I am actually unsure about it. Turn 1 shock land take 2 then thoughtsize take another 2? Not sure if I want to spend 25% of my starting life total. On top of that black doesn't have much in the way of gaining life so the life loss is going to hurt. I swear of you point out everything that is lifelink or gains life I'm going to scream. I am talking competitive cards here. Not jank cards used to counter some one's point for the sake of it.
Its power has proven itself in the past but that wasn't in a meta of shock lands. We had the "reveal tribe" lands that could come into play untapped. The extra 2 life from a shock land doesn't make this look so good in my eyes.
Taking a Sphinx Rev turn 1 isn't even a good play. At minimum you want to cast Rev on 5 mana. If it is late game they will just Rev in response so sure you get to pick a card but they still out draw you on threats.
B/W aggro can run it because they have no 1 drop. Losing the 2 life doesn't seem so bad there. Tithe Drinker looks to be very playable. Blood Baron is on everyone's radar (if not where have you been?).
Esper could run it because they have Sphinx Rev to regain the life.
U/B or U/B/x control.....no go. Nothing to gain the life back with and needing to run 8-12 shocks. Just isn't going to happen.
This is either a 4 of in decks or a none. I don't see much middle ground here for this card. Either you can handle the life loss or not. Only deciding factor in pliability for your deck imo.
With the format looking like it's slowing down, I don't think it'll be correct to shock yourself in order to fire off a T1 thoughtseize. A T2 or T3 thoughtseize does pretty much just as well.
I have a question:
Why is Thoughtsieze so good?
I understand it gets rid of a creature card before it can be played. Duress is similar but it doesn't cost life but can't hit creatures.
Wouldn't this only make sense against Hexproof or something?
Some others may have said it already, but I want to point out that while thoughtseize is a VERY good card, it is NOT always the best choice for every deck, every meta, or every format.
Thoughtseize is amazing in legacy because there's a lot of combo and you MUST hit the right card. The 2 life doesn't matter. Even against non-combo, the card quality in the format is so high that hitting the right card is usually well worth the 2 life in most decks. That said, when I get my playset I'll be leaving it OUT of my legacy pox deck... life is too precious in that deck, and inquisition of kozilek is almost always better. If things go right, they shouldn't be hitting 4 lands anyway, and if they do I should be able to kill whatever they cast with them.
Modern is similar... there's WAY more combo than people think (pod and tron for example, are combo decks that can also win other ways). Life doesn't really matter against them, because if you're taking damage you've probably lost. It's also good in modern because it's a format where a LOT of the most back-breaking cards have a CMC over 3, and they are likely to be creatures, making both duress and IOK non-optimal.
Standard has almost no combo, making it not quite as good, and some seriously fast aggro, also making it not quite as good. Try running thoughtseize and shocklands vs. gruul aggro and you're doing their job for them. Running it in an aggro list might not be smart either... you could have played a 1-drop that could be attacking instead. The quality of the card is going to depend on what deck you're playing and what your meta looks like. It probably belongs in the 75 of almost any black deck, but not necessarily maindeck, and not necessarily as a 4-of.
i agree with ashley 100%. With standard being the way it is, this card will be great in any black decks 75 but depending on the deck... definitely not a 4 of.
I LOVE this reprint though... I mean gosh im so freakin excited for the new standard... with Blitz essentially getting the coffin and jund taking a huge hit after rotation, this card will certainly find many homes
Well first of all, the blazing fast red decks we have now, lose a lot of things that make it as fast as it is. TS on a Rampager lurking in their hand is a win, hitting a haste creature, pretty much regardless of the turn, is also a win.
If you are doing to take 2 damage to the creature before you can dreadbore it anyways, you might as well be happy just playing TS and taking it from their hand all the same. There are also a number of tools for black decks to mitigate damage anyways, which inherently retains the value of Thoughtseize regardless of the turn you play it on.
In Modern, you just get bolted out of the game if you Thoughtseize off a shockland. Standard does not quite function the same way when it comes to how decks efficiently deal damage.
Its nice. Makes BWR more of a contender and makes Grixis stronger while keeping Esper in check. Also brings down the price on it, wasnt it like 50 bucks for a RARE?
Its nice. Makes BWR more of a contender and makes Grixis stronger while keeping Esper in check. Also brings down the price on it, wasnt it like 50 bucks for a RARE?
How does it keep Esper in check? Last I read, Esper runs B too lol.
I think this will be a 4 of in every Control deck running 14-15+ B sources, with 8 and under shocklands. It also depends on your meta. If your meta is all aggro, put it in the SB. Otherwise, this card is fantastic. Definitely excited to get to play with it. I missed out since I started Shards-Rise standard.
This, by the way, means a lot of Control decks will have to run more Aetherlings in their 75 for the threat of it being snatched / countered.
PS: This is also another way to deal with BBoV. He can be such a PITA sometimes.
This card is nuts. It makes BTE Aggro's draws more clumsy. It pressures midrange/control decks, and it gives control a solid way to deal with a certain bear.
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
Golgari is going to love this, awesome synergy between Thoughtseize and Ooze/DD. Also allows it to deal with troublesome permanents game 1 like Jace, D-Sphere, Assemble the Legion, and Platemail,
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Good point. This hits BTE decks a fair bit. But then again taking 4 to do it...is that really great? Vs other aggro decks surely thoughtseize isnt good? Not bad but not good
This is a reason to run GB over Junk or Jund. But whether GB is a deck depends a lot on what we get in Theros.
How does it keep Esper in check? Last I read, Esper runs B too lol.
I think this will be a 4 of in every Control deck running 14-15+ B sources, with 8 and under shocklands. It also depends on your meta. If your meta is all aggro, put it in the SB. Otherwise, this card is fantastic. Definitely excited to get to play with it. I missed out since I started Shards-Rise standard.
This, by the way, means a lot of Control decks will have to run more Aetherlings in their 75 for the threat of it being snatched / countered.
PS: This is also another way to deal with BBoV. He can be such a PITA sometimes.
It keeps Esper in check because it means other non Blue decks can now interact against Espers spells. In the current block theres nothing except Sin Collector, but that doesnt touch creatures, Planeswalkers or Detention spheres. Even with m14 and duress you still couldnt stop their Aetherlings, Blood Baron or Obzedat.
This is good since it keeps the format now more in check. Kinda like how ooze took Reanimators dominance down a notch. Esper was going to be pretty annoying to deal with but its nice to see in Theros the answers to it.
It keeps Esper in check because it means other non Blue decks can now interact against Espers spells. In the current block theres nothing except Sin Collector, but that doesnt touch creatures, Planeswalkers or Detention spheres. Even with m14 and duress you still couldnt stop their Aetherlings, Blood Baron or Obzedat.
This is good since it keeps the format now more in check. Kinda like how ooze took Reanimators dominance down a notch. Esper was going to be pretty annoying to deal with but its nice to see in Theros the answers to it.
Unless of course they Thoughtseize your Thoughtseize. Anyways, M14 brought Lifebane Zombie which deals with BBoV and Obzedat well enough. Similarly, if you run blue you have counterspells at your disposal and if you run white or green you have enchantment destruction effects and even RG has a lovely little Revelry that craps on Dsphere (as does Abrupt Decay).
Aetherling is a problem, but there is pithing needle and again, counterspells available.
Besides, there is a Manabarbs running around that absolutely punishes Tri-color decks esp. in a format w/o buddy lands. I don't think Tri-color control deck post-rotation is the way to go - not only for sheer amount of shocking to yourself, but also because all the CITPT lands are so bad.
I am actually unsure about it. Turn 1 shock land take 2 then thoughtsize take another 2? Not sure if I want to spend 25% of my starting life total. On top of that black doesn't have much in the way of gaining life so the life loss is going to hurt. I swear of you point out everything that is lifelink or gains life I'm going to scream. I am talking competitive cards here. Not jank cards used to counter some one's point for the sake of it.
Its power has proven itself in the past but that wasn't in a meta of shock lands. We had the "reveal tribe" lands that could come into play untapped. The extra 2 life from a shock land doesn't make this look so good in my eyes.
Taking a Sphinx Rev turn 1 isn't even a good play. At minimum you want to cast Rev on 5 mana. If it is late game they will just Rev in response so sure you get to pick a card but they still out draw you on threats.
B/W aggro can run it because they have no 1 drop. Losing the 2 life doesn't seem so bad there. Tithe Drinker looks to be very playable. Blood Baron is on everyone's radar (if not where have you been?).
Esper could run it because they have Sphinx Rev to regain the life.
U/B or U/B/x control.....no go. Nothing to gain the life back with and needing to run 8-12 shocks. Just isn't going to happen.
This is either a 4 of in decks or a none. I don't see much middle ground here for this card. Either you can handle the life loss or not. Only deciding factor in pliability for your deck imo.
Thoughtseize is a big incentive to build 2 color heavy black deck over 3 color, so you can turn 1 seize from the swamp. Any kind of Bx.
Add that to existance of burning earth and I think we'll see 2 colors as the premier choice.
Also we're around 1-2 good devotion cards away from monoblack being a thing.
This is actually a fair card in standards slower setting. I think this fits best in decks with some amount of life gain like BG with things like deathrite and scavenging ooze to eat the discards. BW has several decent lifelinkers plus extort as well. I don't think BU wants to be taking the 2 multiple times in a game, maybe just board in vs control. BR may have a fast enough deck and is a combination that lacks enchantment removal that it might need this. crypt incursion is the best black lifegain atm so I think that will be a needed card (unless your in green) in the side for several match ups and even synergizes with thoughtsieze if your discarding a creature.
Maybe the black god or another sweet new mythic gains life like a champ, or mono black devotion is the place to be, and this will just be an easy 4 of so black can hit artifacts and enchants this block.
Either that or simply not seize on turn 1, especially since not using it on t1 is the correct play vast majority of time.
This.
Turn 1 means that your other opening 6 is strong, and it is also a gamble that your opponents is weaker.
Legacy has far more power plays in the beginning stages, which means turn 1 seize is a decent turn 1 play. Standard is slower, those premium cards you want to be hitting, cost more and are slower. Taking a big power card that cost 4 or 5 on turn 1 is a waste of an incredibly strong card.
Turn 1 means that your other opening 6 is strong, and it is also a gamble that your opponents is weaker.
Legacy has far more power plays in the beginning stages, which means turn 1 seize is a decent turn 1 play. Standard is slower, those premium cards you want to be hitting, cost more and are slower. Taking a big power card that cost 4 or 5 on turn 1 is a waste of an incredibly strong card.
I'm turn 1 Thoughtseizing against every GW deck, and control deck. I have better plays for later in the turns - aka removal that doesn't shock me, and things like Lifebane Zombie, Jace, etc.
I'm turn 1 Thoughtseizing against every GW deck, and control deck. I have better plays for later in the turns - aka removal that doesn't shock me, and things like Lifebane Zombie, Jace, etc.
While I did call it a waste, I would assume you were capable of understanding that pinpoint removal and the timing of their use are certainly subject to priority.
So even though I said it was a weak play, I did not say it was a bad play.
The idea is to maximize it's use by timing it well to increase the odds of hitting premium cards at desirable intervals.
An example would be (and while this is not accurate to the standard we will see, it showcases good timing), turn 1 Thoughtseize snagging a Hellrider against R/X Aggro, is not entirely optimal. This is a decent example of weak timing. Note that there are other factors determining what you want to pick and what you need to pick, so consider this loose.
I do not always buy into stock mana theory either, which means if I do not Seize turn 1, I am okay never getting that mana back in this case as I would rather take a premium card later than too soon, or just taking a decent target because it is seemingly the best target in their hand.
I'm turn 1 Thoughtseizing against every GW deck, and control deck. I have better plays for later in the turns - aka removal that doesn't shock me, and things like Lifebane Zombie, Jace, etc.
I think this is still a case of timing. I am assuming you want to Thoughtseize to preemptively stop Voice, so on the draw I think you Seize turn 1. On the play, it would probably be better to Seize turn 2. This is all assuming you know what you are playing against. Against control, I wouldn't Seize until turn 2-3 on the draw, turn 4 on the play.
I think this is still a case of timing. I am assuming you want to Thoughtseize to preemptively stop Voice, so on the draw I think you Seize turn 1. On the play, it would probably be better to Seize turn 2. This is all assuming you know what you are playing against. Against control, I wouldn't Seize until turn 2-3 on the draw, turn 4 on the play.
Yes, voice. I'd rather T1, so T2 I can play a cantrip / removal spell for their mana-dork. As far as Control goes, I'd rather not have my 'Seize countered. My UB deck has the most trouble against PW's and it is my priority target in the Control MU (+ maybe Thassa if that sees a lot of play).
Not only do you want to Seize early to maximize your plays, but also to get the most information of their hand. Against, non-GW decks, I'll probably end up siding them out, or leaving a few in to use later in the game against Garruk.
Would you rather:
T1 Land Go
T2 Land Seize Go
T3 Land Lifebane Zombie / Thassa Go
or
T1 Land Seize Go
T2 Land Cantrip / Removal Go
T3 Land Lifebane Zombie / Thassa Go
I don't see how anyone can argue that the benefit of playing Seize later outweighs the benefits you get of T2 Cantrip / Scry / Removal.
I think this is still a case of timing. I am assuming you want to Thoughtseize to preemptively stop Voice, so on the draw I think you Seize turn 1. On the play, it would probably be better to Seize turn 2. This is all assuming you know what you are playing against. Against control, I wouldn't Seize until turn 2-3 on the draw, turn 4 on the play.
I agree that it's probably best to wait until the turn before they could play something you would want to Thoughtsieze. But this kind of assumes also that it fits into the rest of your game-plan. If I have a turn 2 play (removal, another creature or whatever) and a turn 3/4 play... I'm probably just going to TS turn 1. You are only gaining small percentage points of value by waiting the extra turn and it isn't worth delaying the way the rest of how your deck plays.
Coming up with a straight GB list is tough, but that's where I'd look if mana isn't very good.
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
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Its power has proven itself in the past but that wasn't in a meta of shock lands. We had the "reveal tribe" lands that could come into play untapped. The extra 2 life from a shock land doesn't make this look so good in my eyes.
Taking a Sphinx Rev turn 1 isn't even a good play. At minimum you want to cast Rev on 5 mana. If it is late game they will just Rev in response so sure you get to pick a card but they still out draw you on threats.
B/W aggro can run it because they have no 1 drop. Losing the 2 life doesn't seem so bad there. Tithe Drinker looks to be very playable. Blood Baron is on everyone's radar (if not where have you been?).
Esper could run it because they have Sphinx Rev to regain the life.
U/B or U/B/x control.....no go. Nothing to gain the life back with and needing to run 8-12 shocks. Just isn't going to happen.
This is either a 4 of in decks or a none. I don't see much middle ground here for this card. Either you can handle the life loss or not. Only deciding factor in pliability for your deck imo.
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Some others may have said it already, but I want to point out that while thoughtseize is a VERY good card, it is NOT always the best choice for every deck, every meta, or every format.
Thoughtseize is amazing in legacy because there's a lot of combo and you MUST hit the right card. The 2 life doesn't matter. Even against non-combo, the card quality in the format is so high that hitting the right card is usually well worth the 2 life in most decks. That said, when I get my playset I'll be leaving it OUT of my legacy pox deck... life is too precious in that deck, and inquisition of kozilek is almost always better. If things go right, they shouldn't be hitting 4 lands anyway, and if they do I should be able to kill whatever they cast with them.
Modern is similar... there's WAY more combo than people think (pod and tron for example, are combo decks that can also win other ways). Life doesn't really matter against them, because if you're taking damage you've probably lost. It's also good in modern because it's a format where a LOT of the most back-breaking cards have a CMC over 3, and they are likely to be creatures, making both duress and IOK non-optimal.
Standard has almost no combo, making it not quite as good, and some seriously fast aggro, also making it not quite as good. Try running thoughtseize and shocklands vs. gruul aggro and you're doing their job for them. Running it in an aggro list might not be smart either... you could have played a 1-drop that could be attacking instead. The quality of the card is going to depend on what deck you're playing and what your meta looks like. It probably belongs in the 75 of almost any black deck, but not necessarily maindeck, and not necessarily as a 4-of.
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Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I LOVE this reprint though... I mean gosh im so freakin excited for the new standard... with Blitz essentially getting the coffin and jund taking a huge hit after rotation, this card will certainly find many homes
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If you are doing to take 2 damage to the creature before you can dreadbore it anyways, you might as well be happy just playing TS and taking it from their hand all the same. There are also a number of tools for black decks to mitigate damage anyways, which inherently retains the value of Thoughtseize regardless of the turn you play it on.
In Modern, you just get bolted out of the game if you Thoughtseize off a shockland. Standard does not quite function the same way when it comes to how decks efficiently deal damage.
How does it keep Esper in check? Last I read, Esper runs B too lol.
I think this will be a 4 of in every Control deck running 14-15+ B sources, with 8 and under shocklands. It also depends on your meta. If your meta is all aggro, put it in the SB. Otherwise, this card is fantastic. Definitely excited to get to play with it. I missed out since I started Shards-Rise standard.
This, by the way, means a lot of Control decks will have to run more Aetherlings in their 75 for the threat of it being snatched / countered.
PS: This is also another way to deal with BBoV. He can be such a PITA sometimes.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
This is a reason to run GB over Junk or Jund. But whether GB is a deck depends a lot on what we get in Theros.
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
It keeps Esper in check because it means other non Blue decks can now interact against Espers spells. In the current block theres nothing except Sin Collector, but that doesnt touch creatures, Planeswalkers or Detention spheres. Even with m14 and duress you still couldnt stop their Aetherlings, Blood Baron or Obzedat.
This is good since it keeps the format now more in check. Kinda like how ooze took Reanimators dominance down a notch. Esper was going to be pretty annoying to deal with but its nice to see in Theros the answers to it.
Planning on playing some mix of these
ThoughtSeize
Mizzium Mortars
Rakdo's Return
Dreadbore
Doom Blade
Devour Flesh
Ratchet Bomb
Chandra
Desecration Demon
Sire of Insanity (maybe)
Rakdos Keyrune
Lifebane Zombie
MutaVault
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
Unless of course they Thoughtseize your Thoughtseize. Anyways, M14 brought Lifebane Zombie which deals with BBoV and Obzedat well enough. Similarly, if you run blue you have counterspells at your disposal and if you run white or green you have enchantment destruction effects and even RG has a lovely little Revelry that craps on Dsphere (as does Abrupt Decay).
Aetherling is a problem, but there is pithing needle and again, counterspells available.
Besides, there is a Manabarbs running around that absolutely punishes Tri-color decks esp. in a format w/o buddy lands. I don't think Tri-color control deck post-rotation is the way to go - not only for sheer amount of shocking to yourself, but also because all the CITPT lands are so bad.
PS: I also heard Dreadbore can kill PWs...
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Thoughtseize is a big incentive to build 2 color heavy black deck over 3 color, so you can turn 1 seize from the swamp. Any kind of Bx.
Add that to existance of burning earth and I think we'll see 2 colors as the premier choice.
Also we're around 1-2 good devotion cards away from monoblack being a thing.
Maybe the black god or another sweet new mythic gains life like a champ, or mono black devotion is the place to be, and this will just be an easy 4 of so black can hit artifacts and enchants this block.
This.
Turn 1 means that your other opening 6 is strong, and it is also a gamble that your opponents is weaker.
Legacy has far more power plays in the beginning stages, which means turn 1 seize is a decent turn 1 play. Standard is slower, those premium cards you want to be hitting, cost more and are slower. Taking a big power card that cost 4 or 5 on turn 1 is a waste of an incredibly strong card.
I'm turn 1 Thoughtseizing against every GW deck, and control deck. I have better plays for later in the turns - aka removal that doesn't shock me, and things like Lifebane Zombie, Jace, etc.
While I did call it a waste, I would assume you were capable of understanding that pinpoint removal and the timing of their use are certainly subject to priority.
So even though I said it was a weak play, I did not say it was a bad play.
The idea is to maximize it's use by timing it well to increase the odds of hitting premium cards at desirable intervals.
An example would be (and while this is not accurate to the standard we will see, it showcases good timing), turn 1 Thoughtseize snagging a Hellrider against R/X Aggro, is not entirely optimal. This is a decent example of weak timing. Note that there are other factors determining what you want to pick and what you need to pick, so consider this loose.
I do not always buy into stock mana theory either, which means if I do not Seize turn 1, I am okay never getting that mana back in this case as I would rather take a premium card later than too soon, or just taking a decent target because it is seemingly the best target in their hand.
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I think this is still a case of timing. I am assuming you want to Thoughtseize to preemptively stop Voice, so on the draw I think you Seize turn 1. On the play, it would probably be better to Seize turn 2. This is all assuming you know what you are playing against. Against control, I wouldn't Seize until turn 2-3 on the draw, turn 4 on the play.
Yes, voice. I'd rather T1, so T2 I can play a cantrip / removal spell for their mana-dork. As far as Control goes, I'd rather not have my 'Seize countered. My UB deck has the most trouble against PW's and it is my priority target in the Control MU (+ maybe Thassa if that sees a lot of play).
Not only do you want to Seize early to maximize your plays, but also to get the most information of their hand. Against, non-GW decks, I'll probably end up siding them out, or leaving a few in to use later in the game against Garruk.
Would you rather:
T1 Land Go
T2 Land Seize Go
T3 Land Lifebane Zombie / Thassa Go
or
T1 Land Seize Go
T2 Land Cantrip / Removal Go
T3 Land Lifebane Zombie / Thassa Go
I don't see how anyone can argue that the benefit of playing Seize later outweighs the benefits you get of T2 Cantrip / Scry / Removal.
I agree that it's probably best to wait until the turn before they could play something you would want to Thoughtsieze. But this kind of assumes also that it fits into the rest of your game-plan. If I have a turn 2 play (removal, another creature or whatever) and a turn 3/4 play... I'm probably just going to TS turn 1. You are only gaining small percentage points of value by waiting the extra turn and it isn't worth delaying the way the rest of how your deck plays.
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Desecration Demon
2 Aurelia, the War Leader
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Dreadbore
4 Doom Blade
4 Magma Jet
4 Thoughtseize
1 Merciless Eviction
2 Rakdos Keyrune
3 Mizzum Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Gift of Orzhov
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Archangel of Thune
2 Polukranos, the World Eater
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgance
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Putrefy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Advent of the Wurm
Coming up with a straight GB list is tough, but that's where I'd look if mana isn't very good.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender