As I agree hinder is by far the best counter in t2. However I think Im going to have to say that I would rather play mana leak than condescend. Early game mana leak is essentially a hard counter, pretty much until your opponent hits 4-5 land, theoretically you could now counter any casted spell for there next 3 plays after our turn 2. Cobdescend, while it has scry, can be played around. This doesnt have the capabilites to counter early threats, not reaching the same parameters of mana leak until turn 4, without accel.
I think if anything condescend belonged in the sb to fight Tooth's early land tutors, which for arguments sake is pretty much acceleration. Quash is strictly better right now, and belongs in the sb. It gets rid of alot of good stuff like rudes, death cloud,cranial extraction, kodama's reach etc etc.
Molder slug is a interesting variable, and should be consider as such; if you see alot of U/G or B/G than Slug is a viable selection. However, if you find yourself surrounded my arcbound ravagers, cranial platings, and disciple of the vaults I would tend to lean toward running vedalken shackles.
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
With the way games are focused on the early portion in this environment, Mana Leak is an essential card. When it comes turn 3 after I've sacced an STE, playing a second one with Mana Leak as a backup for anything the opponent plays than I would want to keep all of my lands untapped so I can have a sure-fire counter with Condescend.
In the late game, yes, Condescend is 1000 times better. But the important part of the game is the early part. And that's Mana Leak simply has to be run.
And Blood Moon is far from 'straining' the manabase... It's 1 Mountain replacing an Island... No strain there.
Molder Slug isn't any good against Affinity, and if you really want a beater against control, I'd suggest Karstoderm.
actually molder slug is pretty good vs ravager. But it has bad synergy with v-shackles, worse synergy with countermagic, and makes having an answer to DOTV all the more imperative. I'd reccomend staying away, even in versions without shackles.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
I suppose slug is solid if you are playing U/G because you should be able to deal with plated fliers with the multitude of resusable hate we have along with the ability to make illusion tokens. This, like HKKID said, still presents an issue with Disciple of the Vault (which was one of the main reasons I started to run shackles). I dont think you play this guy but I guess its preferential.
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In IBTG we trust
Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
Here is the build I have played the last couple of days on MWS (I usually change it once a day at least, just for ideas. But this has been pretty solid so far).
Notes: I use to maindeck the V.Shammies but I keep switching between those and the Wear Aways. Lately I have been seeing a lot of Shrine-Obliverate decks and other Multi-color Shrine decks and they are nice to take out, even though I only have 2 of them in the deck.
I know a lot of people, if they do use Bribery are using it in their SB but I found it way to good to wait for second/third game to use. Being able to get some land boosts (2nd turn, STE, 3rd K-Reach), I can pull out Bribery and get a key card. And then hopefully I will have shackles in my hand or soon and control anything else instead of killing it.
Of course I have Quash/Splinter to get rid of key cards from game. We have Quash for anything (noteable cards are Cranial Extraction, Death Cloud from Black) and Splinter for Raffinity decks.
And as discussed earlier in this thread, Blood Moon can really screw over a lot of Teir decks (mostly Tooth & Nail, and I have yet to play but I assume Raffinity. Seeing as how they can't get the Vault out? Save me some time before I get owned.)
I've only played Raffinity a few times with this deck so I can't say too much about it, but the record overall is very good. I rarely get beat. Sometimes turn 7 wins, sometimes as long as turn 12 (my turn I mean).
Overall key cards to win the game: Rude, Meloku, Bribery, Shackles. I tried to expand it from just the traditional Rude and Meloku. Damn Cranial Extractions :grin2:
Okay, please decipher my horrible grammer and post some replies
Later - Erik
I don't think the deck needs Molder Slug. We have enough artifact hate between Oxidize and Shaman, and the next best spell would be Tel-Jilad Justice, not Molder Slug. As a beater, Meloku is better (due to the ability to make HOARDS of creatures against Affinity). I see Molder Slug as being too slow to make a difference in the Affinity matchup, but, rather is a "win more" card after you have used Oxidize and Shaman to clear the board, and Mana Leak to take care of killer spells.
As an aside, I just opened 2 foil Ninja of the Deep Hours from my BoK boxes. And a foil Shining shoal. Go me.
Edit: Nevermind Tel-Jilad Justice, 3rd best Affinity hate card is March of the Machines.
I would not run splinter at all....they just sack whatever you target in response, and you've wasted your mana. Also, it seems like your affinity match is pretty bad...in game 1, you have 7 hate cards, (with shackles) and I really dont think that's enough...you're really just forfeitting game 1.
Molder Slug 3GG
Creature - Beast
4/6
During each player's upkeep, that player sacrifices an artifact.
That may or may not be exact, remembering it off the top of my head. And, yeah, Splinter is pretty bad against Affinity. 4 mana to take out 1 artifact? Pass.
The only other thing I don't like about your build, Erikku, is the Divining Tops. We play blue, we have access to card draw, no need for Top.
Oh yeah, I was being a lamer is put those in just in case. Took'em out earlier and it works just fine (well, 2 card slots open).
In other news, plopping the Plow Unders back in. With Shrine Obliverate gaining more popularity, it is a key card. Gets pretty ugly when you have your E-Witnesses and keep bringing it back until you get Rude
I'll post another [smarter] version soon. In the mean time, I gotta find those darn Raffinity players.
EDIT: SO yeah.. just ignore my stupid deck above. It must've just been lucky, heh.
Here's my current list. You can use it, modify it, or throw it away (depending on what you think after playing with it :p)...
Oh, and I wouldn't be so focused on Shrine-Obliterate as it isn't exactly the greatest of decks... Shrine are very "meh" and Obliterate is easy to stop by holding your counters for their kill cards.
I really don't know that Ninja of the Deep Hours belongs in UG control. Yeah it's a great card, but are you really going to be ninjitsuing just for the card draw? The point of UG control is to control, not to beat. I would put in another Serum Visions and condescends in place of NDH. I also don't understand the 1 red land main for blood moon. I would put the mountain and Oxidize in the side and bring in 3 quashes.
Remeber the point of UG control is to control until you get your win condition, be it Meloku, Rude, or even dropping a Keiga.
I attack w/witness. You don't block, I ninjitsu Deep Hours into play and bounce witness. That there be some card advantage. That would be my purpose for running the ninja. Other than that, it is better to control mostly. I have not yet tested the ninja trick so I have no idea if it is even good for the deck.
I have heard a lot of people debate Serum Visions over Thirst for Knowledge and vice versa. I am not sure which is actually better. The way I look at it, Thirst costs 3 and nets 0-1 cards depending on what you discard. Serum Visions, while only a sorcery, only costs 1 and always draws one. Thirst digs 3 cards deep, while Serum digs 1-3 cards total. By this comparison, I would probably use Serum Visions over Thirst. Is there anyone who can explain why I would want to do it the other way?
Well we need to sit down and think of what we would target with witnesses ability, and at what point of the game we would do that.
I would personally use my witness turn 4 or 5 (leaving 2 mana open) getting a counter spell, serum visions, or tribal elder, depending on the state of the game.
I think that the ninja/witness combo in a UG control deck would have to come in the middle to late game, when you should be focusing on countering your opponent and finding your win condition.
It would seem to me that this sort of combo would be better suited in a more aggro style of deck.
My meta's kind of random, I see Kiki-Alarm and Vernal Tooth (Hence Naturalize), plus a LOT of Raffinity and Ironworks. What do you guys think? Questions about card choices?
I really like the ninja, so I play 3, but then again, I would play him even if he really didnt fit the deck at all. After hearing what Tyraziel has to say I am thinking about taking him out, but I like him right now. He just has such good card advantage potential, but sometimes he sits in your hand while you just win with Meloku.
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Formerly corn hulio.
Hopefully i will have a swelling of pride sometime soon..........
If you dont get that, look at my username, and if you still dont get it, than your to young to have an account on here without your parents permission, YOU ARE A BAD LITTLE CHILD!!!!
No one in their right mind would let a witness through unblocked playing against U/G, not since the Ninja is being played in the deck. No one. Affinity wouldn't do it with Viridian Shaman either. The only creatures you can hope to use Ninjutsu on are STE, Meloku, or an illusion token. If your opponent lets you attack with an unblocked Witness, then you are playing bad players.
For what it's worth, I've warmed up to the Ninja a little. I still don't think he is the best choice for this deck, but, I think he will find a home somewhere.
This deck is starved for draw (hence the debate Serum vs. Thirst, Mark - we're desperate. I don't much care for TfK, though). I will continue testing the niphidian.
Well you have to remember some decks don't play many creatures, or we've been bouncing/countering them all. Thats when I get the ninjas to work when I use'em. Otherwise unless they know that a lot of newwer U/G decks are playing ninjas or they saw my hand, they don't know what is coming.
Bringing them back in my test deck~
I've been playing with the Ninphidian since the BoK prerelease, and I can't thing of one bad thing to say against him. Is he a mediocre card against decks like Ravager that have billions of blockers? Yep. Is he a bomb that can swing the game with his card advantage against the mirror and BG? You better believe it.
I play Serum Visions because it makes a turn 2 STE almost garaunteed. Not to mention, TfK is terrible without Shackles.
Engineered Explosives is in the sideboard because it isn't actually too bad against the Ravager decks around, and even against some of the other stuff you see... :p... Honestly.
The Mountain is in the main because: 1) It doesn't hurt the manabase at all, and; 2) It would be a waste of room in the board.
And Sbing Oxidizes is, as has been said by HKKID once upon a time, "... like skydiving and seeing who can hit the ground hardest." Not too bright.
Witness tricks, while a big plus for the Ninja, aren't the only reason... Late game draws like STE are something normally wasted... But with the Ninja, they become CA... Afterall, who wants to block a 1/1? Occasionally, someone, but more often than not, they'll ignore it unless they can kill it without going out of their way.
I actually like ninja against affinity...I mean sure, it's not great, but it's fine. They will never block...they dont care what you do. and then you hit them for two, draw a card, and kill an artifact (this is with shaman) all for five mana...and you can block with the shaman. thats fine by me...
hehehe... I did say that too. Although it was about some clown who was trying to churn out a turn 3 obliterate :p.
Ravyn: Why are you running Crystal Shard and not Vedalken Shackles? I can undestand getting rid of the bondage equipment, if everyone elses anti-ravager suite was spanking you, but to turn around and use Crystal Shard, just makes no sense at all to me...
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
Before I go to bed, I was playing in MWS for a few hours and enchants were everywhere today. Good lord, couldn't get them off the board. I switched my Oxidizes for Naturalizes and it was all good Usually... Damn tooth and nail beating me with Blood moon out still.... *grumble*
Close game nonetheless. Having blood moon out and then Plow Under'ing his forests were pretty funny though...
No one in their right mind would let a witness through unblocked playing against U/G, not since the Ninja is being played in the deck. No one. Affinity wouldn't do it with Viridian Shaman either. The only creatures you can hope to use Ninjutsu on are STE, Meloku, or an illusion token. If your opponent lets you attack with an unblocked Witness, then you are playing bad players.
For what it's worth, I've warmed up to the Ninja a little. I still don't think he is the best choice for this deck, but, I think he will find a home somewhere.
It would be best abused with a witness. I should have clarified it a bit. It definitely should work well with STE, Shaman, and Meloku + gang. You make a good point about the unblocked witness though. Although, if there were no defenses.... imagining the possibilities.
Back to TfK vs. Visions. I will try both as soon as I begin testing.
Now, I have a few questions for all y'all geniuses out there as I have not played this arch since MBC season.
Is Sensei's Top any good in this deck?
Should I run Jen's, Reach, or both?
Should I run Shackles, and if so, how many?
Does anyone think it is a good idea to splash black for extraction (and possible engineered explosives)?
Should I mainboard a Boseiju or should I put 1 in the side or should I just not worry about it?
I am currently trying to work out a good build of this deck. It is becoming slightly frustrating because there are too many options than what you could actually run. If you are trying to help by answering any of the above questions, Thank you. I would also greatly appreciate as detailed an explanation as possible.
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Condescend = needed
Mana Leak = optional
Either your going 8 counters or more, but when you get that controlling, your loosing a lot of useful card space. At most, I'd go 10.
Also, whats the deal with Molder Slug? Is it in again or is it out again?
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YOURS MAY BE NEXT
I think if anything condescend belonged in the sb to fight Tooth's early land tutors, which for arguments sake is pretty much acceleration. Quash is strictly better right now, and belongs in the sb. It gets rid of alot of good stuff like rudes, death cloud,cranial extraction, kodama's reach etc etc.
Molder slug is a interesting variable, and should be consider as such; if you see alot of U/G or B/G than Slug is a viable selection. However, if you find yourself surrounded my arcbound ravagers, cranial platings, and disciple of the vaults I would tend to lean toward running vedalken shackles.
Anon - control RGW
In the late game, yes, Condescend is 1000 times better. But the important part of the game is the early part. And that's Mana Leak simply has to be run.
And Blood Moon is far from 'straining' the manabase... It's 1 Mountain replacing an Island... No strain there.
Molder Slug isn't any good against Affinity, and if you really want a beater against control, I'd suggest Karstoderm.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
Mafia Stats
Anon - control RGW
U/G Control : A Forest in the Ocean
LAND [22]
12 Forest
10 Island
CREATURES [10]
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
NON-CREATURE SPELLS [28]
2 Rude Awakening
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Bribery
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Wear Away
3 Oxidize
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Echoing Truth
4 Mana Leak
4 Hinder
SIDEBOARD [15]
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Quash
2 March of the Machines
2 Splinter
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Blood Moon
2 Mountain
Notes: I use to maindeck the V.Shammies but I keep switching between those and the Wear Aways. Lately I have been seeing a lot of Shrine-Obliverate decks and other Multi-color Shrine decks and they are nice to take out, even though I only have 2 of them in the deck.
I know a lot of people, if they do use Bribery are using it in their SB but I found it way to good to wait for second/third game to use. Being able to get some land boosts (2nd turn, STE, 3rd K-Reach), I can pull out Bribery and get a key card. And then hopefully I will have shackles in my hand or soon and control anything else instead of killing it.
Of course I have Quash/Splinter to get rid of key cards from game. We have Quash for anything (noteable cards are Cranial Extraction, Death Cloud from Black) and Splinter for Raffinity decks.
And as discussed earlier in this thread, Blood Moon can really screw over a lot of Teir decks (mostly Tooth & Nail, and I have yet to play but I assume Raffinity. Seeing as how they can't get the Vault out? Save me some time before I get owned.)
I've only played Raffinity a few times with this deck so I can't say too much about it, but the record overall is very good. I rarely get beat. Sometimes turn 7 wins, sometimes as long as turn 12 (my turn I mean).
Overall key cards to win the game: Rude, Meloku, Bribery, Shackles. I tried to expand it from just the traditional Rude and Meloku. Damn Cranial Extractions :grin2:
Okay, please decipher my horrible grammer and post some replies
Later - Erik
Currently Playing:
*** Under Construction***
As an aside, I just opened 2 foil Ninja of the Deep Hours from my BoK boxes. And a foil Shining shoal. Go me.
Edit: Nevermind Tel-Jilad Justice, 3rd best Affinity hate card is March of the Machines.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
And don't flame me for asking this, as I just got back into Magic... but what is Molder Slug?
Currently Playing:
*** Under Construction***
Creature - Beast
4/6
During each player's upkeep, that player sacrifices an artifact.
That may or may not be exact, remembering it off the top of my head. And, yeah, Splinter is pretty bad against Affinity. 4 mana to take out 1 artifact? Pass.
The only other thing I don't like about your build, Erikku, is the Divining Tops. We play blue, we have access to card draw, no need for Top.
In other news, plopping the Plow Unders back in. With Shrine Obliverate gaining more popularity, it is a key card. Gets pretty ugly when you have your E-Witnesses and keep bringing it back until you get Rude
I'll post another [smarter] version soon. In the mean time, I gotta find those darn Raffinity players.
EDIT: SO yeah.. just ignore my stupid deck above. It must've just been lucky, heh.
Currently Playing:
*** Under Construction***
Here's my current list. You can use it, modify it, or throw it away (depending on what you think after playing with it :p)...
Oh, and I wouldn't be so focused on Shrine-Obliterate as it isn't exactly the greatest of decks... Shrine are very "meh" and Obliterate is easy to stop by holding your counters for their kill cards.
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Remeber the point of UG control is to control until you get your win condition, be it Meloku, Rude, or even dropping a Keiga.
Tyraziel
Format:
Type 2 Constructed
Current Decks:
:symu::symg: Control
Rats
Ravager Affinity
010100000110111101110100011011110111101001101110011010010110000101101011
I have heard a lot of people debate Serum Visions over Thirst for Knowledge and vice versa. I am not sure which is actually better. The way I look at it, Thirst costs 3 and nets 0-1 cards depending on what you discard. Serum Visions, while only a sorcery, only costs 1 and always draws one. Thirst digs 3 cards deep, while Serum digs 1-3 cards total. By this comparison, I would probably use Serum Visions over Thirst. Is there anyone who can explain why I would want to do it the other way?
I would personally use my witness turn 4 or 5 (leaving 2 mana open) getting a counter spell, serum visions, or tribal elder, depending on the state of the game.
I think that the ninja/witness combo in a UG control deck would have to come in the middle to late game, when you should be focusing on countering your opponent and finding your win condition.
It would seem to me that this sort of combo would be better suited in a more aggro style of deck.
Just my thoughts.
Tyraziel
Format:
Type 2 Constructed
Current Decks:
:symu::symg: Control
Rats
Ravager Affinity
010100000110111101110100011011110111101001101110011010010110000101101011
11x Island
1x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4x Eternal Witness
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Viridian Shaman
2x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3x Hinder
3x Crystal Shard
3x Echoing Truth
3x Kodama's Reach
4x Serum Visions
2x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Rude Awakening
Sideboard:
3x Oxidize
3x March of the Machines
3x Vedalken Shackles
2x Engineered Explosives
My meta's kind of random, I see Kiki-Alarm and Vernal Tooth (Hence Naturalize), plus a LOT of Raffinity and Ironworks. What do you guys think? Questions about card choices?
Hopefully i will have a swelling of pride sometime soon..........
If you dont get that, look at my username, and if you still dont get it, than your to young to have an account on here without your parents permission, YOU ARE A BAD LITTLE CHILD!!!!
No one in their right mind would let a witness through unblocked playing against U/G, not since the Ninja is being played in the deck. No one. Affinity wouldn't do it with Viridian Shaman either. The only creatures you can hope to use Ninjutsu on are STE, Meloku, or an illusion token. If your opponent lets you attack with an unblocked Witness, then you are playing bad players.
For what it's worth, I've warmed up to the Ninja a little. I still don't think he is the best choice for this deck, but, I think he will find a home somewhere.
Bringing them back in my test deck~
Currently Playing:
*** Under Construction***
I play Serum Visions because it makes a turn 2 STE almost garaunteed. Not to mention, TfK is terrible without Shackles.
Engineered Explosives is in the sideboard because it isn't actually too bad against the Ravager decks around, and even against some of the other stuff you see... :p... Honestly.
The Mountain is in the main because: 1) It doesn't hurt the manabase at all, and; 2) It would be a waste of room in the board.
And Sbing Oxidizes is, as has been said by HKKID once upon a time, "... like skydiving and seeing who can hit the ground hardest." Not too bright.
Witness tricks, while a big plus for the Ninja, aren't the only reason... Late game draws like STE are something normally wasted... But with the Ninja, they become CA... Afterall, who wants to block a 1/1? Occasionally, someone, but more often than not, they'll ignore it unless they can kill it without going out of their way.
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-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
Ravyn: Why are you running Crystal Shard and not Vedalken Shackles? I can undestand getting rid of the bondage equipment, if everyone elses anti-ravager suite was spanking you, but to turn around and use Crystal Shard, just makes no sense at all to me...
Mafia Stats
Close game nonetheless. Having blood moon out and then Plow Under'ing his forests were pretty funny though...
Currently Playing:
*** Under Construction***
It would be best abused with a witness. I should have clarified it a bit. It definitely should work well with STE, Shaman, and Meloku + gang. You make a good point about the unblocked witness though. Although, if there were no defenses.... imagining the possibilities.
Back to TfK vs. Visions. I will try both as soon as I begin testing.
Now, I have a few questions for all y'all geniuses out there as I have not played this arch since MBC season.
Is Sensei's Top any good in this deck?
Should I run Jen's, Reach, or both?
Should I run Shackles, and if so, how many?
Does anyone think it is a good idea to splash black for extraction (and possible engineered explosives)?
Should I mainboard a Boseiju or should I put 1 in the side or should I just not worry about it?
I am currently trying to work out a good build of this deck. It is becoming slightly frustrating because there are too many options than what you could actually run. If you are trying to help by answering any of the above questions, Thank you. I would also greatly appreciate as detailed an explanation as possible.