I've been finding that essence scatter is crucial for not lagging behind against voice/thragtusk/etc. I've been playing more scatters than doom blade, although the versatility of doom blade isn't anything to scoff at either.
@Cipher: I can totally see cutting the ratchet bomb for more spheres. It hasn't performed for me yet.
What are people's opinions on notion thief? Too cute?
A meta choice. If you have a lot of control, putting 2 in the sideboard is great. If not, don't waste the space.
I played it in my Grixis list, and it felt like a 4 mana blowout for Sphinx's Revelation, exactly. I know it also get's Think Twice, but given the removal spells present, even after sideboarding, I just felt that another Memory Adept was better.
Maybe it would be great if you see a lot of Revelation decks? I mostly just play against these midrange and aggro decks. It's also passable against GB Rock, I suppose. In Grixis, they leave in removal for Olivia, but in Esper, I doubt they have anything after board, and it would be good against the early Liliana and Underworld Connections, the 2 cards that matter the most. It also could blow out Garruk's ultimate (his -3 ability). My guess is that it would just work poorly with Supreme Verdict, though.
I was thinking about how most midrange and control rely on/incorporate card draw, so there isn't a lack of targets in those decks (specifically thinking of G/B, Jund, every control deck ever).
Im surprised that no one is using Mind Grind. I have a single one in my deck along with Aetherling as my finishers. Late game you can end the game on the spot with it. And most people dont expect it which is another plus.
Im surprised that no one is using Mind Grind. I have a single one in my deck along with Aetherling as my finishers. Late game you can end the game on the spot with it. And most people dont expect it which is another plus.
That card is marginally faster than Jace, at the expense of totally tapping out, and isn't a 5 mana Staff of Nin.
I've been fiddling about adding x3 or x4 Silence to my deck either MB or SB. It seems to resolve alot of our problems with aggro decks. If you drop this Turn 2 and/or 3,they are sufficiently slowed enough where we can reach our critical turn 4 with ease.
I've been fiddling about adding x3 or x4 Silence to my deck either MB or SB. It seems to resolve alot of our problems with aggro decks. If you drop this Turn 2 and/or 3,they are sufficiently slowed enough where we can reach our critical turn 4 with ease.
you can respond to Silence when it's on the stack, as long as its an instant. you cast silence, you opponent can still cast any instant(s) in response to silence going on the stack. Seems too underwhelming to spend crucial MD or SB slots on. I would use feeling of dread if you are having trouble getting to turn 4 against aggro.
you can respond to Silence when it's on the stack, as long as its an instant. you cast silence, you opponent can still cast any instant(s) in response to silence going on the stack. Seems too underwhelming to spend crucial MD or SB slots on. I would use feeling of dread if you are having trouble getting to turn 4 against aggro.
BTE isnt an instant and cant be cast during the upkeep phase, also, feeling of dread will be rotating out. and if feeling of dread was that good, naya blitz wouldnt have been doing so well since it started
BTE isnt an instant and cant be cast during the upkeep phase, also, feeling of dread will be rotating out. and if feeling of dread was that good, naya blitz wouldnt have been doing so well since it started
At the end of the day, Silence in a Control deck is at best an extra land drop. Nothing happens on the turn you cast Silence, and your Aggro opponent also plays his land, as well. You're better off with Feeling of Dread, which is also weak. I used to run Feeling of Dread post board when I had 6+ sweepers in my deck, since the 2 extra land drops worked well with sweepers. It also sets your opponent up to walk into your sweepers.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're not running 4x Augur of Bolas? If I'm right, Augur is the best fog you can ask for against Aggro. You should run a full playset before running actual fogs like Feeling of Dread, or pseudo-fogs like Silence.
Another option is to run Blind Obedience. The Kibler Gruul deck has something like 12-16 haste creatures. That's a lot of Lava Spikes you're saving yourself; let's not even start on Hellrider and Thundermaw. I've been using it as a placeholder till Archangel of Thune comes down low enough for me to try it.
At the end of the day, Silence in a Control deck is at best an extra land drop. Nothing happens on the turn you cast Silence, and your Aggro opponent also plays his land, as well.
Isn`t that exactly what you want, i mean if instead of going BTE+BTE+mauler on turn 2, your opponent goes, land+pass the turn, isnt that already a huge win for you? Plus you cant feeling of dread on turn 2 if your on the draw since youll only have 1 land.
Silence doesn't impact the board. As in, their t1 stromkirk noble is going to continue to just get bigger while you stymie their BTE t2? While you have card disadvantage (you lose one card and don't gain any in the process)? Seems way too suspect for me. How is it against the aggro decks? I suspect it's good in a few situations, but poor in many others.
Cipher's advice on augurs and blind obedience *definitely* help and i've tested those myself. Augurs block 1/1 or 2/2s, preventing a lot of damage or demanding a spear/pillar from their hand. Blind obedience helps against:
Boar, Ash Zealot, Chandra's Phoenix, Hellrider, Thundermaw, Lightning Mauler+Anything
Plus the random little lifegain from extort once you can stabilize off a sweep.
Isn`t that exactly what you want, i mean if instead of going BTE+BTE+mauler on turn 2, your opponent goes, land+pass the turn, isnt that already a huge win for you? Plus you cant feeling of dread on turn 2 if your on the draw since youll only have 1 land.
Silence is the equivalent of playing an unsummon on a non-BTE creature. It's a temp play and generates card disadvantage. If you essence scatter that same creature (or even BTE), you've also made a tempo play, but they've got one less card too.
Feeling of dread is far better than silence because its flashback offers two spells for one card, affects 4 creatures, and can do it's job when they've already cast creatures. Additionally, it works when they have no non-land cards in hand.
Where silence comes into it's own is combo. You play silence for the cheap cost of W. If they counter it, that's one less counter (and probably 2-3 less mana) that can stop you. If they don't counter it, then your combo goes off without them intervening (unless they have something on the board, but you can play around that since you know what it is).
I've been playing a lot of BW Midrange lately and I thought of giving Esper a last hurrah before rotation by splashing blue into the deck. So here's Esper Midrange:
So post-rotation once Theros is in, based on the new cards this is what I'm kinda thinking I'm going to be testing out, still have to see what else we get though from Theros so this is still tentative:
Esper should be well positioned post rotation, aggro will likely be slower, Astricrats will be gone, garruck primal hunter will be gone. I really think Read the Bones is a great draw engine. Thoughtseize will take your opponents best card or a card you just can't deal with, which will really help Esper. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a bomb with its +1 ability every turn and can board wipe midrange decks.
So post-rotation once Theros is in, based on the new cards this is what I'm kinda thinking I'm going to be testing out, still have to see what else we get though from Theros so this is still tentative:
Esper should be well positioned post rotation, aggro will likely be slower, Astricrats will be gone, garruck primal hunter will be gone. I really think Read the Bones is a great draw engine. Thoughtseize will take your opponents best card or a card you just can't deal with, which will really help Esper. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a bomb with its +1 ability every turn and can board wipe midrange decks.
I really like this list, and its honestly VERY similar to my current plans. I'm really, really excited for new elspeth. However, she has always been my favorite Planeswalker, so I'm a bit bias.
i dont know about the new elspeth, especially since we already have aetherling in the 6 spot but tbh, with the reveal of Sylvan Caryatid, i might just switch bant.
There's still almost a month before Theros hits Standard. Please move all rotation discussion to Standard New Card Discussion. Thanks.
There's an announcement in the Standard New Card Discussion that specifically says to keep talk about current standard and not to post "Post-Rotation" threads. I'm by no means trying to be disrespectful or saying this is the correct place to be discussing post-rotation Esper, but if we aren't to discuss it in Standard New Card Discussion or here, then where would be the correct place?
Played FNM a few hours ago, around 16 players, 4 rounds then cut to the top 4, overall went 3-1-0 drawing into top 4 and finishing second (Lost to double resolved Burning Earth in game 3 of of the finals, sad part was I could have won playing through the first Burning Earth because I had a Nighthawk in play to 'buy' enough life back to keep playing spells, but the second Burning Earth sealed the deal...). Just glad I didn't fight Aristrocrats tonight.
Game 1 Selesnya Aggro (2-0)
Game 2 RB Aggro (2-0)
Game 3 Bant Midrange (2-1)
Game 4 BW Humans? (Draw)
Top 4
Game 5 Bant Hexproof (2-0)
Game 6 RB Aggro (1-2)
Played FNM last night and went 4-1 in a group of about 20. Got me 4th place, where only top 3 get prizes. Out of the 20 I'd say only about 4 or so (including myself) were playing control, very, VERY aggro heavy meta.
Anyway, here's my list which is all post-rotation safe. Side note, the Side board was made last minute as I was entering, so definitely not a final list.
RD1: Rakdos (RB Aggro) 1-2
Game 1: He took the first game by abusing Rakdos Return, decimating my hand.
Game 2: After taking a mulligan to 5 I pulled off game two thanks to Blind Obedience slowing down his aggro and swinging with the Baron, whose protection from Black became crucial.
Game 3: After HE mulligans to 5 he just hits everything he needs and I started with a hand of 5 lands and tried to make it work which proved to be poor decision making.
RD2: G/W Tokens 2-0
Game 1: he plays Evolving Wilds and accidentally shuffles his hand into his library.
Game 2: Despite having 3 Intangible Virtue in play, Supreme Verdict followed by a Detention Sphere took care of all my problems and I quickly followed with a Baron and easily took game 2.
RD3: Selesnya Aggro 2-0
Game 1: Voice of Resurgence runs into 3 separate Azorious Charms, and from there I have an answer for everything he hits and after sitting on one W land the entire game he scoops to move it to game 2.
Game 2: He lands an Ajani, brings himself up to 25 life and ultimates to produce 25 tokens. Supreme Verdict, followed by Aetherling.
RD4: G/R Werewolves (?) 2-1
Game 1: Blind Obedience. 'Nuff said. He just couldn't keep up the pace with all of his creatures coming in tapped.
Game 2: Nut draws on his end, his Werewolves were getting +1 +1 counters every turn and I had no answers.
Game 3: Rhuric Thar comes down and I take an early 6 but thankfully I Doom Blade / Devour Flesh 50% of his creatures and drop the blood baron for the W.
RD5: Boros Aggro (R/W) 2-1
Game 1: A lot of resistance with Protection from the elements, however when I drop a Blood Baron and get protection from white he just can't come back.
Game 2: Legions Initaive and Thalia make the game next to impossible for me. The cost of all my creature removal being 3 CMC instead of 2 absolutely wrecked me and gave him the game in no time.
Game 3: Blood Baron + Haunted Mail. GG.
A meta choice. If you have a lot of control, putting 2 in the sideboard is great. If not, don't waste the space.
I was thinking about how most midrange and control rely on/incorporate card draw, so there isn't a lack of targets in those decks (specifically thinking of G/B, Jund, every control deck ever).
That card is marginally faster than Jace, at the expense of totally tapping out, and isn't a 5 mana Staff of Nin.
you can respond to Silence when it's on the stack, as long as its an instant. you cast silence, you opponent can still cast any instant(s) in response to silence going on the stack. Seems too underwhelming to spend crucial MD or SB slots on. I would use feeling of dread if you are having trouble getting to turn 4 against aggro.
BTE isnt an instant and cant be cast during the upkeep phase, also, feeling of dread will be rotating out. and if feeling of dread was that good, naya blitz wouldnt have been doing so well since it started
At the end of the day, Silence in a Control deck is at best an extra land drop. Nothing happens on the turn you cast Silence, and your Aggro opponent also plays his land, as well. You're better off with Feeling of Dread, which is also weak. I used to run Feeling of Dread post board when I had 6+ sweepers in my deck, since the 2 extra land drops worked well with sweepers. It also sets your opponent up to walk into your sweepers.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're not running 4x Augur of Bolas? If I'm right, Augur is the best fog you can ask for against Aggro. You should run a full playset before running actual fogs like Feeling of Dread, or pseudo-fogs like Silence.
Another option is to run Blind Obedience. The Kibler Gruul deck has something like 12-16 haste creatures. That's a lot of Lava Spikes you're saving yourself; let's not even start on Hellrider and Thundermaw. I've been using it as a placeholder till Archangel of Thune comes down low enough for me to try it.
Isn`t that exactly what you want, i mean if instead of going BTE+BTE+mauler on turn 2, your opponent goes, land+pass the turn, isnt that already a huge win for you? Plus you cant feeling of dread on turn 2 if your on the draw since youll only have 1 land.
Cipher's advice on augurs and blind obedience *definitely* help and i've tested those myself. Augurs block 1/1 or 2/2s, preventing a lot of damage or demanding a spear/pillar from their hand. Blind obedience helps against:
Boar, Ash Zealot, Chandra's Phoenix, Hellrider, Thundermaw, Lightning Mauler+Anything
Plus the random little lifegain from extort once you can stabilize off a sweep.
Silence is the equivalent of playing an unsummon on a non-BTE creature. It's a temp play and generates card disadvantage. If you essence scatter that same creature (or even BTE), you've also made a tempo play, but they've got one less card too.
Feeling of dread is far better than silence because its flashback offers two spells for one card, affects 4 creatures, and can do it's job when they've already cast creatures. Additionally, it works when they have no non-land cards in hand.
Where silence comes into it's own is combo. You play silence for the cheap cost of W. If they counter it, that's one less counter (and probably 2-3 less mana) that can stop you. If they don't counter it, then your combo goes off without them intervening (unless they have something on the board, but you can play around that since you know what it is).
4 Desecration Demon
3 Lifebane Zombie
4 Restoration Angel
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Archangel of Thune
Instant and Sorcery - 14
2 Azorius Charm
2 Doom Blade
2 Tragic Slip
2 Essence Scatter
2 Far // Away
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
Land - 25
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Watery Grave
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Moorland Haunt
3 Duress
3 Negate
1 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Terminus
2 Detention Sphere
2 Erase
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Ætherling
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Other Spells (29)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Read the Bones
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Azorius Charm
4 Doom Blade
4 Devour Flesh
4 Far/Away
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands (25)
4 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Watery Grave
5 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Island
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Duress
2 Renounce the Guilds
3 Syncopate
2 Dispel
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Esper should be well positioned post rotation, aggro will likely be slower, Astricrats will be gone, garruck primal hunter will be gone. I really think Read the Bones is a great draw engine. Thoughtseize will take your opponents best card or a card you just can't deal with, which will really help Esper. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a bomb with its +1 ability every turn and can board wipe midrange decks.
I really like this list, and its honestly VERY similar to my current plans. I'm really, really excited for new elspeth. However, she has always been my favorite Planeswalker, so I'm a bit bias.
There's an announcement in the Standard New Card Discussion that specifically says to keep talk about current standard and not to post "Post-Rotation" threads. I'm by no means trying to be disrespectful or saying this is the correct place to be discussing post-rotation Esper, but if we aren't to discuss it in Standard New Card Discussion or here, then where would be the correct place?
Here's what I played:
Esper Control
3 Dead Weight
4 Doom Blade
4 Devour Flesh
4 Far/Away
3 Syncopate
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Sphinx's Revelation
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Sorin, Lord of Innastrad
Creatures (7)
4 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Vizkopa Blood Baron
2 Ætherling
4 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Watery Grave
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Duress
2 Dissipate
2 Lingering Souls
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Renounce the Guilds
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
Game 1 Selesnya Aggro (2-0)
Game 2 RB Aggro (2-0)
Game 3 Bant Midrange (2-1)
Game 4 BW Humans? (Draw)
Top 4
Game 5 Bant Hexproof (2-0)
Game 6 RB Aggro (1-2)
Anyway, here's my list which is all post-rotation safe. Side note, the Side board was made last minute as I was entering, so definitely not a final list.
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Aetherling
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Spells (29)
2 Essence Scatter
2 Devour Flesh
4 Azorius Charm
4 Far // Away
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
4 Doom Blade
2 Psychic Strike
2 Syncopate
1 Haunted Plate Mail
3 Sphinx's Revelation
7 Island
6 Plains
1 Azorious Guildgate
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Godless Shrine
4 Watery Grave
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Devour Flesh
1 Essence Scatter
1 Cancel
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sin Collector
1 Disperse
2 Blind Obedience
2 Detention Sphere
RD1: Rakdos (RB Aggro) 1-2
Game 1: He took the first game by abusing Rakdos Return, decimating my hand.
Game 2: After taking a mulligan to 5 I pulled off game two thanks to Blind Obedience slowing down his aggro and swinging with the Baron, whose protection from Black became crucial.
Game 3: After HE mulligans to 5 he just hits everything he needs and I started with a hand of 5 lands and tried to make it work which proved to be poor decision making.
RD2: G/W Tokens 2-0
Game 1: he plays Evolving Wilds and accidentally shuffles his hand into his library.
Game 2: Despite having 3 Intangible Virtue in play, Supreme Verdict followed by a Detention Sphere took care of all my problems and I quickly followed with a Baron and easily took game 2.
RD3: Selesnya Aggro 2-0
Game 1: Voice of Resurgence runs into 3 separate Azorious Charms, and from there I have an answer for everything he hits and after sitting on one W land the entire game he scoops to move it to game 2.
Game 2: He lands an Ajani, brings himself up to 25 life and ultimates to produce 25 tokens. Supreme Verdict, followed by Aetherling.
RD4: G/R Werewolves (?) 2-1
Game 1: Blind Obedience. 'Nuff said. He just couldn't keep up the pace with all of his creatures coming in tapped.
Game 2: Nut draws on his end, his Werewolves were getting +1 +1 counters every turn and I had no answers.
Game 3: Rhuric Thar comes down and I take an early 6 but thankfully I Doom Blade / Devour Flesh 50% of his creatures and drop the blood baron for the W.
RD5: Boros Aggro (R/W) 2-1
Game 1: A lot of resistance with Protection from the elements, however when I drop a Blood Baron and get protection from white he just can't come back.
Game 2: Legions Initaive and Thalia make the game next to impossible for me. The cost of all my creature removal being 3 CMC instead of 2 absolutely wrecked me and gave him the game in no time.
Game 3: Blood Baron + Haunted Mail. GG.