Actually, most of the time Cranial doesn't exactly stop T&N from playing stuff, they just have to find a different way/thing to play. The best thing I can think to name with Extraction is indeed Sundering Titan, just because simply
:wierd1:This is what happens most of the time to us :wierd1:
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I don't know about dropping the 3 Reach, if I did that I'd only have Sakura for acceleration. While I agree that Gifts is important, I just cannot see running 4 of them, it is just 1 too many..... I will be removing the revive and replacing it with another visions.
Other cards I am considering for removal due to lack of spots are (only some not all)...
1 Rude Awakening (Really only need one with Gifts + Witness)
1 Viridian Shaman (not sure)
1 Kodama's Reach (less acceleration = bad...)
1 Echoing Truth(I don't think it's the best idea.)
1 Land (I don't really think less than 23 is viable)
Which cards do you guys think could be cut and why? I think 1 Rude Awakening is the best to cut because I can live without 1 more Hinder, plus, with Witness I can recur it (if need be...) Does ANYONE think the deck is ok with only 3 Witness? I've been playing w/friends with just 3 and it seemed to be working out just fine, so I might just..... -1 Awakening, -1 Revive, +1 Visions, +1 something (Hinder/Witness)
:feedback:
I wish the deck had more spots!!!!
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:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Honestly, with TfK, you end up with the same number of cards drawn (and kept) in hand as you do with Gifts, it's just that Thirst costs 1 less, and pitches extra cards you don't need in your hand.
Basically it is because it fetches whatever cards I desire at the time, whether it is win conditions, shackles, counters, land fetch (ummm no), just pretty much what I want when I need it. Not to mention it will go and fetch those cards I sideboarded in, which of course they will pitch but I'll just fetch them right back. Especially if I already have a witness in hand/play. If I have a witness in play then I will get 2 cards of choice, witness, echoing. You could also use the knowledge your opponent gets from seeing what you get to trick him/bluff. Say, he plays a spell, in response you cast gifts getting Leak, Hinder, and either witness / card of choice or 2 cards of choice. Then you simply play a counter you had in your hand, or if you didn't really care about the spell let it resolve.
Of course, I could go through this all day and still get nowhere in proving my point, all in all I think gifts is just a more vesitle card than thirst is.
BTW: Actually, Gifts nabs 1 more card than Thirst does, unless you discard an artifact (which there are 3, so it almost never happens).
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Almost Nine-Tails
2. That's also assuming that you have to discard two, and you don't have an artifact in hand
3. Running Gifts includes running sub-par cards like Revive, and assuming they give you what you want
1. You are right there, Gifts does cost 1 more, but I think that casting it at end of turn makes that a little less painful than it should be.
2. I said that before I stated my example, but also note that the only artifacts I see anymore in most U/G builds is 3 Shackles, so it won't happen all to often.
3. You don't have to run Revive to play Gifts, I've tested both ways and have decided that it performs just as good when you fetch echoing truth in the place of revive. This really screws your opponent over no matter what he gives you, especially if you already have a witness in play or in hand, and testing with 4 witness I've almost always had one (even though I don't need to)
But like a stated before, TFK and GU are different cards that do different things, I just happen to like Gifts better than TFK, its a personal preference, thats all, just like the Hinder vs Condescend "debate" that was going on before.
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1. You are right there, Gifts does cost 1 more, but I think that casting it at end of turn makes that a little less painful than it should be.
You can also cast thirst EOT. and leave more mana open for counters, meloku tokens, or whatever else you have to do EOT - shackles?
Quote from Sacred »
2. I said that before I stated my example, but also note that the only artifacts I see anymore in most U/G builds is 3 Shackles, so it won't happen all to often.
what about Solemn Simulacrum? He's still very good, and a great source of accelleration. i'd try running four for a while, with TfK. just test it out. it's good. Also, Engineered Explosives in the board are artifacts, but admittedly you don't want to pitch them all that often.
I don't run Jen's (I just don't like that guy, i guess it is because it is 1 more mana during my Main Phase), I like Kodama's Reach more because I can go turn 2 Sakura, turn 4 Reach + Mana Leak (or turn 3 Reach + Oxidize) opposed to turn 5 jens + leak or turn 4 oxi + jens. The only artifacts I run are 3 shackles and 3 Explosives (SB), and like you said, just why would I want to pitch a card that's supposed to make my matchup easier to play?
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I don't like Jens either..he doesn't do enough towards what this deck really wants to do(smash with Rude). Reach thins out 2 lands, one of which goes into play, one of which goes to your hand and can be pitched to TfK if you're desperate.
But then, there is no way I would run Gifts..it's just too slow, and it just doesn't ever do anything when your opponent is smart. I know a million people are going to say 'blahblahEternalWitnessblahblah'..but that isn't realistic. You have to have a Witness in hand, because, they ain't gonna give you one if it's one of the 4 cards. Does this mean you might get a Meloku? Yes. Is that the biggest deal in the world? No...Meloku and Shackles are easy to deal with. Obv, casting Gifts to pull Rude, Meloku, Witness Shackles is really nice. On like turn 8. Until then, they just give you an 8 mana card that you can only cast if it will win you the game THAT turn and an artifact that you can't do anything with because you're probably not setup for it yet anyway.
Yes, it is quite sad that Thirst is the best draw in standard.....
I'll have to do some testing to see which I find more effective, Gifts or TFK. Until then, can someone give me a list that uses TFK so I can look at it and see the general ratios? (example like # of win conditions and such, because with the deck I use that has gifts is 2 Meloku 2 Rude, is TFK any different?) you know, stuff like that.
Now that this "scuffle" is over lets all be friends
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The sideboard is a little wierd with the Uyo's in there, but we're having a BIG surgence of BG Control at the moment and being able to Copy an Extraction, take their Extractions, and counter the first Extraction they play against me all at once seems to do the trick. :baby:
How do you find a mere 2 TFK's working out for you? Is it alright with just two? I also noticed the switch of 3 Echoing Truth's to the sideboard (which I was considering, as it doesn't do a WHOLE lot of stuff besides the Witness combo), in favor of 3 Oxidize to the main, have you had good results with that, and how often do you find the 3 oxidize as dead cards in hand?
BTW: Uyo is a "pet" card of mine, I use it at school from time to time, she is indeed a good card. With some of the U/G players splashing black for extraction, as well as (I think it was mono-G?, and maybe kiki-jiki?) I was wondering if perhaps Uyo could be of some tourny cailber use, but would you put it in SB in a more mysterious metagame, say regionals perhaps?
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Almost Nine-Tails
Heh, Butte Blues' maindeck is almost identicle to mine, Although I'm trying Beacon of Creation over Rude Awakening, to mixed results. Anyways to answer Sacreds questions. 2 TfKs work fine, esp with Serum Visions. The 3 oxidizes typically have at least SOMETHING to blow up, Vedalken Shackles or Jens or something. On the rare occasion when it has nothing at all to kill, you can always dump it to a TfK. Personally I vastly prefer the Oxidizes...
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
actually, it looks pretty good. just one thing though: is 4 win conditions enough? you might want to add in a Rude Awakening somewhere, but it looks really good
*highlights and presses control+C*
edit: looking through a little more thoroughly, i'm starting to doubt the lack of echoing truths in the main...
It got me to a finals split at my local tourney:
Round One: Tooth
Game 1: Him: turn one boseiju.
Me: turn 3 boseiju, nuke yours.
Him: [/cries]
Me: Rude for the win
Game 2: Plow under like 8 times with witness/echoing truth, then drop meloku. He tries to get a tooth through, I hinder it.
Round two: Tooth
Game 1: No counters for me!! he resolves tooth for the win.
Game 2: No plows for me!! he scries for boseiju and resolves tooth for the win.
Round 3: Kiki Jiki.dec:
Game one: meloku, win.
Game two: ascetic, ascetic, ascetic, Rude.
Round 4: Affinity: (YESSSSSSSSSSS)
Game one: randomly lose against turn three hoverguard/plating drop
Game two: oxidize, explosives, shaman, shaman oxidize, oxidize. (Turn 6, he has nothing in play.)
Game three: explosives, explosives, shaman, oxidize, slug ( I was playing these instead of marches cause I dont have em).
3-1-0
Top 4: Same tooth as Round two:
game 1: resolves tooth for the win
Game 2: Plow, witness, Meloku, plow, Witness, plow, truth *concede*
Game 3: Early meloku, he resolves tooth with help from boseiju, goes for trixy vamp (correct play, I was completely untapped, couldve swung for the win with meloku), game stalls, I plow, witness, plow, troll, troll, bounce meph vamp, rude for the win.
i strongly feel that echoing truths are needed in the main. they ARE good against every deck, whether it's bouncing meloku tokens, kokushus, or myr enforcers. Echoing truth has saved my life many times during game one. i'd suggest -1 oxidize, -1 land, +2 echoing truth. I don't know that we need 23 land. it seems too much, from the little testing i've done since you posted your list. Also, 4 art hate is enough, at least in my metagame. Echoing truth really are needed, and SHOULD be included.
I realize that shackles is quite good, but I find it very vulnerable...artifacts in the current environment, to me, is a no. Also, I don't have enough land search to make it effective...with only 4 elders, I cant make good use of them.
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Why?
Cranial is an attempt to answer the deck, while really, just slowing them down a turn or two.
Blood Moon however, solves the mana superiority they gain from the Urzatron and slows them down at the same time.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
Actually, most of the time Cranial doesn't exactly stop T&N from playing stuff, they just have to find a different way/thing to play. The best thing I can think to name with Extraction is indeed Sundering Titan, just because simply
:wierd1:This is what happens most of the time to us :wierd1:
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
Other cards I am considering for removal due to lack of spots are (only some not all)...
1 Rude Awakening (Really only need one with Gifts + Witness)
1 Viridian Shaman (not sure)
1 Kodama's Reach (less acceleration = bad...)
1 Echoing Truth(I don't think it's the best idea.)
1 Land (I don't really think less than 23 is viable)
Which cards do you guys think could be cut and why? I think 1 Rude Awakening is the best to cut because I can live without 1 more Hinder, plus, with Witness I can recur it (if need be...) Does ANYONE think the deck is ok with only 3 Witness? I've been playing w/friends with just 3 and it seemed to be working out just fine, so I might just..... -1 Awakening, -1 Revive, +1 Visions, +1 something (Hinder/Witness)
:feedback:
I wish the deck had more spots!!!!
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
I don't use it as there's no real advantage to running it over TfK/Serum Visions.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
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EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
Honestly, with TfK, you end up with the same number of cards drawn (and kept) in hand as you do with Gifts, it's just that Thirst costs 1 less, and pitches extra cards you don't need in your hand.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
Of course, I could go through this all day and still get nowhere in proving my point, all in all I think gifts is just a more vesitle card than thirst is.
BTW: Actually, Gifts nabs 1 more card than Thirst does, unless you discard an artifact (which there are 3, so it almost never happens).
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
Gifts puts 2 cards in your hand, and 2 in the yard.
TfK puts 3 cards in your hand, and then you discard 1-2 of those.
Overall, TfK is just better.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
Gifts
1. Cast gifts, 4 cards in hand
2. opponent chooses 2, discard those, put others in hand
3. 6 cards in hand
TFK
1. Cask TFK, 4 cards in hand
2. Draw 3, 7 cards in hand
3. Discard 2, 5 cards in hand
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
2. That's also assuming that you have to discard two, and you don't have an artifact in hand
3. Running Gifts includes running sub-par cards like Revive, and assuming they give you what you want
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
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Land 20
10x island
10x forest
Creatures 13
4x sakura-tribe elder
4x eternal witness
3x viridian shaman
2x keiga
Spells 21
2x condescend
2x hinder
3x thoughtcast
3x mana leak
3x echoing truth
3x bribery
2x rude awakening
3x kodamas reach
Artifacts 6
2x oblivion stone
4x chrome mox
Sideboard 15
1 keiga
2 thoughbind
3 oxidize
3 naturalize
2 oblivion stone
3 chalice of the void
1 boseiju
The definition of Self realization, The final words of socrates come to mind "I drank what?"
New Venture Brothers Episodes Leaked!!!
1. You are right there, Gifts does cost 1 more, but I think that casting it at end of turn makes that a little less painful than it should be.
2. I said that before I stated my example, but also note that the only artifacts I see anymore in most U/G builds is 3 Shackles, so it won't happen all to often.
3. You don't have to run Revive to play Gifts, I've tested both ways and have decided that it performs just as good when you fetch echoing truth in the place of revive. This really screws your opponent over no matter what he gives you, especially if you already have a witness in play or in hand, and testing with 4 witness I've almost always had one (even though I don't need to)
But like a stated before, TFK and GU are different cards that do different things, I just happen to like Gifts better than TFK, its a personal preference, thats all, just like the Hinder vs Condescend "debate" that was going on before.
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
You can also cast thirst EOT. and leave more mana open for counters, meloku tokens, or whatever else you have to do EOT - shackles?
what about Solemn Simulacrum? He's still very good, and a great source of accelleration. i'd try running four for a while, with TfK. just test it out. it's good. Also, Engineered Explosives in the board are artifacts, but admittedly you don't want to pitch them all that often.
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
But then, there is no way I would run Gifts..it's just too slow, and it just doesn't ever do anything when your opponent is smart. I know a million people are going to say 'blahblahEternalWitnessblahblah'..but that isn't realistic. You have to have a Witness in hand, because, they ain't gonna give you one if it's one of the 4 cards. Does this mean you might get a Meloku? Yes. Is that the biggest deal in the world? No...Meloku and Shackles are easy to deal with. Obv, casting Gifts to pull Rude, Meloku, Witness Shackles is really nice. On like turn 8. Until then, they just give you an 8 mana card that you can only cast if it will win you the game THAT turn and an artifact that you can't do anything with because you're probably not setup for it yet anyway.
Thank you for sealing the deal about Gifts Ungiven, Cyan... I can't believe an argument went on for this long about it :confused2:...
Not to mention, Thirst for Knowledge is the best draw in Type 2 right now, as sad as it is.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
I'll have to do some testing to see which I find more effective, Gifts or TFK. Until then, can someone give me a list that uses TFK so I can look at it and see the general ratios? (example like # of win conditions and such, because with the deck I use that has gifts is 2 Meloku 2 Rude, is TFK any different?) you know, stuff like that.
Now that this "scuffle" is over lets all be friends
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
10 Island
1 Mountain
1 Okina, temple to the Grandfather
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kodama' Reach
4 Mana Leak
4 Hinder
3 Serum Visions
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Viridian Shaman
3 Oxidize
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
2 Rude Awakening
3 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth
2 Viridian Shaman
1 Oxidize
3 March of the Machines (May change to Engineered Explosives)
2 Uyo, Silent Prophet
1 Rude Awakening
The sideboard is a little wierd with the Uyo's in there, but we're having a BIG surgence of BG Control at the moment and being able to Copy an Extraction, take their Extractions, and counter the first Extraction they play against me all at once seems to do the trick. :baby:
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
BTW: Uyo is a "pet" card of mine, I use it at school from time to time, she is indeed a good card. With some of the U/G players splashing black for extraction, as well as (I think it was mono-G?, and maybe kiki-jiki?) I was wondering if perhaps Uyo could be of some tourny cailber use, but would you put it in SB in a more mysterious metagame, say regionals perhaps?
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
Mafia Stats
No worries, be happy
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
*highlights and presses control+C*
edit: looking through a little more thoroughly, i'm starting to doubt the lack of echoing truths in the main...
-=Creatures=-
4 Eternal Witness
2 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Viridian Shaman
-=Spells=-
4 Echoing Truth
4 Hinder
4 Mana Leak
4 Oxidize
2 Rude Awakening
4 Serum Visions
-=Lands=-
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
9 Forest
11 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
-=Sideboard=-
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Plow Under
3 March of the Machines
Boarding:
-=Affinity=-
-3 Leak
-4 Hinder
+4 EE
+3 March of the Machines
-=Tooth=-
-4 Shaman
-4 Oxidize
+4 Plow Under
+4 Troll Ascetic
-=UG=-
-4 Shaman
-4 Oxidize
+4 Plow
+4 Ascetic
-=BG=-
-4 Shaman
-4 Oxidize
+4 Plow
+4 Ascetic
-=Ponza=-
-4 Shaman
-4 Oxidize
+4 Plow
+4 Ascetic
It got me to a finals split at my local tourney:
Round One: Tooth
Game 1: Him: turn one boseiju.
Me: turn 3 boseiju, nuke yours.
Him: [/cries]
Me: Rude for the win
Game 2: Plow under like 8 times with witness/echoing truth, then drop meloku. He tries to get a tooth through, I hinder it.
Round two: Tooth
Game 1: No counters for me!! he resolves tooth for the win.
Game 2: No plows for me!! he scries for boseiju and resolves tooth for the win.
Round 3: Kiki Jiki.dec:
Game one: meloku, win.
Game two: ascetic, ascetic, ascetic, Rude.
Round 4: Affinity: (YESSSSSSSSSSS)
Game one: randomly lose against turn three hoverguard/plating drop
Game two: oxidize, explosives, shaman, shaman oxidize, oxidize. (Turn 6, he has nothing in play.)
Game three: explosives, explosives, shaman, oxidize, slug ( I was playing these instead of marches cause I dont have em).
3-1-0
Top 4: Same tooth as Round two:
game 1: resolves tooth for the win
Game 2: Plow, witness, Meloku, plow, Witness, plow, truth *concede*
Game 3: Early meloku, he resolves tooth with help from boseiju, goes for trixy vamp (correct play, I was completely untapped, couldve swung for the win with meloku), game stalls, I plow, witness, plow, troll, troll, bounce meph vamp, rude for the win.
*PHIEW*
anyways, please give all suggestions.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
@pol:you need shackles.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control