I can see the appeal, but I don't think the efficiency is worth the extra cost. We already have a wealth of good options. Gonna be a soul crushing top deck late and it's uncastable.
It really depends upon your meta. If you're fighting green devotion or some deck that just goes above 3 cmc it isn't good. If all you fight on a regular basis are abzan, control, white red,ground decks with 3cmc or less or even mono red it can help you tremendously.
On the play it is awesome casting turn 2. On the draw it can be so so but still attracts a kill spell.
The deck I've been struggling against at FNM is a red/white heroic type build -- Monastery Swiftspears, Hero of Iroas, Artful Maneuver, Temur Battle Rage, etc. I end up taking 16 points of damage in one round alone due to the trample (can't exactly remember which creature he used with Trample, but it was very much there) and double strike effects; it's one of the few decks I've played that actually feels faster than RDW in some ways. Any ideas for how to tackle this?
Timing on removal is key vs any heroic deck. It's usually better to main phase if they are tapped out. Otherwise it's pretty easy for them to blow us out with God's Willing or even just a pump/heroic trigger out of damage range. They have very few threats generally, as a large amount of their deck is pump. Without blue, they'll have a harder time reloading too. Just play more control oriented, kill their threats, side in Searing Blood and Roast, etc.
I can see the appeal, but I don't think the efficiency is worth the extra cost. We already have a wealth of good options. Gonna be a soul crushing top deck late and it's uncastable.
It is. That's why I pulled them (in reference to collateral damage)
I didn't even topdeck one, I top decked two in a row and lost a game 3 that may have otherwise been winnable. I think there are better and safer plays than collateral damage. My $0.02
I took this deck to the PPTQ my LGS had yesterday and top 8ed with it. In the end I decided not to splash green but the deck still felt quite powerful.
Some of the numbers here may seem a little weird but it worked out perfectly fine. A lot of these decks seem to have moved away from Titan's Strength but it was an all-star for me. In the early game it gives you a good head start while setting up your draw, and in the late game when you attack with everything you can put it on an unblocked creature to push through damage or a blocked one if you absolutely need to kill their blocker.
In the swiss rounds I played two Abzan control decks, Bant, RG Dragons, and the mirror. My only loss was to RG Dragons which was an extremely difficult matchup. Everything else felt pretty beatable and for the most part the matches weren't too hard.
The Top 8 was rife with green decks. Aside from myself, there was one Esper control deck and everything else was Abzan or RG. Unfortunately I lost in the quarterfinals to Abzan megamorph, but I think it had more to do with my play than the strength of my deck. I kept a really suspect hand game 1 and after an embarrassing Thoughtseize my opponent put the game away pretty easily. I managed to win game 2 but in game 3 he was able to get his Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor engine going and I couldn't come back.
I can say pretty confidently that the weakest cards in this deck are by far the token generators. They're much better if you play Atarka's Command or Hall of Triumph. In this deck their purpose is to combo with Denizen and Stoke, but those can be good even without the token-making cards. I don't know if I should cut them entirely but I think shaving some could be correct for this particular build. I never really liked Hall and I personally prefer mono-red to the splash green version.
I took Atarka Red to a 4-5 finish at GP Toronto. Not impressive, I know, but I played it out. I wrote a tournament report here.
Over the day I four punts, one of which didn't really hurt me (playing creatures out of sequence to maximize damage), one which was epic (not resideboarding after I realized what my opponent was playing), one miscalculation in combat math, and one other that I can't remember off the top of my head. Atarka's Command was backbreaking when my opponent couldn't answer it or wasn't expecting it, and it was brutal on me as well (I played the mirror three times).
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Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
I managed to get something like this into the Top 8 of an rPTQ but I honestly haven't figured out the sideboard fully (or a plan vs Den Protector + Deathmist Raptor decks). What does everyone else do?
He's nice against Control and that's mostly it. You get the off times that dashing for R is nice with a pair of Foundry Streets. I run 1x and probably wouldn't want anymore. I find that I cut him against most of the creature decks because he trades out too easily.
It's a bit like Frenzied Goblin in that sense. He's good against he other half of the field.
Berserker has been good for me. It combos nicely with denizen can be a mana dump late game. I've been playing 2 just as a hasty mana sink. But against other aggressive creature decks he comes out for searing bloods or eidolon.
Honestly thinking of taking an AIR build with a transformative (rabblemaster red)sideboard and seeing if I can steal the win a box fnm this week. Meta seems soft to kill someone by turn 4 style red.
Concerning the Green decks, I'm finding 2x Magmatic Chasm quite good along side the normal Roast 3 or 4-of.
Before Dragons came out I decided that Heelcutter was straight better than Rabblemaster. They got relegated to my sideboard then cut altogether. I would consider bringing them back as a sideboard card vs control but was never impressed by them.
Also I really like Lightning Berserker and was running 4 of them. They can deal a bunch of damage, play excellently vs control, and trade with shockingly big creatures.
No point in running fetches if you do not have a splash. The math doesn't support running them for thinning only.
I've won several games against other red decks by one or two damage because they took a little too much damage from their "thinning" fetches.
The math 100% supports thinning. It's up to you whether you value the life more than the fraction of the card each fetch offers. If you can completely ignore your life total, fetches only for thinning is probably fine; otherwise, it takes to long to reap any benefit.
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Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I've been seeing lots of decks online maindecking eidolons...any thoughts on this?
On the play it is awesome casting turn 2. On the draw it can be so so but still attracts a kill spell.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
It is. That's why I pulled them (in reference to collateral damage)
I didn't even topdeck one, I top decked two in a row and lost a game 3 that may have otherwise been winnable. I think there are better and safer plays than collateral damage. My $0.02
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
2 Lightning Berserker
2 Mardu Scout
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Goblin Heelcutter
3 Titan's Strength
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Lightning Strike
2 Hordeling Outburst
4 Stoke the Flames
20 Mountain
4 Roast
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Searing Blood
2 Arc Lightning
1 Scouring Sands
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Some of the numbers here may seem a little weird but it worked out perfectly fine. A lot of these decks seem to have moved away from Titan's Strength but it was an all-star for me. In the early game it gives you a good head start while setting up your draw, and in the late game when you attack with everything you can put it on an unblocked creature to push through damage or a blocked one if you absolutely need to kill their blocker.
In the swiss rounds I played two Abzan control decks, Bant, RG Dragons, and the mirror. My only loss was to RG Dragons which was an extremely difficult matchup. Everything else felt pretty beatable and for the most part the matches weren't too hard.
The Top 8 was rife with green decks. Aside from myself, there was one Esper control deck and everything else was Abzan or RG. Unfortunately I lost in the quarterfinals to Abzan megamorph, but I think it had more to do with my play than the strength of my deck. I kept a really suspect hand game 1 and after an embarrassing Thoughtseize my opponent put the game away pretty easily. I managed to win game 2 but in game 3 he was able to get his Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor engine going and I couldn't come back.
I can say pretty confidently that the weakest cards in this deck are by far the token generators. They're much better if you play Atarka's Command or Hall of Triumph. In this deck their purpose is to combo with Denizen and Stoke, but those can be good even without the token-making cards. I don't know if I should cut them entirely but I think shaving some could be correct for this particular build. I never really liked Hall and I personally prefer mono-red to the splash green version.
That being said, the monored version seems like it goes a little bigger and the wide boards are not as useful without command,
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Over the day I four punts, one of which didn't really hurt me (playing creatures out of sequence to maximize damage), one which was epic (not resideboarding after I realized what my opponent was playing), one miscalculation in combat math, and one other that I can't remember off the top of my head. Atarka's Command was backbreaking when my opponent couldn't answer it or wasn't expecting it, and it was brutal on me as well (I played the mirror three times).
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
1 Frenzied Goblin
1 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
Spells
4 Wild Slash
4 Atarka's Command
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Lightning Strike
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Stoke the Flames
1 Become Immense
1 Forest
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain
2 Magmatic Chasm
2 Scouring Sands
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Roast
3 Searing Blood
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
Its interesting how compared to the Mono Red version that plays like traditional Sligh, this plays much more like a burn deck.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Here's my current build:
21 Mountain
Creatures
4 Foundry Street Denizen
3 Lightning Berserker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Dragon Fodder
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Goblin Heelcutter
3 Hordeling Outburst
4 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
1 Hall of Triumph
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Roast
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Hordeling Outburst
1 Hall of Triumph
2 Arc Lightning
3 Searing Blood
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
I managed to get something like this into the Top 8 of an rPTQ but I honestly haven't figured out the sideboard fully (or a plan vs Den Protector + Deathmist Raptor decks). What does everyone else do?
Concerning the Green decks, I'm finding 2x Magmatic Chasm quite good along side the normal Roast 3 or 4-of.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
It's a bit like Frenzied Goblin in that sense. He's good against he other half of the field.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 akroan crusader
4 satyr hoplite
4 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 monastery swiftspear
4 street foundry denizen
1 goblin hellcutter
4 titan´s strenght
4 hammerhand
4 coordinated assault
2 rouse the mob
2 blinding flare
4 lightning strike
4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire
11 mountain
I've won several games against other red decks by one or two damage because they took a little too much damage from their "thinning" fetches.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Before Dragons came out I decided that Heelcutter was straight better than Rabblemaster. They got relegated to my sideboard then cut altogether. I would consider bringing them back as a sideboard card vs control but was never impressed by them.
Also I really like Lightning Berserker and was running 4 of them. They can deal a bunch of damage, play excellently vs control, and trade with shockingly big creatures.
You should have a good matchup vs them...
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The math 100% supports thinning. It's up to you whether you value the life more than the fraction of the card each fetch offers. If you can completely ignore your life total, fetches only for thinning is probably fine; otherwise, it takes to long to reap any benefit.