4 mana leak
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kodama's Reach
3 Viridian Shaman
3 Oxidize
2 Echoing Truth
2 Rude Awakening
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Eternal witness
4 Serum Visions
1 O. Stone
1 Azusa
3 Meloku
1 Minamo
9 island
12 forest
SB
1 E. Truth
2 hinder
1 plow under
1 Uyo
2 Aquire
3 Motm
1 Shaman
1 Oxidize
3 Naturalize
This is not the perfect list. Some changes I might make are: -1 azusa -1 O. Stone -1 meloku +3 Shackles, -1 forest +1 mountain. -2 SB aquire +2 SB Blood moon.
Gifts Ungiven is a great card for me, and I love it. Shackles would help this deck quite a bit, and Blood moon helps one of our worse matchups, Tooth and Nail. I also need more plow unders, IMHO. Any other thoughts on UG in t2?
as well, the last SB may want to be Blood Moon. At News, it was discusseed and found that putting 1 mountain in the maindeck doesnt hurt and blood moon helps a lot against a bad matchup: TNN.
Blood Moon is a necessity against Tooth and Nail as we can accelerate better than they can when all of their Reap and Sows and Sylvan Scryings do nothing more than fetch 1 mana.
Shackles are a great card MD. They grab disciples, Ravagers, and other critters to chump-block all day long. Don't leave home without 3 in the main.
- 4 Mana Leak
- 4 Hinder
- 3 Rewind
- 2 Condescend
- 3 Gift Ungiven
- 2 Thirst for Knowledge
- 2 Revive
- 2 Echoing Truth
- 2 Oxidize
- 1 Rude Awakening
(25 Spells)
Land ///
- 3 Blinkmonth Nexus
- 10 Island
- 9 Forest
(22 Lands)
SideBoard
- 4 Naturalize
- 3 Timestop
- 3 annul
- 1 Reap and Sow
- 1 March of the Machines
- 1 Boseiju, who shelters all
- 2??????
I don't try to rush my 8 mana to cast rude awakening to win the game, I try to more control the game (why I run 13 counterspell)
I have no difficulties to win against Red/Green (kiki-jiki and stuff)
Against Raffinity, it's about if I can cast a ungiven gift, if I do the games mostly end for me.
For the Sideboard, with the gift, it's easy to get a card you have only 1 copy in your deck (exemple Gift for, shaman, oxydize, witness, march against affinity :))
the Reap and Sow is there to destroy the mono-Boseiju of TaN player dunno if it's work, nobody does play TaN at my local store =/ (can't test)
The good part is that I harldy get under 4 cards in hand =).
I don't think I would use a fourth vedalken shackles. Also, if you're going to use shackles I STRONGLY reccomend using Thist for Knowledge. IMO it's significantly better than gifts ungiven. It provides the all important card filler, generates straight up card advantage if you throw away a shackles, and lets YOU not your opponent decide what cards go to your graveyard.
I'm not a big fan of maindecking the truth-witness combo, but if ravager is less dominant in your area than it is in others, thats probably not such a bad idea.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
I don't think I would use a fourth vedalken shackles. Also, if you're going to use shackles I STRONGLY reccomend using Thist for Knowledge. IMO it's significantly better than gifts ungiven. It provides the all important card filler, generates straight up card advantage if you throw away a shackles, and lets YOU not your opponent decide what cards go to your graveyard.
I'm not a big fan of maindecking the truth-witness combo, but if ravager is less dominant in your area than it is in others, thats probably not such a bad idea.
Gift Ungiven is good, because it make your oppenent think. It is not necessary a card drawer/tutor, I use it mainly to trick my oppenent, remember he see only the four card you took from your library, not what you have in hand. Imo if you have access to recurcive card like witness you should run Ungiven Gift
Gifts is simply too slow to matter. And if your opponent is a decent player at all, they won't make the wrong choices...you'll end up getting the worse end of the deal. Even with Witness, there's just no reason to run it. Maybe if it was 2U..but it's not.
Gifts is simply too slow to matter. And if your opponent is a decent player at all, they won't make the wrong choices...you'll end up getting the worse end of the deal. Even with Witness, there's just no reason to run it. Maybe if it was 2U..but it's not.
Rewind ~~ then cast gift, in the curve ^^
beside they only see the 4 card you show them, not the one in your hand. they still can make the bad choice, if you feed them well.
meh doesn't matter. A card thats only strong against a bad opponent, is a bad card. IMO the real difference maker is that TfK costs 3 mana, and Gifts cost 4 mana...
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
now that i've been playing this deck for more than 2 weeks, i can post sanely about it, maybe. i've found that gifts are bad, as you usually have no problem drawing a win when you need it anyway. i'd much rather have thirst. i've found shackles to be really good, even against control where it can steal a non-Rude awakening win condition or a shaman or something. the biggest problem i've had is figuring out the counter base. 7 counters seems the right number, 4 of one thing and 3 of another, but i'm still trying to figure out what combination of mana leak, condescend, and hinder is the best. i was talking to the MD state champ about it a while ago, who won with UG. he plays 4 condescend, 3 hinder, which although good is pretty risky against affinity and the occasional WW that shows up. So.., thoughts?
I'd have to say I agree with Gifts Ungiven being a bad card thats just good against bad players. Thirst for Knowledge is cheaper to cast, and I've also enjoyed the fact that I can cast it in response to a spell being played by an opponent to find a counter. Thirst does not always guarantee that this happens but it is a bit more manageable than paying four mana to search for counters and then let your opponent pick what ones you get to use.
Here's my current listing
9 Forest
12 Islands
1 Minamo, School at Waters Edge
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
2 Condescend
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hinder
3 Kodama's Reach
4 Mana Leak
2 Rude Awakening
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Vedalken Shackles
Sideboard:
2 Bribery
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hinder
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
4 Oxidize
2 Plow Under
4 Temporal Adept
Its worked fairly well so far, I'm a bit weary on adding the one Mountain and sideboarding Bloodmoons for the Tooth&Nail match. I basicly haven't had time to testing as much recently due to the holidays.
right now, around here at least, Engineered explosives is the hot sideboard card. If you run one swamp maindeck, you can run SB 3 extractions and 3 explosives. this way, you can side in explosives against affinity and WW, and set it up to three:
The lists go on and on, pretty much stopping with three, where you can hit some 3CC creatures in WW and not much in Ravager. Even so, Engineered Explosives is a great card and must be included in all SBs. i'd suggest 3 copies, but that's not tweaked all that much; i need to do some more testing with that.
Also remember disciple of the vault and aether vial and atog and viridian shaman and eternal witness versus affinity and BG/UG respectively. Also, against UG, for 0 kills off meloku dudes.
I have been thinking about what to cut out for 3 Explosives, any ideas or examples?
Also, Gifts Ungiven isn't just a bad card that is only good against bad players. You just have to know how to utilize it properly, its not card draw, so don't compare it to thirst, its a tutor. After all would you compare mystical tutor to ancestral?
Gifts is good to find certain cards that are needed, just fetch 2 cards you want and any combination of witness, revive, and if you have a witness in play, echoing truth. Congradulations, you just searched for 2 cards that you wanted for 4 mana. And if you chose echoing truth and witness, as your other 2 cards you opponent is in a very, very hard place. He could give you any 2 cards and he would be screwed, as not only would you have the 2 cards you wanted, but if he gave you another witness or echo then you would be granted "infinite" spells to use on him, as he just gave you 2 very important cards to use against him, but he also gave you the echo + witness combo to use those cards over and over again. Gifts also helps even more during the 2nd and 3rd games after sideboarding, fetching whatever cards you sideboarded in to increase the odds of a win. Gifts isn't a bad card made good by bad players, its a uniqe card made good by good players.
As for Thirst for Knowledge, this is also a good choice for this deck. 3 cards with little drawback is very powerful. Being raw draw power Thirst will get you the cards that will help you win games. Whether it be more lands, counters, creatures, or hopefully win conditions when you need them. The tradeoff, is that the cards you get are completely random, unless your running top and know what the top three are.
2 different cards that serve 2 different purposes, one of them sets you up, or sets your opponent up for a long fall. The other increases the threats or control cards you have at any different time.
The only thing to decide is which card you wish to play. I'm still in the middle and am testing for which I like best.
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Here's my SB as of right now:
3 Explosives - Affinity/aggro
3 Oxidize - Affinity
3 Extraction - control/tooth
2 Bribery - tooth
2 Keiga - tooth
2 Last Word - control
Also, i'm not sure if all these official threads will be moved to competitive by the mods, what with the new change and all. if not, i may start a new thread in competitive.
Yeah, I was thinking about creating a new thread in competetive, heck maybe I'll do it....
The only thing I have questions about in that sideboard is the Keiga's. How are they working out? I would think that he'd simply be duplicanted away. I was thinking about using Uyo, Silent Prophet, she could help in many ways.
BTW: With Cranials in SB I'm guessing that you leave 1 Swamp MD?
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I run bribery and keiga. Keiga seems pretty good right now. the main problem is duplicant, you're right, but i still find them to be useful. i guess i could take them out and go + 1 bribery, + 1 last word. i don't think 4 bribery are needed, as you only need to draw one per game most of the time. However, more last words are always good.
@sacred: Yes, 1 swamp MD.
i'm STILL not sure about the counters though, having a really hard time with that...
I run 4 Mana Leak and 3 Hinder. Although, sometimes it just seems that I don't have a counter when needed. So I might up Hinder to 4 or add 2 Condescend (but I feel that 9 counters is just too much). I'll have to play even more before I decide what to do....
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I run 8 counters...4 leak and 4 hinder. I find that the hinder's are god. Theyre terrible in the affinity matchup, but good in everything else. BG? kokusho and DC. UG? Meloku and Rude. TnN? Tooth. Ponza? Kumano and Slogger. Kiki Jiki? Kiki Jiki and slogger/intruder alarm. My current list is:
Alright, here's the deal, I feel like I need either another Witness or Serum Visions, I just don't know what to take out. I am thinking about taking out Revive, as taking up 1 spot may just be 1 to many....
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@sacred: Instead of mountain/blood moon, i'd play swamp/extraction. However, that's up to your metagame. You definately need another witness, too. that's not even a question. if i were you, i'd take out gifts ungiven. as appealing as it seems, it's not that useful. Its sole purpose is to get a win condition, amirite? Instead of playing gifts, how about playing more win conditions, more draw spells, and better cards?
You could also think about taking something else out for a third thirst.
@pol: It's the 16th? thanks for telling me
IMO, you have too many win conditions. generally, ive found art hate such as shaman and oxidize to be better than molder slug.
Gifts is great, I'm am not taking it out. Not only does it fetch win conditions, but it can fetch shackles, counters, and Bloodmoon/Cranial, Jushi Apprentice, and Bribery. Gifts is very good, and I love it!
Now, about Bloodmoon vs Cranial, I'm still up in the air about it really but I chose Bloodmoon because it is a virtural wrecking ball against T&N, even though it is less versitle (the one reason I may switch).
I do think I may switch 1 revive for either Witness or Serum Visions (I think serum visions, if only because I run Gifts)
Also, out of morbid curiosity, how many of you run Condescend > Hinder, and just how much does the scry 2 help?
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4 mana leak
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kodama's Reach
3 Viridian Shaman
3 Oxidize
2 Echoing Truth
2 Rude Awakening
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Eternal witness
4 Serum Visions
1 O. Stone
1 Azusa
3 Meloku
1 Minamo
9 island
12 forest
SB
1 E. Truth
2 hinder
1 plow under
1 Uyo
2 Aquire
3 Motm
1 Shaman
1 Oxidize
3 Naturalize
This is not the perfect list. Some changes I might make are: -1 azusa -1 O. Stone -1 meloku +3 Shackles, -1 forest +1 mountain. -2 SB aquire +2 SB Blood moon.
Gifts Ungiven is a great card for me, and I love it. Shackles would help this deck quite a bit, and Blood moon helps one of our worse matchups, Tooth and Nail. I also need more plow unders, IMHO. Any other thoughts on UG in t2?
How are shackles working for you?
as well, the last SB may want to be Blood Moon. At News, it was discusseed and found that putting 1 mountain in the maindeck doesnt hurt and blood moon helps a lot against a bad matchup: TNN.
Shackles are a great card MD. They grab disciples, Ravagers, and other critters to chump-block all day long. Don't leave home without 3 in the main.
In other news, I like metaller's list.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
-=Creatures=-
4 Eternal Witness
3 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Viridian Shaman
-=Spells=-
4 Echoing Truth
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Hinder
4 Mana Leak
1 Oxidize
3 Rude Awakening
4 Serum Visions
-=Lands=-
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
9 Forest
11 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
-=Sideboard=-
4 Troll Ascetic
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Annul
3 Oxidize
3 Plow Under
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
Here is my build:
MainDeck
creatures ///
- 4 Eternal Witness
- 4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
- 2 Viridian Shaman
- 2 Solem Simulacrum
- 1 Meloku, The clouded mirror
(13 creatures)
Spell ///
- 4 Mana Leak
- 4 Hinder
- 3 Rewind
- 2 Condescend
- 3 Gift Ungiven
- 2 Thirst for Knowledge
- 2 Revive
- 2 Echoing Truth
- 2 Oxidize
- 1 Rude Awakening
(25 Spells)
Land ///
- 3 Blinkmonth Nexus
- 10 Island
- 9 Forest
(22 Lands)
SideBoard
- 4 Naturalize
- 3 Timestop
- 3 annul
- 1 Reap and Sow
- 1 March of the Machines
- 1 Boseiju, who shelters all
- 2??????
I don't try to rush my 8 mana to cast rude awakening to win the game, I try to more control the game (why I run 13 counterspell)
I have no difficulties to win against Red/Green (kiki-jiki and stuff)
Against Raffinity, it's about if I can cast a ungiven gift, if I do the games mostly end for me.
For the Sideboard, with the gift, it's easy to get a card you have only 1 copy in your deck (exemple Gift for, shaman, oxydize, witness, march against affinity :))
the Reap and Sow is there to destroy the mono-Boseiju of TaN player dunno if it's work, nobody does play TaN at my local store =/ (can't test)
The good part is that I harldy get under 4 cards in hand =).
Tell me what you think about this build.
I'm not a big fan of maindecking the truth-witness combo, but if ravager is less dominant in your area than it is in others, thats probably not such a bad idea.
Mafia Stats
Gift Ungiven is good, because it make your oppenent think. It is not necessary a card drawer/tutor, I use it mainly to trick my oppenent, remember he see only the four card you took from your library, not what you have in hand. Imo if you have access to recurcive card like witness you should run Ungiven Gift
Rewind ~~ then cast gift, in the curve ^^
beside they only see the 4 card you show them, not the one in your hand. they still can make the bad choice, if you feed them well.
Mafia Stats
Here's my current listing
9 Forest
12 Islands
1 Minamo, School at Waters Edge
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Eternal Witness
2 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Viridian Shaman
2 Condescend
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hinder
3 Kodama's Reach
4 Mana Leak
2 Rude Awakening
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Vedalken Shackles
Sideboard:
2 Bribery
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hinder
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
4 Oxidize
2 Plow Under
4 Temporal Adept
Its worked fairly well so far, I'm a bit weary on adding the one Mountain and sideboarding Bloodmoons for the Tooth&Nail match. I basicly haven't had time to testing as much recently due to the holidays.
Zero:
Welding Jar
Ornithopter
One:
Worker
Chromatic Sphere
Savana Lions
Isamaru
Skullclamp
Lantern Kami
Suntail Hawk
Two:
Ravager
Shikari
Various 2-drops in WW
....
The lists go on and on, pretty much stopping with three, where you can hit some 3CC creatures in WW and not much in Ravager. Even so, Engineered Explosives is a great card and must be included in all SBs. i'd suggest 3 copies, but that's not tweaked all that much; i need to do some more testing with that.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
Also, Gifts Ungiven isn't just a bad card that is only good against bad players. You just have to know how to utilize it properly, its not card draw, so don't compare it to thirst, its a tutor. After all would you compare mystical tutor to ancestral?
Gifts is good to find certain cards that are needed, just fetch 2 cards you want and any combination of witness, revive, and if you have a witness in play, echoing truth. Congradulations, you just searched for 2 cards that you wanted for 4 mana. And if you chose echoing truth and witness, as your other 2 cards you opponent is in a very, very hard place. He could give you any 2 cards and he would be screwed, as not only would you have the 2 cards you wanted, but if he gave you another witness or echo then you would be granted "infinite" spells to use on him, as he just gave you 2 very important cards to use against him, but he also gave you the echo + witness combo to use those cards over and over again. Gifts also helps even more during the 2nd and 3rd games after sideboarding, fetching whatever cards you sideboarded in to increase the odds of a win. Gifts isn't a bad card made good by bad players, its a uniqe card made good by good players.
As for Thirst for Knowledge, this is also a good choice for this deck. 3 cards with little drawback is very powerful. Being raw draw power Thirst will get you the cards that will help you win games. Whether it be more lands, counters, creatures, or hopefully win conditions when you need them. The tradeoff, is that the cards you get are completely random, unless your running top and know what the top three are.
2 different cards that serve 2 different purposes, one of them sets you up, or sets your opponent up for a long fall. The other increases the threats or control cards you have at any different time.
The only thing to decide is which card you wish to play. I'm still in the middle and am testing for which I like best.
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
3 Explosives - Affinity/aggro
3 Oxidize - Affinity
3 Extraction - control/tooth
2 Bribery - tooth
2 Keiga - tooth
2 Last Word - control
Also, i'm not sure if all these official threads will be moved to competitive by the mods, what with the new change and all. if not, i may start a new thread in competitive.
The only thing I have questions about in that sideboard is the Keiga's. How are they working out? I would think that he'd simply be duplicanted away. I was thinking about using Uyo, Silent Prophet, she could help in many ways.
BTW: With Cranials in SB I'm guessing that you leave 1 Swamp MD?
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
@sacred: Yes, 1 swamp MD.
i'm STILL not sure about the counters though, having a really hard time with that...
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
-=Creatures=-
4 Eternal Witness
2 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3 Molder Slug
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Viridian Shaman
-=Spells=-
4 Echoing Truth
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Hinder
4 Mana Leak
1 Oxidize
2 Rude Awakening
4 Serum Visions
-=Lands=-
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
10 Forest
10 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
-=Sideboard=-
3 Troll Ascetic
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Oxidize
4 Plow Under
Boarding:
-=Affinity=-
-4 Leak
-4 Hinder
+4 EE
+3 Oxidize
+1 Shaman
-=Tooth=-
-3 Shaman
-1 Oxidize
+4 Plow Under
-=UG=-
-3 Shaman
-1 Oxidize
-3 Molder Slug
+4 Plow
+3 Ascetic
-=BG=-
-3 Shaman
-1 Oxidize
-3 Molder Slug
+4 Plow
+3 Ascetic
-=Ponza=-
-3 Shaman
-1 Oxidize
-3 Molder Slug
+4 Plow
+3 Ascetic
All suggestions and comments are appreciated, Im hoping to play in JSS on the 16th...
EDIT: made it more readable.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
10 [MR] Island (2)
10 [8E] Forest (3)
1 [CHK] Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 [CHK] Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 [ON] Mountain (2)
2 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [MR] Viridian Shaman
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [8E] Mana Leak
3 [CHK] Hinder
3 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
2 [FD] Rude Awakening
3 [CHK] Kodama's Reach
1 [8E] Revive
Alright, here's the deal, I feel like I need either another Witness or Serum Visions, I just don't know what to take out. I am thinking about taking out Revive, as taking up 1 spot may just be 1 to many....
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy:
-3 Gifts ungiven
-1 Revive
+1 witness
+1 Rude awakening
+2 thirst for knowledge
You could also think about taking something else out for a third thirst.
@pol: It's the 16th? thanks for telling me
IMO, you have too many win conditions. generally, ive found art hate such as shaman and oxidize to be better than molder slug.
Now, about Bloodmoon vs Cranial, I'm still up in the air about it really but I chose Bloodmoon because it is a virtural wrecking ball against T&N, even though it is less versitle (the one reason I may switch).
I do think I may switch 1 revive for either Witness or Serum Visions (I think serum visions, if only because I run Gifts)
Also, out of morbid curiosity, how many of you run Condescend > Hinder, and just how much does the scry 2 help?
EDH:
:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
Standard:
Legacy: