Quote from The Other GuyHaving a Wrath effect in this context is irrelevant, once again, using block as an example, Grixis fares better against red based aggro when compared to Esper, despite having no wraths to Esper's 4. Grixis also fares better against other control decks due to its versatile sideboard options and vastly superior main board configuration against it.
Grixis however fairs poorly against GW, BRW and GB based strategies due to the disruptive cards those decks have at their disposal. If Grixis were to remain unppopular after rotation, the above would be the main reasons why, not not having a sweeper in our colors, something that, once again, is ineffective against the very lists BRU is bad against in the first place.
Quote from AegraenWith the mana available, I doubt those Esper lists hardly ever hit a T4 Wrath. I don't see how a control shell without wrath is ever favored against something like RG BTE aggro. Perhaps, if we get more efficient removal and more efficient card draw that we could skip the wrath, but barring those things (something like Ponder + PtE), wraths are necessary for certain MU's.
Also, let's be frank here. We have to discuss M14 along with Block to get any useful predictive analysis. Purposefully ignoring M14 will only give you false perceptions. The fact that you are going to want to play Doom Blade and Lifebane Zombie somewhere in your 75 means you're going to either play less U cards (I doubt it), or less R cards (obviously this will be the case). This means you're not really gaining all that much for what you're sacrificing to run a third color.
Dimir Charm has enough applications against Aggro and Control shells to be maindeckable and takes care of your 'trump' cards like Rakdos Return and Dreadbore. Let's also take into account the fact that Burning Earth will be very ubiquitous for the entire time it's standard legal. Look at how many nonbasics you have to be able to run 3 colors, and laggy 3 colors at that (so many CITPT lands). You're almost conceding RDW MU's, BTE MU's, and possibly RW if that becomes a thing. That's not a spot I want to be in.
This isn't even taking into account we'll probably get something in UB to replace what we're losing (Think Twice / Mutilate). Which means these cards are probably going to be better in conjunction with a better manabase and more consistency than whatever R offers. There's a reason why traditionally control is 2 colors in Standard. We're losing buddy lands, which means the mana will be even worse, and from playing 3 and 4C Control this Standard while the mana was very good there were so many times that I didn't have the right combination to cast the cards I needed to. I can't imagine running 3 colors with a worse mana base + Burning Earth running around.
For all the control players out there, I recommend sticking to UB or UW post-Innistrad.
Quote from ipoodinyourshoeIf you untap with burning vengeance and a liliana, you get to do things that are so dirty you should be required by law to shower after.
Quote from PJ IWhat about blind obedience in the 2 drop spot? It definately helps against creature decks and has extort.
Quote from PJ IWe need an "augur of bolas" type card to fill that gap or a "think twice" kind of card.
Quote from fatsnorlaxGrixis control looks really good.
GrixisMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Land26 Land2 AEtherling3 Thassa, God of the Sea4 Jace, Architect of Thought2 Ral Zarek3 Magma Jet2 Turn // Burn3 Far // Away2 Mizzium Mortars2 Rakdos's Return2 Opportunity2 Dreadbore1 Doom Blade3 Syncopate1 Essence Scatter1 Counterflux1 Izzet Charm
This deck has some nice game against aggro and control, and already has a couple of new friends in Theros. It also has more (and better) two drops than UW, though UWR could show up thanks to Magma Jet. Thoughts?
Quote from The Other GuyWell cashsieze just threw most of what I said out the window. Black now gives you access to 8 possible duress affects on top of stuff like Slaughter Games, you better have a damn good reason to not splash black and go Esper/Grixis.
"Better mana" is really not much of an excuse at this point.
Quote from PJ II love your interaction on this thread TOG! So what finishers do we have in esper?? Is blood baron considered a finisher?? We already pack 2 atherling. I do like the 1/3 guy who scry's for 2. He's really really close to augur of bolas, minus the card draw. Can we come up with a mock list?? Does the blue God make the esper control list?? Thoughts?
Quote from endgame1331Doesn't Omenspeaker provide a semi efficient Augur of Bolas replacement. It doesn't dig as deep or add a card, but it does give you a good body against aggro and provide card selection without forcing you into a instant/sorcery heavy build. I honestly think it's a toss up between witch of the control decks takes the spotlight post rotation, but going off of block, the number of cards it gains post rotation, and the small number of cards it loses, that Grixis will be top dog of the control decks, though I would feel better saying this if I knew what the duals were, and Theros being Enchantment heavy might make it worse (not if current print run is anything to go by, every enchantment that's good so far has something else stapled onto it). That's my two cents on it anyway.
Quote from ValarinI can't believe anyone is excited about this card. It is absolutely unplayable. I wouldn't even play her in LIMITED. Easily the worst walker printed since the green elf one. Absolutely terrible.