BB has gone up $3 very recently. And you can have multiple barons out but a second obzedat is virtually dead in your hand since he's so difficult to remove
He is actually useful in multiples, as I have found out. You let him come back into play, attack with him, then during your second main phase you Whip the second one in, sacrificing the first one and recurring 2 Obzedats every turn. It is a 18 point life swing every turn if you can connect with him.
He is actually useful in multiples, as I have found out. You let him come back into play, attack with him, then during your second main phase you Whip the second one in, sacrificing the first one and recurring 2 Obzedats every turn. It is a 18 point life swing every turn if you can connect with him.
Wouldn't Whip just Exile the Obzedat you recurred permanently?
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Wouldn't Whip just Exile the Obzedat you recurred permanently?
I think what he's saying is turn 0, bring Obzedat #1 back, then exile it with its own ability. Turn 1, it comes back, attack, bring the second on, sac the first, exile the second. Turn 2, Obzedat #2 comes back into play, attack, whip the first back in, saccing the second, etc.
It's only a 13-point life swing since you can only attack with one.
I think what he's saying is turn 0, bring Obzedat #1 back, then exile it with its own ability. Turn 1, it comes back, attack, bring the second on, sac the first, exile the second. Turn 2, Obzedat #2 comes back into play, attack, whip the first back in, saccing the second, etc.
It's only a 13-point life swing since you can only attack with one.
I was actually asking if Whip would exile the Obzedat permanently without it ever coming back because Whip specifically says: "If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else", but after thinking about it a bit I guess Exile is Exile is Exile so Obzedat's ability should still work.
Had a moment, but whatevs, that's what judges are for.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Whip + Obzedat exile works and is probably the most well known synergy of the format by now.
That is incredible. Did not know this, but glad I have 2 whips and 2 obzedat's in my Junk deck.
As far as the Baron goes, I think he is a solid card, but I have trouble liking him. He is a pain, against my junk deck, as I don't have a ton that can stop him, which makes me think he is a side board card. If you aren't pre-pared for him, he wins hard. But, I feel like obzedat is a more consistent card, turn after turn he just gains you life and breaks opponents down. If the baron had flying at base, he would be incredible, but I feel there are too many large creatures out there that will have no problem with him. Theros introduced a lot of 4/4 creatures that can chump, and kill him no problem.
I might get 2 for my SB, but I will stick to my Obzedat MB.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
No one has mentioned Elspeth as a way to kill BBV? My UW deck is not afraid of him. If he slips by a counterspell, there is Supreme Verdict or Elspeth to kill him, and Aetherling can block him and zip to exile before damage is dealt. I might also catch them off guard with a Celestial Flare.
Thats a lot of ways to stop him, but i also plan to play some of that Swine card in my sideboard against midrange decks like BW and Dega.
No one has mentioned Elspeth as a way to kill BBV? My UW deck is not afraid of him. If he slips by a counterspell, there is Supreme Verdict or Elspeth to kill him, and Aetherling can block him and zip to exile before damage is dealt. I might also catch them off guard with a Celestial Flare.
Thats a lot of ways to stop him, but i also plan to play some of that Swine card in my sideboard against midrange decks like BW and Dega.
As a BW player I will attempt to defend BBoV. He is so difficult to kill that he warrants a spot and the life-swing is nothing to ignore. Only niche-decks like red maining Mizzium Mortars or Aetherling or Advent of the Wurm is going to bother him (which is a very niche set of answers). Any reasonable BW deck mains 4 Thoughtseizes, and vary in a number of Lifebane Zombie and Sin Collector in the main-board. In our weak match-ups we tend to disrupt your hand to the point where we know what to expect. If you counter a Thoughtseize then that's one less counter going towards Obzedat, Ghost Council.
I can't speak about other decks, but I've been playing blood baron over obzedat for six months or so in my Esper builds (obzedat's a bad card in 3-color decks due to the current manabase). He's great and a 4 point life gain is huge against most aggro decks. The decks he is less efficient against are mostly midrange decks which Esper preys on anyway (I just side him for aetherling). Counting the cards that kills him is somewhat pointless as most decks only play 4-5 cards that can answer him.
He's never particularly bad (even in his worst matchups), but also seldom causes an instant game win (just like revelation not winning the game on the spot despite the game often being over in actuality). I think it's this factor that causes so many people to underestimate him. Most control players seem believe a creature that doesn't chump in the early game or insta-win in the late game isn't a creature to play.
Whip is good enough to run even without Obzedat. Obzedat and BBV are about even on their own merits. If you are already running whip then Obzedat has synergy, and to quote Jack Donaghy: "You can't fight synergy Lemon, it's bigger than all of us". If you aren't going to run whip then you can use either, just pick the one that dodges the removal you are more afraid of. I have a feeling that the stronger card will reveal itself before too long if whip's not being used, but if it is it becomes no brainer which to use.
I think deciding between the two is a meta choice. BBoV is one of the hardest to remove creature with solid, but not amazing stats. If you are facing control decks and black and white heavy decks then I think he is a solid choice. What concerns me is that there are a lot of creature answers to him that will see play. Advent of the Wurm, boon satyr, Fanatic of Mogis and those frankly stop him pretty cold unless you have removal. Again, no saying he is bad, but there are definitely G/W and R/G decks out there, that I think will be popular, that will wreck the baron.
On the other hand, Obzedat always causes at least a 4 point life swing, and many times more than that. But as you say he is much more removable, and that is the trade off. You also mention the whip, which makes Obzedat incredibly powerful, it basically means you need to exile him to keep him out of play. Whip and BBoV is meh. I agree that building a deck around Obzedat and the whip is wrong, but if you are already playing the whip, like I am in my Junk Midrange deck, it makes Obzedat look much better.
That all being said, BBoV scares me enough that I have 4 answers to him in my SB and plan to get him in my SB as well in case I go up againts a removal heavy deck like Rock or B/W or Junk.
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He is actually useful in multiples, as I have found out. You let him come back into play, attack with him, then during your second main phase you Whip the second one in, sacrificing the first one and recurring 2 Obzedats every turn. It is a 18 point life swing every turn if you can connect with him.
Wouldn't Whip just Exile the Obzedat you recurred permanently?
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I think what he's saying is turn 0, bring Obzedat #1 back, then exile it with its own ability. Turn 1, it comes back, attack, bring the second on, sac the first, exile the second. Turn 2, Obzedat #2 comes back into play, attack, whip the first back in, saccing the second, etc.
It's only a 13-point life swing since you can only attack with one.
I was actually asking if Whip would exile the Obzedat permanently without it ever coming back because Whip specifically says: "If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else", but after thinking about it a bit I guess Exile is Exile is Exile so Obzedat's ability should still work.
Had a moment, but whatevs, that's what judges are for.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Man, I play red. The only synergy I keep up with is between tapping Mountains and playing spells that kill my opponent.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
That is incredible. Did not know this, but glad I have 2 whips and 2 obzedat's in my Junk deck.
As far as the Baron goes, I think he is a solid card, but I have trouble liking him. He is a pain, against my junk deck, as I don't have a ton that can stop him, which makes me think he is a side board card. If you aren't pre-pared for him, he wins hard. But, I feel like obzedat is a more consistent card, turn after turn he just gains you life and breaks opponents down. If the baron had flying at base, he would be incredible, but I feel there are too many large creatures out there that will have no problem with him. Theros introduced a lot of 4/4 creatures that can chump, and kill him no problem.
I might get 2 for my SB, but I will stick to my Obzedat MB.
Thats a lot of ways to stop him, but i also plan to play some of that Swine card in my sideboard against midrange decks like BW and Dega.
As a BW player I will attempt to defend BBoV. He is so difficult to kill that he warrants a spot and the life-swing is nothing to ignore. Only niche-decks like red maining Mizzium Mortars or Aetherling or Advent of the Wurm is going to bother him (which is a very niche set of answers). Any reasonable BW deck mains 4 Thoughtseizes, and vary in a number of Lifebane Zombie and Sin Collector in the main-board. In our weak match-ups we tend to disrupt your hand to the point where we know what to expect. If you counter a Thoughtseize then that's one less counter going towards Obzedat, Ghost Council.
He's never particularly bad (even in his worst matchups), but also seldom causes an instant game win (just like revelation not winning the game on the spot despite the game often being over in actuality). I think it's this factor that causes so many people to underestimate him. Most control players seem believe a creature that doesn't chump in the early game or insta-win in the late game isn't a creature to play.
Know thine enemy as thou know thy self.
On the other hand, Obzedat always causes at least a 4 point life swing, and many times more than that. But as you say he is much more removable, and that is the trade off. You also mention the whip, which makes Obzedat incredibly powerful, it basically means you need to exile him to keep him out of play. Whip and BBoV is meh. I agree that building a deck around Obzedat and the whip is wrong, but if you are already playing the whip, like I am in my Junk Midrange deck, it makes Obzedat look much better.
That all being said, BBoV scares me enough that I have 4 answers to him in my SB and plan to get him in my SB as well in case I go up againts a removal heavy deck like Rock or B/W or Junk.