sigh... so much menace... It's almost like they want to punish control after it being one of the weakest decks for a while.
This really doesn't hurt control too much. It dies to a sneeze.
Its a card control has to answer though. Most control decks strictly play hard removal aND sweepers so him being a 2 butt is irrelevant so is the ole dies to removal argument.
The card is insane and with all the cards we have in standard now to abuse it makes it all the better
Reveal card, opponent puts it in the graveyard, takes damage. Flash back with Dark Dwellers or Jace (if instant or sorcery), or return to your hand with Den Protector, etc, to cast it anyway.
Use a card with scry to make sure you have the fourth card type you need to enable Delirium, either get it in your hand or have your opponent pitch it for Delirium to kick in.
Don't see this constructed playable. Gives your opponent too much info, below par for P/T ratio, and opponent can lock you out of key cards. Bad punisher mechanic is still bad.
3/2 menace for 3 is pretty good by itself, but getting some free damage or CA is amazing
only thing i'm leery about is the opponent choosing and seeing. If they know you're stumbling on lands or are flooding, they'll force you to draw it/not draw it.
3/2 menace for 3 is pretty good by itself, but getting some free damage or CA is amazing
only thing i'm leery about is the opponent choosing and seeing. If they know you're stumbling on lands or are flooding, they'll force you to draw it/not draw it.
As a key point, you will *never* get lands out of this. It's literally free for them to ship it to the graveyard rather than your hand. Keep in mind that this does *not* replace your draw for the return; it's in addition to it. So them shipping lands is lands you don't have to draw, which is a boon and a curse at the same time, situation depending. Still, it's actually no different than not having the effect at all (And will at other times mean that you are digging closer to your needed lands if you reveal nonlands off of it).
Further, since you typically don't know the contents of your library, there is nothing lost here, even if its a card you probably needed most. Sure, it would have been great to draw it, but you had no clue it was there in the first place. We're dealing with free information here.
So you either get Damage or a Card every upkeep, at your opponent's discretion, on top of having a 3/2 menace on board. It's a free effect, and one that is quite potent in general. Sure, sometimes the damage won't be as relevant as the card, but it's still entirely free damage. And often if they flip a land, that's a land you don't have to draw. Which is often a good thing the longer the game goes on.
People are evaluating this as an aggro card, and frankly it's not at all. It's a grind-based card that shines the longer the game goes on. Aggro typically doesn't want grindy cards at all, particularly one which is on a creature that is easily dealt with post-board (Thunderbreak and Outpost Siege have been the go-to grind cards for red for a reason; they are far more difficult to deal with by opponents who are sideboarding for aggro).
That said, it's not hard, even in standard, to turn this card into an absolutely beast of a creature. Goblin Dark-Dwellers has been mentioned, and Delerium is a thing. Having an instant/sorcery in the graveyard is better than having it in hand if you run Dark-Dwellers; and you're fine if it its in hand as well. This is not a "punisher" type card, at least not a typical one. It's a free effect that happens every turn.
That said, there is one issue which it, and it's that it's a 3/2 for 3. Which is typically poor in constructed. The ability is quite strong, but I'm uncertain whether it's strong enough on turn 3. If it were a 2/1 for 2 I would be all over it. I'm a little less sold at 3 mana.
that's true i didn't think about them auto milling the land.
I still donno. I feel like this is an aggro/aggressive card. imo this card could be like an Achilles heel if you stuck it in a grindy deck if they mill key cards
I understand the point of milling a random card, the milled card is irrelevant because you didn't know it was there/not. This is actually a point i argue when someone says "bruh i would've draw X next turn/you milled Y and that's why i lost."
Idk, i feel like the ability to mill away key cards is too much working against this card for a strategy like that. I feel like his home is a deck where all cards do pretty much the same/similar things
This card is probably passable. It all depends on if a 3/2 can hang in the format. There appear to be fewer 4/4s for 3 running around -- rather a lot of 3/3s and 2/3s -- so it's a possibility.
that's true i didn't think about them auto milling the land.
I still donno. I feel like this is an aggro/aggressive card. imo this card could be like an Achilles heel if you stuck it in a grindy deck if they mill key cards
The fundamental issue with this in a pure aggro deck is that it is not immediately impactful and the body is easily dealt with, particularly post-board. This card is a slow burn type effect, and if you are using it in such a deck you typically won't get much out of the effect at all. Post board, it gets even worse as it's easily removed with the sideboarded cards that will be brought in to deal with aggro decks. Frankly, I'd rather include Reckless Bushwhacker in most red-based aggro decks. It's floor is much higher (Due to haste), while it's ceiling is immediately threatening. Typical cards red brings in to fight in a grind are ones that dodge most sideboard material. Recently this has included Thunderbreak Regeant, Outpost Siege, and Chandra, Pyromaster. For card draw they would rather have immediate gain, with newer tech including Painful Truths and Magmatic Insight. Some include a couple Den Protectors for grinding. Aggro decks that are looking for a grind card are looking for cards that are typically difficult to deal with post-board. This is a grind card that is easily removed with tools that people will be bringing in to fight you.
I understand the point of milling a random card, the milled card is irrelevant because you didn't know it was there/not. This is actually a point i argue when someone says "bruh i would've draw X next turn/you milled Y and that's why i lost."
Idk, i feel like the ability to mill away key cards is too much working against this card for a strategy like that. I feel like his home is a deck where all cards do pretty much the same/similar things
Consider this. Let's say you are stuck on three lands and play this. You reveal a non-land removal spell, they mill it taking 2 damage. You then get closer to drawing land. Equally, they mill a land off the top. You are now one card deeper to your needed spell. They let you draw the card? Best of both worlds. Your opponent isn't affecting your deck at all. That card on top is unknown information until it is revealed. They are just as likely to get you deeper to the card you need as they are to mill away a key card.
If it revealed a card off the bottom of your library it would be virtually the same card, and this argument would be moot. Sometimes you'll see a great card get binned, but that's hardly meaningful. It could easily have been your 6th land or third Fiery Impulse or what have you that you would rather just not draw at that point.
Even still, it's fairly easy to break any "perceived" downside on this in midrange. Kolaghan's Command, Dark-Dwellers, Delirium, and other graveyard oriented effects are incredible cards that work well with the effect, and work to further a grindy strategy.
To be frank, the only thing that has me waffling on this card at all is it's body. It's in an awkward spot where it's not really fast enough for what Aggro wants and it's not really efficient enough for what Midrange or Control wants. It's annoyingly at just the right CMC (Because at 2 CMC for a 2/1 this would be in the same ballpark as Bob in terms of power level). It's just *slightly* too high of a CMC for me to be completely comfortable with, but strong enough that I would be surprised at all if it sees play.
In what way does your opponent lock you out of any cards? This deals damage plus being a 3/2 menace, and you draw normally. To me this is a slightly less powerful goblin rabble-rouser.
In what way does your opponent lock you out of any cards? This deals damage plus being a 3/2 menace, and you draw normally. To me this is a slightly less powerful goblin rabble-rouser.
You cannot be expected to be ahead or pressuring your opponent at all times. How many games have you played where you had a few outs you can draw to get back into a game or end it? If prodder is on the field you are even less likely to draw those outs because your opponent is going to know what you need as well.
I don't see him pulling you back into a game. He is good when you are ahead and on par. Even then it is just ok not game breaking.
How many games have you played where you had a few outs you can draw to get back into a game or end it? If prodder is on the field you are even less likely to draw those outs because your opponent is going to know what you need as well.
That isn't how this works. Having Sin Prodder out makes you no more or less likely to draw the card you need. Drawing your second card from the top gives you the same probability as drawing the first.
How many games have you played where you had a few outs you can draw to get back into a game or end it? If prodder is on the field you are even less likely to draw those outs because your opponent is going to know what you need as well.
That isn't how this works. Having Sin Prodder out makes you no more or less likely to draw the card you need. Drawing your second card from the top gives you the same probability as drawing the first.
No it doesn't because if one gets milled you are less likely to draw the remaining copies in your deck.
How many games have you played where you had a few outs you can draw to get back into a game or end it? If prodder is on the field you are even less likely to draw those outs because your opponent is going to know what you need as well.
That isn't how this works. Having Sin Prodder out makes you no more or less likely to draw the card you need. Drawing your second card from the top gives you the same probability as drawing the first.
No it doesn't because if one gets milled you are less likely to draw the remaining copies in your deck.
however, when you don't reveal your out (which is much more likely) your chances of drawing into the out in the consecutive draws are now increased. this cumulating effect will round the probability to same as it was without a Prodder in play.
I could show you the math but I've done it before and it's a little tiring. Is it enough to say I study mathematics at uni?
Hitting two EoT off a coco is going to be...wait for it...madness.
Card is good. Don't evaluate it like Bob, it's not Bob and not designed to hang out low to the ground and ride out cheap cmc spells to get you CA.
Go ahead and stick my Arlin kord in the bin and take 4, now I'll draw for my turn and continue to play the game and draw my next random card for the turn of which they have zero information. Sure stick my Chandra in the bin so I can't juice up my hand that I've been stock piling off this guy for 3 turns now...and take 6 to the face. Please excuse me while I den protector/megamorph my cards back. Thank you.
I mean if you want a lower cmc value town creature run abbot of keral keep . I'd run this in a coco deck or midrange red deck and not try and grind 1-2 damage hits and top end off him. Menance is really just gravy and he favorable trades with a ton of the formats 3 toughness creatures if he has to get down to business.
Grants not all in the same list, but it's more playable than people are giving it credit for. By all means, keeping trash talking it so I can get them on the cheap...Ty.
Hitting two EoT off a coco is going to be...wait for it...madness.
Card is good. Don't evaluate it like Bob, it's not Bob and not designed to hang out low to the ground and ride out cheap cmc spells to get you CA.
Go ahead and stick my Arlin kord in the bin and take 4, now I'll draw for my turn and continue to play the game and draw my next random card for the turn of which they have zero information. Sure stick my Chandra in the bin so I can't juice up my hand that I've been stock piling off this guy for 3 turns now...and take 6 to the face. Please excuse me while I den protector/megamorph my cards back. Thank you.
I mean if you want a lower cmc value town creature run abbot of keral keep . I'd run this in a coco deck or midrange red deck and not try and grind 1-2 damage hits and top end off him. Menance is really just gravy and he favorable trades with a ton of the formats 3 toughness creatures if he has to get down to business.
I'm not doubting now strong this guy is. First thing is he must stick on the board and that is where I have a problem. Prophetic Flamepeaker was a very powerful card but never stuck on the board. I know not exactly the same but you get my point. If Prodder goes uninterrupted he will run away with a game. That just isn't how magic is played.
Oh and Reflector Mage. I think we are going to see a format dominated by this guy. The tempo swing is too hard when there are very few ETB creatures.
Even ignoring the graveyard interactions, this is a card that wants to be surrounded by spells with high CMC, but discounted ways to cast it, like Madness cards Fiery Temper, Incorrigible Youths, Surge Reckless Bushwhacker, or Dash Warbringer. In modern it can work well with Delve (would you like to give me a Murderous Cut or take 5 damage and give me Delve fuel?) and Fuse Toil // Trouble.
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Can't wait for new standard.
This really doesn't hurt control too much. It dies to a sneeze.
Its a card control has to answer though. Most control decks strictly play hard removal aND sweepers so him being a 2 butt is irrelevant so is the ole dies to removal argument.
The card is insane and with all the cards we have in standard now to abuse it makes it all the better
Youtube Channel
Reveal card, opponent puts it in the graveyard, takes damage. Flash back with Dark Dwellers or Jace (if instant or sorcery), or return to your hand with Den Protector, etc, to cast it anyway.
Use a card with scry to make sure you have the fourth card type you need to enable Delirium, either get it in your hand or have your opponent pitch it for Delirium to kick in.
3/2 menace for 3 is pretty good by itself, but getting some free damage or CA is amazing
only thing i'm leery about is the opponent choosing and seeing. If they know you're stumbling on lands or are flooding, they'll force you to draw it/not draw it.
As a key point, you will *never* get lands out of this. It's literally free for them to ship it to the graveyard rather than your hand. Keep in mind that this does *not* replace your draw for the return; it's in addition to it. So them shipping lands is lands you don't have to draw, which is a boon and a curse at the same time, situation depending. Still, it's actually no different than not having the effect at all (And will at other times mean that you are digging closer to your needed lands if you reveal nonlands off of it).
Further, since you typically don't know the contents of your library, there is nothing lost here, even if its a card you probably needed most. Sure, it would have been great to draw it, but you had no clue it was there in the first place. We're dealing with free information here.
So you either get Damage or a Card every upkeep, at your opponent's discretion, on top of having a 3/2 menace on board. It's a free effect, and one that is quite potent in general. Sure, sometimes the damage won't be as relevant as the card, but it's still entirely free damage. And often if they flip a land, that's a land you don't have to draw. Which is often a good thing the longer the game goes on.
People are evaluating this as an aggro card, and frankly it's not at all. It's a grind-based card that shines the longer the game goes on. Aggro typically doesn't want grindy cards at all, particularly one which is on a creature that is easily dealt with post-board (Thunderbreak and Outpost Siege have been the go-to grind cards for red for a reason; they are far more difficult to deal with by opponents who are sideboarding for aggro).
That said, it's not hard, even in standard, to turn this card into an absolutely beast of a creature. Goblin Dark-Dwellers has been mentioned, and Delerium is a thing. Having an instant/sorcery in the graveyard is better than having it in hand if you run Dark-Dwellers; and you're fine if it its in hand as well. This is not a "punisher" type card, at least not a typical one. It's a free effect that happens every turn.
That said, there is one issue which it, and it's that it's a 3/2 for 3. Which is typically poor in constructed. The ability is quite strong, but I'm uncertain whether it's strong enough on turn 3. If it were a 2/1 for 2 I would be all over it. I'm a little less sold at 3 mana.
I still donno. I feel like this is an aggro/aggressive card. imo this card could be like an Achilles heel if you stuck it in a grindy deck if they mill key cards
I understand the point of milling a random card, the milled card is irrelevant because you didn't know it was there/not. This is actually a point i argue when someone says "bruh i would've draw X next turn/you milled Y and that's why i lost."
Idk, i feel like the ability to mill away key cards is too much working against this card for a strategy like that. I feel like his home is a deck where all cards do pretty much the same/similar things
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Draconic Roar
2x Roast
Creatures: (23)
4x Sylvan Advocate
4x Deathcap Cultivator
4x Deathmist Raptor
4x Sin Prodder
3x Den Protector
4x Thunderbreak Regent
2x Arlinn Kord
2x Sarkhan Unbroken
Lands: (23)
4x Cinder Glade
3x Game Trail
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Lumbering Falls
3x Shivan Reef
2x Forest
3x Mountain
1x Island
This card is probably passable. It all depends on if a 3/2 can hang in the format. There appear to be fewer 4/4s for 3 running around -- rather a lot of 3/3s and 2/3s -- so it's a possibility.
The fundamental issue with this in a pure aggro deck is that it is not immediately impactful and the body is easily dealt with, particularly post-board. This card is a slow burn type effect, and if you are using it in such a deck you typically won't get much out of the effect at all. Post board, it gets even worse as it's easily removed with the sideboarded cards that will be brought in to deal with aggro decks. Frankly, I'd rather include Reckless Bushwhacker in most red-based aggro decks. It's floor is much higher (Due to haste), while it's ceiling is immediately threatening. Typical cards red brings in to fight in a grind are ones that dodge most sideboard material. Recently this has included Thunderbreak Regeant, Outpost Siege, and Chandra, Pyromaster. For card draw they would rather have immediate gain, with newer tech including Painful Truths and Magmatic Insight. Some include a couple Den Protectors for grinding. Aggro decks that are looking for a grind card are looking for cards that are typically difficult to deal with post-board. This is a grind card that is easily removed with tools that people will be bringing in to fight you.
Consider this. Let's say you are stuck on three lands and play this. You reveal a non-land removal spell, they mill it taking 2 damage. You then get closer to drawing land. Equally, they mill a land off the top. You are now one card deeper to your needed spell. They let you draw the card? Best of both worlds. Your opponent isn't affecting your deck at all. That card on top is unknown information until it is revealed. They are just as likely to get you deeper to the card you need as they are to mill away a key card.
If it revealed a card off the bottom of your library it would be virtually the same card, and this argument would be moot. Sometimes you'll see a great card get binned, but that's hardly meaningful. It could easily have been your 6th land or third Fiery Impulse or what have you that you would rather just not draw at that point.
Even still, it's fairly easy to break any "perceived" downside on this in midrange. Kolaghan's Command, Dark-Dwellers, Delirium, and other graveyard oriented effects are incredible cards that work well with the effect, and work to further a grindy strategy.
To be frank, the only thing that has me waffling on this card at all is it's body. It's in an awkward spot where it's not really fast enough for what Aggro wants and it's not really efficient enough for what Midrange or Control wants. It's annoyingly at just the right CMC (Because at 2 CMC for a 2/1 this would be in the same ballpark as Bob in terms of power level). It's just *slightly* too high of a CMC for me to be completely comfortable with, but strong enough that I would be surprised at all if it sees play.
If the format is very slow it will be great, otherwise it will just be the King of Limited Bombs
You cannot be expected to be ahead or pressuring your opponent at all times. How many games have you played where you had a few outs you can draw to get back into a game or end it? If prodder is on the field you are even less likely to draw those outs because your opponent is going to know what you need as well.
I don't see him pulling you back into a game. He is good when you are ahead and on par. Even then it is just ok not game breaking.
That isn't how this works. Having Sin Prodder out makes you no more or less likely to draw the card you need. Drawing your second card from the top gives you the same probability as drawing the first.
No it doesn't because if one gets milled you are less likely to draw the remaining copies in your deck.
however, when you don't reveal your out (which is much more likely) your chances of drawing into the out in the consecutive draws are now increased. this cumulating effect will round the probability to same as it was without a Prodder in play.
I could show you the math but I've done it before and it's a little tiring. Is it enough to say I study mathematics at uni?
Youtube Channel
Card is good. Don't evaluate it like Bob, it's not Bob and not designed to hang out low to the ground and ride out cheap cmc spells to get you CA.
Go ahead and stick my Arlin kord in the bin and take 4, now I'll draw for my turn and continue to play the game and draw my next random card for the turn of which they have zero information. Sure stick my Chandra in the bin so I can't juice up my hand that I've been stock piling off this guy for 3 turns now...and take 6 to the face. Please excuse me while I den protector/megamorph my cards back. Thank you.
I mean if you want a lower cmc value town creature run abbot of keral keep . I'd run this in a coco deck or midrange red deck and not try and grind 1-2 damage hits and top end off him. Menance is really just gravy and he favorable trades with a ton of the formats 3 toughness creatures if he has to get down to business.
Quick fun support suite:
matter reshaper
silverfur partisan
Chandra flamecaller
Arlin kord
firey temper
thunderbreak reagent
avaricious dragon
collected company
greenwarden of murasa
Eldrazi...lol
Grants not all in the same list, but it's more playable than people are giving it credit for. By all means, keeping trash talking it so I can get them on the cheap...Ty.
I'm not doubting now strong this guy is. First thing is he must stick on the board and that is where I have a problem. Prophetic Flamepeaker was a very powerful card but never stuck on the board. I know not exactly the same but you get my point. If Prodder goes uninterrupted he will run away with a game. That just isn't how magic is played.
Oh and Reflector Mage. I think we are going to see a format dominated by this guy. The tempo swing is too hard when there are very few ETB creatures.