I have a feeling your taking me literally and think that I'm saying that thinning does not occur. I didn't say that. I said that the math doesn't support it. As in, you take a lot more damage than it would ever be worth to improve the quality of your draw step by the amount that it does.
Also, I guess you don't actually want help with your Esper matchup?
Statistically, it helps a little but people don't consider the life loss as a downside when they really should. There are quite a few decks that you don't want to lose life against at all(mirror match, atarka sligh,jeskai,mardu etc) where those little points of damage can often times kill you a turn early when (say for example you needed one more turn to burn them out).
Splashing and mana fixing is really the only reason to be running fetches in decks that need it such as atarka sligh. It is so painful with atarka sligh when you get stuck with a mana confluence, pain land, and one source of regular mana. Double points if you get two mana confluence and a pain land.
to sum things up, I like having the full life as if you don't draw well that extra turn can mean the difference between winning and getting rhino'd.
I'm running a token swarm deck at the moment (list to follow of Friday/Saturday after the next FNM), with four each of Fodder and Outburst. Kolaghan Forerunners is a surprise package, but I was wondering whether trying a pair of Descent of Dragons could be an idea - basically swarm with token makers, turn 6 if needed hit with DoD, swing for lots in the air...
So, I was thinking about my previous post, and here's a deck idea I put together. It revolves around a lot of scrying to get the cards in hand, and in play testing it seems to work even with a 1 or 2 land starting hand. I put DoD in the side instead... I'm also thinking that Prophetic Flamespeaker could be a good one to stick a couple of in there, especially with the chance of sticking a Titan's Strength on it, but don't know what to cut. Maybe a 2/2 split of it and Forerunners?
I don't think scry makes Bolt of Keranos good enough. Should swap those for Wild Slash. Also consider making room for Foundry Street Denizen. The card is very good with the token producers.
Yeah, I currently run 4 FSDs in my deck. I was just fiddling with the scry idea - basically have lots of scry game 1, then because Keranos isn't brilliant, then would side them out in game 2. I've run a few tests online, and it seems to survive 1-2 land hands quite well, but I do miss my Denizens! Maybe run +2 Vaultbreakers for looting, +2 Denizens , -4 Bolts, then +2 Bolts in the side in case I need to rummage more...?
I think between Strength and Jet you have scry covered. There's diminishing returns if you have so many that you end up getting redundant scrys. 3 mana is just not a good rate for 3 damage and scry isn't worth a full mana. For that rate you'd want to be drawing a card.
I'd want the full set of Stoke as they are the best with tokens. Vaultbreakers could be interesting. Though if you add them main you might want to go to 22x land.
I agree about Stoke. So, how about running -4 Bolt of Keranos, +1 Stoke, +1 Vaultbreaker, +2 Foundry Street... That could also work. I think that, between only one Vaultbreaker and the scry, 21 land should be OK. I'll get the cards together and see what happens...
For fun, SB'ing examples (though haphazard) and maybe inspiration to try out MODO because if I can go inf. (heck even make money) even with all my mistakes - you can as well!.
Doesn't sound like your asking for advice on the build, but I can't help but notice the Bloodstained Mires. Definitely not worth it.
I would agree, if he wasn't running 3x Become Immense. Running one-color fetches for thinning is not worth it, but running them for Delve fodder is legit.
Doesn't sound like your asking for advice on the build, but I can't help but notice the Bloodstained Mires. Definitely not worth it.
I would agree, if he wasn't running 3x Become Immense. Running one-color fetches for thinning is not worth it, but running them for Delve fodder is legit.
Yep, that was the plan
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Doesn't sound like your asking for advice on the build, but I can't help but notice the Bloodstained Mires. Definitely not worth it.
I would agree, if he wasn't running 3x Become Immense. Running one-color fetches for thinning is not worth it, but running them for Delve fodder is legit.
I noticed the Become Immense. I was going to comment on the awkward number, but I figured it might be an interesting build to try. As far as the Mires, I don't think even the delve cards makes it worth the extra damage. It doesn't cleanly enable them (like it would with say.. Grim Lavamancer) and our mana base is already pretty painful with the playset of Mana Confluence. Off the mires alone we're about 43% to take an additional 1 damage + another 15% to take 2 seeing + 2% for 3 only seeing 12 cards (turn 5/6). So out of the 60% total probability we take more damage by turn 5/6, how often will the 1-2 extra delve fodder make a difference? How often will the 1-2 life matter? It's fairly difficult to quantify it outside of a simple convergent probability, but as is generally the case with that sort of analysis, it doesn't really look good for including it IMHO.
Hi I am new to standard. I just formed atarka's sligh recently. I played modern affinity and burn deck. there is a few observation I noticed, if we are to run splash of black and green, cutting down on mana confluence to 2 might be good. I like the idea of delve immense. another option I am thinking of is delve murderous cut against dragons and pro red creatures like master of waves. with the splash of black, we are opened to sideboard option of duress against the control match-up. current mono red sligh composition is very similar to modern burn with 14 creatures and remainder burns or token generator. therefore, thinning the land is a good option although it might seems insignificant, but over 10 turns, it is more pronounced.
another cards that I find interesting to toyed with is kolaghan forerunners. I felt that it is a potential ball lightning with all our token producer and can trample through blockers and make become immense even more attractive. I foresee that post rotation, it will have a huge impact on our deck. another will be ire shaman. the card advantage and the almost unblockable ability makes it attractive. I wondered did any try playing with it?
with regards to damage from fetch, I felt that if you are not making them feeling painful than you are, you are most likely on the losing side anyway. the only difference will be against mirror where life points matter slightly more.
most mono red builds run 18+ creatures, splashing for black so you can duress vs control will just slow you down, and besides, if you're playing mono red/sligh and it already is on turn 10, you're probably on the losing side anyway.
Splashing for Duress is usually a bad idea in general. It's a good card when you can reliably cast it early (meaning a deck where black is the primary color, or one where you just have really good mana) but it's a bad card when you have to wait until later. Atarka's Command and Become Immense are more splashable because they make more sense as later plays, so you have more time to find the right color.
Also, who is playing Master of Waves in this format? I haven't seen any mainstream deck doing that.
Also, who is playing Master of Waves in this format? I haven't seen any mainstream deck doing that.
Mono Blue Devotion and Blue Collected Company. well, not exactly mainstream but they do pop out once in a while. i have a friend who uses those types of decks. in fact, we played FNM yesterday and my final match was against him. i intentionally lost because he needed the points for WMCQ. but Atarka Red/RDW is practically dead once MOW resolves with a couple or more tokens.
my point of duress and murderous cut is more to take out their sweeper and such. murderous cut help us deal with ojutai. or creature with toughness more than 5 and flying. we may be fast, but control often have ways to slow us down. same when dealing with green devotion. they can board in hornet nest against us and we are dead in our attack. RDW is not burn deck, our creatures need to be able to deal bulk of the damage before we burn them out. therefore duress and murderous cut are some options i don't think we should overlook. the 10 turn that i mentioned is metaphoric. it can happen when you are not able to punch through with your creatures or you lose your board to a timely sweeper like anger of the god, crux of fate and such. i might be new, but i am not ignorant of the meta or new to piloting such decks. i would encourage you to think deeper on match-up where certain cards to hose you wellor you have not out against it and such. even during extended season, goblin bidding also play with some black cards and such. therefore i see no reason why we can't do the same. the fundamental are similar. we try to push for early game damage, a duress to impede them in their tempo and remove a key card against us and such. no result does not means not viable or not strong. it is just that most are still playing traditional list and list that have already give result. the fear of uncharted territory make us unwilling to explore new ideas and such.
You beat G/R Dragons? Twice? That match-up is normally terrible for me. How'd the games play out and how did you sideboard? I just find that they hold the ground too well or ramp into big, hard to deal with threats too quickly.
Thinking about building this list. It's almost exactly the same as one that won a tournament. I don't remember which, but they played it on the SCG channel versus series. I changed the sideboard a little and that's about it. Thoughts?
You beat G/R Dragons? Twice? That match-up is normally terrible for me. How'd the games play out and how did you sideboard? I just find that they hold the ground too well or ramp into big, hard to deal with threats too quickly.
sorry was not able to post the detailed report since I was too lazy lol. i'll post in as much as I could remember.
Rd. 1 vs esper dragons
lost game 1 having to mull to 5, kept a hand of a foundry street denizen and monastery and 3 lands. did not drew anything useful after that.
game 2 was a t4 kill with foundry street, monastery, eidolon and some burn.
game 3 was crucial. opponent has elspeth in play, made tokens, casted another elspeth then made tokens for 6 blockers. opponent was down to 3, i have 3 tokens in play, hall of triumph in play, i have 2 lightning berserkers in hand and an outpost siege, 3 lands in play, topdecked mountain, cast outpost siege for dragons, opponent conceded
rd. 2 gr dragons
i was on the play, game 1 was won easily with foundry, 2x monastery and a heelcutter,
game 2 was weird, t1 oponent plays forest, i played foundry, t2 opponent cast den pro, my turn i cast fodder attacked with foundry, surprised he did not block, took 3, then his turn, he cast another den pro, and he attacked again with another den pro, i just took the damage. next turn i cast rabblemaster, he never blocked the foundry again, next turn i casted monastery and threw a lightning strike to the face.
rd 3 gr dragons
game 1 was owned since i was on the play, game 2 i lost because of 2 thunderbreak regent, game 3 was lucky cos he was mana screwed with 2 lands, he only found third land, which was a mana confluence, after a few turns so i was able to establish board presence quickly.
rd 4 abzan, opponent conceded as he was going somewhere else
rd 5. big red, can't remember much as I was nervous the whole time since it's the last match of the day...went into 3 games, owning game 3 with a fodder/hordeling outburst hall of triumph combo so yeah, 5-0
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I have a feeling your taking me literally and think that I'm saying that thinning does not occur. I didn't say that. I said that the math doesn't support it. As in, you take a lot more damage than it would ever be worth to improve the quality of your draw step by the amount that it does.
Also, I guess you don't actually want help with your Esper matchup?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Splashing and mana fixing is really the only reason to be running fetches in decks that need it such as atarka sligh. It is so painful with atarka sligh when you get stuck with a mana confluence, pain land, and one source of regular mana. Double points if you get two mana confluence and a pain land.
to sum things up, I like having the full life as if you don't draw well that extra turn can mean the difference between winning and getting rhino'd.
21 Mountain
Token makers (8)
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Dragon Fodder
Other creatures (13)
1 Lightning Berserker
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Kolaghan Forerunners
2 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Titan's Strength
4 Magma Jet
4 Bolt of Keranos
Other damage (6)
3 Lightning Strike
3 Stoke the Flames
2 Shatter
2 Fated Conflagration
2 Roast
2 Impact Tremors
2 Magmatic Chasm
2 Vaultbreaker
2 Descent of the Dragons
1 Goblin Heelcutter
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I'd want the full set of Stoke as they are the best with tokens. Vaultbreakers could be interesting. Though if you add them main you might want to go to 22x land.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
here's my deck list if anybody's interested:
21 Mountains
Creatures
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Foundry Street Denizen
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Lightning Berserker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Goblin Heelcutter
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the FLames
4 Wild Slash
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Searin Blood
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Roast
3 Arc Lightning
3 Outpost Siege
1 Magmatic Chasm
Not sure I'm posting this in the right place since Mono-red and Red-Green are slightly different but here is what I was playing:
7 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
Creatures 14
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Lightning Berserker
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Atarka's Command
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Wild Slash
3 Become Immense
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Searing Blood
4 Roast
2 Goblin Heelcutter
1 Vaultbreaker
Standard Single Elimination (8-Man) Video Report:
G1 (RG)Atarka Sligh vs Red Devo Standard SE 8283174
G2 (RG)Atarka Sligh vs (WBG)Abzan Midrange Standard SE 8283174
G3 (RG)Atarka Sligh vs (WBR)Mardu Standard SE 8283174
^Click to watch
Why bother watching these video?
For fun, SB'ing examples (though haphazard) and maybe inspiration to try out MODO because if I can go inf. (heck even make money) even with all my mistakes - you can as well!.
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here
Doesn't sound like your asking for advice on the build, but I can't help but notice the Bloodstained Mires. Definitely not worth it.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I would agree, if he wasn't running 3x Become Immense. Running one-color fetches for thinning is not worth it, but running them for Delve fodder is legit.
Cheers
Yep, that was the plan
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here
I noticed the Become Immense. I was going to comment on the awkward number, but I figured it might be an interesting build to try. As far as the Mires, I don't think even the delve cards makes it worth the extra damage. It doesn't cleanly enable them (like it would with say.. Grim Lavamancer) and our mana base is already pretty painful with the playset of Mana Confluence. Off the mires alone we're about 43% to take an additional 1 damage + another 15% to take 2 seeing + 2% for 3 only seeing 12 cards (turn 5/6). So out of the 60% total probability we take more damage by turn 5/6, how often will the 1-2 extra delve fodder make a difference? How often will the 1-2 life matter? It's fairly difficult to quantify it outside of a simple convergent probability, but as is generally the case with that sort of analysis, it doesn't really look good for including it IMHO.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
another cards that I find interesting to toyed with is kolaghan forerunners. I felt that it is a potential ball lightning with all our token producer and can trample through blockers and make become immense even more attractive. I foresee that post rotation, it will have a huge impact on our deck. another will be ire shaman. the card advantage and the almost unblockable ability makes it attractive. I wondered did any try playing with it?
with regards to damage from fetch, I felt that if you are not making them feeling painful than you are, you are most likely on the losing side anyway. the only difference will be against mirror where life points matter slightly more.
Also, who is playing Master of Waves in this format? I haven't seen any mainstream deck doing that.
Mono Blue Devotion and Blue Collected Company. well, not exactly mainstream but they do pop out once in a while. i have a friend who uses those types of decks. in fact, we played FNM yesterday and my final match was against him. i intentionally lost because he needed the points for WMCQ. but Atarka Red/RDW is practically dead once MOW resolves with a couple or more tokens.
Here's my list:
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Goblin Heelcutter
4 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Dragon Fodder
1 Hall of Triumph
20 Mountains
4 Searing Blood
4 Roast
1 Outpost Siege
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Arc Lightning
Rd1 vs. Esper Control
Rd2 vs. G/R Dragons
Rd3 vs. G/R Dragons
Rd4 vs. Abzan Midrange
Rd5. vs. Big Red
21 Mountain
Creature (22)
4 Lightning Berzerker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Titan's Strength
3 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
3 Searing Blood
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Rending Volley
3 Roast
2 Scouring Sands
3 Arc Lightning
2 Bathe in Dragonfire
3 Outpost Siege
sorry was not able to post the detailed report since I was too lazy lol. i'll post in as much as I could remember.
Rd. 1 vs esper dragons
lost game 1 having to mull to 5, kept a hand of a foundry street denizen and monastery and 3 lands. did not drew anything useful after that.
game 2 was a t4 kill with foundry street, monastery, eidolon and some burn.
game 3 was crucial. opponent has elspeth in play, made tokens, casted another elspeth then made tokens for 6 blockers. opponent was down to 3, i have 3 tokens in play, hall of triumph in play, i have 2 lightning berserkers in hand and an outpost siege, 3 lands in play, topdecked mountain, cast outpost siege for dragons, opponent conceded
rd. 2 gr dragons
i was on the play, game 1 was won easily with foundry, 2x monastery and a heelcutter,
game 2 was weird, t1 oponent plays forest, i played foundry, t2 opponent cast den pro, my turn i cast fodder attacked with foundry, surprised he did not block, took 3, then his turn, he cast another den pro, and he attacked again with another den pro, i just took the damage. next turn i cast rabblemaster, he never blocked the foundry again, next turn i casted monastery and threw a lightning strike to the face.
rd 3 gr dragons
game 1 was owned since i was on the play, game 2 i lost because of 2 thunderbreak regent, game 3 was lucky cos he was mana screwed with 2 lands, he only found third land, which was a mana confluence, after a few turns so i was able to establish board presence quickly.
rd 4 abzan, opponent conceded as he was going somewhere else
rd 5. big red, can't remember much as I was nervous the whole time since it's the last match of the day...went into 3 games, owning game 3 with a fodder/hordeling outburst hall of triumph combo so yeah, 5-0