I've been brewing for post rotation. My version is far from polished, but I think it shows a good direction to take the deck. As of today, I see three important cards for the deck in BFZ. They are...
Above is my current brew. A few things worth mentioning...
Hidden Dragonslayers name should be Hidden Rhinoslayer. Its good in almost every matchup. Against aggro, you run it out as a bear and trade it off to slow down the game. All midrange decks have targets. Most control decks will have valid targets.
Managorger Hydra is only ok. Its just a big dumb beater that dies to removal. It doesn't do anything to stop aggro and midrange/control just remove it. Having three leaps is the only reason its useful. Opponents are put in the position where they have to spend their removal and you just draw into another creature.
Hooded Hydra is good enough. It has synergy with everything, and is a great top deck in the late game. More morphs is always good too.
Because we lost the elf, keeping the curve low is incredibly important. But its also worth noting that this deck will almost never run out of things to do. Between morph shenanigans, Leap, and 10 X-cost spells, its very hard to run out of gas.
Retreat may seem unimpressive, but its absolutely besties with Walker, Hooded Hydra, Servant, and Scales.
This build is capable of some very absurd openings. I maintain that the most dangerous opening in standard today is T1:Scales into T2:Walker into T3:Leap. You end up with a large creature that doesn't die to removal and represent +4 CA on board. the Walker will block aggro decks all day, and control has a hard time out CAing you.
I haven't put much thought into the sideboard or into making room for a removal package. This will need to be done eventually, but I will wait for full spoiler before I start that process.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Seige has less synergy with scales, costs more, forces you to choose the mode on cast, and is harder to cast. With Retreat, I can go back and forth between stopping my opponents from dealing damage and spreading counters as the pace of the game changes. I agree that Seige is great, but I'm not sure choosing between the two is as easy as you imply.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I personally see Retreat as a sideboard card to replace Siege in the fast aggro matchups. The lifegain is better than the extra counter and it comes down a turn earlier. Main deck though I still see Siege being our go to enchantment if you want to have a hard to deal with threat maker on the field.
My initial thoughts at what we have gained from BFZ for the deck.
4 1-drops -- My version is a little bigger and a little slower, and I don't want cards that are low impact without Hardened Scales in play. Servant of the Scale is just not powerful enough. If there was a good 1-drop I'd play it but alas.
17 2-drops -- most of these don't actually get played on turn 2, so it's necessary for the curve to play all of them.
4. Citadel Siege -- the deck is vulnerable to Languish, and this card helps fight that threat by allowing you to attack for a bunch without committing a bunch to the board. It also puts stuff out of range. There is a surprising amount of late game power and inevitability with the Denmist package and 8 huge tramplers. It's pretty unfair for a deck that tops out at CC4.
Surrak the Hunt Caller -- there are lots of lines that give you exactly 8 power. Avatar + Surrak, Managorger + Scales or opponent spell + Surrak. Gives the deck some ways of closing the game out quickly so you don't lose to Ugin.
I think the most important thing is this deck just plays "good cards." You topdeck any one of these spells and you're not unhappy. The synergies exist, but they aren't required.
Have I missed any cards? Don't agree with some of my choices? I'd love to know!
My deck is close to yours. Evolutionary Leap is bad because we're putting counters on our creatures, so trading them out for fresh ones is pretty bad most of the time. Your mana base is better but 23 land is more comfortable with morphs to sink, IMO. I don't like Valorous Stance because we don't really fear huge beatsticks like Siege Rhino, since we have huger beatsticks like Managorger Hydra and whatever we voltron up with Citadel Siege. Tasigur is nice to hit, but you can fight him with Command anyway. The indestructibility is hard to replace I'll grant, but if they wipe the board we're a Siege activation/Raptor boost/ Hangarback flood away from building it back up again, so it's not critical. Plus it doesn't protect against Languish.
I've been brewing this deck since last Friday and it does seem like it could be one of the premier aggro decks in the new format. This is what I've got so far:
Just a word on manabases. Most of you seem to be playing 4 Canopy Vista, but I think this is a mistake if you're trying to be as aggressive as possible (reason being that it's very awkward in your opening hand when you want to curve out). I like a 2/2 split of strand/vista, that way at least you can fetch a plains on t2 for a hangarback or stance/drom-comm. I still have 5 lands that are awkward in my opening hand though, since I really want to go Forest, Forest, Vista to enable 3 one-drops or a t2 Avatar. Maybe drop one the strands for the 10th forest?
Has anyone else been testing the most aggressive versions of this deck? In my games so far I haven't loved Citadel Siege, although I can definitely see the merits of the Deathmist/Den Protector package.
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canopy vista - Good mana fixing is good
retreat to kazandu - Multiple modes, interesting synergy
endless one - Does it need explanation.
3 Endless One
3 Servant of the Scale
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Den Protector
3 Hidden Dragonslayer
4 Avatar of the Resolute
2 Managorger Hydra
2 Deathmist Raptor
3 Hooded Hydra
4 Hardened Scales
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Retreat to Kazandu
Land
10 Forest
4 Plains
2 Canopy Vista
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
Above is my current brew. A few things worth mentioning...
This build is capable of some very absurd openings. I maintain that the most dangerous opening in standard today is T1:Scales into T2:Walker into T3:Leap. You end up with a large creature that doesn't die to removal and represent +4 CA on board. the Walker will block aggro decks all day, and control has a hard time out CAing you.
I haven't put much thought into the sideboard or into making room for a removal package. This will need to be done eventually, but I will wait for full spoiler before I start that process.
Thoughts?
- Manite
Seige has less synergy with scales, costs more, forces you to choose the mode on cast, and is harder to cast. With Retreat, I can go back and forth between stopping my opponents from dealing damage and spreading counters as the pace of the game changes. I agree that Seige is great, but I'm not sure choosing between the two is as easy as you imply.
- Manite
My initial thoughts at what we have gained from BFZ for the deck.
G/W: Endless one, Retreat to Kozandu, Overgrowth Champion(still needs testing), and Woodland Wanderer.
Abzan: Drana, Liberator of Malakir.
Bant: Skyrider Elf, and Lumbering Falls.
5 Plains
4 GW Tango
4 Windswept Heath
4 Den Protector
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dromoka's Command
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
4 Managorger Hydra
4 Citadel Siege
4 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
Unusual Choices:
4 1-drops -- My version is a little bigger and a little slower, and I don't want cards that are low impact without Hardened Scales in play. Servant of the Scale is just not powerful enough. If there was a good 1-drop I'd play it but alas.
17 2-drops -- most of these don't actually get played on turn 2, so it's necessary for the curve to play all of them.
4. Citadel Siege -- the deck is vulnerable to Languish, and this card helps fight that threat by allowing you to attack for a bunch without committing a bunch to the board. It also puts stuff out of range. There is a surprising amount of late game power and inevitability with the Denmist package and 8 huge tramplers. It's pretty unfair for a deck that tops out at CC4.
Surrak the Hunt Caller -- there are lots of lines that give you exactly 8 power. Avatar + Surrak, Managorger + Scales or opponent spell + Surrak. Gives the deck some ways of closing the game out quickly so you don't lose to Ugin.
I think the most important thing is this deck just plays "good cards." You topdeck any one of these spells and you're not unhappy. The synergies exist, but they aren't required.
My deck is close to yours. Evolutionary Leap is bad because we're putting counters on our creatures, so trading them out for fresh ones is pretty bad most of the time. Your mana base is better but 23 land is more comfortable with morphs to sink, IMO. I don't like Valorous Stance because we don't really fear huge beatsticks like Siege Rhino, since we have huger beatsticks like Managorger Hydra and whatever we voltron up with Citadel Siege. Tasigur is nice to hit, but you can fight him with Command anyway. The indestructibility is hard to replace I'll grant, but if they wipe the board we're a Siege activation/Raptor boost/ Hangarback flood away from building it back up again, so it's not critical. Plus it doesn't protect against Languish.
Here is a Abzan colored Collected Company list that I have been testing for reference.
4 Servant of the Scale
2 Hangarback Walker
4 Avatar of the Resolute
3 Den Protector
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
2 Undergrowth Champion
4 Managorger Hydra
4 Hardened Scales
2 Citadel Siege
Spells:7
3 Dromoka's Command
4 Collected Company
Lands:22
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Canopy Vista
3 Sandsteepe Citadel
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
I've been brewing this deck since last Friday and it does seem like it could be one of the premier aggro decks in the new format. This is what I've got so far:
4 Undergrowth Champion
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Honored Hierarch
4 Managorger Hydra
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Servant of the Scale
2 Abzan Falconer
4 Hardened Scales
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Valorous Stance
2 Feat of Resistance
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Canopy Vista
9 Forest
1 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
Just a word on manabases. Most of you seem to be playing 4 Canopy Vista, but I think this is a mistake if you're trying to be as aggressive as possible (reason being that it's very awkward in your opening hand when you want to curve out). I like a 2/2 split of strand/vista, that way at least you can fetch a plains on t2 for a hangarback or stance/drom-comm. I still have 5 lands that are awkward in my opening hand though, since I really want to go Forest, Forest, Vista to enable 3 one-drops or a t2 Avatar. Maybe drop one the strands for the 10th forest?
Has anyone else been testing the most aggressive versions of this deck? In my games so far I haven't loved Citadel Siege, although I can definitely see the merits of the Deathmist/Den Protector package.