Top players and casual players alike have spoken out against this card, citing it as game-disrupting in a disproportionate way; wrecking mulligan decisions and deckbuilding plans.
Others argue that Thoughtseize, in the end, is still 1-for-1 with a life disadvantage, that it is not all that good against aggro/burn decks where a 2 life penalty can be lethal, and that it mainly shines as an early draw.
So, let's get a picture of what Standard players really think of playing *against* this card. I've tried creating a poll with a variety of statements about the card, so I hope your opinion is represented among them.
Honestly, I think if it wasn't followed up by a Pack Rat 90% of the time people would care a hell of a lot less about it. It is a very powerful card, but one you just have to live with. I am mindful of it in every opening hand, which sometimes leads me to keeping hands I'd have otherwise sent back and hope my deck treats me well.
I take a little bit of pride in not getting too upset over my opponent's plays, and Thoughtseize is basically fine by me. As I mentioned before though, its the follow up Pack Rat that makes me want to just scoop and walk away. I don't think I've ever hated a card more
The cards is powerful but totally fine.
It keeps decks in check that want to be non-interactive or are poorly built and thats why I appreciate it. Besides it's still just a 1-for-1 trade so there is nothing overpowered about it and its not a good topdeck in the later parts of the game.
I have the feeling many people(not all of them) who complain about it are also the ones who hate removal and counterspells since those also invalidate plays that you would like to make.
I basically agree. Thoughtseize is powerful, but not beyond the power cards should have in Standard. Yes, the card stands out as a high power card in a (generally) low power set, but so do Sphinx's Revelation, Jace, Architect of Thought, Master of Waves, Boros Reckoner, Voice of Resurgance and a few others.
What can be slightly annoying is Thoughtseize followed by Pack Rat when Mono Black Devotion is on the play. For some decks, this isn't really easy to come back from, especially not if the Mono Black player has a Mutavault or a second Pack Rat in his/her hand.
Edit: Another thing that's slightly annoying is getting Thoughtseized on turn one of Game 1, when you don't even know you're facing Mono Black Devotion. It can wreck an "ok-ish" hand that you wouldn't have kept in that match-up, but would have been fine otherwise. I guess the moral of the story is never to keep highly risky hands until Thoughtseize rotates, which could be a sound strategy anyway.
Exactly. How is it that Thoughtseize is too powerful, but a card like Sphinx's Revelation is just fine. Imagine Standard without Sphinx's Revelation, a lot of decks wouldn't exist or would be drastically different. You just have to accept what's there and work with it, or work around it.
Don't get me started on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again until wizards bans this son of a b#!?@! card.
Thoughtseize is the cheapest card going around. It takes no skill whatsoever and completely wrecks average hands, let alone playable hands. For only 2 life and 1 mana, that's completely broken tier. If anything it should cost 5 life or 3 mana so decks have a chance to counter that disgusting turn 1 play.
Thoughtseize ruins everyone's fun. You buy these cards with your hard earned cash just for someone to Thoughtseize it so you can't even use what you paid for. They then proceed to believe they are actually good at this game, after mulling to 1 land hands, just so they can take out your win cons or threats, without fear of being countered. How is that fun? How is that skillful?
Thoughtseize players, in general don't have the ability to create awe inspiring decks.
They lack creativity, inspiration and dedication.
Instead, they turn their frustrations out into a pathetic hobby under the guise of fun.
It's always fun to make others miserable, when you, yourself are miserable on the inside.
I pity you Thoughtseize players.
I pity your lack of contribution and subhuman skill.
I pity your underdeveloped sense of achievement and poor taste in humour.
You want to join in but you can't.
So you ruin it for everyone else by playing Thoughtseize.
Not everyone can build a competitive deck, but anyone can rip that $15 Stormbreath Dragon out of your hand before you even get a chance to play your first land drop.
Find a game that tailors to your natural skills, like running into a brick wall the fastest, or seeing how many fingers you can lose before pulling your hand out of a blender.
You just have to find what it is you're good at, instead of dragging everyone else down to your level.
Don't get me started on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again until wizards bans this son of a b#!?@! card.
Thoughtseize is the cheapest card going around. It takes no skill whatsoever and completely wrecks average hands, let alone playable hands. For only 2 life and 1 mana, that's completely broken tier. If anything it should cost 5 life or 3 mana so decks have a chance to counter that disgusting turn 1 play.
Thoughtseize ruins everyone's fun. You buy these cards with your hard earned cash just for someone to Thoughtseize it so you can't even use what you paid for. They then proceed to believe they are actually good at this game, after mulling to 1 land hands, just so they can take out your win cons or threats, without fear of being countered. How is that fun? How is that skillful?
Thoughtseize players, in general don't have the ability to create awe inspiring decks.
They lack creativity, inspiration and dedication.
Instead, they turn their frustrations out into a pathetic hobby under the guise of fun.
It's always fun to make others miserable, when you, yourself are miserable on the inside.
I pity you Thoughtseize players.
I pity your lack of contribution and subhuman skill.
I pity your underdeveloped sense of achievement and poor taste in humour.
You want to join in but you can't.
So you ruin it for everyone else by playing Thoughtseize.
Not everyone can build a competitive deck, but anyone can rip that $15 Stormbreath Dragon out of your hand before you even get a chance to play your first land drop.
Find a game that tailors to your natural skills, like running into a brick wall the fastest, or seeing how many fingers you can lose before pulling your hand out of a blender.
You just have to find what it is you're good at, instead of dragging everyone else down to your level.
Good lord. I know you're just trolling here, but I marvel at the effort you've put in. It hits the first 7 cards you have access too. There are 53 left in your deck. Get a grip.
My opinion comes as a solid aggro player (WW/RDW) but I seriously don't mind Thoughtseize. It's a skill-tester card, which there should be, and its strength varies. If they Thoughtseize out a Thassa, the only difference between it and Revoke Existence (a card I haven't heard anyone complain about) is that with Revoke you were forced to pay mana before losing your expensive card with no gain. It's premoval-- removal that works before the card hits the battlefield. That's very good, and Thoughtseizing a Verdict is a very good play because Verdict can't be countered, but the look on MBD players' faces when they turn one Thoughtseize and see a hand full of burn is priceless. Why yes, thank you for the free Shock!
reprint Hymn to Tourach and then you'll have a conversation.
Thoughtseize is a card in the metagame. Plan accordingly. If your deck is folding to top cards like Thoughtseize, Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, in a few weeks Drown in Sorrow, etc., then that's your fault for improper deck building, or over-extension, etc.
It's a fine card, but maybe that's because I'm usually the one casting it.
Is the effect powerful? Yes. But it comes at a price - as someone said, aggro players in Game 1 are happy when you Thoughtseize and see that clock of a hand, realizing you just helped them race you.
What I like about it is it's a card that promotes intelligent play. Often a wrong card removed with Thoughtseize can end up actually costing you the match. It's still just a 1-for-1 discard spell (and you spent mana on it), after all.
It's a very powerful card, and it rewards good thinking/intelligent play - but at the same time, it can also set you back big and comes at a cost.
Even as a UW Control player, I don't think Thoughtseize is that unhealthy for the format. They'll only have it in their opening hand 50% of the time. Like a lot of people are saying, Pack Rat is a lot worse for the format. Hopefully the answers in BNG will stop people from playing the Rat as a 4-of.
It's format warping - you t...seize them only to grab their t..seize - what a stupid situation - the counterspells and cantrips are nerfed, but attacking the hand is not??? This card wouldn't be oppressive, if MonoBlack Control/Devotion wasn't a thing, thank you, wizards...
Discarding, LD and Counterspells are hated by the majority of the mtg players.
Magic wouldn't be Magic without those things, though. Magic operates on multiple "planes" (pun intended) of resources. Life total, hand size / card advantage, access to mana, and what you have on the battlefield. I'm sure there are more. If you take away the ability to attack any of those, then those "planes" grow in advantage and then themselves become oppressive. There need to be checks and balances on all of the resources.
Magic is a Chess game with variance. Don't try to make it Checkers.
Just calling you on this one. Unless you're trying to mill them out with Thoughtseizes, they don't have 53 card left.
You're taking the best one in 7 + x turns (let's say 8-15 for MBDev).
And they'll probably do it again at least 1 time.
So that's 2/20 cards. Discounting lands, that's 2/12 active cards.
TS is an amazing card.
Fair enough, I was hardly being scientific in my reply there.
Without Thoughtseize, and Monoblack, BU control would "control" all of Standard. There would be no reason to play any other deck. Granted, Monoblack and BU-control are dominating Standard, but it's better than 1 deck represented. I wish both decks would go away, but 2 new ones would fill their shoes instantly. It's just how Standard is.
Without Thoughtseize, and Monoblack, BU control would "control" all of Standard. There would be no reason to play any other deck. Granted, Monoblack and BU-control are dominating Standard, but it's better than 1 deck represented. I wish both decks would go away, but 2 new ones would fill their shoes instantly. It's just how Standard is.
Very true. Then we'd hear about banning domri or elvish mystic or something.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Oh hai wizards can u umm plz give us back force of will so we can kinda like counter this before we get a turn and lightning bolt too just to make it u know fair for every deck yea and oh nearly forgot jace tms since u kinda hit a purple patch printing these broken tier cards like thoughtseize atm oh thx gaiz!
If Thragtusk didn't get banned Thoughtseize won't either. And if losing one card totally destroys you then your deck was too fragile to be competitive anyway. And to the poster talking about spending money on cards just to have them thoughtseized you're funny. Last I checked Thoughtseize was 15$ too. And T1 Thoughtseize taking a stormbreath is a terrible play. And how is it different then getting verdict'd or sphered? Nothing says fun like getting a player to 1 life then watch them rev for 6. Advent of the wurm is a lot of fun too. Oh you just flashed in a 5/5 trampler on turn 4. Sweet. Thoughtsieze is no different than any other powerful card. It's a pain you have to play around. Just like VoR, Domri, Brimaz, <insert powerful card here>.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
The cons outweigh the pros for me. I run a control deck that features trading post, and while I have answers for black, TS can blow you out turn one.
These are the pros and cons I've gathered about Thoughtseize in standard.
Pros
-checks powers cards in pure control decks
-makes black playable
-one for one removal
Cons
-Unable to counter on the draw
-one for one that strips any card for one B mana
-under costed/weak drawback
-supremely overpowered in multiples
-splashable
-legal in the same format with duress
-auto loss after mulligan
...
Sure, there are some match-ups TS is dead against, but we're talking about how it affects the full scope of standard. If you have more than a few people complaining about the card, then it's a problem. Unfortunately, there's nothing that can be done.
Again, my deck can't stand thoughtseize because it's the only card I feel gives the opponent an advantage. Of course everyone who thinks the card is fine doesn't suffer the same conflict. The other proponents are the ones who play it themselves.
Funny story. I actually had an opponent apologize to me after playing two thoughtseize after I mulligan'd, and then proceeded to scoop. It was rather consoling, and I couldn't help but laugh.
Thoughtseize is fine. People will always complain about something.
How does Thoughtseize compare to Brimaz?
How does Thoughtseize compare to Shinx's Rev?
How does Thoughtseize compare to Voice? Reckoner?
If used right, it's a 1-for-1 removal of the greatest threat in a player's hand at the time it is cast. It doesn't stop the target from drawing another card/threat on later terms, nor does it win games by itself. Yes, it can enable other cards to win you the game (currently, Pack Rat seems to be the card of choice for that) but by itself, it beats a single card at the cost of a mana and 2 life.
I have played with Thoughtseize, and i have played against it. Is it a good card? yes, but so are so many others.
As far as how it shapes the format, it makes some cards that were thought to be pretty poor usable (Pack Rat), and it encourages decks to have some form of redundancy for the critical parts of their plan. That's all.
People that are whining that it "takes no skill" and belittling others for playing it remind me of the many sore-losing cry-babies that angrily scoop up their cards and leave after they've been beaten without appreciating the finer points of the game. Every shop has them, and they are welcome to cry and complain all day long.
It's really powerful. It's the equivalent of having the black version of mana leak or lightning bolt in the format. Just a powerful card you have to deal with.
Pack Rat is the only card I actually get annoyed by in standard right now
Being as I play boros burn, this makes me want bolt back that much more. Thoughtseize is rough but they might wince a little peeking at a hand holding bolt, bolt 2x mountains and 3 other cards.
Where is our thoughtseize equivalent?
It's really powerful. It's the equivalent of having the black version of mana leak or lightning bolt in the format. Just a powerful card you have to deal with.
This is a pretty good way to describe it. It's a very good card no doubt, probably the most powerful in Standard overall but it's not so busted that it makes the format unfun IMO.
The life loss means nothing with Gray Merchant of Asphodel lurking.
It's like making blue discard a card for Force of Will. It matters not when the same color can draw cards to replace it. The card just becomes broken.
The card is format warping in a way that certain decks are unplayable. This means aggro decks that run light on creatures. You're already getting 2 for 1'd by removal when you play auras and combat tricks and if you only have 2 creatures in a hand and your best one gets Thoughtseized away it's hard to recover.
Wizards hate printing undercosted counterspells yet will give black all these undercosted removal and discard spells.
They go straight up to 8 discard spells against decks that don't play into their removal with creatures.
It is my hope that once the following cards rotate this absolute fun killer of a deck will go out of fashion.
The life loss means nothing with Gray Merchant of Asphodel lurking.
It's like making blue discard a card for Force of Will. It matters not when the same color can draw cards to replace it. The card just becomes broken.
The card is format warping in a way that certain decks are unplayable. This means aggro decks that run light on creatures. You're already getting 2 for 1'd by removal when you play auras and combat tricks and if you only have 2 creatures in a hand and your best one gets Thoughtseized away it's hard to recover.
Wizards hate printing undercosted counterspells yet will give black all these undercosted removal and discard spells.
They go straight up to 8 discard spells against decks that don't play into their removal with creatures.
It is my hope that once the following cards rotate this absolute fun killer of a deck will go out of fashion.
What aggro decks run light on creatures though? Aggro decks, by definition, typically run more creatures than most decks. They aim to swarm the board quickly in order to get around/under control and spot removal to get the opponent from 20 to 0 quickly. Aggro decks typically have an advantage against Mono Black for that very reason. The threat density presented by aggro decks counteracts/overloads the removal available to Mono Black. Now, Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow fix that particular problem so once those hit it will be interesting to see how aggro decks fair. But Thoughtseize is generally a card those decks could care less about.
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Others argue that Thoughtseize, in the end, is still 1-for-1 with a life disadvantage, that it is not all that good against aggro/burn decks where a 2 life penalty can be lethal, and that it mainly shines as an early draw.
So, let's get a picture of what Standard players really think of playing *against* this card. I've tried creating a poll with a variety of statements about the card, so I hope your opinion is represented among them.
I take a little bit of pride in not getting too upset over my opponent's plays, and Thoughtseize is basically fine by me. As I mentioned before though, its the follow up Pack Rat that makes me want to just scoop and walk away. I don't think I've ever hated a card more
It keeps decks in check that want to be non-interactive or are poorly built and thats why I appreciate it. Besides it's still just a 1-for-1 trade so there is nothing overpowered about it and its not a good topdeck in the later parts of the game.
I have the feeling many people(not all of them) who complain about it are also the ones who hate removal and counterspells since those also invalidate plays that you would like to make.
Exactly. How is it that Thoughtseize is too powerful, but a card like Sphinx's Revelation is just fine. Imagine Standard without Sphinx's Revelation, a lot of decks wouldn't exist or would be drastically different. You just have to accept what's there and work with it, or work around it.
Thoughtseize is the cheapest card going around. It takes no skill whatsoever and completely wrecks average hands, let alone playable hands. For only 2 life and 1 mana, that's completely broken tier. If anything it should cost 5 life or 3 mana so decks have a chance to counter that disgusting turn 1 play.
Thoughtseize ruins everyone's fun. You buy these cards with your hard earned cash just for someone to Thoughtseize it so you can't even use what you paid for. They then proceed to believe they are actually good at this game, after mulling to 1 land hands, just so they can take out your win cons or threats, without fear of being countered. How is that fun? How is that skillful?
Thoughtseize players, in general don't have the ability to create awe inspiring decks.
They lack creativity, inspiration and dedication.
Instead, they turn their frustrations out into a pathetic hobby under the guise of fun.
It's always fun to make others miserable, when you, yourself are miserable on the inside.
I pity you Thoughtseize players.
I pity your lack of contribution and subhuman skill.
I pity your underdeveloped sense of achievement and poor taste in humour.
You want to join in but you can't.
So you ruin it for everyone else by playing Thoughtseize.
Not everyone can build a competitive deck, but anyone can rip that $15 Stormbreath Dragon out of your hand before you even get a chance to play your first land drop.
Find a game that tailors to your natural skills, like running into a brick wall the fastest, or seeing how many fingers you can lose before pulling your hand out of a blender.
You just have to find what it is you're good at, instead of dragging everyone else down to your level.
Infraction for flaming. -Sasky
Good lord. I know you're just trolling here, but I marvel at the effort you've put in. It hits the first 7 cards you have access too. There are 53 left in your deck. Get a grip.
Thoughtseize is a card in the metagame. Plan accordingly. If your deck is folding to top cards like Thoughtseize, Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, in a few weeks Drown in Sorrow, etc., then that's your fault for improper deck building, or over-extension, etc.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Is the effect powerful? Yes. But it comes at a price - as someone said, aggro players in Game 1 are happy when you Thoughtseize and see that clock of a hand, realizing you just helped them race you.
What I like about it is it's a card that promotes intelligent play. Often a wrong card removed with Thoughtseize can end up actually costing you the match. It's still just a 1-for-1 discard spell (and you spent mana on it), after all.
It's a very powerful card, and it rewards good thinking/intelligent play - but at the same time, it can also set you back big and comes at a cost.
Magic wouldn't be Magic without those things, though. Magic operates on multiple "planes" (pun intended) of resources. Life total, hand size / card advantage, access to mana, and what you have on the battlefield. I'm sure there are more. If you take away the ability to attack any of those, then those "planes" grow in advantage and then themselves become oppressive. There need to be checks and balances on all of the resources.
Magic is a Chess game with variance. Don't try to make it Checkers.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Fair enough, I was hardly being scientific in my reply there.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Very true. Then we'd hear about banning domri or elvish mystic or something.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Assuming you have a winnable board state with them running dsphere and last breaths.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
These are the pros and cons I've gathered about Thoughtseize in standard.
Pros
-checks powers cards in pure control decks
-makes black playable
-one for one removal
Cons
-Unable to counter on the draw
-one for one that strips any card for one B mana
-under costed/weak drawback
-supremely overpowered in multiples
-splashable
-legal in the same format with duress
-auto loss after mulligan
...
Sure, there are some match-ups TS is dead against, but we're talking about how it affects the full scope of standard. If you have more than a few people complaining about the card, then it's a problem. Unfortunately, there's nothing that can be done.
Again, my deck can't stand thoughtseize because it's the only card I feel gives the opponent an advantage. Of course everyone who thinks the card is fine doesn't suffer the same conflict. The other proponents are the ones who play it themselves.
Funny story. I actually had an opponent apologize to me after playing two thoughtseize after I mulligan'd, and then proceeded to scoop. It was rather consoling, and I couldn't help but laugh.
STANDARD
UB Midrange
Modern
U-Tron
How does Thoughtseize compare to Brimaz?
How does Thoughtseize compare to Shinx's Rev?
How does Thoughtseize compare to Voice? Reckoner?
If used right, it's a 1-for-1 removal of the greatest threat in a player's hand at the time it is cast. It doesn't stop the target from drawing another card/threat on later terms, nor does it win games by itself. Yes, it can enable other cards to win you the game (currently, Pack Rat seems to be the card of choice for that) but by itself, it beats a single card at the cost of a mana and 2 life.
I have played with Thoughtseize, and i have played against it. Is it a good card? yes, but so are so many others.
As far as how it shapes the format, it makes some cards that were thought to be pretty poor usable (Pack Rat), and it encourages decks to have some form of redundancy for the critical parts of their plan. That's all.
People that are whining that it "takes no skill" and belittling others for playing it remind me of the many sore-losing cry-babies that angrily scoop up their cards and leave after they've been beaten without appreciating the finer points of the game. Every shop has them, and they are welcome to cry and complain all day long.
Being as I play boros burn, this makes me want bolt back that much more. Thoughtseize is rough but they might wince a little peeking at a hand holding bolt, bolt 2x mountains and 3 other cards.
Where is our thoughtseize equivalent?
This is a pretty good way to describe it. It's a very good card no doubt, probably the most powerful in Standard overall but it's not so busted that it makes the format unfun IMO.
It's like making blue discard a card for Force of Will. It matters not when the same color can draw cards to replace it. The card just becomes broken.
The card is format warping in a way that certain decks are unplayable. This means aggro decks that run light on creatures. You're already getting 2 for 1'd by removal when you play auras and combat tricks and if you only have 2 creatures in a hand and your best one gets Thoughtseized away it's hard to recover.
Wizards hate printing undercosted counterspells yet will give black all these undercosted removal and discard spells.
They go straight up to 8 discard spells against decks that don't play into their removal with creatures.
It is my hope that once the following cards rotate this absolute fun killer of a deck will go out of fashion.
Duress
Doom Blade
Devour Flesh
Pack Rat
Underworld Connections
Ultimate Price
Desecration Demon
What aggro decks run light on creatures though? Aggro decks, by definition, typically run more creatures than most decks. They aim to swarm the board quickly in order to get around/under control and spot removal to get the opponent from 20 to 0 quickly. Aggro decks typically have an advantage against Mono Black for that very reason. The threat density presented by aggro decks counteracts/overloads the removal available to Mono Black. Now, Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow fix that particular problem so once those hit it will be interesting to see how aggro decks fair. But Thoughtseize is generally a card those decks could care less about.
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