What I like with black is that is more resilent that WR or WU, so your creatures live to kill another turn, and the fact that you can sweep boards with Agent of the Fates.
Why Black?
1.- Agent of the Fates: Still underrated, but this creature can easily clean up the board while dealing serious damage with the auras attached. It also has deathtouch, so this and Ethereal Armor make a really awesome attacker or blocker everyone will fear up. And its ability is just Diabolic Edict. Even if their creatures have protection, hexproof or indestructible, agent doesn't care, he just kills and you can call it a day. Attaching two auras to it on a single turn is more usual than you may expect. Definitely the core card of the build.
2.- Thoughtseize: Something that no other heroic deck out there can presume to use. This card is always nice, you don't care about using it against aggro, since you will regain the life eventually anyway. Mess up plays, make harder your opponent's life by removing their better removals and answers.
3.- Orzhov Charm: Luckily, this one will save our voltron creature from a board wipe, or things where Gods Willing or Boon of Erebos fail. It can also revive our Favored Hoplite if we lack some creatures. Besides, I don't need to tell how Agent of the Fates benefits from this. Did I mention it kill creatures too? Not like you care losing some life with all that lifelink.
4.- Sin Collector: Needed against control, this card is great, and it is something likeThoughtseize with legs, so you could enchant it too if you don't have any better choice, which is better than having none.
5.- Boon of Erebos: Prevents our voltron to be killed, works as a combat trick, and even as a finisher. Need to say more?
6.- Gift of Orzhova: We know a simple white or WR WU can use it, but let's face it, it is more consistent on orzhov, or monowhite. It gives the evasion our creature asks for.
Orzhov colors compensates the lack of hexproof with tricky spells in order to prevent our creature to get killed. 12 cards to protect our creature is WAY a lot, more than many other decks can offer, and these cards aren't dead draws either if you don't need to use them to protect your creature, they have other utilities as well.
I'm playing what's basically an Agents of Fates deck, and I can tell you that you want 4 Agents, never SBing them off. Orzhov charm is like one of my favorite charms that's never irrelevant, so 4 again. Overall synergy means you would want 4 Hopeful Eidolons as well.
16 enchantments might be a bit much, though. Keep Etherial Armor, that one has always been an all-star. Add land and you're set.
SB you want Blind Obediance, especially in this meta.
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:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I'm playing what's basically an Agents of Fates deck, and I can tell you that you want 4 Agents, never SBing them off. Orzhov charm is like one of my favorite charms that's never irrelevant, so 4 again. Overall synergy means you would want 4 Hopeful Eidolons as well.
16 enchantments might be a bit much, though. Keep Etherial Armor, that one has always been an all-star. Add land and you're set.
SB you want Blind Obediance, especially in this meta.
Glad to hear some feedback from someone who has played Agent too
I feel the same with your observations, and luckily are cards I already have, so no need to spend more, lol, updated list.
I don't think I need more than 20 lands, everything is really cheap (but eidolon's bestow, which is not expensive either), my testings have come fine with them. I think this deck just asks 4 of everything to have consistency.
Had the idea, but I feel like the bestow in Green and Black is much better value to mana, so I working on a G/B deck I call Valuorz. Thinking about taking it to Junk but with the mana the way it is I don't think its viable.
My question for you is what is the optimum # of spells to creatures in your opinion. Thanks.
I can tell that, it must be as equal as possible between creatures and heroic enablers. Obviously, the more heroic creatures you use, the better, so 4-8 heroic creatures won't work, it needs at least 12 so it is worth the build.
Hey Aoi, it's really cool to see someone trying to develop this deck. I saw (what I figured is) your updated version in the W/x thread and I have to say it looks pretty sweet.
I've been running something very much like this in the past weeks, making a bunch of changes that haven't always been for the best.
a) Have you tested Heliod vs Underworld Connections? Haven't really had time to test UC, but Heliod has proven not too shabby for me in those games that stretch.
b) How's Nighthowler working for you? Don't you find it a "win more" card?
c) Have you tried splashing other colors? I haven't really tried because it demands more time than I can currently put in, but the prospect of having access to Lotleth Troll, Golgari Charm/Selesnya Charm and possibly Warriors' Lesson looks tempting when splashing G.
I have also been testing around with a WB deck, mostly around Agent of the Fates but one of the biggest obstacles that I face are those pesky Plainswalkers. One question I have for you is other than Ratchet Bomb [which I know is more used for the aggro matchup] you really dont have any way of dealing with them, unless I am overlooking something glaringly obvious.
In my experiences, this is where High Priest of Penance can really become useful. Sure its a 1/1 body for 2cmc but the ability to destroy ANY non land permanent has come in handy more times than not. It can take out pesky plainswalkers, it can take out pesky big bodies, or it can take out those pesky enchantments that are just making things difficult. Only thing Ive found that these dont help me deal with are the Gods.
Maybe it isn't MB material, but I at least love having at least a few of these roaming around the SB.
You deal with the gods by dealing with their creatures/devotion granting permanents. Then the gods are nothing more than overcosted enchantments.
Killing there planeswalkers is easy, suit up some gift of ozhova, then smack into them with a creature large enough to take it out. PWs are a non issue with these heroic decks. Especially if your playing Orzhov, you have access to hero's downfall.
The only planeswalker that can't be killed by a huge flying/trampling creature is elspeth because of her -3. If you're having trouble with that, simply either run hero's downfall, kill them before they can cast her, or play around her.
If you're splashing green, you need unflinching courage. It's one of the best auras in standard, and s better in multiples than gift.
Hey Aoi, it's really cool to see someone trying to develop this deck. I saw (what I figured is) your updated version in the W/x thread and I have to say it looks pretty sweet.
I've been running something very much like this in the past weeks, making a bunch of changes that haven't always been for the best.
Thank you so much :), indeed, the version in the primer is the most updated, and the one with best results up by now. I will change it in a little while, so this thread is updated too, thanks to remind it to me
I see the deck you have is pretty nice, almost the same as mine, lol. I'd like to see the sideboard, there is where problems come depending local metagame.
a) Have you tested Heliod vs Underworld Connections? Haven't really had time to test UC, but Heliod has proven not too shabby for me in those games that stretch.
b) How's Nighthowler working for you? Don't you find it a "win more" card?
c) Have you tried splashing other colors? I haven't really tried because it demands more time than I can currently put in, but the prospect of having access to Lotleth Troll, Golgari Charm/Selesnya Charm and possibly Warriors' Lesson looks tempting when splashing G.
a) I haven't tested Heliod yet, but UC is pretty awesome against midrange and control, and since my local meta sees a lot of those decks (and you easily win against aggro anyway), that's why I got one in mainboard. Heliod would be awesome against control (only if they don't have Detention Sphere, I guess is worth the try, and vigilance X/X heroic creatures doesn't sound half bad either.
b) It is working nice indeed, allows me to win faster with stronger swings, something you desire on this deck, because prolonging won't be any good. But that Heliod seems promising, after all, I SB Nighthowler against control
c)Only card that would interest me enough to splash another color is Unflinching Courage, but right now the deck seems to have everything it needs so, although it would be pretty viable to make a WBG heroic, I will personally stick up with WB for consistency, but a build using Gladecover Scout and Witchstalker would be really promising too.
And about the PW issue... yes, Hero's Downfall fits really nice on the deck. PW barely are a menace, but if they manage to be, better to be prepared, because this is the real answer against them
I see the deck you have is pretty nice, almost the same as mine, lol. I'd like to see the sideboard, there is where problems come depending local metagame.
Most if it is for the control match up as you can see. I side Vizkopa at times for the hilarity of semi-double/triple strike with its second ability.
Most of my desire to go into other colors is fixing that dreaded turn 2 when you have no Hoplite/Thoughtseize in your opening hand. I think someone already said this in the other thread, but one downfall of BW Heroes is that you want to end up building monoThreeDrop.dec... all the good stuff is cmc 3 (Lifebane, Hero's Downfall, Underworld Connections, Fabled Hero, Agent, Fiendslayer, etc).
I have found that this deck is very effective at playing Aggro with the a touch of Control. Keeping the mana curve low I would prefer to stay away from double white mana....Fabled Hero and Phalanx Leader would really hurt the flow of the deck. (tested it and made it clunky)
Decks look good. I do suggest dropping the theme in that last list and running better cards. Thrill kill is just not good enough for a tourney level deck. Much better can be done. Replace those with a boon, gift, and agent.
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Updated deck as in November 07 2013
8 Plains
5 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
Creatures(20)
4 Favored Hoplite
3 Hopeful Eidolon
3 Nighthowler
3 Fabled Hero
4 Agent of the Fates
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Gift of Orzhova
1 Underworld Connections
Spells(10)
4 Gods Willing
4 Orzhov Charm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Boon of Erebos
4 Sin Collector
1 Underworld Connections
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Thoughtseize
The core seems the same as any heroic deck: Favored Hoplite, Gods Willing and Fabled Hero are there. What does this deck has that no other has? BLACK.
Why Black?
1.- Agent of the Fates: Still underrated, but this creature can easily clean up the board while dealing serious damage with the auras attached. It also has deathtouch, so this and Ethereal Armor make a really awesome attacker or blocker everyone will fear up. And its ability is just Diabolic Edict. Even if their creatures have protection, hexproof or indestructible, agent doesn't care, he just kills and you can call it a day. Attaching two auras to it on a single turn is more usual than you may expect. Definitely the core card of the build.
2.- Thoughtseize: Something that no other heroic deck out there can presume to use. This card is always nice, you don't care about using it against aggro, since you will regain the life eventually anyway. Mess up plays, make harder your opponent's life by removing their better removals and answers.
3.- Orzhov Charm: Luckily, this one will save our voltron creature from a board wipe, or things where Gods Willing or Boon of Erebos fail. It can also revive our Favored Hoplite if we lack some creatures. Besides, I don't need to tell how Agent of the Fates benefits from this. Did I mention it kill creatures too? Not like you care losing some life with all that lifelink.
4.- Sin Collector: Needed against control, this card is great, and it is something likeThoughtseize with legs, so you could enchant it too if you don't have any better choice, which is better than having none.
5.- Boon of Erebos: Prevents our voltron to be killed, works as a combat trick, and even as a finisher. Need to say more?
6.- Gift of Orzhova: We know a simple white or WR WU can use it, but let's face it, it is more consistent on orzhov, or monowhite. It gives the evasion our creature asks for.
Orzhov colors compensates the lack of hexproof with tricky spells in order to prevent our creature to get killed. 12 cards to protect our creature is WAY a lot, more than many other decks can offer, and these cards aren't dead draws either if you don't need to use them to protect your creature, they have other utilities as well.
Weird Idea of the Month (Standard)
RGWNaya Token CommandoWGR
Rate/discuss my decks :D(almost all formats)
Standard
Orzhov Voltron Superheroes
Modern
Infectors
Legacy
UGBack to Square OneGU
EDH
GWURafiq of the Many Wins (1vs1)UWG
Jarad's Turbo Suicidal Squad (Multiplayer)
Pauper
Are you Afraid of Ghosts? You Better Be!
16 enchantments might be a bit much, though. Keep Etherial Armor, that one has always been an all-star. Add land and you're set.
SB you want Blind Obediance, especially in this meta.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Glad to hear some feedback from someone who has played Agent too
I feel the same with your observations, and luckily are cards I already have, so no need to spend more, lol, updated list.
I don't think I need more than 20 lands, everything is really cheap (but eidolon's bestow, which is not expensive either), my testings have come fine with them. I think this deck just asks 4 of everything to have consistency.
Weird Idea of the Month (Standard)
RGWNaya Token CommandoWGR
Rate/discuss my decks :D(almost all formats)
Standard
Orzhov Voltron Superheroes
Modern
Infectors
Legacy
UGBack to Square OneGU
EDH
GWURafiq of the Many Wins (1vs1)UWG
Jarad's Turbo Suicidal Squad (Multiplayer)
Pauper
Are you Afraid of Ghosts? You Better Be!
My question for you is what is the optimum # of spells to creatures in your opinion. Thanks.
Incase anyone wants to see the GB its below.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=542586
I can tell that, it must be as equal as possible between creatures and heroic enablers. Obviously, the more heroic creatures you use, the better, so 4-8 heroic creatures won't work, it needs at least 12 so it is worth the build.
Weird Idea of the Month (Standard)
RGWNaya Token CommandoWGR
Rate/discuss my decks :D(almost all formats)
Standard
Orzhov Voltron Superheroes
Modern
Infectors
Legacy
UGBack to Square OneGU
EDH
GWURafiq of the Many Wins (1vs1)UWG
Jarad's Turbo Suicidal Squad (Multiplayer)
Pauper
Are you Afraid of Ghosts? You Better Be!
I've been running something very much like this in the past weeks, making a bunch of changes that haven't always been for the best.
4x Agent of the Fates
2x Fabled Hero
4x Favored Hoplite
3x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Heliod, God of the Sun
3x Hopeful Eidolon
4x Ethereal Armor
4x Gift of Orzhova
4x Thoughtseize
4x Gods Willing
4x Orzhov Charm
4x Godless Shrine
9x Plains
5x Swamp
4x Temple of Silence
Got a couple of questions for you though...
a) Have you tested Heliod vs Underworld Connections? Haven't really had time to test UC, but Heliod has proven not too shabby for me in those games that stretch.
b) How's Nighthowler working for you? Don't you find it a "win more" card?
c) Have you tried splashing other colors? I haven't really tried because it demands more time than I can currently put in, but the prospect of having access to Lotleth Troll, Golgari Charm/Selesnya Charm and possibly Warriors' Lesson looks tempting when splashing G.
In my experiences, this is where High Priest of Penance can really become useful. Sure its a 1/1 body for 2cmc but the ability to destroy ANY non land permanent has come in handy more times than not. It can take out pesky plainswalkers, it can take out pesky big bodies, or it can take out those pesky enchantments that are just making things difficult. Only thing Ive found that these dont help me deal with are the Gods.
Maybe it isn't MB material, but I at least love having at least a few of these roaming around the SB.
Killing there planeswalkers is easy, suit up some gift of ozhova, then smack into them with a creature large enough to take it out. PWs are a non issue with these heroic decks. Especially if your playing Orzhov, you have access to hero's downfall.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Well, that's easy. Just run Great Wall.
The only planeswalker that can't be killed by a huge flying/trampling creature is elspeth because of her -3. If you're having trouble with that, simply either run hero's downfall, kill them before they can cast her, or play around her.
If you're splashing green, you need unflinching courage. It's one of the best auras in standard, and s better in multiples than gift.
Thank you so much :), indeed, the version in the primer is the most updated, and the one with best results up by now. I will change it in a little while, so this thread is updated too, thanks to remind it to me
I see the deck you have is pretty nice, almost the same as mine, lol. I'd like to see the sideboard, there is where problems come depending local metagame.
a) I haven't tested Heliod yet, but UC is pretty awesome against midrange and control, and since my local meta sees a lot of those decks (and you easily win against aggro anyway), that's why I got one in mainboard. Heliod would be awesome against control (only if they don't have Detention Sphere, I guess is worth the try, and vigilance X/X heroic creatures doesn't sound half bad either.
b) It is working nice indeed, allows me to win faster with stronger swings, something you desire on this deck, because prolonging won't be any good. But that Heliod seems promising, after all, I SB Nighthowler against control
c)Only card that would interest me enough to splash another color is Unflinching Courage, but right now the deck seems to have everything it needs so, although it would be pretty viable to make a WBG heroic, I will personally stick up with WB for consistency, but a build using Gladecover Scout and Witchstalker would be really promising too.
And about the PW issue... yes, Hero's Downfall fits really nice on the deck. PW barely are a menace, but if they manage to be, better to be prepared, because this is the real answer against them
Weird Idea of the Month (Standard)
RGWNaya Token CommandoWGR
Rate/discuss my decks :D(almost all formats)
Standard
Orzhov Voltron Superheroes
Modern
Infectors
Legacy
UGBack to Square OneGU
EDH
GWURafiq of the Many Wins (1vs1)UWG
Jarad's Turbo Suicidal Squad (Multiplayer)
Pauper
Are you Afraid of Ghosts? You Better Be!
Here's what I'm running SB:
2 Duress
3 Sin Collector
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vizkopa Guildmage
2 Wear/Tear
Most if it is for the control match up as you can see. I side Vizkopa at times for the hilarity of semi-double/triple strike with its second ability.
Most of my desire to go into other colors is fixing that dreaded turn 2 when you have no Hoplite/Thoughtseize in your opening hand. I think someone already said this in the other thread, but one downfall of BW Heroes is that you want to end up building monoThreeDrop.dec... all the good stuff is cmc 3 (Lifebane, Hero's Downfall, Underworld Connections, Fabled Hero, Agent, Fiendslayer, etc).
Inspiration for name is from WANTED, the Fraternity is a ancient organization, Agents of Fate, Elite Assassins
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Xathrid Necromancer
3 High Priest of Penance
3 Agent of the Fates
3 Thrill-Kill Assassin
2 Heliod, God of the Sun
4 Orzhov Charm
4 Ethereal Armor
3 Gift of Orzhova
3 Gods Willing
2 Boon of Erebos
8 Swamp
7 Plains
4 Godless Shrine
2 Temple of Silence
I have found that this deck is very effective at playing Aggro with the a touch of Control. Keeping the mana curve low I would prefer to stay away from double white mana....Fabled Hero and Phalanx Leader would really hurt the flow of the deck. (tested it and made it clunky)
BURPerfectly Suited to Mindless Carnage, ThraximundarRUB
URBOckham's Mindrazer = Nekusar the MindrazerBRU
UBRMarchsea makes all the Men do Stupid ThingsRBU
GWBThe Best Offense is Defense, Doran 2.0BWG
XRDaretti, Artifact ShenanigansRX
RKrenko the Don of the Goblin MobR
GFreyalise and Elves have pet HydrasG
WArmy of the Heavens, Lead by the Angel of HopeW
BDrana, The Removal BloodchiefB
UAzami, Knowledge is PowerU
WBDaxos is Enchanting Enchantments to Enchant more EnchantsBW
GRI got 99 Permanents but Primal Surge ain't One, Ruric TharRG
GBNel Thot's Sacrificial SwarmBG
WRWifey's Wrath - Gisela Blade of GoldnightRW
WUPillowfort Tron - BrunaUW
XXThe TriadXX
Do you have what it takes to survive?