Thoughtseize is warping the meta. People who say "it's strong but it's not too powerful, you just have to build around it... and mulligan with it in mind... and hope they don't have more than 1 copy in their opening hand... play burn." are pretty much just agreeing with that, but they won't admit it because they play the card themselves.
It's just too strong for the standard that we have right now, where card draw below 3 mana is almost all terrible(outside of black.)
Maybe in the next year we'll get some healthy answers, but until then T1 thoughtseize is going to define the format.
Card: Thoughtread
Cost: U
Rarity: Rare
Description: Counter target spell or ability. You lose 2 life. Thoughtread cannot be countered by spells or abilities.
How has this been posted this long ago and nobody has said Outwit?
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I feel like the problem with Thoughtseize is that it is too flexible too early in the game. Duress is fine because it only targets non-creature non-land stuff. A variant of Duress that only targets creatures I'd be fine with. But I think Thoughtsize, regardless of the life loss drawback, will always be too powerful for a 1 mana cost card. It's better than a counterspell, which has to be more limited at 2 mana, because it is more proactive, and grants information on the opponent's hand as well as targeting their best option, rather than having to play guessing games. Do you think wizards would be okay with creating a hard counterspell that always works at 1 mana with a drawback of losing 2 life, or something like that? Because yeah, Thoughtseize is _still_ better than that, since you get to see their hand and use it before they get a chance to do anything, possibly even before they've had a turn and thus a chance to play any lands to do anything about what you are doing.
1) Thoughtseize is generally bad for your tempo. Playing a thoughtseize instead a removal or a dude will generally leave you behind on board, unlike a counter
2) Thoughtseize is a *****ty topdeck, unlike a counter
Do you think wizards would be okay with creating a hard counterspell that always works at 1 mana with a drawback of losing 2 life, or something like that? Because yeah, Thoughtseize is _still_ better than that, since you get to see their hand and use it before they get a chance to do anything, possibly even before they've had a turn and thus a chance to play any lands to do anything about what you are doing.
I disagree with this. Mental Misstep is a ridiculously powerful card. It outweighs thoughtseize by a megaton in terms of power, and if it didn't have that CMC of 1 clause it'd be a second force of will but better, MUCH better.
I've played both with Thoughtseize decks and against Thoughtseize decks, and while it certainly shapes the format, you neither need to play it, nor mainboard against discard strategy. It's not all-encompassing, it's just a really, really good card.
As someone who played UW Control for most of Theros Standard and played vs 8 thoughtseize effects post board let me say that thoughtseize is a fine card. It is close to the definition of a fair card (loxodon smiter is the actual definition of a fair card). It can only one for one. It can never gain card advantage. It doesn't protect against the top of the deck and it is the worst card to draw when you are top decking.
Yes it make mulligan decisions hard but that doesn't make it broken or ban worthy. Saying that thoughtsieze forces you not to run a synergistic deck is silly when Mone Blue Devotion has been one of the top decks for all of theros standard and is a deck that relies on the payoff of master of waves or thassa.
Heres the bottom line: EVERY deck you play on mtgo standard 6 dollar cost tournaments on the winning side of the bracket has black in it. Pack Rat is the card that is exceptionally strong but doesn't effect the meta. Thoughtseize should be banned. You can't argue with this:
It ruins entire parts of the game before you even start playing...the mulligan...your deck building. It makes half the theros abilities unplayable. Have a constellation or two you want to build around? thoughtseized. Want to build around one or two heroic abilities. Thoughtseized hero. Thoughtseized or duressed protection spells. Master of waves in blue. thoughtseized. Many people were excited about Goblin Rabble master when it came out. Until they remembered thought seize. They could come out with more offensive staples like those just stated to over power thoughtseize but then there would be absolutely no long range decks or mill decks.
In response to most articulated argument on this page by Nev(that coincidently doesn't even argue against thoughtsieze in standard): "If you worry about pack rat, either be a deck that moves quickly and doesn't care, outsizes the rat for all reasonable amounts of time, or has removal." Well, that gives us two option...plus I have removal but when you have thought seized my best cards I can't even come back after I get pack rat.
And that is IF I happen to have that removal on the exact turn pack rat is played (because you know its going to populate itself in response). Oh, so I need two removal, and no strong card to follow it because it has been thoughtseized away
Here is my personal reason for writing this: I came back into the game wanting to play standard. It's what personally appeals to me. My only thoughts (And I have NEVER been into roleplaying or "into the backstory"" kind of guy) was that I didn't want to play black, I wanted some white heroes, and separately, I wanted to be competitive(I always am). Now I can't play. bye Wizards. Thanks for taking my money on the non-black, semi white standard decks I built and shoving it up my rear.
Again, Every competitive standard player has black in there deck now.
So really, bye. Everyone who defends standard thoughtseize can have fun playing in a dwindling game that is losing money and popularity everyday...oh and that means those boosters your winning are dwindling in value everyday too.
The poll at the top is poorly phrased. Notice how there is only one option for "it should be banned" and six others. The key point is that EVERYONE thinks it's a "special" part of the meta. The fact that the word meta is used without people getting pissed off means this is a poorly managed game. Wizards of the coast can do better than this. Judging by how poorly the online version is administered and how whole formats are so off balance I'd say some serious personal changes needs to be made at WOtC.
So a card impacting the meta... mean's its ban worthy?
Seriously thoughtseize is not that bad. Nor is it ban worthy by any margin.
There's no definition of a fair card. That's just your subjective experience. And UW control is the deck that by far cares the least about thoughtseize. It draws tonnes of cards and has no critical early game plays.
There's no definition of a fair card. That's just your subjective experience. And UW control is the deck that by far cares the least about thoughtseize. It draws tonnes of cards and has no critical early game plays.
I presume you are joking? UW cares very much about hand disruption. Thoughtseize + Duress is the easiest way to beat control (as a MBD player).
In fact, against control thoiughtseize is actually better because it's seldom a dead card (even in late game).
TS is probably (at least) in Top 3 most powerful card in standard, maybe even too strong, but hey, deck that plays it also plays 5 mana 2/4 creatures and sit-and-do-nothing enchantment which requires tapping land and paying life to get a single card.
What i wanna say is- MonoB wouldn't be viable at all without Thoughtseize and, even if too strong, it is hero Black deserves
gary and underworld connections are also very strong cards too. TS is a big part of it, but not the only ingredient to why mono black is so strong. they just have a lot of raw quality in their options.
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And I thought the modern ban list thread could get bad. Thoughtseize is fine, just be happy it's being followed up with Pack Rat and not Bitterblossom. Discard is a part of magic, and while Thoughtseize is strong, it's not the best, be happy it isn't Cabal Therapy or Hymn to Tourach.
There are plenty of ways to get around Thoughtseize, and small aggressive creatures tend to do it the best. If they Shock and then Thoughtseize burn will have a heyday with you. UW will out draw the mono black lists, and from my experience green devotion runs enough fatties and ramp that hitting one isn't going to hurt all that much. With rotation, this card looses a lot of support, so it will most likely see a downturn in play.
Again be happy your not playing Cawblade, Affinity, or Infect, they made for a much less fun standard.
I like Thoughtseize a lot. I actually think they reprinted it because it is an efficient way to disrupt combo decks in modern. When I see surveys asking people what they hate about the game the most, combo decks are usually up there with overly efficiency counterspells and land destruction. WotC would see results of a poll like that as a threat to the game - people quit when they don't like a format.
I like to play midrange/control or straight control decks a lot. Those kinds of decks are usually stacked with good cards. When my opponent casts their Thoughtseize, you'd be surprised how often they take a super strong card that I'm 4 turns from casting instead of a weaker one they turn out to not really have an answer for. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is taken a lot in today's standard.
What I've found in my time playing against Thoughtseize is that it's a great card. Phenomenal, in fact. However, it really isn't that threatening unless there is pressure behind it. It's basically got two roles on opposite ends of the spectrum:
1. In a control deck, you mainly use it to test the waters and see if the way is clear to resolve something more devastating.
2. In an aggressive deck, you use it to protect the lead that you are generating and hope that your opponent does not have the requisite answer to stop whatever it is you're doing.
So yeah, it's a great card, but people tend to play it wrong a lot of the time (i.e. just jamming it turn one every single match. While not a bad play, per se, it isn't necessarily optimal and who knows, you may want to give them more time to draw a card that is more disruptive to your game plan that may not have been apparent in the first turn or two of the game). This is not necessarily an argument for the card as even with people playing it sub-optimally it is still crushingly good.
There are times where it feels like Thoughtseize is super oppressive, but personally I think those are outweighed with the times where it's just simply another good card in the format.
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What if I genuinely like to cast Thoughtseizes? It makes me kinda sad that the card is kinda underwhelming right now. I'm currently running 0 in my midrange build.
What if I genuinely like to cast Thoughtseizes? It makes me kinda sad that the card is kinda underwhelming right now. I'm currently running 0 in my midrange build.
Yes i think thoughtseize is bad MB right now. SBing all 4 of them. since the meta is abzan midrange, mardu midrange, mono colored aggro and jeskai tempo(im not sure if thoughtseize is bad in this MU) i thought id board out all of my thoughtseize and put in a clock like boon satyr(I play junk standard). thoughtseize turns into a bad topdeck if youre going in game with a midrange deck and you both go to topdeck mode
It's just too strong for the standard that we have right now, where card draw below 3 mana is almost all terrible(outside of black.)
Maybe in the next year we'll get some healthy answers, but until then T1 thoughtseize is going to define the format.
How has this been posted this long ago and nobody has said Outwit?
1) Thoughtseize is generally bad for your tempo. Playing a thoughtseize instead a removal or a dude will generally leave you behind on board, unlike a counter
2) Thoughtseize is a *****ty topdeck, unlike a counter
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I disagree with this. Mental Misstep is a ridiculously powerful card. It outweighs thoughtseize by a megaton in terms of power, and if it didn't have that CMC of 1 clause it'd be a second force of will but better, MUCH better.
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I've played both with Thoughtseize decks and against Thoughtseize decks, and while it certainly shapes the format, you neither need to play it, nor mainboard against discard strategy. It's not all-encompassing, it's just a really, really good card.
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Yes it make mulligan decisions hard but that doesn't make it broken or ban worthy. Saying that thoughtsieze forces you not to run a synergistic deck is silly when Mone Blue Devotion has been one of the top decks for all of theros standard and is a deck that relies on the payoff of master of waves or thassa.
So a card impacting the meta... mean's its ban worthy?
Seriously thoughtseize is not that bad. Nor is it ban worthy by any margin.
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I presume you are joking? UW cares very much about hand disruption. Thoughtseize + Duress is the easiest way to beat control (as a MBD player).
In fact, against control thoiughtseize is actually better because it's seldom a dead card (even in late game).
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gary and underworld connections are also very strong cards too. TS is a big part of it, but not the only ingredient to why mono black is so strong. they just have a lot of raw quality in their options.
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
There are plenty of ways to get around Thoughtseize, and small aggressive creatures tend to do it the best. If they Shock and then Thoughtseize burn will have a heyday with you. UW will out draw the mono black lists, and from my experience green devotion runs enough fatties and ramp that hitting one isn't going to hurt all that much. With rotation, this card looses a lot of support, so it will most likely see a downturn in play.
Again be happy your not playing Cawblade, Affinity, or Infect, they made for a much less fun standard.
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I like to play midrange/control or straight control decks a lot. Those kinds of decks are usually stacked with good cards. When my opponent casts their Thoughtseize, you'd be surprised how often they take a super strong card that I'm 4 turns from casting instead of a weaker one they turn out to not really have an answer for. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is taken a lot in today's standard.
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1. In a control deck, you mainly use it to test the waters and see if the way is clear to resolve something more devastating.
2. In an aggressive deck, you use it to protect the lead that you are generating and hope that your opponent does not have the requisite answer to stop whatever it is you're doing.
So yeah, it's a great card, but people tend to play it wrong a lot of the time (i.e. just jamming it turn one every single match. While not a bad play, per se, it isn't necessarily optimal and who knows, you may want to give them more time to draw a card that is more disruptive to your game plan that may not have been apparent in the first turn or two of the game). This is not necessarily an argument for the card as even with people playing it sub-optimally it is still crushingly good.
There are times where it feels like Thoughtseize is super oppressive, but personally I think those are outweighed with the times where it's just simply another good card in the format.
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Yes i think thoughtseize is bad MB right now. SBing all 4 of them. since the meta is abzan midrange, mardu midrange, mono colored aggro and jeskai tempo(im not sure if thoughtseize is bad in this MU) i thought id board out all of my thoughtseize and put in a clock like boon satyr(I play junk standard). thoughtseize turns into a bad topdeck if youre going in game with a midrange deck and you both go to topdeck mode