Um whos idea was it to run rude in this deck? Bad idea.
Quote from IxidorVersionTwo »
I feel like I just cried in the inside.
*ignores anything Earl Pants says from now on*
soo, anyway.....
Those are actually quite interesting suggestions, CTT. I have found room for echoing truth AND shackles in the list, but it's pretty crowded, and may move echoing truths to the board. I have to agree, Shackles is incredibly useful. Keiga may be better than meloku in B/G, but in other matchups, i'm not sure.. One thing to be said for meloku, though, is that with all the tokens you don't have to sac the meloku to death cloud, while the keiga almost always goes. Sure, it might take a creature, but that depends on how many creatures they have, and how big their death cloud is. It's a good point though, and merits some testing. As to echoing decay, you can cranial extraction naming them if you really need to, if you're running SB extraction, or you can wait to rude until you have enough lands to kill them + 3 and a hinder in hand.
Heh, I wouldn't reccommend Cranial Extraction in a U/G SB. But, I agree with your sentiment of running both Shackles and Truths. I think 4 and 3, respectively, would work pretty well. Though, I wish there were a good way to make the Shackles untargettable.
As for Keiga vs Meloku, I run 2 of each win condition (Rudes included). This makes it so that even if I am Extracted, I will be okay. Death Cloud I will always hold a Hinder back for, unless they have Boseiju, in which case....well, not much can be done.
I plan to test out Affinity vs U/G today. Wish me luck.
The countersgo a long way, and Echoing Truth does much in the way of saving your ass in the late game...
Ninphidian is NEVER used on turn 2 against any deck... Like Ophidian, it is a mid-late game card and should be played that way.
Running BOTH Shackels and Truths is silly because you are inevitably cutting out the Ninphidians, the Serum Visions, or some of the Affinity hate to do so.
The countersgo a long way, and Echoing Truth does much in the way of saving your ass in the late game...
I think you are stressing the counters a bit. Since B/G runs the same accel we do, plus Solemn in some cases, Mana Leak becomes useless past turn 3, and Condescend isn't much better. Hinders MUST be saved for Death Cloud, unless you like losing. So, the counters do help, but, they don't go a long way in this matchup.
Ninphidian is NEVER used on turn 2 against any deck... Like Ophidian, it is a mid-late game card and should be played that way.
Late game, I want to be winning. Not playing 2/2's for 4. The ninjutsu ability is only useful early on, as later on, when the board is stalled, no one would let an Eternal Witness or a Viridian Shaman go unblocked.
Running BOTH Shackels and Truths is silly because you are inevitably cutting out the Ninphidians, the Serum Visions, or some of the Affinity hate to do so.
I never saw a good reason to play Serum Visions....So, I guess that is out for my version.
I'm thinking I want to replace the Ninjas with Jushi Apprentice. Guaranteed card draw is better than situational card draw, IMO.
Also for the record, I want to note that my local metagame consists of maybe a dozen people, 9 of which play some form of control.
I think you are stressing the counters a bit. Since B/G runs the same accel we do, plus Solemn in some cases, Mana Leak becomes useless past turn 3, and Condescend isn't much better. Hinders MUST be saved for Death Cloud, unless you like losing. So, the counters do help, but, they don't go a long way in this matchup.
True. Mana Leak is terrible against BG most of the time. Then again, no one runs Condescend anymore, so that leaves Hinder as our muscle... Not good... Oh wait! There are some of us running 4 Quash sideboarded... Hmm... Bye bye Death Cloud, Kodama's Reach, Cranial Extraction, and whateevr else you want to throw at us!
Quote from Crono Temporal Tiem »
Late game, I want to be winning. Not playing 2/2's for 4. The ninjutsu ability is only useful early on, as later on, when the board is stalled, no one would let an Eternal Witness or a Viridian Shaman go unblocked.
Unbelievably, against decks like BG and such, turn 4 or 5, they often will let crap like Witnesses or STE's through... Especially STE's... They realize that if you get mana superiority, they lose.
Quote from Crono Temporal Tiem »
I never saw a good reason to play Serum Visions....So, I guess that is out for my version.
I'm thinking I want to replace the Ninjas with Jushi Apprentice. Guaranteed card draw is better than situational card draw, IMO.
Also for the record, I want to note that my local metagame consists of maybe a dozen people, 9 of which play some form of control.
Serum Visions is quality turn 1 card draw that is essential to garaunteeing a turn 2 STE. Seems pretty important to me.
Jushi Apprentice is also weaker and tends to be a little slower, and dare I say, crappier.
My local meta is consisting of about 5-7 Affinity players, 3-5 Tooth and Nail players, 5-6 UG Control players, 1-2 BG Control players, and a little jank spalshed in on the side.
True. Mana Leak is terrible against BG most of the time. Then again, no one runs Condescend anymore, so that leaves Hinder as our muscle... Not good... Oh wait! There are some of us running 4 Quash sideboarded... Hmm... Bye bye Death Cloud, Kodama's Reach, Cranial Extraction, and whateevr else you want to throw at us!
Eh, I dunno about Quash. I mean, I'm undecided on it. My first response would be that I would rather have something that could counter any spell, instead of just instants and sorceries, but....You may have a point. Condescend is great. I can think of no reason not to play it.
Unbelievably, against decks like BG and such, turn 4 or 5, they often will let crap like Witnesses or STE's through... Especially STE's... They realize that if you get mana superiority, they lose.
Witnesses no one would let through knowing about the ninja. STE they might let through, but, if you use it to bring the ninja out, you are losing the mana accel. I'd rather have the mana.
Serum Visions is quality turn 1 card draw that is essential to garaunteeing a turn 2 STE. Seems pretty important to me.
I can't really argue with you on that one, as I haven't tested Serum Visions at all, though, I'm sure there is more efficient drawing around.
Jushi Apprentice is also weaker and tends to be a little slower, and dare I say, crappier.
The Apprentice may have lower P&T than the ninja, but, it will always draw you a card. Always. The ninja has a 1 time shot at drawing you a card, if they decide not to block your STE, since after it is out they WILL block it.
Anyway, if you really want to use NotDH, why not use Thieving Magpie instead? The double blue is a non-issue, plus it has flying. They both cost 4, but, the ninja has the 1 time "surprise" effect (which, really isn't a suprise. Honestly, how many times did you not know what the Morph creature in slide was? It was always Exalted Angel. Same deal here).
Of course, I wouldn't run the Magpie, which seems to me to be strictly better than NotDH....
The Magpie will ALWAYS cost you 4 mana and it is a 1/3... Not too great in this format.
By the time you are at turn 4 or 5, a STE won't help you much as you've already got a steady mana base...
Quash is useful in BG, the mirror, AND Tooth and Nail... I can se no reason not to SB it.
The Apprentice may be a garaunteed draw, but you also lose the power of potential Witness tricks and give yourself a rather expensive body that won't even touch a Frogmite.
The Magpie will ALWAYS cost you 4 mana and it is a 1/3... Not too great in this format.
By the time you are at turn 4 or 5, a STE won't help you much as you've already got a steady mana base...
Quash is useful in BG, the mirror, AND Tooth and Nail... I can se no reason not to SB it.
The Apprentice may be a garaunteed draw, but you also lose the power of potential Witness tricks and give yourself a rather expensive body that won't even touch a Frogmite.
Actually, a 1/3 body is pretty good for blocking Frogmites and workers, not to mention opposing witnesses. It may not kill the Frogmite, but it will block it. Of course, at turn 4, that's pretty irrelevant, but....
As for the Apprentice, it can kill a Frogmite....after flipping. With Meloku, getting 8 cards in hand is a snap.
Anyway, Quash...still not decided on it. I will probably end up putting 3 in the board, just in case.
Blocking a Frogmite that may/may not have a plating on it is irrelevant?
You do realize you are requiring yourself to discard 2 cards at the end of the turn once the Apprentice flips, which comes to negative card advantage. Not to mention, you're wrong on the Apprentice's body...
Jushi Apprentice - 1U
Creature - Human Wizard (R) 2U,T: Draw a card. If you have nine or more cards in hand, flip Jushi Apprentice.
1/2
-------
Tomoya the Revealer
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard 3UU,T: Target player draws X cards, where X is the number of cards in your hand.
2/3
Compared to:
Ninja of the Deep Hours - 3U
Creature - Human Ninja
Ninjutsu 1U(1U, Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking.)
Whenever Ninja of the Deep Hours deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.
2/2
I'm seeing a slight discrepency in where the Apprentice is "better"... Especially as you won't ever cast it on turn 2.
You do realize you are requiring yourself to discard 2 cards at the end of the turn once the Apprentice flips, which comes to negative card advantage. Not to mention, you're wrong on the Apprentice's body...
Yeah, I realize. Which is why I mentioned Meloku. It is ridiculously easy to flip an Apprentice with Meloku in play. And, once I hit 8 or so lands, I really don't mind discarding extras.
Yeah, the Apprentice only has 1 more toughness than the Ninja when flipped, but, 1 toughness extra survives opposing Shamans and Witnesses.
Yeah, I realize. Which is why I mentioned Meloku. It is ridiculously easy to flip an Apprentice with Meloku in play. And, once I hit 8 or so lands, I really don't mind discarding extras.
That doesn't even apply until way later than the Ninja starts thwapping the opponent. You have to have Meloku, the Apprentice, and to have accomplished that, you'd have needed board position.
Yeah, the Apprentice only has 1 more toughness than the Ninja when flipped, but, 1 toughness extra survives opposing Shamans and Witnesses.
By the time you have the Meloku and the Apprentice can be flipped, Shamans and Witnesses aren't really all that important. Afterall, you can just kill the opponent with Meloku, no?
The biggest drawback to apprentice is actually that it sucks up mana. Makes it difficult to draw AND counter in the same turn, esp. early game. Ninphidian sucks up a turn, which is a HUGE help. The downside of course is the draw is not as guaranteed, since you need to swing unblocked to get the cards, but that's a small price to pay for MUCH greater mana efficiency to be CASTING the spells you draw :).
Incidentally if mana effeciency weren't an issue, we'd all be using Myojin of the Seeing Wind, since it draws 11+ cards :p.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
yeah Ninphidian is just too good to pass up in this deck. heres my build now.
Creatures:
4 Eternal Witness
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Cherry Blossom Snake (:))
2 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Keiga, The Tide Star
Spells:
4 Echoing Truth
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Rude Awakening
3 Mana Leak
4 Condescend
2 Vedalken Shackles
Land:
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfather
1 Minamo, School at the Water's Edge
11 Forest
11 Island
Sideboard:
3 Quash
4 Oxidize
3 Plow Under
3 March of the Machines
2 Molder Slug
what do you guys think of it? it looks similar but i think that Condescend is better then Hinder. yes they can pay it but when you look at most of the decks out there, affinity is the only one that really doesnt shuffle their deck often. Tooth, UG, BG they all shuffle so hinder doesnt really stop them from getting the spell back.
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Summoner- Condescend is terrible... The card cannot function at ALL until the late game, it sinks your mana, and it still allows for them to use Witness tricks.
Hinder is the opposite of all of the above.
Keiga sucks, so nix that and Molder Slug is a non-answer, so i'd remove that as well.
Pol - First, your list is only 59 cards...
Second, you're missing Kodama's Reach...
The main difference between our builds:
-1 Okina
-1 Boseiju
-1 Serum Visions
-2 Oxidize (Goes into the SB)
...my list is 60 cards butte - ive put in some numbers to make it easier to see.
I tested the reaches, and while they're good, I think the BG matchup is good enough anyways...and also, you really dont want to tap out turn 3. And you dont want to play this when you're getting beaten by savanah lions or ravager.
EDIT: While Blood moon is good, I dont like destabilizing the manabase, and tooth will not be played as much in the near future, due to quash and sowing salt coming back. also, It's Only good againt tooth. plow and troll are good against all control.
Kodama's Reach isn't a card just for the BG matchup!
The card is crucial mana acceleration that can be played on turn 3 or 4 and it puts you ahead on so many levels... Getting a land and a guaranteed land drop the next turn for 3 mana is ridiculous.
The troll is useless... Even karstoderm is better than it.
Tooth and Nail isn't, and won't be, dying any time soon... The cards slow Tooth and Nail down by a turn or two... The deck will survive...
Blood Moon is THE card to use against Tooth and Nail... There's nothing better right now.
Well, BB, the first few games I tested against B/G were pretty bad, but, after I added Vedalken Shackles it became a stomp-fest.
The primay difference between my opponent's list and the list you provided is he runs 4 Decays and 4 Rends in the main. Perhaps that is why I didn't do so well with the Ninja...my creatures didn't stay alive that long at all.
I still disagree with you on Condescend though. It is more versatile than Mana Leak, and has the ever important scry.
On that subject, how many counters is enough? I'm thinking 4 Hinder, 3 Mana Leak, 3 Condescend for 10 counters total. I just don't think 7 counters are enough. Maybe Rewind instead of Condescend? Quash instead of Rewind?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the reaches. You like them, I don't, let's move on.
BB, im gonna have to disagree completely on the troll. UG has no answers, MUC has no answers, Tooth has no answers, and it's a good beater. that regenerates. and BG has to resolve a cloud or a barter to kill it.
Also, I did not say that tooth isn't viable any more, I said that it won't be played as much because there is a lot of hate in the environment.
Blood Moon is very good against tooth, but I dont like the stress it puts on the manabase. It's fine for you because you run reaches, but I don't like the idea of relying on topdecking the mountain or one of 4 elders.
I believe Hinder is plain terrible. just an overcosted Memory Lapse. I dont want them having the chance to redraw it. also Condescend is great. even if they pay it, you still get to scry. scrying is good for u/g. Also saying witness can get it back is pointless. even if the spell was let through they can still get it.
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I have Hinders instead of Condescends. Yeah, they get a chance to get it, but it is a nice delay (wasting mana/turn to get it again) rather than paying all your mana. I usually end up in a counter-war anyways. It is nice to keep that extra mana. Exp when you have Meloku or something out when you need EOT (End of Turn) events going on.
But for the Scry replacement, I found out running 2 dradles (Sensei's Diving Top) is uber duper. Its been doing its job so far.
I am thinning the deck out with my turbo-land cards and then I keep control of the top 3 cards of my deck. Not to mention I am shuffling the deck with those grabbers so I get a mix and higher chance of getting cards I need.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Hinder is worse than Condescend, rather, Condescend is better than Mana Leak. Hinder is the number 1 blue counter at the moment in Type 2.
I believe Hinder is plain terrible. just an overcosted Memory Lapse. I dont want them having the chance to redraw it. also Condescend is great. even if they pay it, you still get to scry. scrying is good for u/g. Also saying witness can get it back is pointless. even if the spell was let through they can still get it.
Hinder can put it on the bottom of the library too. That means no Witnessing back the countered spell for a LONG time.
I always enjoy Mana Leak at the beginning of game, but I'll try taking Leaky out for Condescend. I've never done that swap.
I can't argue that it is definatlly better after turn 5+
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*ignores anything Earl Pants says from now on*
soo, anyway.....
Those are actually quite interesting suggestions, CTT. I have found room for echoing truth AND shackles in the list, but it's pretty crowded, and may move echoing truths to the board. I have to agree, Shackles is incredibly useful. Keiga may be better than meloku in B/G, but in other matchups, i'm not sure.. One thing to be said for meloku, though, is that with all the tokens you don't have to sac the meloku to death cloud, while the keiga almost always goes. Sure, it might take a creature, but that depends on how many creatures they have, and how big their death cloud is. It's a good point though, and merits some testing. As to echoing decay, you can cranial extraction naming them if you really need to, if you're running SB extraction, or you can wait to rude until you have enough lands to kill them + 3 and a hinder in hand.
As for Keiga vs Meloku, I run 2 of each win condition (Rudes included). This makes it so that even if I am Extracted, I will be okay. Death Cloud I will always hold a Hinder back for, unless they have Boseiju, in which case....well, not much can be done.
I plan to test out Affinity vs U/G today. Wish me luck.
The countersgo a long way, and Echoing Truth does much in the way of saving your ass in the late game...
Ninphidian is NEVER used on turn 2 against any deck... Like Ophidian, it is a mid-late game card and should be played that way.
Running BOTH Shackels and Truths is silly because you are inevitably cutting out the Ninphidians, the Serum Visions, or some of the Affinity hate to do so.
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I think you are stressing the counters a bit. Since B/G runs the same accel we do, plus Solemn in some cases, Mana Leak becomes useless past turn 3, and Condescend isn't much better. Hinders MUST be saved for Death Cloud, unless you like losing. So, the counters do help, but, they don't go a long way in this matchup.
Late game, I want to be winning. Not playing 2/2's for 4. The ninjutsu ability is only useful early on, as later on, when the board is stalled, no one would let an Eternal Witness or a Viridian Shaman go unblocked.
I never saw a good reason to play Serum Visions....So, I guess that is out for my version.
I'm thinking I want to replace the Ninjas with Jushi Apprentice. Guaranteed card draw is better than situational card draw, IMO.
Also for the record, I want to note that my local metagame consists of maybe a dozen people, 9 of which play some form of control.
True. Mana Leak is terrible against BG most of the time. Then again, no one runs Condescend anymore, so that leaves Hinder as our muscle... Not good... Oh wait! There are some of us running 4 Quash sideboarded... Hmm... Bye bye Death Cloud, Kodama's Reach, Cranial Extraction, and whateevr else you want to throw at us!
Unbelievably, against decks like BG and such, turn 4 or 5, they often will let crap like Witnesses or STE's through... Especially STE's... They realize that if you get mana superiority, they lose.
Serum Visions is quality turn 1 card draw that is essential to garaunteeing a turn 2 STE. Seems pretty important to me.
Jushi Apprentice is also weaker and tends to be a little slower, and dare I say, crappier.
My local meta is consisting of about 5-7 Affinity players, 3-5 Tooth and Nail players, 5-6 UG Control players, 1-2 BG Control players, and a little jank spalshed in on the side.
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Eh, I dunno about Quash. I mean, I'm undecided on it. My first response would be that I would rather have something that could counter any spell, instead of just instants and sorceries, but....You may have a point. Condescend is great. I can think of no reason not to play it.
Witnesses no one would let through knowing about the ninja. STE they might let through, but, if you use it to bring the ninja out, you are losing the mana accel. I'd rather have the mana.
I can't really argue with you on that one, as I haven't tested Serum Visions at all, though, I'm sure there is more efficient drawing around.
The Apprentice may have lower P&T than the ninja, but, it will always draw you a card. Always. The ninja has a 1 time shot at drawing you a card, if they decide not to block your STE, since after it is out they WILL block it.
Anyway, if you really want to use NotDH, why not use Thieving Magpie instead? The double blue is a non-issue, plus it has flying. They both cost 4, but, the ninja has the 1 time "surprise" effect (which, really isn't a suprise. Honestly, how many times did you not know what the Morph creature in slide was? It was always Exalted Angel. Same deal here).
Of course, I wouldn't run the Magpie, which seems to me to be strictly better than NotDH....
By the time you are at turn 4 or 5, a STE won't help you much as you've already got a steady mana base...
Quash is useful in BG, the mirror, AND Tooth and Nail... I can se no reason not to SB it.
The Apprentice may be a garaunteed draw, but you also lose the power of potential Witness tricks and give yourself a rather expensive body that won't even touch a Frogmite.
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Actually, a 1/3 body is pretty good for blocking Frogmites and workers, not to mention opposing witnesses. It may not kill the Frogmite, but it will block it. Of course, at turn 4, that's pretty irrelevant, but....
As for the Apprentice, it can kill a Frogmite....after flipping. With Meloku, getting 8 cards in hand is a snap.
Anyway, Quash...still not decided on it. I will probably end up putting 3 in the board, just in case.
You do realize you are requiring yourself to discard 2 cards at the end of the turn once the Apprentice flips, which comes to negative card advantage. Not to mention, you're wrong on the Apprentice's body...
Jushi Apprentice - 1U
Creature - Human Wizard (R)
2U,T: Draw a card. If you have nine or more cards in hand, flip Jushi Apprentice.
1/2
-------
Tomoya the Revealer
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
3UU,T: Target player draws X cards, where X is the number of cards in your hand.
2/3
Compared to:
Ninja of the Deep Hours - 3U
Creature - Human Ninja
Ninjutsu 1U (1U, Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking.)
Whenever Ninja of the Deep Hours deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.
2/2
I'm seeing a slight discrepency in where the Apprentice is "better"... Especially as you won't ever cast it on turn 2.
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Yeah, I realize. Which is why I mentioned Meloku. It is ridiculously easy to flip an Apprentice with Meloku in play. And, once I hit 8 or so lands, I really don't mind discarding extras.
Yeah, the Apprentice only has 1 more toughness than the Ninja when flipped, but, 1 toughness extra survives opposing Shamans and Witnesses.
Is there any other decent card draw in BoK?
That doesn't even apply until way later than the Ninja starts thwapping the opponent. You have to have Meloku, the Apprentice, and to have accomplished that, you'd have needed board position.
By the time you have the Meloku and the Apprentice can be flipped, Shamans and Witnesses aren't really all that important. Afterall, you can just kill the opponent with Meloku, no?
Ninphidian.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
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Incidentally if mana effeciency weren't an issue, we'd all be using Myojin of the Seeing Wind, since it draws 11+ cards :p.
Mafia Stats
I played a couple of matches right now and I slaughtered it 2-0 each time... With different players...
The BG player just couldn't compete...
And to not, the Ninja saved me several times throughout the games... Drawing crucial win-conditions and Witnesses is nice.
Just to reference:
The BG Control list:
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
8 Swamp
14 Forest
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
// Creatures
4 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Rend Flesh
2 Echoing Decay
4 Plow Under
3 Hideous Laughter
4 Rampant Growth
1 Rude Awakening
3 Death Cloud
1 Echoing Decay
1 Platinum Angel
4 Viridian Shaman
4 Oxidize
4 Karstoderm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
And the UG Control list:
11 Forest
9 Island
1 Mountain
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
// Creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
4 Eternal Witness
3 Viridian Shaman
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Oxidize
4 Mana Leak
3 Echoing Truth
2 Rude Awakening
3 Serum Visions
4 Hinder
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Oxidize
4 Relic Barrier
3 Blood Moon
4 Quash
2 Engineered Explosives
The only card I sideboarded were the Quashes in for 2 Oxidize and 1 Viridian Shaman.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
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4 Eternal Witness
2 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3 Ninja of the deep Hours
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Viridian Shaman
-=Spells=- 21
3 Echoing Truth
4 Hinder
4 Mana Leak
4 Oxidize
2 Rude Awakening
4 Serum Visions
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
11 Forest
9 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's
1 Okina, Temple to the
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Plow Under
4 March of the Machines
Note the easy boarding. The changes I made were:
-1 meloku
-1 e-truth
-1 shaman
Board:
-1 troll
+1 march
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
Creatures:
4 Eternal Witness
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Cherry Blossom Snake (:))
2 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Keiga, The Tide Star
Spells:
4 Echoing Truth
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Rude Awakening
3 Mana Leak
4 Condescend
2 Vedalken Shackles
Land:
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfather
1 Minamo, School at the Water's Edge
11 Forest
11 Island
Sideboard:
3 Quash
4 Oxidize
3 Plow Under
3 March of the Machines
2 Molder Slug
what do you guys think of it? it looks similar but i think that Condescend is better then Hinder. yes they can pay it but when you look at most of the decks out there, affinity is the only one that really doesnt shuffle their deck often. Tooth, UG, BG they all shuffle so hinder doesnt really stop them from getting the spell back.
credit to dementia blader
Currently Playing:
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:symu::symg: Control
In Contstruction:
:symr::symb: Powerhouse
Affinity and T&N matchups
Ponza: Aff: W-6 L-5 T&N: W-17 L-21
UG Control: Aff: W-8 L-0(still unbeaten!) T&N: W-5 L-3 T-1
Hinder is the opposite of all of the above.
Keiga sucks, so nix that and Molder Slug is a non-answer, so i'd remove that as well.
Pol - First, your list is only 59 cards...
Second, you're missing Kodama's Reach...
The main difference between our builds:
-1 Okina
-1 Boseiju
-1 Serum Visions
-2 Oxidize (Goes into the SB)
+1 Mountain (For the powerful Blood Moon SB)
+4 Kodama's Reach
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
I tested the reaches, and while they're good, I think the BG matchup is good enough anyways...and also, you really dont want to tap out turn 3. And you dont want to play this when you're getting beaten by savanah lions or ravager.
EDIT: While Blood moon is good, I dont like destabilizing the manabase, and tooth will not be played as much in the near future, due to quash and sowing salt coming back. also, It's Only good againt tooth. plow and troll are good against all control.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
The card is crucial mana acceleration that can be played on turn 3 or 4 and it puts you ahead on so many levels... Getting a land and a guaranteed land drop the next turn for 3 mana is ridiculous.
The troll is useless... Even karstoderm is better than it.
Tooth and Nail isn't, and won't be, dying any time soon... The cards slow Tooth and Nail down by a turn or two... The deck will survive...
Blood Moon is THE card to use against Tooth and Nail... There's nothing better right now.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
The primay difference between my opponent's list and the list you provided is he runs 4 Decays and 4 Rends in the main. Perhaps that is why I didn't do so well with the Ninja...my creatures didn't stay alive that long at all.
I still disagree with you on Condescend though. It is more versatile than Mana Leak, and has the ever important scry.
On that subject, how many counters is enough? I'm thinking 4 Hinder, 3 Mana Leak, 3 Condescend for 10 counters total. I just don't think 7 counters are enough. Maybe Rewind instead of Condescend? Quash instead of Rewind?
BB, im gonna have to disagree completely on the troll. UG has no answers, MUC has no answers, Tooth has no answers, and it's a good beater. that regenerates. and BG has to resolve a cloud or a barter to kill it.
Also, I did not say that tooth isn't viable any more, I said that it won't be played as much because there is a lot of hate in the environment.
Blood Moon is very good against tooth, but I dont like the stress it puts on the manabase. It's fine for you because you run reaches, but I don't like the idea of relying on topdecking the mountain or one of 4 elders.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
credit to dementia blader
Currently Playing:
Ponza
:symu::symg: Control
In Contstruction:
:symr::symb: Powerhouse
Affinity and T&N matchups
Ponza: Aff: W-6 L-5 T&N: W-17 L-21
UG Control: Aff: W-8 L-0(still unbeaten!) T&N: W-5 L-3 T-1
But for the Scry replacement, I found out running 2 dradles (Sensei's Diving Top) is uber duper. Its been doing its job so far.
I am thinning the deck out with my turbo-land cards and then I keep control of the top 3 cards of my deck. Not to mention I am shuffling the deck with those grabbers so I get a mix and higher chance of getting cards I need.
In my deck, Hinder > Condescend.
But whatever works for you.
Currently Playing:
*** Under Construction***
Hinder can put it on the bottom of the library too. That means no Witnessing back the countered spell for a LONG time.
I can't argue that it is definatlly better after turn 5+
Currently Playing:
*** Under Construction***