Having a Wrath effect in this context is irrelevant, once again, using block as an example, Grixis fares better against red based aggro when compared to Esper, despite having no wraths to Esper's 4. Grixis also fares better against other control decks due to its versatile sideboard options and vastly superior main board configuration against it.
Grixis however fairs poorly against GW, BRW and GB based strategies due to the disruptive cards those decks have at their disposal. If Grixis were to remain unppopular after rotation, the above would be the main reasons why, not not having a sweeper in our colors, something that, once again, is ineffective against the very lists BRU is bad against in the first place.
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Having a Wrath effect in this context is irrelevant, once again, using block as an example, Grixis fares better against red based aggro when compared to Esper, despite having no wraths to Esper's 4. Grixis also fares better against other control decks due to its versatile sideboard options and vastly superior main board configuration against it.
Grixis however fairs poorly against GW, BRW and GB based strategies due to the disruptive cards those decks have at their disposal. If Grixis were to remain unppopular after rotation, the above would be the main reasons why, not not having a sweeper in our colors, something that, once again, is ineffective against the very lists BRU is bad against in the first place.
With the mana available, I doubt those Esper lists hardly ever hit a T4 Wrath. I don't see how a control shell without wrath is ever favored against something like RG BTE aggro. Perhaps, if we get more efficient removal and more efficient card draw that we could skip the wrath, but barring those things (something like Ponder + PtE), wraths are necessary for certain MU's.
Also, let's be frank here. We have to discuss M14 along with Block to get any useful predictive analysis. Purposefully ignoring M14 will only give you false perceptions. The fact that you are going to want to play Doom Blade and Lifebane Zombie somewhere in your 75 means you're going to either play less U cards (I doubt it), or less R cards (obviously this will be the case). This means you're not really gaining all that much for what you're sacrificing to run a third color.
Dimir Charm has enough applications against Aggro and Control shells to be maindeckable and takes care of your 'trump' cards like Rakdos Return and Dreadbore. Let's also take into account the fact that Burning Earth will be very ubiquitous for the entire time it's standard legal. Look at how many nonbasics you have to be able to run 3 colors, and laggy 3 colors at that (so many CITPT lands). You're almost conceding RDW MU's, BTE MU's, and possibly RW if that becomes a thing. That's not a spot I want to be in.
This isn't even taking into account we'll probably get something in UB to replace what we're losing (Think Twice / Mutilate). Which means these cards are probably going to be better in conjunction with a better manabase and more consistency than whatever R offers. There's a reason why traditionally control is 2 colors in Standard. We're losing buddy lands, which means the mana will be even worse, and from playing 3 and 4C Control this Standard while the mana was very good there were so many times that I didn't have the right combination to cast the cards I needed to. I can't imagine running 3 colors with a worse mana base + Burning Earth running around.
For all the control players out there, I recommend sticking to UB or UW post-Innistrad.
With the mana available, I doubt those Esper lists hardly ever hit a T4 Wrath. I don't see how a control shell without wrath is ever favored against something like RG BTE aggro. Perhaps, if we get more efficient removal and more efficient card draw that we could skip the wrath, but barring those things (something like Ponder + PtE), wraths are necessary for certain MU's.
Also, let's be frank here. We have to discuss M14 along with Block to get any useful predictive analysis. Purposefully ignoring M14 will only give you false perceptions. The fact that you are going to want to play Doom Blade and Lifebane Zombie somewhere in your 75 means you're going to either play less U cards (I doubt it), or less R cards (obviously this will be the case). This means you're not really gaining all that much for what you're sacrificing to run a third color.
Dimir Charm has enough applications against Aggro and Control shells to be maindeckable and takes care of your 'trump' cards like Rakdos Return and Dreadbore. Let's also take into account the fact that Burning Earth will be very ubiquitous for the entire time it's standard legal. Look at how many nonbasics you have to be able to run 3 colors, and laggy 3 colors at that (so many CITPT lands). You're almost conceding RDW MU's, BTE MU's, and possibly RW if that becomes a thing. That's not a spot I want to be in.
This isn't even taking into account we'll probably get something in UB to replace what we're losing (Think Twice / Mutilate). Which means these cards are probably going to be better in conjunction with a better manabase and more consistency than whatever R offers. There's a reason why traditionally control is 2 colors in Standard. We're losing buddy lands, which means the mana will be even worse, and from playing 3 and 4C Control this Standard while the mana was very good there were so many times that I didn't have the right combination to cast the cards I needed to. I can't imagine running 3 colors with a worse mana base + Burning Earth running around.
For all the control players out there, I recommend sticking to UB or UW post-Innistrad.
I completely agree. THIS is actually 1 of the main reasons I always stick to UB or UW or some iteration of control with 2 colors when the mana is the way it is going to be post-rotation. It's easy to say I have X cards more than you and my pool of X cards choices is way better but in all honesty none of that matters if your taking a hit to consistency in your deck.
Staying consistent is one of the best things I love about control. If you just build your deck in such a way that it is consistent and doesn't cave to itself, all you have to do is tweak for your meta slightly and you got yourself a pretty awesome chance at winning if you just focus on decreasing your misplays
Excellent points gentlemen. Points I can't find fault with. With these points in mind which is the superior color combination. I think the edge goes to U/W. I know both control decks will be strong come rotation, but the azorious deck seems to have the sweepers and the card draw. Throw in azorious charm, detention sphere and aetherling for a finisher, we have the making of a pretty good deck. What's do you guys think?? Discuss.
If I were to start up a straight UW list the first thing I would do is adress the glaring gap that is turns 1 to 3. It is a known weakness that is somewhat adressed in block by the inclusion of Precinct Captians and a larger focus on azurius charm and detention sphere. Understanding the curve of your answers in relation to the threats of the field is even more important when you have a limited card pool to work with.
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Excellent point TOG. We need an "augur of bolas" type card to fill that gap or a "think twice" kind of card. Right now there are zero good 1 drops and maybe even less 2 drops (I dont think azorious charm counts) Thoughts?
Run more counters: Syncopate, Negate, Essence Scatter (gets better with Cavern rotating). If you really want a 1-drop Quicken lets you play your Verdicts at instant speed. Although with Magma Jet spoiled, I'd expect Blue to end up with some more Scry cards other than the God (which I don't feel is good enough to see play in control).
What about blind obedience in the 2 drop spot? It definately helps against creature decks and has extort.
But at the same time it is a pretty miserable option to have in your main against pretty much everything else. BO is good, very good in fact, but I defenitely like it more out of the board.
I would probably start with a heavier white base as it would give me easier access to options in the way of Precinct Captain, Celestial Flare, and even threatening a Silence in their untap step if that is your thing.
It's very important however to know what it is your deck ultimately want's to "do"
Do you want to deplete your opponents resources and play "bigger" threats of your own like Aetherling and Angel of Serenity or are you more interested in the tempo game? What you play is directly tied into how you ultimately want the game to play out. In my example above I aim to have a potential out to most, if not all turn 1/2 plays depending if I'm on the play or on the draw, slowing the game down with either creatures/walls or counters/charms till I get to at least 4 mana.
This is satge 1
In stage 2 I want to either pressure my opponent into staying in his stage 1 for as long as possible, be that by resetting the field with Supreme Verdict, counterering his key cards or playing hard to deal with threats that also provide me some means of advantage benificial to my overall plan, in this case Jace Architect of Thought or even the new god Thassa, if the board allows it. Through the combination of counters, removal, creatures/walkers I would aim to pull far enough ahead that I can either start playing my late game threats, win through the incremental advantages that my other plays have provided me, or start playing "big" spells (aka Sphinx/Oppertunity) that just pulls me so far ahead that it makes it very difficult for opponents to recover from the resulting CA that these spells can generate.
That would be stage 3
It is very easy to simply add spells like Sphinx Revelation, Opportunity, Supreme Verdict, just to name a few, to your deck and call it a day. Even a "tweaked" list with optimal counters, removal and threats, is nothing more than a pile of cards if you do not understand both how you want to win and ultimately what steps you need to take to get there.
This may seem like a very long and roundabout way of saying or going about it, but very often, and especially when you are dealing with powerful cards such as these, it's not the powerful cards in question that are important. It's constructing your deck in such a way that you consistantly and successfully make those big spells matter.
UW is strong, but properly addressing one of it's key faults, namely it's weakness in plays/options during the first couple of turns, would take it to a whole other level. The UW color pairing has some of the strongest Stage 2 and 3 plays available to it in the format, so much so that strengthening your Stage 1 plays will only naturally cause the other pieces of the puzzle to fall into place.
All this said we still know very little about what Theros may or may not bring, but going into rotation, regardless of what color pairing you would go with, Control seems to be in a very good place and this blue mage for one is very excited.
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This deck has some nice game against aggro and control, and already has a couple of new friends in Theros. It also has more (and better) two drops than UW, though UWR could show up thanks to Magma Jet. Thoughts?
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
We need an "augur of bolas" type card to fill that gap or a "think twice" kind of card.
Until such a point as Theros delivers something better, I think the best post-rotation options for UW right now are Quicken and Frostburn Weird. The Weird blocks very well and the threat of activation scares off attackers. Casting for UU is a bit awkward, but every option has its drawbacks. There's nothing anywhere close to Augur of Bolas yet.
The gap in UW is why I like UB better. UB has a ton of 2 CMC options - Doom Blade, Warped Physique, Dimir Charm, Essence Scatter, Ultimate Price, and 3 drops in Thassa & Lifebane Zombie (+ Underworld Connections out of the SB for control mirrors). That's not to mention whatever else Theros might give us - hopefully a good scry cantrip for 1 or 2 CMC. For both UW, UB, and other control variants we also have Ratchet Bomb as a 2 drop too.
There's also things like Far/Away which can be 2, 3, or 5 CMC. The only problem is the lack of wrath effect so far, and no early cantrip. If we can get a cantrip / deck manipulator for 1 or 2 CMC I'd think we would be in a good position. Hopefully we'll get a good utility land too.
This deck has some nice game against aggro and control, and already has a couple of new friends in Theros. It also has more (and better) two drops than UW, though UWR could show up thanks to Magma Jet. Thoughts?
Except the mana is VERY VERY bad. You're going to lose more games than you win just from the sheer terribleness of the manabase. There's something to be said for consistency and reliability. What's the point of having all those cards, if you can't cast them when you need to, or conversely playing 1 turn behind your opponent because of CITPT lands? We'll see what Theros gives for Dual Lands, but they've all ready said, they're going to be worse for Tri-color decks than the check lands.
Well cashsieze just threw most of what I said out the window. Black now gives you access to 8 possible duress affects on top of stuff like Slaughter Games, you better have a damn good reason to not splash black and go Esper/Grixis.
"Better mana" is really not much of an excuse at this point.
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Well cashsieze just threw most of what I said out the window. Black now gives you access to 8 possible duress affects on top of stuff like Slaughter Games, you better have a damn good reason to not splash black and go Esper/Grixis.
"Better mana" is really not much of an excuse at this point.
Lolwut? If you just splash B the chances of you having a B source, and Thoughtseize in your hand in the early turns is pretty damn low, low enough to not impact the game all that much. Thoughtseize gets worse the longer the game goes. You can't just 'splash' a color for a good card, and expect it to work out A-OK. That's the lack of critical thinking.
When do you want to play Thoughtseize, or when is it best to? Early.
How will you be able to do this consistently? Play lots of B mana.
Thoughtseize shocks you, so how will you minimize this effect? Play less Shocklands.
Honestly, you going to play 12 shocks + 4 thoughtseize for 16 shock effects? Damn man, you're handing Aggro decks the game before it even starts.
We'll have to wait for duals, but Thoughtseize is nuts on so many levels. It stresses aggro draws and picks apart midrange and control. Duals permitting, I can see Borzhov and Grixis being quite good. We could also see more midrange GB decks as opposed to purely aggro. The Theros party is tomorrow (I believe), so we'll have to see what that brings. Nothing else spoiled today seems that good in contructed, but Thoughtseize is awesome.
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
Turn 4 is a critical turn for control decks as it usualy marks the transition from your stage 1 to stage 2 while also generally determining which stage your opponent will be in.
Verdict can reset the field, Jace can bog the game down and holding up counters/removal keeps the game down to a manageable pace. DD just seems awkward in a list that applies as little pressure as Esper. The reason he works in aggro/midrange is the rate and frequency at which those decks can churn out threats. However in control, barring some strong interaction, you really do want to rather sweep/counter/remove what's in front of you. Not tapping out for a very unreliable finisher.
Esper does'nt NEED more finishers, just more streamline'd ways of getting to stage 3 and making their already good finishers matter.
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I love your interaction on this thread TOG! So what finishers do we have in esper?? Is blood baron considered a finisher?? We already pack 2 atherling. I do like the 1/3 guy who scry's for 2. He's really really close to augur of bolas, minus the card draw. Can we come up with a mock list?? Does the blue God make the esper control list?? Thoughts?
I love your interaction on this thread TOG! So what finishers do we have in esper?? Is blood baron considered a finisher?? We already pack 2 atherling. I do like the 1/3 guy who scry's for 2. He's really really close to augur of bolas, minus the card draw. Can we come up with a mock list?? Does the blue God make the esper control list?? Thoughts?
Doesn't Omenspeaker provide a semi efficient Augur of Bolas replacement. It doesn't dig as deep or add a card, but it does give you a good body against aggro and provide card selection without forcing you into a instant/sorcery heavy build. I honestly think it's a toss up between witch of the control decks takes the spotlight post rotation, but going off of block, the number of cards it gains post rotation, and the small number of cards it loses, that Grixis will be top dog of the control decks, though I would feel better saying this if I knew what the duals were, and Theros being Enchantment heavy might make it worse (not if current print run is anything to go by, every enchantment that's good so far has something else stapled onto it). That's my two cents on it anyway.
Doesn't Omenspeaker provide a semi efficient Augur of Bolas replacement. It doesn't dig as deep or add a card, but it does give you a good body against aggro and provide card selection without forcing you into a instant/sorcery heavy build. I honestly think it's a toss up between witch of the control decks takes the spotlight post rotation, but going off of block, the number of cards it gains post rotation, and the small number of cards it loses, that Grixis will be top dog of the control decks, though I would feel better saying this if I knew what the duals were, and Theros being Enchantment heavy might make it worse (not if current print run is anything to go by, every enchantment that's good so far has something else stapled onto it). That's my two cents on it anyway.
I think Omenspeaker is a 4-off in any blue based control deck. 1/3 stops a considerable amount of ground beaters, and the Scry 2 will ALWAYS be useful.
I can't believe anyone is excited about this card. It is absolutely unplayable. I wouldn't even play her in LIMITED. Easily the worst walker printed since the green elf one. Absolutely terrible.
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Grixis however fairs poorly against GW, BRW and GB based strategies due to the disruptive cards those decks have at their disposal. If Grixis were to remain unppopular after rotation, the above would be the main reasons why, not not having a sweeper in our colors, something that, once again, is ineffective against the very lists BRU is bad against in the first place.
With the mana available, I doubt those Esper lists hardly ever hit a T4 Wrath. I don't see how a control shell without wrath is ever favored against something like RG BTE aggro. Perhaps, if we get more efficient removal and more efficient card draw that we could skip the wrath, but barring those things (something like Ponder + PtE), wraths are necessary for certain MU's.
Also, let's be frank here. We have to discuss M14 along with Block to get any useful predictive analysis. Purposefully ignoring M14 will only give you false perceptions. The fact that you are going to want to play Doom Blade and Lifebane Zombie somewhere in your 75 means you're going to either play less U cards (I doubt it), or less R cards (obviously this will be the case). This means you're not really gaining all that much for what you're sacrificing to run a third color.
Dimir Charm has enough applications against Aggro and Control shells to be maindeckable and takes care of your 'trump' cards like Rakdos Return and Dreadbore. Let's also take into account the fact that Burning Earth will be very ubiquitous for the entire time it's standard legal. Look at how many nonbasics you have to be able to run 3 colors, and laggy 3 colors at that (so many CITPT lands). You're almost conceding RDW MU's, BTE MU's, and possibly RW if that becomes a thing. That's not a spot I want to be in.
This isn't even taking into account we'll probably get something in UB to replace what we're losing (Think Twice / Mutilate). Which means these cards are probably going to be better in conjunction with a better manabase and more consistency than whatever R offers. There's a reason why traditionally control is 2 colors in Standard. We're losing buddy lands, which means the mana will be even worse, and from playing 3 and 4C Control this Standard while the mana was very good there were so many times that I didn't have the right combination to cast the cards I needed to. I can't imagine running 3 colors with a worse mana base + Burning Earth running around.
For all the control players out there, I recommend sticking to UB or UW post-Innistrad.
I completely agree. THIS is actually 1 of the main reasons I always stick to UB or UW or some iteration of control with 2 colors when the mana is the way it is going to be post-rotation. It's easy to say I have X cards more than you and my pool of X cards choices is way better but in all honesty none of that matters if your taking a hit to consistency in your deck.
Staying consistent is one of the best things I love about control. If you just build your deck in such a way that it is consistent and doesn't cave to itself, all you have to do is tweak for your meta slightly and you got yourself a pretty awesome chance at winning if you just focus on decreasing your misplays
P.S. I wish fetchlands were brought back
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
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Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
But at the same time it is a pretty miserable option to have in your main against pretty much everything else. BO is good, very good in fact, but I defenitely like it more out of the board.
I would probably start with a heavier white base as it would give me easier access to options in the way of Precinct Captain, Celestial Flare, and even threatening a Silence in their untap step if that is your thing.
It's very important however to know what it is your deck ultimately want's to "do"
Do you want to deplete your opponents resources and play "bigger" threats of your own like Aetherling and Angel of Serenity or are you more interested in the tempo game? What you play is directly tied into how you ultimately want the game to play out. In my example above I aim to have a potential out to most, if not all turn 1/2 plays depending if I'm on the play or on the draw, slowing the game down with either creatures/walls or counters/charms till I get to at least 4 mana.
This is satge 1
In stage 2 I want to either pressure my opponent into staying in his stage 1 for as long as possible, be that by resetting the field with Supreme Verdict, counterering his key cards or playing hard to deal with threats that also provide me some means of advantage benificial to my overall plan, in this case Jace Architect of Thought or even the new god Thassa, if the board allows it. Through the combination of counters, removal, creatures/walkers I would aim to pull far enough ahead that I can either start playing my late game threats, win through the incremental advantages that my other plays have provided me, or start playing "big" spells (aka Sphinx/Oppertunity) that just pulls me so far ahead that it makes it very difficult for opponents to recover from the resulting CA that these spells can generate.
That would be stage 3
It is very easy to simply add spells like Sphinx Revelation, Opportunity, Supreme Verdict, just to name a few, to your deck and call it a day. Even a "tweaked" list with optimal counters, removal and threats, is nothing more than a pile of cards if you do not understand both how you want to win and ultimately what steps you need to take to get there.
This may seem like a very long and roundabout way of saying or going about it, but very often, and especially when you are dealing with powerful cards such as these, it's not the powerful cards in question that are important. It's constructing your deck in such a way that you consistantly and successfully make those big spells matter.
UW is strong, but properly addressing one of it's key faults, namely it's weakness in plays/options during the first couple of turns, would take it to a whole other level. The UW color pairing has some of the strongest Stage 2 and 3 plays available to it in the format, so much so that strengthening your Stage 1 plays will only naturally cause the other pieces of the puzzle to fall into place.
All this said we still know very little about what Theros may or may not bring, but going into rotation, regardless of what color pairing you would go with, Control seems to be in a very good place and this blue mage for one is very excited.
26 Land
2 AEtherling
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Ral Zarek
2 Turn // Burn
3 Far // Away
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Opportunity
2 Dreadbore
1 Doom Blade
3 Syncopate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Counterflux
1 Izzet Charm
This deck has some nice game against aggro and control, and already has a couple of new friends in Theros. It also has more (and better) two drops than UW, though UWR could show up thanks to Magma Jet. Thoughts?
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
Until such a point as Theros delivers something better, I think the best post-rotation options for UW right now are Quicken and Frostburn Weird. The Weird blocks very well and the threat of activation scares off attackers. Casting for UU is a bit awkward, but every option has its drawbacks. There's nothing anywhere close to Augur of Bolas yet.
There's also things like Far/Away which can be 2, 3, or 5 CMC. The only problem is the lack of wrath effect so far, and no early cantrip. If we can get a cantrip / deck manipulator for 1 or 2 CMC I'd think we would be in a good position. Hopefully we'll get a good utility land too.
Except the mana is VERY VERY bad. You're going to lose more games than you win just from the sheer terribleness of the manabase. There's something to be said for consistency and reliability. What's the point of having all those cards, if you can't cast them when you need to, or conversely playing 1 turn behind your opponent because of CITPT lands? We'll see what Theros gives for Dual Lands, but they've all ready said, they're going to be worse for Tri-color decks than the check lands.
"Better mana" is really not much of an excuse at this point.
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
Thoughtseize
Duress
Doom Blade
Mind Rot
Deathrite Shaman
Liliana of the Dark Realms
Nightmare
WGBLife Gain
WGUBR Slivers
EDH:
W Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
WU Bruna, Light of Alabaster
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking
WGU Jenara, Asura of War Work in Progress
Lolwut? If you just splash B the chances of you having a B source, and Thoughtseize in your hand in the early turns is pretty damn low, low enough to not impact the game all that much. Thoughtseize gets worse the longer the game goes. You can't just 'splash' a color for a good card, and expect it to work out A-OK. That's the lack of critical thinking.
When do you want to play Thoughtseize, or when is it best to? Early.
How will you be able to do this consistently? Play lots of B mana.
Thoughtseize shocks you, so how will you minimize this effect? Play less Shocklands.
Honestly, you going to play 12 shocks + 4 thoughtseize for 16 shock effects? Damn man, you're handing Aggro decks the game before it even starts.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
Turn 4 is a critical turn for control decks as it usualy marks the transition from your stage 1 to stage 2 while also generally determining which stage your opponent will be in.
Verdict can reset the field, Jace can bog the game down and holding up counters/removal keeps the game down to a manageable pace. DD just seems awkward in a list that applies as little pressure as Esper. The reason he works in aggro/midrange is the rate and frequency at which those decks can churn out threats. However in control, barring some strong interaction, you really do want to rather sweep/counter/remove what's in front of you. Not tapping out for a very unreliable finisher.
Esper does'nt NEED more finishers, just more streamline'd ways of getting to stage 3 and making their already good finishers matter.
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
Right now for finishers im using
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2Jace, Memory Adept
1-2Aetherling
and
2 Jace, Architect of Thought as a half finisher with his ultimate but I wouldnt anticipate you getting it often.
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
I think Omenspeaker is a 4-off in any blue based control deck. 1/3 stops a considerable amount of ground beaters, and the Scry 2 will ALWAYS be useful.
This would be my starting base for UW control.
2x Aetherling
3x Detention Sphere
4x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Elspeth, Sun's Chosen
3x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Curse of Swine