After a little more testing, I think any version of dredge needs to max out on Sidisi. She is the most powerful creature in the set, even if she isn't attacking. When I have Sultai Ascendancy out, I usually just mill till I find her because she is usually the biggest difference between stabilizing and losing. On that note, the Ascendancy has been very good for me. Usually the biggest problem with your mill is that if you need a card it is sure to end in the graveyard, and this helps whenever you are drawing towards something (usually removal, Sidisi, or Empty the Pits).
I'm looking at two versions of the deck right now. One is a controlling version that utilizes hand disruption (Thoughtseize, Despise, Brain Maggot) and a fair amount of removal and plays 4X Nyx Weaver, Ascendancy, Charm, and Sidisi. That deck misses more Sidisi triggers, but makes up with it by dealing with midrange threats (Butcher, Stormbreath, Elspeth, Polu, Siege Rhino ...) more effectively. The win condition is either card advantage (evil Genesis Wave, Treasure Ship) or Empty the Pits.
Deck number two is a variant of mono-black aggro. It plays primarily creatures (6-8 spells) and zero copies of Ascendancy. The key is finding the right Delve creatures to complement the curve, and getting the numbers right. Ideally you'd play cheap creatures and fill your graveyard by attacking with reckless abandon, then in the mid-game send out a Delve creature or two to continue the pressure. The problem is that Satyr Wayfinder and Nyx Weaver are horrible aggro creatures, but at least they do have a body. This version definitely wants 4X Grim Haruspex and 4X Bloodstained Warrior. Currently we only have Necropolis Fiend (4/5) and Hooting Mandrils (4/4) for playable creatures, but that may be enough.
I do think Necropolis Fiend is much more useful than I originally believed. While his cost is very high, he can still come down for BB later on when you need threats, and he is also an excellent reanimation target. With Whip out, he can work as a pseudo 2BB kill spell even from the grave. I just wish his body was a little more durable. As is he can still beat Stormbreath and Sarkhan (and the new Phoenix), but he trades or loses with other midrange threats. At 4/6 he'd have been stronger. But I'm still looking for something with Delve that works better as the aggro curve topper.
I'm really struggling to warm up to Accendancy. I mean the power is there, but I can't help but think that not doing anything the turn you cast it really hurts the card. I will add that with Accendancy/Sidisi/Weaver, you'll actually find it easier to activate multicolor gods such as Pharika as opposed to Nylea and Erabos, despite their cheaper devotion threshold. Add that to the fact that Accendancy both can be tutored with Commune and has incredible synergy with Courser, who in turn is value in of itself and you might have a credible argument.
As far as Delve is concerned only two cards jump at me so far. Murderous Cut and Treasured Cruise seems really playable, moreso than the Demon or Empty the Pits. Cut will compete with and most likely beat Downfall in this archetype, especially with Dispise picking up some slack and Treasured Cruise just seems like incredible value against Control and Midrange in the later stages of the game. There IS a self cannibalizing quality to Delve cards though so that's definitely something to look out for but out of every possible archetype out there, this just seems the one most suited to abuse it.
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You're better of ramping to any 6-drops, and even 7-drops are debatable. Leviathan is stronk but too vulnerable -Ashen Rider really is the only valid target but he's on other colours and I wouldn't bother playing something you can't hard cast too.
After testing aggro, control, and pure dredge versions of the deck my favorite with Sidisi is the control variant. Early game I rely on 4X Thoughtseize, 3X Brain Maggot, 2X Rakshasa's Secret to get my opponent into top-deck mode. Then I try to land and stick a Nyx Weaver, Sidisi, or the Ascendancy and use Delve spells (Murderous Cuts, Treasure Ship, Dig Through Time) to maintain card and board advantage.
I've found that over a game, the three per turn mill spells tend to mill much more than Commune and Wayfinder. We'll see what gets printed at common/uncommon, but for now I prefer to load up my deck with more removal. I'm also adding in a few more reanimation targets, though my favorite is just bringing back Sidisi with Whip, possibly leaving me with 2 more tokens. I've tested Necropolis Fiend and Rakshasa Vizier at that slot. Fiend was interesting because he could kill a God or any other creature with other cards in the graveyard, but of course he couldn't attack while doing so. Vizier actually gets quite huge with Delve, though I'd never tap out to play him normally.
Even with 4 other Delve cards, I'm still winning a lot of games with Empty the Pits. First, a decent portion of those spells just get mills. Second, I am usually milling a constant 2-6 a turn, giving me room for a ton of fodder.
After testing aggro, control, and pure dredge versions of the deck my favorite with Sidisi is the control variant. Early game I rely on 4X Thoughtseize, 3X Brain Maggot, 2X Rakshasa's Secret to get my opponent into top-deck mode. Then I try to land and stick a Nyx Weaver, Sidisi, or the Ascendancy and use Delve spells (Murderous Cuts, Treasure Ship, Dig Through Time) to maintain card and board advantage.
I've found that over a game, the three per turn mill spells tend to mill much more than Commune and Wayfinder. We'll see what gets printed at common/uncommon, but for now I prefer to load up my deck with more removal. I'm also adding in a few more reanimation targets, though my favorite is just bringing back Sidisi with Whip, possibly leaving me with 2 more tokens. I've tested Necropolis Fiend and Rakshasa Vizier at that slot. Fiend was interesting because he could kill a God or any other creature with other cards in the graveyard, but of course he couldn't attack while doing so. Vizier actually gets quite huge with Delve, though I'd never tap out to play him normally.
Even with 4 other Delve cards, I'm still winning a lot of games with Empty the Pits. First, a decent portion of those spells just get mills. Second, I am usually milling a constant 2-6 a turn, giving me room for a ton of fodder.
That sounds like the way I want to build the deck aswell. Care to show your list?
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Not in the last format. It would be very good in this deck however since we get actual card filtering in sultai ascendancy and the delve mechanic makes pitching excess lands valuable.
Not sure if the 1-drops good enough. The deck while aggressive isn't that aggressive; at least I don't think so. Having another turn 1 play is probably excellent though since that's generally a blank on the curve most of the time. The ideal game goes turn 2 setup, turn 3 1 or multiple fatties.
The biggest flaw is that aside from being recurrable, the champion doesn't fit into the decks theme that well and doesn't interact profitably with delve. Worth testing.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
If I had those two things, I'd be golden. As is, the deck is still very good.
If you really need those things, Necromancer's Stockpile and Bloodcrazed Champion will be in standard together. Not enough playable zombies to make use of it though.
I also think Bloodsoaked Champion could find a place. It makes Commune stacks easier to pick from, and you can always swing with Wayfinder to trigger Raid to recast all the little guys from the graveyard.
Could this be a replacement for Grisly Salvage? It's not as good since it costs 2G and is sorcery speed, but I think it'll do.
No. 3CMC to put cards in the graveyard and not affect the battlefield is not where you want to be, especially at sorcery speed. The deck is already truly awful early game, and all this card does is give you another empty turn. Sure you'll cast that 13/13 Nighthowler turn 4, but by then you'll be down to 4 life against any decent aggro deck. Grisly Salvage was at least instant speed so that you could hold up Doom Blade or Ultimate Price, and it came down a turn earlier. I don't even play Commune or Wayfinder anymore because I got tired of hitting turns 4-5 with absolutely zero board presence. Tiagem's Scheming is even worse in that it doesn't replace itself, meaning it is strict card disadvantage for no battlefield impact.
Could this be a replacement for Grisly Salvage? It's not as good since it costs 2G and is sorcery speed, but I think it'll do.
No. 3CMC to put cards in the graveyard and not affect the battlefield is not where you want to be, especially at sorcery speed. The deck is already truly awful early game, and all this card does is give you another empty turn. Sure you'll cast that 13/13 Nighthowler turn 4, but by then you'll be down to 4 life against any decent aggro deck. Grisly Salvage was at least instant speed so that you could hold up Doom Blade or Ultimate Price, and it came down a turn earlier. I don't even play Commune or Wayfinder anymore because I got tired of hitting turns 4-5 with absolutely zero board presence. Tiagem's Scheming is even worse in that it doesn't replace itself, meaning it is strict card disadvantage for no battlefield impact.
I've never played Ultimate Price or Doom Blade in my build, and only recently started using Hero's Downfall in the sideboard. Aggro is a tough matchup, but Elvish Mystic, Wayfinder, and Lotleth Troll always came down soon enough to at least allow chump blocking.
As much as it pains me, I plan to lean away from Nighthowler in KTK due to all the graveyard hate and exile effects. Instead, I'm looking more at Undergrowth Scavenger and Nemesis of Mortals because their graveyard-matters effects are permanent, and they work well with Retribution of the Ancients as a pseudo-replacement for Shadowborn Demon.
Will it work out? Maybe not, but I want to toy around with a straight BG list for a little while before I delve (hur hur) into the more mainstream BUG builds.
Evasion is a lot less important when Sidisi provides you with the ability to just go wider, as opposed to just voltron-ing up a single creature, not that that is a sound strategy to begin with with End all Hostilities and Silence the Believers likely to see more play. Sidisi actually seems pretty clutch in rapidly advancing your board. Personally I still like the constellation approach, if only because it has the most inevitability out of any Dredge variant. But then again it's also weaker to dedicated hate and/or disruption so there are definite costs involved regardless of the strategy you take.
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If I were to play dredge, I'd play a couple of empty the pits in any list. that card alone is enough to shore up the deck's weakness against spot removal.
If I were to play dredge, I'd play a couple of empty the pits in any list. that card alone is enough to shore up the deck's weakness against spot removal.
Spot removal is less of a problem. Anger of the Gods and End Hostility is more of an issue than anything else.
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I'm looking at two versions of the deck right now. One is a controlling version that utilizes hand disruption (Thoughtseize, Despise, Brain Maggot) and a fair amount of removal and plays 4X Nyx Weaver, Ascendancy, Charm, and Sidisi. That deck misses more Sidisi triggers, but makes up with it by dealing with midrange threats (Butcher, Stormbreath, Elspeth, Polu, Siege Rhino ...) more effectively. The win condition is either card advantage (evil Genesis Wave, Treasure Ship) or Empty the Pits.
Deck number two is a variant of mono-black aggro. It plays primarily creatures (6-8 spells) and zero copies of Ascendancy. The key is finding the right Delve creatures to complement the curve, and getting the numbers right. Ideally you'd play cheap creatures and fill your graveyard by attacking with reckless abandon, then in the mid-game send out a Delve creature or two to continue the pressure. The problem is that Satyr Wayfinder and Nyx Weaver are horrible aggro creatures, but at least they do have a body. This version definitely wants 4X Grim Haruspex and 4X Bloodstained Warrior. Currently we only have Necropolis Fiend (4/5) and Hooting Mandrils (4/4) for playable creatures, but that may be enough.
I do think Necropolis Fiend is much more useful than I originally believed. While his cost is very high, he can still come down for BB later on when you need threats, and he is also an excellent reanimation target. With Whip out, he can work as a pseudo 2BB kill spell even from the grave. I just wish his body was a little more durable. As is he can still beat Stormbreath and Sarkhan (and the new Phoenix), but he trades or loses with other midrange threats. At 4/6 he'd have been stronger. But I'm still looking for something with Delve that works better as the aggro curve topper.
hornet queen, ashen rider, siege rhino, stormtide leviathan, soul cycle, scuttling doom engine. Probably more but that's a few options. Currently I'm basing my list off the GB midrange theros block deck.
As far as Delve is concerned only two cards jump at me so far. Murderous Cut and Treasured Cruise seems really playable, moreso than the Demon or Empty the Pits. Cut will compete with and most likely beat Downfall in this archetype, especially with Dispise picking up some slack and Treasured Cruise just seems like incredible value against Control and Midrange in the later stages of the game. There IS a self cannibalizing quality to Delve cards though so that's definitely something to look out for but out of every possible archetype out there, this just seems the one most suited to abuse it.
You're better of ramping to any 6-drops, and even 7-drops are debatable. Leviathan is stronk but too vulnerable -Ashen Rider really is the only valid target but he's on other colours and I wouldn't bother playing something you can't hard cast too.
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I've found that over a game, the three per turn mill spells tend to mill much more than Commune and Wayfinder. We'll see what gets printed at common/uncommon, but for now I prefer to load up my deck with more removal. I'm also adding in a few more reanimation targets, though my favorite is just bringing back Sidisi with Whip, possibly leaving me with 2 more tokens. I've tested Necropolis Fiend and Rakshasa Vizier at that slot. Fiend was interesting because he could kill a God or any other creature with other cards in the graveyard, but of course he couldn't attack while doing so. Vizier actually gets quite huge with Delve, though I'd never tap out to play him normally.
Even with 4 other Delve cards, I'm still winning a lot of games with Empty the Pits. First, a decent portion of those spells just get mills. Second, I am usually milling a constant 2-6 a turn, giving me room for a ton of fodder.
That sounds like the way I want to build the deck aswell. Care to show your list?
I'm currently running:
4 Sidisi, Blood Tyrant
3 Nyx Weaver
3 Brain Maggot
2 Embodiment of Spring
1 Rakshasa Vizier
Other permanents
3 Sultai Ascendancy
2 Whip of Erebos
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sultai Charm
2 Rakshasa's Secret
2 Murderous Cuts
2 Treasure Ship (testing Dig Through Time)
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Empty the Pits
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Temple of Malady
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
The deck still needs a lot of tuning, but I working from that as a base.
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Nemesis of Mortals
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Sultai Ascendancy
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Necropolis Fiend
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Island
2 Windswept Heath
2 Temple of Malady
3 Murderous Cut
3 Nyx Weaver
I see zero reason to try and play fair. If I'm putting tons of things into my gy, then damnit, I'm putting it ALL to use.
1) A discard outlet like lotleth troll
2) A creature I can play from my Gy.
If I had those two things, I'd be golden. As is, the deck is still very good.
Nix weaver also fills the roll of "playing creature from the yard."
Not sure if the 1-drops good enough. The deck while aggressive isn't that aggressive; at least I don't think so. Having another turn 1 play is probably excellent though since that's generally a blank on the curve most of the time. The ideal game goes turn 2 setup, turn 3 1 or multiple fatties.
The biggest flaw is that aside from being recurrable, the champion doesn't fit into the decks theme that well and doesn't interact profitably with delve. Worth testing.
If you really need those things, Necromancer's Stockpile and Bloodcrazed Champion will be in standard together. Not enough playable zombies to make use of it though.
4 Black Cat
4 Spiteful Returned
3 Gravedigger
3 Kheru Dreadmaw
2 Rotting Mastodon
2 Shambling Attendants
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Commune with the gods
4 Necromancer's Stockpile
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Empty the Pits
No. 3CMC to put cards in the graveyard and not affect the battlefield is not where you want to be, especially at sorcery speed. The deck is already truly awful early game, and all this card does is give you another empty turn. Sure you'll cast that 13/13 Nighthowler turn 4, but by then you'll be down to 4 life against any decent aggro deck. Grisly Salvage was at least instant speed so that you could hold up Doom Blade or Ultimate Price, and it came down a turn earlier. I don't even play Commune or Wayfinder anymore because I got tired of hitting turns 4-5 with absolutely zero board presence. Tiagem's Scheming is even worse in that it doesn't replace itself, meaning it is strict card disadvantage for no battlefield impact.
I've never played Ultimate Price or Doom Blade in my build, and only recently started using Hero's Downfall in the sideboard. Aggro is a tough matchup, but Elvish Mystic, Wayfinder, and Lotleth Troll always came down soon enough to at least allow chump blocking.
As much as it pains me, I plan to lean away from Nighthowler in KTK due to all the graveyard hate and exile effects. Instead, I'm looking more at Undergrowth Scavenger and Nemesis of Mortals because their graveyard-matters effects are permanent, and they work well with Retribution of the Ancients as a pseudo-replacement for Shadowborn Demon.
Will it work out? Maybe not, but I want to toy around with a straight BG list for a little while before I delve (hur hur) into the more mainstream BUG builds.
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GYisan Toolbox Combo/ControlG
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Nemesis of Mortals
4x Nighthowler
4x Nyx Weaver
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Commune with Nature
3x Murderous Cut
2x Whip of Erebos
Lands(23)
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Polluted Delta
4x Yavimaya Coast
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Mystery
1x Island
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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4x Bloodsoaked Champion
2x Boon Satyr
4x Elvish Mystic
1x Herald of Torment
4x Nighthowler
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
3x Nyx Weaver
4x Rakshasa Deathdealer
2x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Satyr Wayfinder
6x Forest
4x Llanowar Wastes
5x Swamp
4x Temple of Malady
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (2)
2x Murderous Cut
4x Commune with the Gods
Enchantment (3)
3x Strength from the Fallen
Artifact (2)
2x Whip of Erebos
Spot removal is less of a problem. Anger of the Gods and End Hostility is more of an issue than anything else.