replaying Duress or Transgress the Mind, giving me another look at my opponent's hand. I think Goblin Dark-Dwellers is the MVP of the deck, as it can be absolutely backbreaking for my opponent. That is specifically why I maxed out on K Command. I've never found it to be a problem. Even late game, I just bring back the most threatening creature in my grave and hit them for 2, or something. It's very good.
Usually at this point, I've gotten the game wrapped up for the most part. If not, Dragonlord Kolaghan can do some pretty nasty things. Even if the board is stalled, it makes playing more threats easier because your opponent can take 10 damage for anything they play that you've already killed.
On a side note: I'm currently running 6 dragons, and am not sure if that's quite enough. When I had 7, I found that Draconic Roar was hitting for max damage about 80% of the time. I'm not sure where that percentage is at with 6, but it's certainly lower. I do like having Twin Bolt though, as it's a 5th card that can answer Jace on turn 2. So I'm somewhat torn between these two.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
With the amount of exile effects from anguished unmaking, stasis snare, declaration in stone, silkwrap and flicker effects from reflector mage and eldrazi displacer, what are your thoughts on running thopter engineer over hangarback walker? Engineer still gives you an artifact for PKN while being immune to exile unlike hangarback.
Also, perhaps instead of twin bolt you run fiery impulse.
Grasp of Darkness has been outstanding in my BC Eldrazi deck. It hits a lot of creatures out there. A lot.
Probably the most important question to ask of your deck now would be: What were match ups?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I find the CC decks do have some good cards. As you stated, Reflector Mage can be pretty nasty. I haven't seen any running Eldrazi Displacer, but I definitely see why those two cards are strong together. The main thing I found is that their best card advantage is Collected Company, which makes it usually the main target of Duress and Transgress the Mind. Reflector Mage can slow you down, but isn't great against most of our creatures. Thunderbreak Regent deals damage when they target it. Pia and Kiran Nalaar leaves their tokens behind, and produces more Thopters when they eventually come back into play. Goblin Dark-Dwellers lets you cast another spell from your grave. Even Hangarback Walker is flexible enough to fit back into your curve at a reasonable point, and can become bigger in some cases.
Not only that, but this deck has more card advantage built into it. I can slow them down with the disruption, and trade off my creatures for theirs knowing I can get mine back later with Kolaghan's Command. Then there is the part where most of their creatures don't fly, so there is little they can do when we are on the offensive with Dragons and Thopters. The match up has seemed pretty favorable in the games I've played so far.
The RG Ramp decks are pretty good. They play maindeck Kozilek's Return, which doesn't seem so nasty until they cast World Breaker and wipe my board. Their early game doesn't effect me much, so the best route is to try to win as quickly as possible. The best cards against them are Transgress the Mind and Ruinous Path, but I only run two in the main. Even when I bring in the other copies post board, they still usually draw into more threats than I can deal with. This is admittedly one of the toughest match ups.
The Control decks really aren't that bad. As you stated, the white based removal is the scariest thing for me to deal with. I don't like my creatures getting Exiled. It's one of the reasons I run 4 Duress main. Hangarback Walker and Kolaghan's Command don't mind Wrath effects. Descend Upon the Sinful seems really bad for me, but I haven't been seeing people play that card for some reason. A down side is that Draconic Roar is dead outside of hitting Gideon in creature form to deal damage to your opponent. Despite that, this deck produces more pressure than the Control decks can seem to deal with. In most of the games, I eventually grind them out. The match up seems favorable.
Rx Aggro decks can sometimes get there if they have an aggressive hand, and I don't have enough early game cards to interact with them. Slowing them down enough to get into a mid game can bring things into my favor. At that point, the card advantage can really take a game over. Landing a Goblin Dark-Dwellers into most removal spells can do a great job of stabilizing the board. From there you can build up and work out an offensive. Be wary of waiting too long, just in case they are sandbagging burn spells. This match up seems pretty even, if not slightly in my favor.
Tonight I lost against a guy playing a WU Flyers list. Always Watching and Archangel of Tithes was pretty nasty. He also played Archangel Avacyn and Meddling Mage. I'm not sure if he played Dragonlord Ojutai. I didn't see it, but I suggested it to him after the match. I dominated the first game, and felt like I should have won the second game as well. I kept an iffy hand, but it worked out. I just miscounted some damage, and blew myself out with a huge misplay. There was a major flood in game 3, and I just couldn't put any pressure on him. It felt winnable, but it was a good learning experience.
Admittedly, this is from a small sample base of around 40 or so games (roughly 18 matches) while I've developed the deck. I've also been pretty lazy about keeping notes. After playing today, I feel like the deck wants to have more threats. You're kind of echoing that with the Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury statement, so I think I'm going to bring that up to 3. Maybe 4 down the road, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I'm probably fine on burn based removal, and cards like Grasp of Darkness. If anything, I would want to add more hard removal. Ruinous Path has been pretty good.
One thing I will say is that I am looking forward to taking this deck to States this weekend.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Regarding Transgress the mind, thats a nonbo with Dragonlord kolaghan because we want to put cards in the graveyard and not in exile.
Wouldnt you agree?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
DL Kolaghan is in the deck because he's a dragon and a 6/5 flier with haste. Everything else is IMO, just icing. Since creature decks are so popular right now, filling the GY with creatures should not be a problem for a R/B mid range deck of any kind.
Dragonlord Kolaghan is also pretty good, and has synergy with other cards. That's just fine by me.
On a side note: I've been seeing quite a few White Weenie decks running around today. It seems pretty even, and dependent on draws and who plays first. I'm inclined to add more Fiery Impulse to my board. Kozilek's Return is pretty sweet in that match up too.
I've also been giving To the Slaughter a try in my board. I've been liking it so far, since it has a couple of different applications. I don't find myself with Delirium very often, but being able to remove a Chandra, Flamecaller in response to her +1 was pretty sweet. How do you guys feel about it vs Foul-Tongue Invocation?
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Luckily, R/B is built to beat that style deck so yes, I think more removal is a great idea and. If you're going slower, sinister concoction is great. If your playing against aggro humans , I would add more spot removal and sweepers from the sideboard. Take out the transgress. Leave a few duress for declaration and always watching and if you have a good removal draw, by turn 4 or 5, when you're dropping regent and GDD hopefully rebuying a burn/kill spell, you should be good.
To those watching the thread remember, a good matchup is not 90/10 win rate. It's maybe 60-65%. Which means you will still loose to your good matchups.
Foul tongue is good for life gain but against humans, it's horrible since they just sack their worst guy. Against another mid range, it's amazing. Bant company...i would need to test since their guys are replaceable with coco. I feel if we had anger of the gods, we would dominate the meta but alas, koz return will have to do.