something that hasn't been mentioned once in this thread: hooded hydra
not as good as hangarback but is more efficient of a token maker, albeit without flying. something to consider
Hooded hydra has been mentioned previously. Generally agreed that it was fine as a budget replacement for hangarback but not good enough in its own right.
And additional benefit to hangarback over hydra that was overlooked before, is the ability to cast it for 0 or -0 liliana to get him back. Both of which I have done a number of times
So I've gotten three Standard tournaments under my belt. I ran my decklists (found on Pages 2 and 11 respectively) for the first two tournaments. They did well enough, but I think some of my losses were based on misplays on my part more so than the deck itself (2-2 and 1-2-drop). But I also saw where the deck was faltering and sought to shore up it's weaknesses. This what I came up with (I went 3-1 and only lost to RG Landfall):
The first thing to note is that I decided to go four colors. The inspiration for this build came from quite a few people on this board. I remember some posters talking about a mind control build, whereby taking control of an opponent's creatures attacking with them and/or sacking them to Nantuko Husk. I also felt like my previous builds had some trouble finding "answers" and engine pieces fast enough. So I said to myself "This deck needs more card draw." As the deck started coming together, I realized that this deck shines the most when I have a ridiculous amount of creatures on the field I can sack at will to Husk and/or boardwipe. The only problem I've encountered is having the double red needed to activate Yasova Dragonclaw's ability reliably on Turn 4. This could be mitigated by adding a Sunken Hollow to the deck, BUT I agree with Patrick Chapin that the Battlelands work best when you have a combination of 17 Fetchlands/Basics. As it stands, I only have 15. I'll play around with the lands to see if I can make it work.
I'm thinking of replacing the Bone Splinters with Abzan Charm. The problem is that the 3 drop spot is clogged enough as it is. Outnumber would work, but it's too dependent on how many creatures I have out on the field.
I also play 4 colors, but in a completely different shell but the glaring issue I don't like with your deck is 9 potential tapped lands, 9 legendary creatures and 4 4 drops that don't effect the battlefield the turn they come down. Your mana base (and pardon my harshness) seems atrocious. I don't think it's possible for you to curve out on some of your draws. For example your dragon fodder draws are dependent on turn 1 tapped red land, while this is all fine, it also wants to be a smoldering marsh so you can play your double black spells on 3. If you draw a cinderglave you are then hoping too hit double runner swamp which doesn't seem all that unlikely seeing as you have 7 swamps, but then you have to also hope any remaining fetchlands you have can also find your white source to start casting your 3/4 drops in Ascendancy and Retreat this also isn't account for your white sideboard cards. If all that wasn't hard enough you now have a creature who relys on getting double blue or red to gain max usefulness.
Yes I get you don't always have to play your double black spells on 3, and you have husk marauder and yasova that are all single costed, but when you neuter your deck in such a way that you physically take away nut draws of let's say Dragon Fodder, into Drana into, Ascendancy/Lilly/double cuttthroat, it just seems to be putting yourself in a disadvantageous spot to begin with, despite the raw power the cards may offer. In a deck that plays no 1 drops, you have to push yourself in such a way that curving 2 into 3 into 4 can put yourself into a gaming winning board state. To play no 1 drops and then also still have the potential to stumble on 2 and 3 and even 4, makes it so you're not only 1 turn behind but sometimes even 2 in most games. Not to mention the likelihood of a hand full of legendary creature that you can not double cast.
TL;DR
I'd recommend if you are interested in the archetype to add a few mountains to the list, mainly 2, as well as a plains and 2 forest, put your sandsteppe's down to 1/2 and add in 3 painlands, 1 Battle field Forge and 2 Caves of Koilos
Thank you for your input. I've gone on record multiple times saying that I'm not the best when it comes to building proper mana bases, so no surprise here. It just gets tiresome to tell people that every time I make a deck that uses three or more colors. I lost using the second build of the deck because I built my mana base wrong and dropped after the third round in a 5 round tourney. With this third iteration, things have gotten slightly better. I'll try it with the recommendations you gave me and see what works.
That being said, I'm not sure about Yasova Dragonclaw in the deck. She comes off as being just "cute" to me. I could see going down to two of her. But I don't necessarily belive I should go down a Drana or Liliana because of how integral they are too the deck. Liliana is the only graveyard recursion in the deck, so I want to be able to draw her when I need her. Most opponents see her as a major threat, so she's a lightning rod for numerous removal spells first chance they get. Outside of Nantuko Husk, the only other strong win con (aside from the Cutthroat angle of the deck) is to go wide with creatures and pump with Drana. I'm not opposed to upping or downing the numbers of Dranas or Lilis, I'm just explaining why I made the deck the way that I did.
EDIT: Thought about it some more and I really don't think Yasova belongs in the deck, so I will be replacing her in the deck with 3 Abzan Charms instead. If you feel so inclined, do you mind showing me what my mana base should look like now? Thanks in advance!
Tweak the numbers, change sideboard cards but I would stick towards that route. Personally you could not even play green. If you're going to play green colors I would play Rhino and if not Rhino at least sifter, if you don't want to it may just be worth dropping green all together. Your call.
I appreciate your input. The deck you posted takes my deck into a direction I'm not sure I'me willing to go. The strength of Abzan Ascendancy plus Zulaport Cutthroat alone makes me want to keep green in the deck. It's that strong. BUT, I will be playtesting the deck you posted in hopes that it will yield more positive results. I already own most of the cards you listed, save a set of Hangarbacks, so it shouldn't too much of an issue. Plus Hangarback is a powerful card, so I definitely see it as a good investment should I decide to make the deck official. Thanks again!
So I've gotten three Standard tournaments under my belt. I ran my decklists (found on Pages 2 and 11 respectively) for the first two tournaments. They did well enough, but I think some of my losses were based on misplays on my part more so than the deck itself (2-2 and 1-2-drop). But I also saw where the deck was faltering and sought to shore up it's weaknesses. This what I came up with (I went 3-1 and only lost to RG Landfall):
The first thing to note is that I decided to go four colors. The inspiration for this build came from quite a few people on this board. I remember some posters talking about a mind control build, whereby taking control of an opponent's creatures attacking with them and/or sacking them to Nantuko Husk. I also felt like my previous builds had some trouble finding "answers" and engine pieces fast enough. So I said to myself "This deck needs more card draw." As the deck started coming together, I realized that this deck shines the most when I have a ridiculous amount of creatures on the field I can sack at will to Husk and/or boardwipe. The only problem I've encountered is having the double red needed to activate Yasova Dragonclaw's ability reliably on Turn 4. This could be mitigated by adding a Sunken Hollow to the deck, BUT I agree with Patrick Chapin that the Battlelands work best when you have a combination of 17 Fetchlands/Basics. As it stands, I only have 15. I'll play around with the lands to see if I can make it work.
I'm thinking of replacing the Bone Splinters with Abzan Charm. The problem is that the 3 drop spot is clogged enough as it is. Outnumber would work, but it's too dependent on how many creatures I have out on the field.
I also play 4 colors, but in a completely different shell but the glaring issue I don't like with your deck is 9 potential tapped lands, 9 legendary creatures and 4 4 drops that don't effect the battlefield the turn they come down. Your mana base (and pardon my harshness) seems atrocious. I don't think it's possible for you to curve out on some of your draws. For example your dragon fodder draws are dependent on turn 1 tapped red land, while this is all fine, it also wants to be a smoldering marsh so you can play your double black spells on 3. If you draw a cinderglave you are then hoping too hit double runner swamp which doesn't seem all that unlikely seeing as you have 7 swamps, but then you have to also hope any remaining fetchlands you have can also find your white source to start casting your 3/4 drops in Ascendancy and Retreat this also isn't account for your white sideboard cards. If all that wasn't hard enough you now have a creature who relys on getting double blue or red to gain max usefulness.
Yes I get you don't always have to play your double black spells on 3, and you have husk marauder and yasova that are all single costed, but when you neuter your deck in such a way that you physically take away nut draws of let's say Dragon Fodder, into Drana into, Ascendancy/Lilly/double cuttthroat, it just seems to be putting yourself in a disadvantageous spot to begin with, despite the raw power the cards may offer. In a deck that plays no 1 drops, you have to push yourself in such a way that curving 2 into 3 into 4 can put yourself into a gaming winning board state. To play no 1 drops and then also still have the potential to stumble on 2 and 3 and even 4, makes it so you're not only 1 turn behind but sometimes even 2 in most games. Not to mention the likelihood of a hand full of legendary creature that you can not double cast.
TL;DR
I'd recommend if you are interested in the archetype to add a few mountains to the list, mainly 2, as well as a plains and 2 forest, put your sandsteppe's down to 1/2 and add in 3 painlands, 1 Battle field Forge and 2 Caves of Koilos
Thank you for your input. I've gone on record multiple times saying that I'm not the best when it comes to building proper mana bases, so no surprise here. It just gets tiresome to tell people that every time I make a deck that uses three or more colors. I lost using the second build of the deck because I built my mana base wrong and dropped after the third round in a 5 round tourney. With this third iteration, things have gotten slightly better. I'll try it with the recommendations you gave me and see what works.
That being said, I'm not sure about Yasova Dragonclaw in the deck. She comes off as being just "cute" to me. I could see going down to two of her. But I don't necessarily belive I should go down a Drana or Liliana because of how integral they are too the deck. Liliana IS the graveyard recursion in the deck, so I want to be able to draw her when I need her. Most opponents see her as a major threat, so she's a lightning rod for numerous removal spells first chance they get. Outside of Nantuko Husk, the only other strong win con (aside from the Cutthroat angle of the deck) is to go wide with creatures and pump with Drana. I'm not opposed to upping or downing the numbers of Dranas or Lilis, I'm just explaining why I made the deck the way that I did.
Personally would play like 1 maybe 2 husks, cut the yasova, and play some number of Butcher of the Hordes and Anafenza. Anafenza is honestly just a better version of Abzan Ascendancy to me that shuts down opposing hangarbacks and graveyard while being a 4/4 in a format of bad removal and allowing you play a more fair game. Without Rally and now especially without Yasova there is no real need for Husk as you are going to be pumping up your tokens with drana and the likes so why would you want to sac them for the 2 damage they were already going to do.
Would consider cutting down on the Edict effects mainboard but that is just me, maybe a catacomb sifter or two, or some hangarbacks. Visonary is once again your choice, but I don't see a 1/1 cantrip that necessary in a deck with no Rally, no elf synergy and no devotion/creature count mechanic in it.
Would also try to find room for Bone Splinters in the main deck. With no clear aggro plan (you're more swarm and attrition) and with no combo kill ie Rally not having any removal mainboard outside of edict effects could prove costly in a world full of mana dorks, hangarbacks and tokens. Having bone splinters to kill the one big thing they ramp into or a problem trump card such as opposing anafenza, early flyer to block drana etc seems far more beneficial then the hedge of having an edict effect in a world full of fluff and very little hexproof/protection creatures and even in the scenarios Fleshbag eats a lone rhino, you paid 3 mana to kill one of your own guys and pass turn, when you could have paid 1 to kill one of your guys and then continue to have 3 to 4 mana to make other plays.
I think you need anywhere from 13 to 16 turn 1 and 2 plays in your deck to really cash in on Ascendancy,Drana and other pump effects. Loading up your 3 drop slots especially with cards that just dwindle your board more seems like a bad place to be with drana. Would personally keep my 1 and 2 drops as cards that are easy to cast and leave something behind when they die so drana gets ultimate effectiveness.
1) Anafenza isn't a better version of Ascendancy. The cards do two totally different things for the most part. The only common "ability" is that they put counters on creatures. One when it attacks and puts one counter on a creature and the other when it enters the battlefield, it puts counters on all creatures you control. This is an important distinction to make in Magic. I know you know what both cards are capable of doing, I'm just pointing this out for clarity because this is how arguments of "strictly better" are begun. Personally, I prefer Ascendancy over Anafenza because my strategy is to swing wide and over my opponents. Butcher of the Horde is a good suggestion. People have been talking about him a lot in this thread. I hadn't considered him in the past because initially I wasn't running red in the deck at all.
2) By edict effects, I'm assuming you're talking about Abzan Charm and Fleshbag Marauder? Fair enough, I can see your reasoning on this. Originally, I was running Fleshbag to flip Liliana when I needed to, but have found the deck does this pretty easily on its own. I have been a fan of Elvish Visionary for two reasons: A)It provides immediate CA when it enters the battlefield and can be used as a blocker and B) It costs 2cc and can be easily recurred from the graveyard with Liliana and Rally. That being said, I'm not dead set on using her in the deck, but I'm surprised that you're bringing her up now, seeing as how you never spoke of her in past as being bad for my build. Catacomb Sifter and Hangarback Walker are good. I'll look into them.
So I've gotten three Standard tournaments under my belt. I ran my decklists (found on Pages 2 and 11 respectively) for the first two tournaments. They did well enough, but I think some of my losses were based on misplays on my part more so than the deck itself (2-2 and 1-2-drop). But I also saw where the deck was faltering and sought to shore up it's weaknesses. This what I came up with (I went 3-1 and only lost to RG Landfall):
The first thing to note is that I decided to go four colors. The inspiration for this build came from quite a few people on this board. I remember some posters talking about a mind control build, whereby taking control of an opponent's creatures attacking with them and/or sacking them to Nantuko Husk. I also felt like my previous builds had some trouble finding "answers" and engine pieces fast enough. So I said to myself "This deck needs more card draw." As the deck started coming together, I realized that this deck shines the most when I have a ridiculous amount of creatures on the field I can sack at will to Husk and/or boardwipe. The only problem I've encountered is having the double red needed to activate Yasova Dragonclaw's ability reliably on Turn 4. This could be mitigated by adding a Sunken Hollow to the deck, BUT I agree with Patrick Chapin that the Battlelands work best when you have a combination of 17 Fetchlands/Basics. As it stands, I only have 15. I'll play around with the lands to see if I can make it work.
I'm thinking of replacing the Bone Splinters with Abzan Charm. The problem is that the 3 drop spot is clogged enough as it is. Outnumber would work, but it's too dependent on how many creatures I have out on the field.
I also play 4 colors, but in a completely different shell but the glaring issue I don't like with your deck is 9 potential tapped lands, 9 legendary creatures and 4 4 drops that don't effect the battlefield the turn they come down. Your mana base (and pardon my harshness) seems atrocious. I don't think it's possible for you to curve out on some of your draws. For example your dragon fodder draws are dependent on turn 1 tapped red land, while this is all fine, it also wants to be a smoldering marsh so you can play your double black spells on 3. If you draw a cinderglave you are then hoping too hit double runner swamp which doesn't seem all that unlikely seeing as you have 7 swamps, but then you have to also hope any remaining fetchlands you have can also find your white source to start casting your 3/4 drops in Ascendancy and Retreat this also isn't account for your white sideboard cards. If all that wasn't hard enough you now have a creature who relys on getting double blue or red to gain max usefulness.
Yes I get you don't always have to play your double black spells on 3, and you have husk marauder and yasova that are all single costed, but when you neuter your deck in such a way that you physically take away nut draws of let's say Dragon Fodder, into Drana into, Ascendancy/Lilly/double cuttthroat, it just seems to be putting yourself in a disadvantageous spot to begin with, despite the raw power the cards may offer. In a deck that plays no 1 drops, you have to push yourself in such a way that curving 2 into 3 into 4 can put yourself into a gaming winning board state. To play no 1 drops and then also still have the potential to stumble on 2 and 3 and even 4, makes it so you're not only 1 turn behind but sometimes even 2 in most games. Not to mention the likelihood of a hand full of legendary creature that you can not double cast.
TL;DR
I'd recommend if you are interested in the archetype to add a few mountains to the list, mainly 2, as well as a plains and 2 forest, put your sandsteppe's down to 1/2 and add in 3 painlands, 1 Battle field Forge and 2 Caves of Koilos
Thank you for your input. I've gone on record multiple times saying that I'm not the best when it comes to building proper mana bases, so no surprise here. It just gets tiresome to tell people that every time I make a deck that uses three or more colors. I lost using the second build of the deck because I built my mana base wrong and dropped after the third round in a 5 round tourney. With this third iteration, things have gotten slightly better. I'll try it with the recommendations you gave me and see what works.
That being said, I'm not sure about Yasova Dragonclaw in the deck. She comes off as being just "cute" to me. I could see going down to two of her. But I don't necessarily belive I should go down a Drana or Liliana because of how integral they are too the deck. Liliana is the only graveyard recursion in the deck, so I want to be able to draw her when I need her. Most opponents see her as a major threat, so she's a lightning rod for numerous removal spells first chance they get. Outside of Nantuko Husk, the only other strong win con (aside from the Cutthroat angle of the deck) is to go wide with creatures and pump with Drana. I'm not opposed to upping or downing the numbers of Dranas or Lilis, I'm just explaining why I made the deck the way that I did.
EDIT: Thought about it some more and I really don't think Yasova belongs in the deck, so I will be replacing her in the deck with 3 Abzan Charms instead. If you feel so inclined, do you mind showing me what my mana base should look like now? Thanks in advance!
If you're running red, you need Butcher of the Horde in your list. He will give an added wincon, is another sac engine in addition to Husk, and he has the ability to drag you back from certain death and turn games around and win them by himself if he doesn't instantly eat removal. I'd say get rid of your Outpost Sieges and Emeria and replace them with 4x Butcher.
I also recommend adding in copies of Hangarback Walker. He is an amazing token producer, and able to stall aggro, and is great in the control match up too.
ALSO IMO Sultai Emissary is better than Dragon Fodder. Try playtesting with it. Manifest is an amazing ability.
Why no Bloodsoaked Champion? Because bad card is bad? I tested with him a lot last season and the guy couldn't get the job done. He's only good for maybe the turn after you've played him, but gets obsoleted the minute your opponent has a blocker. He can't block himself, so you can't use him on defense. And finally, he's a mana sink that just isn't worth it to me. I'd rather spend the mana to recur him on casting another creature spell. Just my opinion.
Why no Bloodsoaked Champion? Because bad card is bad? I tested with him a lot last season and the guy couldn't get the job done. He's only good for maybe the turn after you've played him, but gets obsoleted the minute your opponent has a blocker. He can't block himself, so you can't use him on defense. And finally, he's a mana sink that just isn't worth it to me. I'd rather spend the mana to recur him on casting another creature spell. Just my opinion.
More like great card is great! Have you ever played games where you have no cards or creatures in hand mid or late game and you keep drawing lands? This is when Champion shines. He is constant butcher food and a great way to recover off sweepers. In my experience testing and at FNMs, Bloodsoaked Champion is a versatile engine and one of the most useful cards in the deck.
Again, thanks for all the suggestions guys! I know I'm four cards short in the sideboard, but I'm pressed for time and honestly don't know what I think belongs in the those spots.
I'm sure I'm not the first to find this but I havnt seen it posted anywhere so I figured I'd share. I was doing some testing today and I found a pretty easy infinite combo.
Need to have a cutthroat and free sac outlet down. Husk being cheapest. Then liliana. Play second Lily to kill first and flip the other creating token. Then -3 to get other Lily back from yard. Pw version dies. Then sac token to flip Lily making another token and repeat.
I"m trying out a Jund splash blue list for FNM tonight. I'm trying out a pair of blazing hellhound as cutthroats 5&6, and a pair of profaner of the dead in the board to try out against opposing Hangerback shenanagins. Since I'm in 4 color with lots of fetchs I'm also trying out one infuse with the elements, and one retreat to kazandu. Both help get hangerbacks bigger in less time, and the retreat should be good against RDW style decks.
I'm sure I'm not the first to find this but I havnt seen it posted anywhere so I figured I'd share. I was doing some testing today and I found a pretty easy infinite combo.
Need to have a cutthroat and free sac outlet down. Husk being cheapest. Then liliana. Play second Lily to kill first and flip the other creating token. Then -3 to get other Lily back from yard. Pw version dies. Then sac token to flip Lily making another token and repeat.
Well today I won my local store FNM. About 18 players 4 rounds. The build is pretty much the same that I played in the PPTQ but I remove 2 den protector and put in 2 Murderous Cut. The cuts performed pretty well in the deck. I also updated the sideboard that today was like this
I'm still not really convinced. Alligned Hedron network is going out for sure, I didn't use it in the whole tournament.
The tournament were like this:
Round 1: Abzan aggro 2-0
My opponent didn't know pretty well my deck. In the first game she plays a turn 3 Anafenza but luckily I had 1 Merciless executioner that deal with her. In the second game I used Infinite obliteration and banish anafenza before she played the one in his hand so pretty fair game. Round 2: Sultai pact 2-0
Won the 2 games with a damage with creatures and finising with rally. Round 3: Atarka Landfall 2-0
Pretty weird deck with atarka's command monastery swiftspear and landfall creatures with the Temur Battle Rage and Become Inmense trick. The first game I started chumpblocking with my utility creatures and forcing him to use the spells in a defensive way. 2 Merciless executioners with a liliana callin for a third cleans up his board so I can easily build my graveyard for a final rally. Side in some removal spells and control his board presence. Round 3: Orzhov Warriors 1-1
Tribal warriors deck, pretty hard matchup and finally we go to turns in the third game because the first one was a really intense one with a lot of complicated plays.
Said that I'm almost convinced of removing the 3 collected company in favour of Taigam, but I need to test it first.
I'm sure I'm not the first to find this but I havnt seen it posted anywhere so I figured I'd share. I was doing some testing today and I found a pretty easy infinite combo.
Need to have a cutthroat and free sac outlet down. Husk being cheapest. Then liliana. Play second Lily to kill first and flip the other creating token. Then -3 to get other Lily back from yard. Pw version dies. Then sac token to flip Lily making another token and repeat.
Just got back from FNM. 3-0-1, drew in the last round. Played against Mardu Allies, Esper Dragons and GR Landfall. Will report back with results from an IQ tomorrow.
this is what i have come up with so far, not been changed that much, but still needs lots of work
advice welcomed
biggest issue is what removal do i need and possible creatures for sideboard? so far i like this deck, but its far from perfect
any kind of removal 1-4 CMC will do. preferably spell/enchant.
bone splinters, ultimate price, valorous stance, ride down, ruinous path, radiant purge, utter end, roast, reave soul are all things i am looking at but can't decide which is best for what i am running
What about you guys, what are you running? been hearing abzancrats is good.
also what are the match ups like vs established decks such as UB and WUB control, R R/G aggro, eldrazi, bring to light, other stuff.
I'm sure I'm not the first to find this but I havnt seen it posted anywhere so I figured I'd share. I was doing some testing today and I found a pretty easy infinite combo.
Need to have a cutthroat and free sac outlet down. Husk being cheapest. Then liliana. Play second Lily to kill first and flip the other creating token. Then -3 to get other Lily back from yard. Pw version dies. Then sac token to flip Lily making another token and repeat.
Trying to figure out why people play Transgress the mind over Despise/Duress? What more than 3 mana card are you planning on losing to that isn't already a creature or a planeswalker? Duress obviously worse than despise if you're worried about creatures but yeah.
Trying to figure out why people play Transgress the mind over Despise/Duress? What more than 3 mana card are you planning on losing to that isn't already a creature or a planeswalker? Duress obviously worse than despise if you're worried about creatures but yeah.
My guess? Because it's a "catch all" spell that hits ANY 3 mana spell regardless of its type. Personally, I think people are trying to use it as a new Thoughtseize not realizing there are PLENTY of 1-2 drop spells that can ruin your day.
Why no Bloodsoaked Champion? Because bad card is bad? I tested with him a lot last season and the guy couldn't get the job done. He's only good for maybe the turn after you've played him, but gets obsoleted the minute your opponent has a blocker. He can't block himself, so you can't use him on defense. And finally, he's a mana sink that just isn't worth it to me. I'd rather spend the mana to recur him on casting another creature spell. Just my opinion.
More like great card is great! Have you ever played games where you have no cards or creatures in hand mid or late game and you keep drawing lands? This is when Champion shines. He is constant butcher food and a great way to recover off sweepers. In my experience testing and at FNMs, Bloodsoaked Champion is a versatile engine and one of the most useful cards in the deck.
Well, no. If I have no cards or creatures in hand it means I probably have no board state? I need a better scenario to work with here. Do I have creatures on the battlefield or don't I? If I do, it doesn't matter if I have cards in my hand or not, only A) Do I have a creature(s) I can attack with and B) Do I have the appropriate number of lands/colors to bring him back from the graveyard? Cards in hand or not in hand are irrelevant.
That being said, I'm sure he's great Hoard fodder. I've only just begun experimenting with Hoard, but I wouldn't automatically assume Champion is an auto-include in the deck because of it, nor would I assume this of any other player's build either.
Is it really worth splashing a 3rd or a 4th color as opposed to play Black and Green only ?
The cards available in these colors already seem very very strong and it greatly reduces the HP loss caused by lands and the situation where we're stuck because we don't have lands of the color we need.
Abzan Ascendancy is absolutely worth running white at least, and at that point it's almost easier to run red for Butcher than it is to not.
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Don't like the two green pips, at least in my four-color-build, but that's a really intriguing thought for the more megamorph-based bent.
Hooded hydra has been mentioned previously. Generally agreed that it was fine as a budget replacement for hangarback but not good enough in its own right.
And additional benefit to hangarback over hydra that was overlooked before, is the ability to cast it for 0 or -0 liliana to get him back. Both of which I have done a number of times
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I appreciate your input. The deck you posted takes my deck into a direction I'm not sure I'me willing to go. The strength of Abzan Ascendancy plus Zulaport Cutthroat alone makes me want to keep green in the deck. It's that strong. BUT, I will be playtesting the deck you posted in hopes that it will yield more positive results. I already own most of the cards you listed, save a set of Hangarbacks, so it shouldn't too much of an issue. Plus Hangarback is a powerful card, so I definitely see it as a good investment should I decide to make the deck official. Thanks again!
1) Anafenza isn't a better version of Ascendancy. The cards do two totally different things for the most part. The only common "ability" is that they put counters on creatures. One when it attacks and puts one counter on a creature and the other when it enters the battlefield, it puts counters on all creatures you control. This is an important distinction to make in Magic. I know you know what both cards are capable of doing, I'm just pointing this out for clarity because this is how arguments of "strictly better" are begun. Personally, I prefer Ascendancy over Anafenza because my strategy is to swing wide and over my opponents. Butcher of the Horde is a good suggestion. People have been talking about him a lot in this thread. I hadn't considered him in the past because initially I wasn't running red in the deck at all.
2) By edict effects, I'm assuming you're talking about Abzan Charm and Fleshbag Marauder? Fair enough, I can see your reasoning on this. Originally, I was running Fleshbag to flip Liliana when I needed to, but have found the deck does this pretty easily on its own. I have been a fan of Elvish Visionary for two reasons: A)It provides immediate CA when it enters the battlefield and can be used as a blocker and B) It costs 2cc and can be easily recurred from the graveyard with Liliana and Rally. That being said, I'm not dead set on using her in the deck, but I'm surprised that you're bringing her up now, seeing as how you never spoke of her in past as being bad for my build. Catacomb Sifter and Hangarback Walker are good. I'll look into them.
EDIT: Spelling errors
Sultai Emissary does indeed look better than Dragon Fodder. I will DEFINITELY try it out.
Why no Bloodsoaked Champion? Because bad card is bad? I tested with him a lot last season and the guy couldn't get the job done. He's only good for maybe the turn after you've played him, but gets obsoleted the minute your opponent has a blocker. He can't block himself, so you can't use him on defense. And finally, he's a mana sink that just isn't worth it to me. I'd rather spend the mana to recur him on casting another creature spell. Just my opinion.
More like great card is great! Have you ever played games where you have no cards or creatures in hand mid or late game and you keep drawing lands? This is when Champion shines. He is constant butcher food and a great way to recover off sweepers. In my experience testing and at FNMs, Bloodsoaked Champion is a versatile engine and one of the most useful cards in the deck.
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Catacomb Sifter
3 Butcher of the Hoard
2 Carrier Thrall
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
INSTANTS AND SORCERIES
4 Bone Splinters
4 Dragon Fodder
ENCHANTMENTS
3 Abzan Ascendancy
3 Outpost Siege
2 Felidar Cub
4 Duress
3 Languish
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 ?
Again, thanks for all the suggestions guys! I know I'm four cards short in the sideboard, but I'm pressed for time and honestly don't know what I think belongs in the those spots.
Need to have a cutthroat and free sac outlet down. Husk being cheapest. Then liliana. Play second Lily to kill first and flip the other creating token. Then -3 to get other Lily back from yard. Pw version dies. Then sac token to flip Lily making another token and repeat.
May not be worded the best but you get the idea.
Tokens don't flip lilly
I'm still not really convinced. Alligned Hedron network is going out for sure, I didn't use it in the whole tournament.
The tournament were like this:
Round 1: Abzan aggro 2-0
My opponent didn't know pretty well my deck. In the first game she plays a turn 3 Anafenza but luckily I had 1 Merciless executioner that deal with her. In the second game I used Infinite obliteration and banish anafenza before she played the one in his hand so pretty fair game.
Round 2: Sultai pact 2-0
Won the 2 games with a damage with creatures and finising with rally.
Round 3: Atarka Landfall 2-0
Pretty weird deck with atarka's command monastery swiftspear and landfall creatures with the Temur Battle Rage and Become Inmense trick. The first game I started chumpblocking with my utility creatures and forcing him to use the spells in a defensive way. 2 Merciless executioners with a liliana callin for a third cleans up his board so I can easily build my graveyard for a final rally. Side in some removal spells and control his board presence.
Round 3: Orzhov Warriors 1-1
Tribal warriors deck, pretty hard matchup and finally we go to turns in the third game because the first one was a really intense one with a lot of complicated plays.
Said that I'm almost convinced of removing the 3 collected company in favour of Taigam, but I need to test it first.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
Lili also can't reanimate herself
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4-color-value-town/
EDIT: woops, didn't mean to double post
2 plains
3 swamp
3 mountain
3 caves of koilos
2 shambling vent
4 nomad outpost
1 smoldering marsh
1 wooded foothills
1 bloodstained mire
2 outpost siege
1 vampiric rites
2 mardu ascendancy
3 crackling doom (main)
3 stasis snare (maybe?)
3 ruinous path (maybe?
3 kolaghan's command
1 damnable pact
1 gideon ally of zendikar
2 liliana heretical healer
4 butcher of the horde
1 flamewake phoenix
2 smothering abomination
2 drana, liberator of malakir
4 carrier thrall
4 zulaport cutthroat
2 hangarback walker
4 bloodsoaked champion
1 obnixilis reignited
2 self inflicted wound
1 radiant flames
1 tragic arrogance
1 stasis snare
2 roast
1 dragonlord kolaghan
1 flamewake phoenix
4 transgress the mind
this is what i have come up with so far, not been changed that much, but still needs lots of work
advice welcomed
biggest issue is what removal do i need and possible creatures for sideboard? so far i like this deck, but its far from perfect
any kind of removal 1-4 CMC will do. preferably spell/enchant.
bone splinters, ultimate price, valorous stance, ride down, ruinous path, radiant purge, utter end, roast, reave soul are all things i am looking at but can't decide which is best for what i am running
What about you guys, what are you running? been hearing abzancrats is good.
also what are the match ups like vs established decks such as UB and WUB control, R R/G aggro, eldrazi, bring to light, other stuff.
Have you ever actually read Lilly?
My guess? Because it's a "catch all" spell that hits ANY 3 mana spell regardless of its type. Personally, I think people are trying to use it as a new Thoughtseize not realizing there are PLENTY of 1-2 drop spells that can ruin your day.
Well, no. If I have no cards or creatures in hand it means I probably have no board state? I need a better scenario to work with here. Do I have creatures on the battlefield or don't I? If I do, it doesn't matter if I have cards in my hand or not, only A) Do I have a creature(s) I can attack with and B) Do I have the appropriate number of lands/colors to bring him back from the graveyard? Cards in hand or not in hand are irrelevant.
That being said, I'm sure he's great Hoard fodder. I've only just begun experimenting with Hoard, but I wouldn't automatically assume Champion is an auto-include in the deck because of it, nor would I assume this of any other player's build either.
The mana can be better in 4 color than it is in golari
Abzan Ascendancy is absolutely worth running white at least, and at that point it's almost easier to run red for Butcher than it is to not.