I've never had an increase in mana issues since cutting Anticipate. For me, 90% of the time I cast it was to find an answer. Don't be afraid to mull and know how to scry and you'll be all set. Digging for a Dragon to turn on Scorn was nice, but it never came up often and usually whiffed anyways.
Not claming to have the optimal build, just throwing out another perspective since it was on topic. To each his own
Eh. I don't think another land is necessary. Adrian ran zero anticipates with 27 lands.
That being said... I'm reluctant to take out all anticipates. ATM I'm experimenting with cutting 1 anticipate (going down to x2) for x1 ashiok.
I've never had an increase in mana issues since cutting Anticipate. For me, 90% of the time I cast it was to find an answer. Don't be afraid to mull and know how to scry and you'll be all set. Digging for a Dragon to turn on Scorn was nice, but it never came up often and usually whiffed anyways.
Not claming to have the optimal build, just throwing out another perspective since it was on topic. To each his own
I agree. My main concern about cutting anticipate is not just the land, but the likelihood of finding a dragon.
Anticipate is very useful for digging late game to find that copy of a dragon to turn on your scorns.
I run 2 on 26, I think that's passable. 0 anticipate and 26 land however is too greedy for my tastes. Anticipate is too good of a card for this kind of deck to cut completely.
I've been on 2 Anticipates for a few weeks now and intend to keep it that way. The popular opinion of running a full set of them around the release of DTK was before the Esper Dragons deck came to light. The full set is indeed plausible for the old UB build since the removal-counter to threat ratio is high. In Esper Dragons you have a higher density of threats with the main one having the Anticipate engine built into it. Cutting 2 of them in favour of more removal is the right thing to do in this kind of build I believe.
I run 2 on 26, I think that's passable. 0 anticipate and 26 land however is too greedy for my tastes. Anticipate is too good of a card for this kind of deck to cut completely.
I still run 27 lands. I would not go lower, even with x2 anticipates.
I run 2 on 26, I think that's passable. 0 anticipate and 26 land however is too greedy for my tastes. Anticipate is too good of a card for this kind of deck to cut completely.
I still run 27 lands. I would not go lower, even with x2 anticipates.
Yes I do. Even without Ugin though I would hesitate to play 26 lands. In the mirror it typically comes down to whoever draws more lands.
Yes. he basically played -3 anticipate, -1 ugin for +2 ashiok +1 vault +1 draw spell.
I'm not sure if cutting the ugin is worth it though. ATM I'm experimenting with cutting one anticiapte for a one of ashiok.
So people these days are running 7 dragons and 0 Anticipate...
It's like Esper decks are getting progressively worse as people "evolve" them. I think 2 lists made Top 16 at GP Paris? Might be even less this weekend.
You've literally got 0 bad cards in the mirror, so that's worked out great. Against the green decks I really don't know because the guys running them always lose early, locally. I've played mostly mono-red, green devotion, and the mirror with this deck, and I've sided down to 1 copy of Dromoka in the Abzan matchups. The Silumgar is in the sideboard to replace Dromoka against these decks.
Definitely a fun deck, though Omenspeaker is only a card against mono red in your opener and the lack of BB spells hurts that matchup. You can't lose mirrors though and the green matchups where they don't have 12 removal spells are even easier than regular UB
So people these days are running 7 dragons and 0 Anticipate...
It's like Esper decks are getting progressively worse as people "evolve" them. I think 2 lists made Top 16 at GP Paris? Might be even less this weekend.
You've literally got 0 bad cards in the mirror, so that's worked out great. Against the green decks I really don't know because the guys running them always lose early, locally. I've played mostly mono-red, green devotion, and the mirror with this deck, and I've sided down to 1 copy of Dromoka in the Abzan matchups. The Silumgar is in the sideboard to replace Dromoka against these decks.
Definitely a fun deck, though Omenspeaker is only a card against mono red in your opener and the lack of BB spells hurts that matchup. You can't lose mirrors though and the green matchups where they don't have 12 removal spells are even easier than regular UB
Adding a body that my opponent for sure can remove (and basicly all Midrange decks can) make it useless in a match up where the most ideal situation I can create from it still is inferior to a played Dig Through Time. Why delve away for a creature if you can't play DDT because of it to close out the game (as you mentioned)?
Advancing your board with a card that can win the game on its own is not inferior to casting a draw spell. Like I said before, the biggest reason to play the card is because it's a big tempo play. You play the card while being able to keep your shields up. That's not trivial. It's not even like you always have to play the card blind either, we do play Thoughtseize after all.
Where we do agree is that DTTs is what beats them. The main issue with Tasigur is that DTT and him have a huge anti-synergy.
Tasigurs ability has incredible synergy with DTT. Even responding to their removal with his ability can setup your next DTT, and you don't need to have a full graveyard to cast it.
Making it to my orignal point again Tasigur is great versus Aggro (you need a wall and DTT will not save you time) and Control (where you have all the time to reload your discard pile again for further DTTs).
You do have time against midrange decks, because most of them lack the threat density to kill you quickly if you put up any resistance.
Cool deck Cipher, but yeah... Many UBw Dragon builds seem to be devolving from the orginal. In fact there are even some builds I wouldn't consider UBX Control at all...
Regarding your deck, I think you have a very solid match up against Midranged decks and Control decks. The biggest downside or thoughest match up as a result seems to be Aggro in it's many shapes and sizes however. Better said, is there any specific reason why this deck is too cool for mass removal like Crux of Fate, Drown in Sorrow or even Vault?
The only one of those I would run is Drown in Sorrow, and that's impossible with 11 black sources.
I haven't been running mass removal maindeck for a while, though I do have 2 Vault in Esper maindeck. Instead, I've been running lists with more counterspells. The two don't really mesh well, and with the sweepers being so terrible I'd rather lean towards the much stronger counterspells they've printed. The sweepers almost require that you fall behind to utilize effectively, and I've been finding that Crux of Fate was the worst card in my deck all season, even against Aggro. Perilous Vault is better, but then why not just run another Dragon in this list? IF the problem is that we fall behind on tempo and they get two creatures on board (only way a Crux doesn't suck) then I'd rather answer with dragon than a Crux. Crux combos fine with an Ojutai, but Dromoka is even better.
Of course, like I said this deck was made after Flores released his 5-color list and back then people weren't playing Abzan Aggro. That deck makes Dromoka worse than Crux or Vault, but like I said nobody is running it in my area. That or they're just not at the top tables with it.
Some lists are starting to look like U/B Midrange rather than "pure" control. If lists are devolving from their original concept than doesn't that against the "control" mind set? I was comfortable running a creature-less list prior to Dragons and doing just fine. Running 7 Dragons smells like Midrange territory and if that's what it's evolving too, then I'd just hop over and play Abzan as that deck is the aggro/midrange staple. I put my Esper list back together to run some more and have found that there is the "switch" where the deck goes from early control to Midrange, it's a strange deck to pilot well, and it has elements of both. The draw back is that you cannot put out multiple Ojutai's, hence it's why the deck demands we cast him when we've locked the opponent down enough to send him out. Going Midrange though seems like a poor route with U/B/x, there are no 3-4 drops that pressure at all in those colors.
I tested my "pure control" deck and have found it to be pretty well positioned. Deal with stuff, sweep stuff away, deny and then lock them down with walkers. Seems to work, the other route (esper) fly over them with a dragonlord won multiple GP's, not sure if straying away from winning formulas is the right route.
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Again I can't agree with any of this. I like the idea but again unless your opponent is a fool Hand of Silumgar and Stratus Dancer will not pan out like you want to or like you describe...
1. You play it and leave your opponent open to play whatever he wants. What is your plan against a resolved Ashiok or Whip? Or even Thoughtseize for that matter?
Thoughtseize, Silumgar's Scorn, Dragonlord Silumgar, and attacking into it with creatures are all ways this deck can deal with Ashiok. In fact, it deals with Ashiok very easily, because Ashiok has zero effect on the board when it resolves and takes at least 2-3 turns until it can actually do anything.
2. Be specific with the creatures. It matters a million.
3. WRONG unless your opponent again is a fool, he has many more options. Examples of these are:
- Tokens
- Flyers
- Creatures who generate more creatures
All of the above can be listed in creature names who actually are very relevant in the current competative meta. These being:
- Wingmate Roc (Note: Silumgar does not stop the Raid)
The only deck that really plays Roc is some Abzan Control, and not many, and you shouldn't be counting on Hand to stop Roc. Additionally, traditional 1-for-1 removal is bad against Roc anyway because the Raid triggered Roc creates a copy of itself!
- If Fleecemabe Lion OR Deathdealer are NOT removed there is little reason for your opponent to attack into Hand. Additionally Deathdealer can regenerate.
If I can get my opponent to NOT attack me with his Lion or Deathdealer, I consider that a win. Slowing opponent's early rush = leads to wins for you.
- Siege Rhino still deals 6 damage when resolved and attacking into Hand...'
But it still dies. It's only 3 more damage taken than a 1BB Hero's Downfall would manage to make you take. And stuff like Ultimate Price and Bile Blight? Worthless against the Rhino, whereas at least with Hand you can stop them from doing any more than 6 damage, tops.
- Valorous Stance deals with Death touch...
If opponent is wasting his Valorous Stance to deal with my Hand of Silumgar, I'm overjoyed. That means I can resolve my Dragonlord Silumgar later in the game without worrying about that Valorous Stance that he wasted on my cheap early blocker!
- Thunderbreak Regent/Phoenix fly.
Hand isn't great against Mardu Dragons, but those decks run Rabblemasters and Seeker of the Way. And guess what? Hand deals with those, and then your other spells can deal with the Dragons.
- Arc Lightning deals with Hand and you...
- Point being, this list can continue over the "suggested" 3 options your opponent has...
Here's the core of the creatures played by Abzan Aggro:
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
2-4 Warden of the First Tree
Here's the core of the creatures played by Abzan Control:
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
3 Den Protector
3 Fleecemane Lion
0-3 Wingmate Roc
Here's the core of the creatures played by Mono Red:
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Lightning Berserker
2-3 Zurgo Bellstriker
2-4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2-4 Goblin Rabblemaster
Here's the core of the creatures played by GW Devotion:
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Den Protector
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Courser of Kruphix
2-3 Warden of the First Tree
How many of these creatures can fly over Hand or can profitably attack into it without dying? Monstrous Fleecemane... Regenerating Deathdealer... and that's basically it. Against Abzan decks, GW Devotion decks, and Red-based aggro decks, which comprise most of the metagame right now, it's simply a 1-for-1 removal spell that either kills one of their attackers OR stops them from attacking, which is a WIN for you, because it lets you build your mana and draw cards while sitting back and not taking damage. Don't you get it? Opponents NOT attacking into Hand is a FAVORABLE outcome for you! It's virtual card advantage!
Against Esper Dragons it's an early clock that gives you an edge in the control mirror because they have to deal with it or lose life early to it, whereas traditional removal like Bile Blight, Ultimate Price, or even Hero's Downfall would be borderline worthless in this matchup.
So really, there are few matchups where Hand is just actively bad or even dead. The same cannot be said for conditional removal like Ultimate Price and Bile Blight.
Goblin Rabblemaster effectively cannot attack when Hand is in play. He can only attack with his tokens, and if you have any other kind of blocker in play, that plan is neutered as well. Brimaz cannot attack with Hand in play either, because if he attacks he dies when Hand blocks him - and if Brimaz is not attacking, he's not generating tokens. Whisperwood Elemental being sacrificed in response to Hand? I can think of worse things from a fringe deck.
- Again Stratus Dancer isn't anything like Vendilion Clique or Spellstutter Sprite. It simply isn't. Why? Because 2 of these cost 2-3 mana and have Flash and the other costs 3 (at Sorcery speed) plus 2 with an effect that can only target Instants or Sorceries.
Where both Vendilion Clique and Spellstutter Sprite effectively can stop any spell.
Clique does not create any kind of card advantage whereas Sprite and Dancer actually create hard card advantage. Sprite is a conditional counter (number of faeries) whereas Dancer is conditional in a different way (sorcery/instant). They are all comparable because neither is definitively better than any of the others, as they are all conditional to some extent.
- Again unless your opponent is a fool, Silumgar's Hand does not deal with the above. Please tell me why your opponent would attack into it?
And if he's not attacking you with his creatures, that's a concept called "virtual card advantage" because you've effectively turned off a creature or number of creatures by your 1B spell.
- Lastly I would rather play Instant Removal over any possible 'Sorcery Removal' that Silumgar's Hand is.
That's too bad really because if you just open your eyes a little and try something new you might find it to be very effective, as I have in my testing.
I played against a suboptimally built Mono Red deck R1, GW Devotion R2/R3, and an Abzan Constellation deck R4.
I'm super pleased with Vault atm, my local meta had a lot of Esper Dragons for a while so people swung towards decks and cards that were good against that but pretty bad against vault (Deathmist Raptor namely). The card is tough to play with, though, and I was really pleased with how I managed the boardstate. I often will play out Vault but then use removal spells to keep things under control while taking a bit of damage until I decide it's time to wipe the board. It's a clunky but very powerful card.
Any input on card choices, etc?
Mr. Metronome, looks like you went pre dragons route man, glad it worked it for you. I think...3 Bile Blight is enough for the MB, and I'd cut one to the SB. I'm not sure how good Ultimate Price is right now, (I think it's a meta call) but my own meta is cooking with Abzan, Mardu...actually everything so I think 1 in the main could be fine. 26 lands is it? I'd drop Haven of the Spirit Dragon and Opulent Palace and add in at least 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and some more Radiant Fountain's, maybe your land count to 27? I always found the fountains to be key in aggro match ups. Maybe consider running Liliana Vess or another Ugin? Maybe 3 Anticipate rather than 4? I feel like you want something to help you close the game with more "umph" hence some more threats int he form of walkers?
It looks good and that deck is tailored by you so you know why you put those cards there, if it's working then it's working bro Congrats on the 4-0 at FNM, there a promo this month? I haven't been able to do FNM's on friday's so I go other days
But the realistic question here is can Tasigur win the game on it's own. From many games Ive played and seen versus Midrange, that awnser is no. For it's card advantage engine also thakes up a serious ammount of mana where playing Counterspells and Removal is still very much relevant. As mentioned before. Ideally you topdeck into a Tasigur where mana is in abundance and your opponent is in the same situation, hopefully without boardstate...
The ability works at instant speed, which works well with other instants. It's not difficult to just hold up your mana and use the ability when the coast is clear.
Tasigur does not have incredible synergy with the first and/or second DTT. It's as simple as that. Responding to their removal with his ability assumes a situation where your opponent actually allows you to do so. Again the better player responds to you using the ability than the other way around.
Killing Tasigur in response to the ability doesn't stop the ability from resolving. It's getting to the point where I'm not convinced that you've played many games with the card.
You do have time, but again it's besides the main point. Being that our deck is allready incredibly well equiped for dealing with Midrange. In fact the main reason Ashiok has shown up again in the mainboard in recent GPs or PTQs is because Midrange is so dominant.
Now again Im a fan of the card, just not against Midrange because they have the removal and creatures to push through this ground 4/5 body.
A 4/5 body is not easy to get through. The fact that it can block a monstrous Fleecemane Lion or hold back a Rhino is reason enough to want to board it in.
Guys, no need to get frisky with one another Tasigur is a mixed for me, I really like the card and want to see him come out of my SB, but I prefer to have more exile effects in my 75. If I'm behind in the current meta I'm not sure this card can pull me back. In a deck where the mana is already greedy, I wonder if this where we want to be. Ugin is still an important part of the dragon package and an extra [card]Foul-Tongue Invocation[/card ]might be better for a control deck. I've seen Tasigur shine in Whip decks and Abzan. I had previously said that this card might be better suited for us, but I haven't seen enough games with the card in a control deck that is U/B to have a better opinon yet. I was hoping some of you had have matches where Tasigur has been an MVP or actually fulfilled it's role as a CA engine. Theoretically this card should slot right in right? But in practice I'm not so sure.
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MTG-Fan, I really feel sorry for you because of your look onto the game. I think further discussion also becomes pointless at this stage because defending a 2/1 with Deathtouch really isn't worth all this talk. Nontheless I'll try to go through your post again.
- Ashiok needs those turns and get those turns, which is the point. How do you deal with a resolved Ashiok? It will eventually grab a Dragon or two and your list is not prepared to remove them.
It takes at least 2+ turns for Ashiok to do anything to affect the board state. Within that time frame, and further on, Ashiok can be attacked by Hands, by Stratus Dancers, and Dragons, or stolen by Dragonlord Silumgar. Because the decks playing Ashiok usually don't play any creatures that come down early, they have zero blockers to protect Ashiok.
- No, Roc is not only played by Abzan Control, it is also very likely to be included in Abzan Midrange. If you wish lists to be provided, just ask.
The point is that Roc is a fringe player at best in this metagame. In the last three recent Standard Grand Prix events, of the top 8 decklists:
GP Toronto (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16926) - Six Abzan decks, only two of them (Brad Nelson and Dylan Donegan) played any Wingmate Roc, and each list played only two Rocs.
GP Sao Paolo (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16931) - Three Abzan decks, only two of them (Claudio Barrientos Ochoa and Mariano Cartechini) played any Roc, and Ochoa played only one Roc in his list, while Cartechini played two.
GP Paris (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16995) - Six Abzan decks, only three of them (Amand Dosimont, Christian Hauck, and Jasper Grimmer) played any Roc, and each player only registered two Rocs in his decklist.
It's not something to be overly concerned with, and furthermore, you didn't even acknowledge the point that traditional 1-for-1 removal is almost equally as bad vs. Roc as Hand of Silumgar is. Hero's Downfall still leaves a token behind; Bile Blight does absolutely nothing; Ultimate Price leaves a token behind.
- I do not, consider myself winning if my opponent has the Fleecemane Lion/Deathdealer around and make it either Monsterous or Regenerate. Again there is nothing Counters and Hand of Silumgar can do to stop that. Monster Fleecemane kills control players. Because as soon as they even have a single token on board aswell, there is nothing UB can do to remove it barring Ugin or Vault.
Nothing UB can do to a monstrous fleecemane lion? Ever heard of something called Foul-Tongue Invocation? Which, if played on a monstrous Lion, is often a blow-out because you spent 3 mana to their whopping 7 mana and you gained back 4 life.
Also, in my list, you can simply fly over and kill the opponent even if he has a monstrous lion in play. Monstrous lion is still only a 4/4 and if we deal with their other threats, our flying creatures can often out-race the Abzan opponent.
Here is the list of cards who do not care about Hand of Silumgar:
- Fleecemane Lion
Again, until he has mana to become monstrous (which is only after Turn 5), Lion cares VERY MUCH about attacking into Hand.
- Rakshasa Deathdealer
Only if he has mana to regenerate, and then, even if this happens, it's often a tempo win for you because you blanked their early turn (prevented the combat damage and forced them to spend 2 of their mana, and filled your graveyard with another card for Dig).
- Siege Rhino
Siege Rhino cares very much if he wants to do more than 6 damage. I went over this already - Siege Rhino completely laughs at Bile Blight and Ultimate Price whereas Hand of Silumgar stops Rhino from doing any more than 6 damage. Hero's Downfall, the gold standard of 1-for-1 removal, will stop it from doing more than 3 damage, so Hand is actually the second best way to deal with Siege Rhino out of these removal options.
- Den Protector
If your opponent cares at all for the 3/2 body, then he cares about Hand. And again, how is 1-for-1 instant speed removal any better against Den Protector? Opponent will get his card from the graveyard if anyway if he leaves the mana open. Hand is really no worse than traditional removal against Protectors.
- Wingmate Roc
And again, a fringe player at the moment in the metagame, and even at that, how is 1-for-1 removal that much better against it? What you really want to do is simply not let it resolve in the first place. If you are Hero's Downfalling a single Roc, you are kind of fighting a losing battle anyway.
- Goblin Rabblemaster
Preventing the Rabblemaster himself from attacking is actually very beneficial early in the game because you can take damage from tokens, it's the +1/+0 pump the Rabbelmaster gets that really kills you. And if you have any kind of blocker in play (like an unmorphed Dancer, a Dragon), then Rabblemaster is completely stopped from attacking.
- Deathmist Raptor
Just like with Den Protector - TELL ME HOW 1-for-1 instant removal is any better in this situation? Hand is literally no worse than a Hero's Downfall or a Bile Blight against Raptor.
Note: Goblin Rabblemaster does not have to attack. As long as it's still there the Tokens will do the trick. Tokens who you can block with Hand (and lose it) or otherwise continue to gnaw at your life totals.
All the above cards, given time (which Hand gives them plentora) form a card that eventually do not care about Hand of Silumgar what so ever.
Good luck with your Hands, there is a reason why not a single deck includes them. They are great for limited but otherwise very much inferior to Bile Blight. Again the only decks who might care about them is Control because they provide boardstates where a bear is just anoying. The same also applies for Stratus Dancer who is great against Control (because they rely on Instants and Sorcery's) but otherwise largely misses it's mark as a semi-counter creature. While also great for limited play.
Lastly I'd suggest playing some more games with the decks and share the results. Looking forward to it.
I've played many games online to great results. I'm going to be taking this deck with me to some IQs, SCG Opens, and Grand Prix down the line and hope to do well with it - it's performed better for me in testing than the traditional UB Control lists have.
For what it's worth, I've never really liked Tasigur. I had him in my sideboard a few months back, thinking he was some sweet tech, but 4 mana is a lot to draw a card. It's definitely scary to play against, but my experience has always been that it's just a good card, not OP or anything.
I'm not saying it's OP, because it isn't. I definitely think people are sleeping on how good it is though. If you think you can get more mileage out of your sideboard without it, then by all means go for it. I just know Taisgur has been a staple in every deck I've played since Fate Reforged and I've never been disappointed by it. The same goes for Thoughtseize now that I think about it, but that's a different animal all together.
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Not claming to have the optimal build, just throwing out another perspective since it was on topic. To each his own
That being said... I'm reluctant to take out all anticipates. ATM I'm experimenting with cutting 1 anticipate (going down to x2) for x1 ashiok.
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I agree. My main concern about cutting anticipate is not just the land, but the likelihood of finding a dragon.
Anticipate is very useful for digging late game to find that copy of a dragon to turn on your scorns.
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Standard Competitive MemberI still run 27 lands. I would not go lower, even with x2 anticipates.
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Standard Competitive MemberI don't hate that at all.
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Standard Competitive MemberYes I do. Even without Ugin though I would hesitate to play 26 lands. In the mirror it typically comes down to whoever draws more lands.
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Yes. he basically played -3 anticipate, -1 ugin for +2 ashiok +1 vault +1 draw spell.
I'm not sure if cutting the ugin is worth it though. ATM I'm experimenting with cutting one anticiapte for a one of ashiok.
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Interesting list. I would be reluctant to completely cut Thoughtseize however.
I also don't like cutting the ugin.
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It's like Esper decks are getting progressively worse as people "evolve" them. I think 2 lists made Top 16 at GP Paris? Might be even less this weekend.
I've personally been running a 4-color UB list:
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
Spells (26)
2 Negate
2 Nullify
4 Silumgar's Scorn
4 Dissolve
2 Voyage's End
4 Foul-Tongue Invocation
4 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Dismal Backwater
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
6 Island
1 Swamp
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Stratus Dancer
4 Omenspeaker
2 Dissipate
1 Self-Inflicted Wound
3 Murderous Cut
You've literally got 0 bad cards in the mirror, so that's worked out great. Against the green decks I really don't know because the guys running them always lose early, locally. I've played mostly mono-red, green devotion, and the mirror with this deck, and I've sided down to 1 copy of Dromoka in the Abzan matchups. The Silumgar is in the sideboard to replace Dromoka against these decks.
Definitely a fun deck, though Omenspeaker is only a card against mono red in your opener and the lack of BB spells hurts that matchup. You can't lose mirrors though and the green matchups where they don't have 12 removal spells are even easier than regular UB
It's like Esper decks are getting progressively worse as people "evolve" them. I think 2 lists made Top 16 at GP Paris? Might be even less this weekend.
I've personally been running a 4-color UB list:
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
Spells (26)
2 Negate
2 Nullify
4 Silumgar's Scorn
4 Dissolve
2 Voyage's End
4 Foul-Tongue Invocation
4 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Dismal Backwater
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
6 Island
1 Swamp
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Stratus Dancer
4 Omenspeaker
2 Dissipate
1 Self-Inflicted Wound
3 Murderous Cut
You've literally got 0 bad cards in the mirror, so that's worked out great. Against the green decks I really don't know because the guys running them always lose early, locally. I've played mostly mono-red, green devotion, and the mirror with this deck, and I've sided down to 1 copy of Dromoka in the Abzan matchups. The Silumgar is in the sideboard to replace Dromoka against these decks.
Definitely a fun deck, though Omenspeaker is only a card against mono red in your opener and the lack of BB spells hurts that matchup. You can't lose mirrors though and the green matchups where they don't have 12 removal spells are even easier than regular UB
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Standard Competitive MemberAdvancing your board with a card that can win the game on its own is not inferior to casting a draw spell. Like I said before, the biggest reason to play the card is because it's a big tempo play. You play the card while being able to keep your shields up. That's not trivial. It's not even like you always have to play the card blind either, we do play Thoughtseize after all.
Tasigurs ability has incredible synergy with DTT. Even responding to their removal with his ability can setup your next DTT, and you don't need to have a full graveyard to cast it.
You do have time against midrange decks, because most of them lack the threat density to kill you quickly if you put up any resistance.
The only one of those I would run is Drown in Sorrow, and that's impossible with 11 black sources.
I haven't been running mass removal maindeck for a while, though I do have 2 Vault in Esper maindeck. Instead, I've been running lists with more counterspells. The two don't really mesh well, and with the sweepers being so terrible I'd rather lean towards the much stronger counterspells they've printed. The sweepers almost require that you fall behind to utilize effectively, and I've been finding that Crux of Fate was the worst card in my deck all season, even against Aggro. Perilous Vault is better, but then why not just run another Dragon in this list? IF the problem is that we fall behind on tempo and they get two creatures on board (only way a Crux doesn't suck) then I'd rather answer with dragon than a Crux. Crux combos fine with an Ojutai, but Dromoka is even better.
Of course, like I said this deck was made after Flores released his 5-color list and back then people weren't playing Abzan Aggro. That deck makes Dromoka worse than Crux or Vault, but like I said nobody is running it in my area. That or they're just not at the top tables with it.
I tested my "pure control" deck and have found it to be pretty well positioned. Deal with stuff, sweep stuff away, deny and then lock them down with walkers. Seems to work, the other route (esper) fly over them with a dragonlord won multiple GP's, not sure if straying away from winning formulas is the right route.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Thoughtseize, Silumgar's Scorn, Dragonlord Silumgar, and attacking into it with creatures are all ways this deck can deal with Ashiok. In fact, it deals with Ashiok very easily, because Ashiok has zero effect on the board when it resolves and takes at least 2-3 turns until it can actually do anything.
The only deck that really plays Roc is some Abzan Control, and not many, and you shouldn't be counting on Hand to stop Roc. Additionally, traditional 1-for-1 removal is bad against Roc anyway because the Raid triggered Roc creates a copy of itself!
If I can get my opponent to NOT attack me with his Lion or Deathdealer, I consider that a win. Slowing opponent's early rush = leads to wins for you.
But it still dies. It's only 3 more damage taken than a 1BB Hero's Downfall would manage to make you take. And stuff like Ultimate Price and Bile Blight? Worthless against the Rhino, whereas at least with Hand you can stop them from doing any more than 6 damage, tops.
If opponent is wasting his Valorous Stance to deal with my Hand of Silumgar, I'm overjoyed. That means I can resolve my Dragonlord Silumgar later in the game without worrying about that Valorous Stance that he wasted on my cheap early blocker!
Hand isn't great against Mardu Dragons, but those decks run Rabblemasters and Seeker of the Way. And guess what? Hand deals with those, and then your other spells can deal with the Dragons.
Here's the core of the creatures played by Abzan Aggro:
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
2-4 Warden of the First Tree
Here's the core of the creatures played by Abzan Control:
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
3 Den Protector
3 Fleecemane Lion
0-3 Wingmate Roc
Here's the core of the creatures played by Mono Red:
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Lightning Berserker
2-3 Zurgo Bellstriker
2-4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2-4 Goblin Rabblemaster
Here's the core of the creatures played by GW Devotion:
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Den Protector
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Courser of Kruphix
2-3 Warden of the First Tree
How many of these creatures can fly over Hand or can profitably attack into it without dying? Monstrous Fleecemane... Regenerating Deathdealer... and that's basically it. Against Abzan decks, GW Devotion decks, and Red-based aggro decks, which comprise most of the metagame right now, it's simply a 1-for-1 removal spell that either kills one of their attackers OR stops them from attacking, which is a WIN for you, because it lets you build your mana and draw cards while sitting back and not taking damage. Don't you get it? Opponents NOT attacking into Hand is a FAVORABLE outcome for you! It's virtual card advantage!
Against Esper Dragons it's an early clock that gives you an edge in the control mirror because they have to deal with it or lose life early to it, whereas traditional removal like Bile Blight, Ultimate Price, or even Hero's Downfall would be borderline worthless in this matchup.
So really, there are few matchups where Hand is just actively bad or even dead. The same cannot be said for conditional removal like Ultimate Price and Bile Blight.
Goblin Rabblemaster effectively cannot attack when Hand is in play. He can only attack with his tokens, and if you have any other kind of blocker in play, that plan is neutered as well. Brimaz cannot attack with Hand in play either, because if he attacks he dies when Hand blocks him - and if Brimaz is not attacking, he's not generating tokens. Whisperwood Elemental being sacrificed in response to Hand? I can think of worse things from a fringe deck.
Clique does not create any kind of card advantage whereas Sprite and Dancer actually create hard card advantage. Sprite is a conditional counter (number of faeries) whereas Dancer is conditional in a different way (sorcery/instant). They are all comparable because neither is definitively better than any of the others, as they are all conditional to some extent.
And if he's not attacking you with his creatures, that's a concept called "virtual card advantage" because you've effectively turned off a creature or number of creatures by your 1B spell.
That's too bad really because if you just open your eyes a little and try something new you might find it to be very effective, as I have in my testing.
5 Island
5 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Opulent Palace
Win-cons
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
4 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
4 Anticipate
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
4 Dissolve
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Silence the Believers
3 Perilous Vault
1 AEtherspouts
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
4 Dig Through Time
3 Encase in Ice
3 Pharika's Cure
1 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Virulent Plague
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
I played against a suboptimally built Mono Red deck R1, GW Devotion R2/R3, and an Abzan Constellation deck R4.
I'm super pleased with Vault atm, my local meta had a lot of Esper Dragons for a while so people swung towards decks and cards that were good against that but pretty bad against vault (Deathmist Raptor namely). The card is tough to play with, though, and I was really pleased with how I managed the boardstate. I often will play out Vault but then use removal spells to keep things under control while taking a bit of damage until I decide it's time to wipe the board. It's a clunky but very powerful card.
Any input on card choices, etc?
It looks good and that deck is tailored by you so you know why you put those cards there, if it's working then it's working bro
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
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Standard Competitive MemberThe ability works at instant speed, which works well with other instants. It's not difficult to just hold up your mana and use the ability when the coast is clear.
Killing Tasigur in response to the ability doesn't stop the ability from resolving. It's getting to the point where I'm not convinced that you've played many games with the card.
A 4/5 body is not easy to get through. The fact that it can block a monstrous Fleecemane Lion or hold back a Rhino is reason enough to want to board it in.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
It takes at least 2+ turns for Ashiok to do anything to affect the board state. Within that time frame, and further on, Ashiok can be attacked by Hands, by Stratus Dancers, and Dragons, or stolen by Dragonlord Silumgar. Because the decks playing Ashiok usually don't play any creatures that come down early, they have zero blockers to protect Ashiok.
The point is that Roc is a fringe player at best in this metagame. In the last three recent Standard Grand Prix events, of the top 8 decklists:
GP Toronto (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16926) - Six Abzan decks, only two of them (Brad Nelson and Dylan Donegan) played any Wingmate Roc, and each list played only two Rocs.
GP Sao Paolo (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16931) - Three Abzan decks, only two of them (Claudio Barrientos Ochoa and Mariano Cartechini) played any Roc, and Ochoa played only one Roc in his list, while Cartechini played two.
GP Paris (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16995) - Six Abzan decks, only three of them (Amand Dosimont, Christian Hauck, and Jasper Grimmer) played any Roc, and each player only registered two Rocs in his decklist.
It's not something to be overly concerned with, and furthermore, you didn't even acknowledge the point that traditional 1-for-1 removal is almost equally as bad vs. Roc as Hand of Silumgar is. Hero's Downfall still leaves a token behind; Bile Blight does absolutely nothing; Ultimate Price leaves a token behind.
Nothing UB can do to a monstrous fleecemane lion? Ever heard of something called Foul-Tongue Invocation? Which, if played on a monstrous Lion, is often a blow-out because you spent 3 mana to their whopping 7 mana and you gained back 4 life.
Also, in my list, you can simply fly over and kill the opponent even if he has a monstrous lion in play. Monstrous lion is still only a 4/4 and if we deal with their other threats, our flying creatures can often out-race the Abzan opponent.
Again, until he has mana to become monstrous (which is only after Turn 5), Lion cares VERY MUCH about attacking into Hand.
Only if he has mana to regenerate, and then, even if this happens, it's often a tempo win for you because you blanked their early turn (prevented the combat damage and forced them to spend 2 of their mana, and filled your graveyard with another card for Dig).
Siege Rhino cares very much if he wants to do more than 6 damage. I went over this already - Siege Rhino completely laughs at Bile Blight and Ultimate Price whereas Hand of Silumgar stops Rhino from doing any more than 6 damage. Hero's Downfall, the gold standard of 1-for-1 removal, will stop it from doing more than 3 damage, so Hand is actually the second best way to deal with Siege Rhino out of these removal options.
If your opponent cares at all for the 3/2 body, then he cares about Hand. And again, how is 1-for-1 instant speed removal any better against Den Protector? Opponent will get his card from the graveyard if anyway if he leaves the mana open. Hand is really no worse than traditional removal against Protectors.
And again, a fringe player at the moment in the metagame, and even at that, how is 1-for-1 removal that much better against it? What you really want to do is simply not let it resolve in the first place. If you are Hero's Downfalling a single Roc, you are kind of fighting a losing battle anyway.
Preventing the Rabblemaster himself from attacking is actually very beneficial early in the game because you can take damage from tokens, it's the +1/+0 pump the Rabbelmaster gets that really kills you. And if you have any kind of blocker in play (like an unmorphed Dancer, a Dragon), then Rabblemaster is completely stopped from attacking.
Just like with Den Protector - TELL ME HOW 1-for-1 instant removal is any better in this situation? Hand is literally no worse than a Hero's Downfall or a Bile Blight against Raptor.
I've played many games online to great results. I'm going to be taking this deck with me to some IQs, SCG Opens, and Grand Prix down the line and hope to do well with it - it's performed better for me in testing than the traditional UB Control lists have.
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Standard Competitive Member