That actually is a pretty sizable list. Obzedat, Varolz, and Falkenrath Aristocrat (and to a lesser extent Olivia and Nighthawk) are all HUGE threats. You also forgot to mention Boros Charm and Loleth Troll.
which has been performing well. See, the things that Doom Blade doesn't hit are all hit by Renounce the Guilds, so there's no point in playing bad cards in the deck.
That actually is a pretty sizable list. Obzedat, Varolz, and Falkenrath Aristocrat (and to a lesser extent Olivia and Nighthawk) are all HUGE threats. You also forgot to mention Boros Charm and Loleth Troll.
Almost all those things die to Renounce -- which in the current meta is superior to both Blade and Warped. And Nighthawk is not a huge threat at all. It hits for two, gives the bad guy something we don't care about because for us his life total starts at 60 anyway and dies to half our deck. I am pretty happy when my oppo taps three for a bear. Certainly not as scary as Champion (growing bear) and BTE (exponential bear).
That said, play what you are comfortable with. If my meta suddenly fills up with black creatures then I will probably go with Warped too. On the other hand, if 4 out of 5 decks continue to be Naya, G/W and mono-R I will run Blade. There is a point around turn 5-8 when you have used up all your point removal and have few cards in hand and often low life total. I'd hate to have my oppo drop something scary (4/4 or bigger) and then I topdeck Warped and watch him kill me.
/M
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
Orzhov Charm perhaps? It does costs you life=the toughness of the creature (falkenreath is 1 not 4) though. not a big fan of the whole renounce the guilds, since it's role is taking out black creatures, and most black creature playing decks have multiple multicolored cards (both aristocrats and jund)
Sorry Hajile, I am not looking for what you think of the cards, I am asking people who have tested it to give it a review.
I don't like speaking in terms of absolutes -- especially if something has no absolutely true answer.
That said, I have tested the card, but by the time I had 5 mana, I'd rather be casting a verdict, planeswalker, revelation, or similar. Once again, everything in magic is relative. If you built your entire deck around it, then it would be the best draw (whether or not that deck would be competitive would be better is another thing).
Well, I tried the Walker heavy version online for 3 hours last night and had some very bad results overall. My only interest in playing Esper was if the Walker version could work (I find the sweep and mill strategy a bit boring), but I'm not sure it's feasible at the moment. I'd welcome suggestions to the list below--again, remember that I'm trying to make the Walker version work. I'm starting to think with all of the burn in UWR decks and the resilience of aggro decks that the Walker version is tough to play.
The problems I found:
1. I felt too slow for aggro decks, although I had some horrendous luck with the buddy lands. I'm almost thinking I'd rather up the Supreme Verdict or Terminus count even more maindeck.
2. The lands drove me crazy. I don't know how many games I started with only buddy lands and did not draw any non-buddy land for several turns. When you have all your colors you don't want to mulligan, but against the fast red based decks you almost have to.
3. I went 1-2 against "control." I lost to Bant control by failing to draw answers to the flash creatures and not having a counter when I needed it. I split against UWR control/flash. One game I lost by getting only 1 Drownyard! total in 2 games. The second I won with Liliana and the other Walkers in one game, and milled him in the other after sideboarding. The burn from UWR is tough though as it can dispatch our Walkers fairly easily.
I don't discount the fact that I had some bad luck last night, but against competitive decks I believe I was 4-7 on the night. Not good.
In place of the one Island, I have also tried 1 Cavern (to get our big guy out), 1 Vault of the Archangel, and a fourth Drownyard. Undecided as to what is best.
I have also tried several things in the Devour Flesh spot, and I'm not sure which is best maindeck--Warped Physique, Renounce the Guilds? Devour Flesh seems like the best so far.
Finally, I'm also tempted to drop one Jace, Architect for a Memory Adept main, or somehow fitting one Memory Adept in there.
Ah, finally posting with the big boys. well, might as well make a post for my deck , I'm playing a draw-go variant, and guess what? no drownyards. I've had quite the success against most decks, my aggro matchups are strong, but I'm weak against america (being piloted by the most experienced player I know, my roomate.)
I either 1-for-1 until revelade, or I do nothing until t4 supreme, then procede to 1-for-1 until they run out of gas, then procede to win with Aetherling, or sideboard wins to get around the pithing needle
the miser's unsummon is because its 1 mana, and doesn't have that annoying morbid clause tragic slip has, and wrecks angel of serenity. dimir charm is worth the singleton slot and does lots of work, have considered upping to 2 of them. everything else should be self-explanatory. in the board, notion vs. any heavy card draw deck, G-dad and baron against pithing needle, pithing needle vs. planeswalkers, maze's end, and tech-lands. negate vs. control, terminus vs. aggro, graveyard hate for graveyard-based decks, spotlight vs. hexproof just to turn on targetted removal.w
Well, I tried the Walker heavy version online for 3 hours last night and had some very bad results overall. My only interest in playing Esper was if the Walker version could work (I find the sweep and mill strategy a bit boring), but I'm not sure it's feasible at the moment. I'd welcome suggestions to the list below--again, remember that I'm trying to make the Walker version work. I'm starting to think with all of the burn in UWR decks and the resilience of aggro decks that the Walker version is tough to play.
Of course it's feasible. People are winning PTQs and the like with it everywhere. Here's one from my area, for example:
1.) Not play too many neat cards, or things you want to "try out".
2.) Not suck, or course.
In your list you have Liliana and Tamiyo. The original successful planeswalker build was running 4x Sorin and 4x Lingering Souls. People have cut 2x Sorin for 2x Jace and done well, but all the rest of these planeswalkers don't belong. Jace get's the free pass because of Aristocrats.
1.) Not play too many neat cards, or things you want to "try out".
2.) Not suck, or course.
In your list you have Liliana and Tamiyo. The original successful planeswalker build was running 4x Sorin and 4x Lingering Souls. People have cut 2x Sorin for 2x Jace and done well, but all the rest of these planeswalkers don't belong. Jace get's the free pass because of Aristocrats.
I'll ignore the cute stuff and focus on the substantive stuff. What I mean to say when I say "feasible" is that the meta can be very harsh to Esper if you start running up against a lot of fast aggro decks and flash decks. Anyway, you think Liliana and Tamiyo should be cut at this point out of Esper? I know Tamiyo works very well in UWR control (something I've had a lot of experience with), and 1 Liliana seems good for at least a sac effect because she is great against control. I may just have had a bad night of drawing--I'll be trying again later tonight.
Reap intellect is outstanding in control mirrors, at least if your opponent doesn't know you have it. It's very easy actually to bait an opponent into tapping out.
You have to consciously navigate the game to a point where you tap out on your turn and lose a fight over an irrelevant spell, have the opponent tap out on there turn for an uncounterable revelation(usually the correct play since control mirrors are very rarely punishing), then you untap, and Reap them of all their relevant cards. It's basically the perfect 1-of if you expect to play the control mirror.
1.) Not play too many neat cards, or things you want to "try out".
2.) Not suck, or course.
In your list you have Liliana and Tamiyo. The original successful planeswalker build was running 4x Sorin and 4x Lingering Souls. People have cut 2x Sorin for 2x Jace and done well, but all the rest of these planeswalkers don't belong. Jace get's the free pass because of Aristocrats.
Good lord, posts like this are horrible. Linking decklists are well and good and noting what's played in said decklists is also well and good, but leaving it at that is bland and not conducive to creating good quality on the competitive boards. Say something substantive like WHY lily and tamiyo are don't belong. While it may feel beneath you, if you think it's obvious and should be obvious to everyone else, you probably don't need to bother posting here. Otherwise, try to actually add to the discussion.
"You're wrong"=Bad.
You're wrong, here's why"=Good and helpful.
I'll try to give an example. Tamiyo has a negligible affect vs. most of the field and doesn't contribute to your overall gameplan because here abilities are low impact and narrow against the threats you're generally going to be facing. Depending on your build, the gameplan is generally to find answers, and live long enough to chain big revs until you can kill with drownyard(or your opponent scoops, whatever), with a backup plan of killing with sorin+tokens. Tamiyo at best is often a bad detention sphere. She's fine in control mirrors and ok against midrange decks, but horrible against agro and generally a win more card most of the time.
Liliana on the other hand is a fine card, but you need to build your deck more specifically to take advantage of her abilities and generally speaking, the 4 lingering souls is often, if not always better. She's very good in the control mirror however and drastically goes up in value with the more walkers you have on board and the later into the game you are assuming the board isn't full of dudes(in which case you aren't winning anyways without a board wipe more like as not.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Good lord, posts like this are horrible. Linking decklists are well and good and noting what's played in said decklists is also well and good, but leaving it at that is bland and not conducive to creating good quality on the competitive boards. Say something substantive like WHY lily and tamiyo are don't belong. While it may feel beneath you, if you think it's obvious and should be obvious to everyone else, you probably don't need to bother posting here. Otherwise, try to actually add to the discussion.
"You're wrong"=Bad.
You're wrong, here's why"=Good and helpful.
I'll try to give an example. Tamiyo has a negligible affect vs. most of the field and doesn't contribute to your overall gameplan because here abilities are low impact and narrow against the threats you're generally going to be facing. Depending on your build, the gameplan is generally to find answers, and live long enough to chain big revs until you can kill with drownyard(or your opponent scoops, whatever), with a backup plan of killing with sorin+tokens. Tamiyo at best is often a bad detention sphere. She's fine in control mirrors and ok against midrange decks, but horrible against agro and generally a win more card most of the time.
Liliana on the other hand is a fine card, but you need to build your deck more specifically to take advantage of her abilities and generally speaking, the 4 lingering souls is often, if not always better. She's very good in the control mirror however and drastically goes up in value with the more walkers you have on board and the later into the game you are assuming the board isn't full of dudes(in which case you aren't winning anyways without a board wipe more like as not.
Every page of every thread for a Control deck has a post that read: "X Control deck isn't competitive for Y Reason." Followed by a list that has a bunch of random cards that don't appear in any successful decks.
Instead of ignoring it like I normally would, I commented that that's not true, and pointed out decklists that have won PTQs recently. There's more to be gleaned from those 2 decklists than I could fit in a single post. I thought it was pretty constructive.
How am I supposed to explain why Tamiyo isn't a good choice? It' a powerful card, and people want to run 1 of each of these planeswalkers because they're all sweet. If you're newer you're statistically going to be better off starting with netdecks and going from there. The fact that people always start throwing in the randoms is why noone takes these forums seriously.
To elaborate on what I wrote earlier, Tamiyo only got play in UWR, because that initial list that won in the SCG Open wanted to combo it with Assemble the Legion. The card is great when you have a weakness to cards like Thragtusk, or you're running 6+ sweepers. I like Tamiyo with a pile of sweepers because she bridges the gap between Supreme Verdict and Terminus and can tap down the follow-up play, making following sweepers always 2-for-1's. None of these things are happening in Esper, though. Sweepers are being cut down in numbers, and even if the real threat was the Junk decks, Ætherling is just plain better.
Liliana is bad in Control, period, and only has been played when 1) UB Control from 2012 needed to kill Geist of Saint Traft, and 2) Solar Flare wanted a Sun Titan target as well as a discard outlet. A control deck is naturally going to be the last to empty their hand, and you end up discarding removal spells to charge up Liliana, who requires 2 doom blades to be binned in order to get 1 edict. You could also bin lands, but who are we kidding...this is a revelation deck. Thing is, even with me saying that, someone will come and say that they love Liliana and she's a great card...yet Control is obviously in a bad spot right now because their deck with Liliana sucks. What do you say to that?
On top of that, if Murdock compares the lists that won PTQs, he'll notice a pile of differences with the bottom half of his curve. Those decks completely abandoned Think Twice, which is a card that's only good in Draw-Go decks. The only virtue of the card is the instant-speed, which allows you to the flexibility of choosing whether to counter a spell, kill a creature, or draw a card each turn. If I was him, I'd replace them with Augur to make the planeswalkers stronger. "But Augur puts my planeswalkers on the bottom!" When people say that, I just have no comment anymore. You can only argue on the internet so much. He also has Far // Away, in a deck with no creatures to return to his hand, but already loaded up on 4 and 5 mana plays like Lingering Souls (essentially occupies those turns) and 5 sweepers to deal with the board. Those slots would be better as Doom Blade variants, although if he adds Augurs an argument could be made. But would it be right, when the successful decklists skipped this obvious powerhouse completely?
There's also the issue of running 4x counterspells in a superfriends deck. The other lists ran 2. He'll see it when he compares them. Although, what won't be apparent is that Syncopate is a crappy magic card. Essence Scatter is better. I'd either cut the 2x Syncopate for 2x Essence Scatter, or cut them both and run 2x Dissipate.
I suppose if the post had been a question on theory, I'd have loved to answer. But when people complain about Control not being able to win, the most obvious thing is for them to copy a deck that does win and learn to pilot it.
EDIT: Also, he tested on what appears to be MODO 2-mans. That's basically 90% aggro. Not remotely realistic. You have to pony up cash and time for Daily events to get any practice on MODO that's relevant.
I either 1-for-1 until revelade, or I do nothing until t4 supreme, then procede to 1-for-1 until they run out of gas, then procede to win with Aetherling, or sideboard wins to get around the pithing needle
Several points of note.
1) If we see more AEtherling, then we will have a hilarious choice when we board in the mirror: Do we board out our AEtherlings for Pithing Needles or for something else, like more cantrips to hit lands? He might also be boarding out his 'lings for Needles and as such your needles will be dead cards...
2) What Tibalt is saying here is what I've been trying to drill into the heads of half my LGS that thinks Esper is bad without Snaps. You can just 1-for-1 people, maybe 2-for-1 with Wraths, until you hit a Revelation. You don't need fancy card advantage tricks and 2-for-1s all day long.
3) I still don't know if there's a good reason NOT to run both Drownyard and AEtherling main. You need land in the deck anyway... If there is and I'm being stupid, explain for me why. Please.
4) Are people still running Jace, Memory Adept as a sideboard win-con? How are other people doing with it? It's been outstanding for me, but I want a few more data points.
3) I still don't know if there's a good reason NOT to run both Drownyard and AEtherling main. You need land in the deck anyway... If there is and I'm being stupid, explain for me why. Please.
2x Nephalia Drownyard is basically free. You may never use it, but at the very least put in 2 Ghost Quarter or basic lands if you don't want to run them. You only have 2 black spells in your entire deck, 12 black sources would be fine. I'd cut 2x shocklands for whatever you decide. Note that in the mirror, you only have 2 win conditions maindeck without Drownyard. What if you lose a counter war and the other is on the bottom 3?
4) Are people still running Jace, Memory Adept as a sideboard win-con? How are other people doing with it? It's been outstanding for me, but I want a few more data points.
I think you only want Jace at all if you run Drownyard. Maybe that's just me, though. I run 4x Drownyard, and 1 Memory Adept main and another in the sideboard. A single mill with the Jace and you can race almost any bomb in the mirror with 2x Drownyards on board.
This got me thinking big-time. In my sigged list, do you guys think that those two Syncopates should be Dissipates?
Yeah. Considering you're not running planeswalkers, I'd think you'd want 4 counterspells, even. I'd run 2x Essence Scatter in the place of Doom Blade, but I'm sure most people will want to run it since it just came back. Problem with Doom Blade is that the green creatures nowadays will 2 for 1 your removal spell, whether it's Emissary, Voice, Thragtusk, Acidic Slime, etc...Essence Scatter is also a key card to beat the Restoration Angel UWR decks. I even have an extra copy in the sideboard. Once again, it stops Snapcaster from being a 2 for 1. Another option to cut is either the Oblivion Rings, or Renounce the Guilds, since they're mostly overlap. I think I'd move the Renounce to the sideboard, that's a narrow card to be running maindeck. Basically everything not named Domri Rade will be dealt with easier by Essence Scatter than Renounce.
On another note, if those Sin Collectors are for the mirror, Duress is just better. Also, more Terminus is way better than Sever the Bloodline. Sever is a 4 mana sorcery speed Doom Blade variant that's better suited for limited than constructed. I ran it for a long time and I don't think I ever flashed it back. Appetite for Brains is probably better than both, for you, as well. In these Ætherling mirrors your worried about, you can strip theirs even if the have Cavern.
Also, Rest in Peace is pretty outmoded by Crypt Incursion, or even Cremate, honestly. Reanimator doesn't beat you because of Unburial Rites, it's the early hate bears and then 5 drops that will break you. At least Crypt incursion or Cremate, or even Purify the Grave will time walk them when you play it, that buys critical time early game, since that's a turn that they could be slamming another fatty (They wouldn't play Rites if you have out RIP). I run just 1x Crypt Incursion as hate, since I have 4x Dissipate after boarding, but a Cremate or Purify would be easier to hold up. Unburial Rites is a turn 6 or 7 play, which is easy to handle, at least if you run 3x Dissipate + 2x Snapcaster maindeck like I do. Even without that, you don't lose those games once you cast Revelation for more than 2, normally. The games where they cast Rites early are the rare occasions where they get good mills and don't have a 5 drop in hand.
I don't understand the Blood Barons, either, but I understand that it's a interesting card. I think putting the last 2 copies of Terminus in it's place would basically make any Aristocrats deck cry when you faced it, though. the card doesn't seem like it has any other applications. Blind Obedience or something would be better against Aggro, as would the extra Terminus, I'd think. Ghor-Clan Rampager and Searing Spear blow out the 5-mana Baron pretty bad.
One last thing. With your list being draw-go, you've got no excuse outside of money problems to not be running 4x Revelation. The Superfriends version have another form of card advantage, but a draw-go version has to cast Revelations to do anything.
One more last thing. If you're playing Draw-Go, Think Twice couldn't be anything but a 4-of. It's like a Leyline that lets you pay 2U to draw a card once per turn. The perfect mana dump. You also will find that Revelation is hard to play with if you don't concentrate on always hitting land drops. With so many sweepers, you're better off taking damage early and drawing lands instead of casting Doom Blade just to get 2-for-1'd. Running six sweepers in your version only makes this more true.
Every page of every thread for a Control deck has a post that read: "X Control deck isn't competitive for Y Reason." Followed by a list that has a bunch of random cards that don't appear in any successful decks.
Instead of ignoring it like I normally would, I commented that that's not true, and pointed out decklists that have won PTQs recently. There's more to be gleaned from those 2 decklists than I could fit in a single post. I thought it was pretty constructive.
How am I supposed to explain why Tamiyo isn't a good choice? It' a powerful card, and people want to run 1 of each of these planeswalkers because they're all sweet. If you're newer you're statistically going to be better off starting with netdecks and going from there. The fact that people always start throwing in the randoms is why noone takes these forums seriously.
To elaborate on what I wrote earlier, Tamiyo only got play in UWR, because that initial list that won in the SCG Open wanted to combo it with Assemble the Legion. The card is great when you have a weakness to cards like Thragtusk, or you're running 6+ sweepers. I like Tamiyo with a pile of sweepers because she bridges the gap between Supreme Verdict and Terminus and can tap down the follow-up play, making following sweepers always 2-for-1's. None of these things are happening in Esper, though. Sweepers are being cut down in numbers, and even if the real threat was the Junk decks, Ætherling is just plain better.
Liliana is bad in Control, period, and only has been played when 1) UB Control from 2012 needed to kill Geist of Saint Traft, and 2) Solar Flare wanted a Sun Titan target as well as a discard outlet. A control deck is naturally going to be the last to empty their hand, and you end up discarding removal spells to charge up Liliana, who requires 2 doom blades to be binned in order to get 1 edict. You could also bin lands, but who are we kidding...this is a revelation deck. Thing is, even with me saying that, someone will come and say that they love Liliana and she's a great card...yet Control is obviously in a bad spot right now because their deck with Liliana sucks. What do you say to that?
On top of that, if Murdock compares the lists that won PTQs, he'll notice a pile of differences with the bottom half of his curve. Those decks completely abandoned Think Twice, which is a card that's only good in Draw-Go decks. The only virtue of the card is the instant-speed, which allows you to the flexibility of choosing whether to counter a spell, kill a creature, or draw a card each turn. If I was him, I'd replace them with Augur to make the planeswalkers stronger. "But Augur puts my planeswalkers on the bottom!" When people say that, I just have no comment anymore. You can only argue on the internet so much. He also has Far // Away, in a deck with no creatures to return to his hand, but already loaded up on 4 and 5 mana plays like Lingering Souls (essentially occupies those turns) and 5 sweepers to deal with the board. Those slots would be better as Doom Blade variants, although if he adds Augurs an argument could be made. But would it be right, when the successful decklists skipped this obvious powerhouse completely?
There's also the issue of running 4x counterspells in a superfriends deck. The other lists ran 2. He'll see it when he compares them. Although, what won't be apparent is that Syncopate is a crappy magic card. Essence Scatter is better. I'd either cut the 2x Syncopate for 2x Essence Scatter, or cut them both and run 2x Dissipate.
I suppose if the post had been a question on theory, I'd have loved to answer. But when people complain about Control not being able to win, the most obvious thing is for them to copy a deck that does win and learn to pilot it.
EDIT: Also, he tested on what appears to be MODO 2-mans. That's basically 90% aggro. Not remotely realistic. You have to pony up cash and time for Daily events to get any practice on MODO that's relevant.
Take all my comments with a grain of salt but mull them over, because I feel pretty strongly about them. I dont mean to imply "pretty much this", but Cipher's points, having been explained, are accurate. I am just voicing that I have found the same results with planeswalkers like Tamiyo and Liliana or augur and syncopate (god I remember how much I hate syncopate, and how much I used to hate augur for moving cards out of my grasp)
The truth that I have found about Augur of bolas seems to be that if you are putting cards at the bottom it is a card that can be seen again later in the game with the amount of draw options this deck has available to it, so that argument is taken with a grain of salt. Truth be told the cards that augur usually digs for are the ones that keep you in the game in conjunction with the 1/3 body that soaks up ground damage, and it is a minor card with potential impact against non-aggro decks unless it draws you the revelation or counter you need for a specific spell.
With walkers like jace and sorin, they are played in multiples so you can dig into them in the case of sending one to the bottom with Augur's effect (specifically relating to the understanding of the "Augur is giving me time to see other copies of that card later" psychology behind playing Augur and not playing augur). There is a question that players may or may not have asked themselves when it comes to "But Augur puts my planeswalkers on the bottom!" reasoning, and that is "would you have gotten to a position where you could play that walker without full risk of a blowout without having played said augur"
There are linear frames of thinking that restrict play capabilities, and I would venture a guess that this is a big one as far as success with the deck. The luck factor is obviously relevant, but the shock value of seeing a power card slip out of your reach puts some players into "tunnel vision" and most dont allow themselves to see the possibilities of surviving to find another copy of the card later.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
first match was bant hexproof.
second match was naya blitz.
third match was junk tokens.
fourth match was jund but we decided to draw. i was sick of playing against green decks.
all of my matches i played were 2-1. the first 2 matches i lost game 1, sideboarded in my aggro hate and crushed games 2 and 3.
vs. tokens i won game 1, drug out game 2 and lost due to not finding revelade. game 3 i topped deck repeated board wipes until i resolve agent smith, swing while blocking advent of the wurm. resolve obzedat and proceed to repeadetly flicker both in a complicated manner until i won.
Every page of every thread for a Control deck has a post that read: "X Control deck isn't competitive for Y Reason." Followed by a list that has a bunch of random cards that don't appear in any successful decks.
Instead of ignoring it like I normally would, I commented that that's not true, and pointed out decklists that have won PTQs recently. There's more to be gleaned from those 2 decklists than I could fit in a single post. I thought it was pretty constructive.
How am I supposed to explain why Tamiyo isn't a good choice? It' a powerful card, and people want to run 1 of each of these planeswalkers because they're all sweet. If you're newer you're statistically going to be better off starting with netdecks and going from there. The fact that people always start throwing in the randoms is why noone takes these forums seriously.
To elaborate on what I wrote earlier, Tamiyo only got play in UWR, because that initial list that won in the SCG Open wanted to combo it with Assemble the Legion. The card is great when you have a weakness to cards like Thragtusk, or you're running 6+ sweepers. I like Tamiyo with a pile of sweepers because she bridges the gap between Supreme Verdict and Terminus and can tap down the follow-up play, making following sweepers always 2-for-1's. None of these things are happening in Esper, though. Sweepers are being cut down in numbers, and even if the real threat was the Junk decks, Ætherling is just plain better.
Liliana is bad in Control, period, and only has been played when 1) UB Control from 2012 needed to kill Geist of Saint Traft, and 2) Solar Flare wanted a Sun Titan target as well as a discard outlet. A control deck is naturally going to be the last to empty their hand, and you end up discarding removal spells to charge up Liliana, who requires 2 doom blades to be binned in order to get 1 edict. You could also bin lands, but who are we kidding...this is a revelation deck. Thing is, even with me saying that, someone will come and say that they love Liliana and she's a great card...yet Control is obviously in a bad spot right now because their deck with Liliana sucks. What do you say to that?
On top of that, if Murdock compares the lists that won PTQs, he'll notice a pile of differences with the bottom half of his curve. Those decks completely abandoned Think Twice, which is a card that's only good in Draw-Go decks. The only virtue of the card is the instant-speed, which allows you to the flexibility of choosing whether to counter a spell, kill a creature, or draw a card each turn. If I was him, I'd replace them with Augur to make the planeswalkers stronger. "But Augur puts my planeswalkers on the bottom!" When people say that, I just have no comment anymore. You can only argue on the internet so much. He also has Far // Away, in a deck with no creatures to return to his hand, but already loaded up on 4 and 5 mana plays like Lingering Souls (essentially occupies those turns) and 5 sweepers to deal with the board. Those slots would be better as Doom Blade variants, although if he adds Augurs an argument could be made. But would it be right, when the successful decklists skipped this obvious powerhouse completely?
There's also the issue of running 4x counterspells in a superfriends deck. The other lists ran 2. He'll see it when he compares them. Although, what won't be apparent is that Syncopate is a crappy magic card. Essence Scatter is better. I'd either cut the 2x Syncopate for 2x Essence Scatter, or cut them both and run 2x Dissipate.
I suppose if the post had been a question on theory, I'd have loved to answer. But when people complain about Control not being able to win, the most obvious thing is for them to copy a deck that does win and learn to pilot it.
EDIT: Also, he tested on what appears to be MODO 2-mans. That's basically 90% aggro. Not remotely realistic. You have to pony up cash and time for Daily events to get any practice on MODO that's relevant.
Well, I really was looking for suggestions when I posted. I'm not sure why the tone of my post set you off so much--I thought I was clear that I was asking for suggestions because my *posted* deck--based off fairly recent Esper walkers lists--did not seem feasible in the aggro environment and I thought there was room for improvement. I mean, why else would I have posted? I wanted to improve the matchup against aggro in particular.
Anyway, my list started from a survey of all the recent Esper lists appearing in the top 16 of tournaments, so I'm a bit puzzled by the random cards statement. There is an incredible variety of lists, unlike UWR control, which I've typically been playing successfully competitively. I was hoping to build a solid Esper walkers list--one list with the Walkers did not play Augurs, so I was experimenting with taking them out. I had run Soorani's original Walkers list a month or two ago and it ran ok, but the meta has changed a bit.
I agree that my list may improve with 2-3 Augurs added to the deck, perhaps bumping Tamiyo and Liliana to the SB. Or, add more sweepers. I'm curious to see how that might work in Esper.
I'm not sure how you use Far//Away, but I typically use it to remove two of my opponent's creatures from the table. Obviously, it can be used on your own creatures too if you are playing more, but you seem to imply that it shouldn't be played in a Walkers creature-less version. That seems a bit odd to me. Even Soorani played Far//Away in his Walkers version.
As for Think Twice, if you are playing Terminus in multiples, I'm not sure why you think Think Twice is not a reasonable choice? All the Esper lists playing multiple Terminus are playing it, and it gives you the opportunity to miracle a Terminus on the opponent's turn. Even though I am not completely a draw-go deck, early on in the game you will find time when you are not casting something and Think Twice can help net you more land. Adding the Augurs back in may make Forbidden Alchemy a better option, but I'll have to test some more.
Syncopate versus Essence Scatter is definitely something I've thought about. Syncopate is good on the play because you will be able to counter 2 drops, but it sucks when you are on the draw. I typically remove it if I am on the draw in G2 or G3. I'm tempted to drop the Syncopates and just add another Verdict and Terminus, to be honest.
Finally, I don't completely agree that Liliana is *bad* in control. I think that is an over-generalization, and I believe Bant Auras will be big part of the upcoming meta. Liliana will be quite good in that matchup, as well as control. That being said, I do agree she is mediocre against many aggro decks in the format and may be better served in the sideboard.
Let me just add that I am NOT trying to argue here in anything I'm saying. I'm just trying to point out my thought process in why I think/thought a card was good in the deck. If you disagree, please let me know your thinking. I'm perfectly happy if you just say, I understand where you're going, but you should think about a/b/c, etc., because they are really better in that slot.
Went undefeated again, but lots of new players and some of the good players were gone (so not that impressive IMHO). Pilfered plans worked well. When voice hits the field, think twice becomes a draw 2 cards for 3UU. Pilfered costs less and also helps the mill plan. When RIP hits the field (good vs reanimator, aristocrats, and decks playing voice -- voice is rampant in my meta), think twice is no longer draw and is instead expensive cycling. The downside is that RIP turns off cryptic incursion.
I was happy overall, but I think I'll sideboard one RIP and add a dissipate mainboard. Additionally, I think I'll drop a syncopate for Gideon, Champion of Justice (I'll probably put the second oblivion ring in mainboard and Gideon in the sideboard). Several players were playing pithing needle to deal with drownyards, so I think the additional beatdown threat will be useful against them (but I may play entreat the angels instead).
Well, I really was looking for suggestions when I posted. I'm not sure why the tone of my post set you off so much--I thought I was clear that I was asking for suggestions because my *posted* deck--based off fairly recent Esper walkers lists--did not seem feasible in the aggro environment and I thought there was room for improvement. I mean, why else would I have posted? I wanted to improve the matchup against aggro in particular.
Anyway, my list started from a survey of all the recent Esper lists appearing in the top 16 of tournaments, so I'm a bit puzzled by the random cards statement. There is an incredible variety of lists, unlike UWR control, which I've typically been playing successfully competitively. I was hoping to build a solid Esper walkers list--one list with the Walkers did not play Augurs, so I was experimenting with taking them out. I had run Soorani's original Walkers list a month or two ago and it ran ok, but the meta has changed a bit.
I agree that my list may improve with 2-3 Augurs added to the deck, perhaps bumping Tamiyo and Liliana to the SB. Or, add more sweepers. I'm curious to see how that might work in Esper.
I'm not sure how you use Far//Away, but I typically use it to remove two of my opponent's creatures from the table. Obviously, it can be used on your own creatures too if you are playing more, but you seem to imply that it shouldn't be played in a Walkers creature-less version. That seems a bit odd to me. Even Soorani played Far//Away in his Walkers version.
As for Think Twice, if you are playing Terminus in multiples, I'm not sure why you think Think Twice is not a reasonable choice? All the Esper lists playing multiple Terminus are playing it, and it gives you the opportunity to miracle a Terminus on the opponent's turn. Even though I am not completely a draw-go deck, early on in the game you will find time when you are not casting something and Think Twice can help net you more land. Adding the Augurs back in may make Forbidden Alchemy a better option, but I'll have to test some more.
Syncopate versus Essence Scatter is definitely something I've thought about. Syncopate is good on the play because you will be able to counter 2 drops, but it sucks when you are on the draw. I typically remove it if I am on the draw in G2 or G3. I'm tempted to drop the Syncopates and just add another Verdict and Terminus, to be honest.
Finally, I don't completely agree that Liliana is *bad* in control. I think that is an over-generalization, and I believe Bant Auras will be big part of the upcoming meta. Liliana will be quite good in that matchup, as well as control. That being said, I do agree she is mediocre against many aggro decks in the format and may be better served in the sideboard.
Let me just add that I am NOT trying to argue here in anything I'm saying. I'm just trying to point out my thought process in why I think/thought a card was good in the deck. If you disagree, please let me know your thinking. I'm perfectly happy if you just say, I understand where you're going, but you should think about a/b/c, etc., because they are really better in that slot.
The other guy said I wasn't being constructive, that's why I wrote such a long post.
Of course you don't agree with what I said, that was my point. I knew you wouldn't, even if I wrote a full page. All I can say is that if you find the deck not being competitive, and you're attempts at tweaking fail, you should start with a more stock list before giving up, or thinking Esper isn't viable.
To understand what I mean when I said "random, think of a guy at burger restaurant. They have the pre-made sandwiches, which have been on the menu for ages, and are the local favorites. Instead of ordering those, he looks over all the toppings and makes his own. He doesn't take A-1 Peppercorn burger, and substitute pepperjack for cheddar, he takes his favorite toppings from everything and puts it on 1 burger. That's what a lot of lists look like to me, and the reason I suggested using specific lists that succeeded at the PTQ level and higher as a reference point.
Sorry if I came across as harsh, that wasn't my intention.
EDIT: I can't help myself...Far // Away is ran in place of sweepers 4-6. Think Twice -> Terminus isn't an argument for running it. You should run Think Twice if you're running a Draw-Go version.
4) Are people still running Jace, Memory Adept as a sideboard win-con? How are other people doing with it? It's been outstanding for me, but I want a few more data points.
This got me thinking big-time. In my sigged list, do you guys think that those two Syncopates should be Dissipates?
I have a Jace MA in my MD and often find myself looking for it to finish the game. I really like it, but I would never SB another in for an "alternate" win con. The whole point of doing that is threat diversity. Why beef up a strategy that gets hosed by the same SB cards your oppo is putting in to stop your main path to victory. Witchbane Orb hoses you completely that way. If you are going a different way, then you have to go a different way. For us that's Dorks: Tops would be Aetherling, then Blood Baron and I think you can make a decent argument for Angel of Serenity. I haven't given any of the M14 dorks consideration yet, but TBH I took one good read through of the spoiler, threw up in my mouth a little and decided it wasn't even worth rereading. What a pile of sh!t.
I think Syncopate is a good card, but challenges you more than Dissipate does. I run two of each in the MD if my oppo is aggro and on the play I side out Syncopate because it won't ever be fast enough to accomplish anything. *sometimes* I catch someone tapping too much mana early on and Sync for one, but usually I'd rather have something else. Dissipate is a hard counter, but again a bit pricey. I am strongly leaning towards Essence Scatter in the Sync slots.
To understand what I mean when I said "random, think of a guy at burger restaurant. They have the pre-made sandwiches, which have been on the menu for ages, and are the local favorites. Instead of ordering those, he looks over all the toppings and makes his own. He doesn't take A-1 Peppercorn burger, and substitute pepperjack for cheddar, he takes his favorite toppings from everything and puts it on 1 burger. That's what a lot of lists look like to me, and the reason I suggested using specific lists that succeeded at the PTQ level and higher as a reference point.
EDIT: I can't help myself...Far // Away is ran in place of sweepers 4-6. Think Twice -> Terminus isn't an argument for running it. You should run Think Twice if you're running a Draw-Go version.
That was the exactly same point I was going to make. While I love the analogy I don't think it's going to be very clear to someone who doesn't already "get it." Please forgive me, but I will try to help a little.
When Murdox talks about looking at a bunch of lists and synthesizing something out of them he sacrifices any balance those decks have designed into them and compromises their stability. It can be a very subtle thing, like using a land base from a deck light on black cards but adding Liliana (though I've no idea why you would) or other black cards from another list; or cutting Think Twice in a deck running 24 land which will be enough to cost you ground in the early game and with all the aggro decks out there that's usually enough to put you too far behind. In the current meta -- and this is true of all control decks back to Brian Weissman The Deck -- are about balance. You can't just cut and paste from disparate lists (that were successful in different metagames) and expect to maintain that balance.
Re: Far//Away vs Terminus. I run both. I see Far//Away as a point removal spell with a kicker bonus and try to hold out for the bonus whenever I can. I never hesitate to use it against a single threat early on though. Last Night I used it on T3 to break a Paladin soulbond pairing and then killed the other dork the next turn. Terminus is in my deck because you need 6 sweepers and the Miracle bonus makes it better than Planar Cleansing.
My FNM:
I went 3-1 last night, albeit not in a terribly competitive room. I beat three aggro decks quite easily (2x Boros, 1 x GW) and made a brutal mulligan error against a good Jund deck. I was very pleased with the way the deck played against the aggro decks. The GW guy got a 3x Voice draw in G3, but I handled it with ease and cruised, winning the game at 30+ life.
The mistake in the Jund match-up was keenly felt in G1 when I made thee mistake if keeping a hand with 2 land, but 0 Think 2X or Azorious Charm. I didn't hit land 3 until he played Thragtusk and I was well and truly boned by then. I won the next game easily, but G3 was again slow mana (two land opener, but with two draw spells) combined with simply drawing the wrong things at the wrong time. I thought I had stabilized around T7 when he forced me into tapping out and leaving an opening for Sire of Insanity. Instead of one of my three Renounces I drew Revelation. That's the drawback with control. Sometimes you have the wrong answers to the questions you are asked, and I answered my mulligan decision incorrectly in G1 and my deck answered the Sire question incorrectly in G3.
Hits and Misses:
Blood Baron - I tested this last night a saw it a few times. It wasn't terrible and I think I may have held it too long in one game, but I'm not sure it it wins a MD slot for me. As long as my meta continues like it is now it will be hard to cut though as its abilities were relevant in all four of my match-ups.
Crypt Incursion - All star! I run one MD and one SB and am quite convinced they are the bees knees. Mill strategies often stabilize at low life and you then have to worry about your oppo sandbagging things to overwhelm you and just waiting for Revelation to make a little breathing space. Last night I cast Incursion 4 times with a life gains ranging from 21 - 39.
My play skills - definite miss last night. Not only did I screw up the mulligans against Jund, but I cut the Planar Cleansings from my board before the tourney leaving me with few answers to planeswalkers, artifacts and enchantments. *facepalm*
/M
Edit: For those of you who don't know who Brian Weissman is, you can thank him for designing and playing the first ever genuine control deck in M:tG. You can see The Deck and get some notes on it here.
I agree about M14 (it's a wasteland for almost every deck in standard at the moment), but I think fiendslayer paladin might be a good replacement for augur. It doesn't cantrip/scry like augur, but it is guaranteed to gain life if it blocks (due to first strike, though I guess skullcrack could be used) and it eats cards like voice while dodging all the bad removal (doom blade, putrify, dreadbore, pillar, helix, searing spear, etc) that some of our worst matches carry. Vs control matchups, fiendslayer can be swapped for barons and aetherlings. Mutavault is another great win condition for esper (it'll probably replace drownyard). Aside from those (and possible lifebane zombie or millstone), there isn't much for an esper player.
I agree about cryptic incursion. I played a naya human player who sideboarded in RIP because cryptic is so threatening in that matchup.
If you're having problems with jund, play 4 appetite for brains. It catches almost all jund's win conditions and keeps their resilient threats off the field.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Here's my post-M14 list for reference:
4 Godless Shrine
4 Watery Grave
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Think Twice
3 Far // Away
2 Augur of Bolas
2 Renounce the Guilds
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Dissipate
2 Essence Scatter
1 Aetherling
2 Terminus
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Dissipate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Crypt Incursion
3 Duress
which has been performing well. See, the things that Doom Blade doesn't hit are all hit by Renounce the Guilds, so there's no point in playing bad cards in the deck.
Sig by Ace of Spades studio at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=451747
I'm a child playing an adult's card game.
Esper CONTROL: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10441008&postcount=239
I'm a Rules Advisor. Woo-hoo.
Gamer's Armory in Raleigh, NC. Best bad store ever.
Almost all those things die to Renounce -- which in the current meta is superior to both Blade and Warped. And Nighthawk is not a huge threat at all. It hits for two, gives the bad guy something we don't care about because for us his life total starts at 60 anyway and dies to half our deck. I am pretty happy when my oppo taps three for a bear. Certainly not as scary as Champion (growing bear) and BTE (exponential bear).
That said, play what you are comfortable with. If my meta suddenly fills up with black creatures then I will probably go with Warped too. On the other hand, if 4 out of 5 decks continue to be Naya, G/W and mono-R I will run Blade. There is a point around turn 5-8 when you have used up all your point removal and have few cards in hand and often low life total. I'd hate to have my oppo drop something scary (4/4 or bigger) and then I topdeck Warped and watch him kill me.
/M
I run four main right now, and four is the right number. Other matchups, they come out for more counterspells.
Has anyone tested Reap Intellect? Or Quicken?
- Howard Shultz
CURRENTLY PLAYING
UWR: American Control
I'm not a fan of reap intellect. By the time you have 5+ land, it's probably not a great play compared to other things in your deck.
Sorry Hajile, I am not looking for what you think of the cards, I am asking people who have tested it to give it a review.
- Howard Shultz
CURRENTLY PLAYING
UWR: American Control
I don't like speaking in terms of absolutes -- especially if something has no absolutely true answer.
That said, I have tested the card, but by the time I had 5 mana, I'd rather be casting a verdict, planeswalker, revelation, or similar. Once again, everything in magic is relative. If you built your entire deck around it, then it would be the best draw (whether or not that deck would be competitive would be better is another thing).
It's not good.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
You should be able to tell if some cards are bad or not instantly, those two are.
The problems I found:
1. I felt too slow for aggro decks, although I had some horrendous luck with the buddy lands. I'm almost thinking I'd rather up the Supreme Verdict or Terminus count even more maindeck.
2. The lands drove me crazy. I don't know how many games I started with only buddy lands and did not draw any non-buddy land for several turns. When you have all your colors you don't want to mulligan, but against the fast red based decks you almost have to.
3. I went 1-2 against "control." I lost to Bant control by failing to draw answers to the flash creatures and not having a counter when I needed it. I split against UWR control/flash. One game I lost by getting only 1 Drownyard! total in 2 games. The second I won with Liliana and the other Walkers in one game, and milled him in the other after sideboarding. The burn from UWR is tough though as it can dispatch our Walkers fairly easily.
I don't discount the fact that I had some bad luck last night, but against competitive decks I believe I was 4-7 on the night. Not good.
Decklist:
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Azorius Charm
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dissipate
3 Far // Away
2 Syncopate
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Think Twice
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Godless Shrine
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Watery Grave
2 Duress
1 Evil Twin
2 Negate
3 Rest in Peace
2 Renounce the Guilds
1 Dispel
1 Aetherling
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Jace, Memory Adept
In place of the one Island, I have also tried 1 Cavern (to get our big guy out), 1 Vault of the Archangel, and a fourth Drownyard. Undecided as to what is best.
I have also tried several things in the Devour Flesh spot, and I'm not sure which is best maindeck--Warped Physique, Renounce the Guilds? Devour Flesh seems like the best so far.
Finally, I'm also tempted to drop one Jace, Architect for a Memory Adept main, or somehow fitting one Memory Adept in there.
I either 1-for-1 until revelade, or I do nothing until t4 supreme, then procede to 1-for-1 until they run out of gas, then procede to win with Aetherling, or sideboard wins to get around the pithing needle
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
2x Godless Shrine
3x Isolated Chapel
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Reliquary Tower
//Creatures: 4
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Aetherling
//Planeswalkers: 2
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Detention Sphere
//Sorceries: 4
4x Supreme Verdict
//Instants: 24
1x Dimir Charm
1x Renounce the Guilds
1x Unsummon
2x Far // Away
2x Essence Scatter
2x Dissipate
2x Syncopate
3x Azorius Charm
3x Warped Physique
3x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
1x Notion Thief
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1x Glaring Spotlight
2x Pithing Needle
2x Negate
2x Cremate
2x Purify the Grave
3x Terminus
the miser's unsummon is because its 1 mana, and doesn't have that annoying morbid clause tragic slip has, and wrecks angel of serenity. dimir charm is worth the singleton slot and does lots of work, have considered upping to 2 of them. everything else should be self-explanatory. in the board, notion vs. any heavy card draw deck, G-dad and baron against pithing needle, pithing needle vs. planeswalkers, maze's end, and tech-lands. negate vs. control, terminus vs. aggro, graveyard hate for graveyard-based decks, spotlight vs. hexproof just to turn on targetted removal.w
Of course it's feasible. People are winning PTQs and the like with it everywhere. Here's one from my area, for example:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56893
and this was posted on SCG:
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/53947
You just have to:
1.) Not play too many neat cards, or things you want to "try out".
2.) Not suck, or course.
In your list you have Liliana and Tamiyo. The original successful planeswalker build was running 4x Sorin and 4x Lingering Souls. People have cut 2x Sorin for 2x Jace and done well, but all the rest of these planeswalkers don't belong. Jace get's the free pass because of Aristocrats.
I'll ignore the cute stuff and focus on the substantive stuff. What I mean to say when I say "feasible" is that the meta can be very harsh to Esper if you start running up against a lot of fast aggro decks and flash decks. Anyway, you think Liliana and Tamiyo should be cut at this point out of Esper? I know Tamiyo works very well in UWR control (something I've had a lot of experience with), and 1 Liliana seems good for at least a sac effect because she is great against control. I may just have had a bad night of drawing--I'll be trying again later tonight.
You have to consciously navigate the game to a point where you tap out on your turn and lose a fight over an irrelevant spell, have the opponent tap out on there turn for an uncounterable revelation(usually the correct play since control mirrors are very rarely punishing), then you untap, and Reap them of all their relevant cards. It's basically the perfect 1-of if you expect to play the control mirror.
Edit:
Good lord, posts like this are horrible. Linking decklists are well and good and noting what's played in said decklists is also well and good, but leaving it at that is bland and not conducive to creating good quality on the competitive boards. Say something substantive like WHY lily and tamiyo are don't belong. While it may feel beneath you, if you think it's obvious and should be obvious to everyone else, you probably don't need to bother posting here. Otherwise, try to actually add to the discussion.
"You're wrong"=Bad.
You're wrong, here's why"=Good and helpful.
I'll try to give an example. Tamiyo has a negligible affect vs. most of the field and doesn't contribute to your overall gameplan because here abilities are low impact and narrow against the threats you're generally going to be facing. Depending on your build, the gameplan is generally to find answers, and live long enough to chain big revs until you can kill with drownyard(or your opponent scoops, whatever), with a backup plan of killing with sorin+tokens. Tamiyo at best is often a bad detention sphere. She's fine in control mirrors and ok against midrange decks, but horrible against agro and generally a win more card most of the time.
Liliana on the other hand is a fine card, but you need to build your deck more specifically to take advantage of her abilities and generally speaking, the 4 lingering souls is often, if not always better. She's very good in the control mirror however and drastically goes up in value with the more walkers you have on board and the later into the game you are assuming the board isn't full of dudes(in which case you aren't winning anyways without a board wipe more like as not.
Every page of every thread for a Control deck has a post that read: "X Control deck isn't competitive for Y Reason." Followed by a list that has a bunch of random cards that don't appear in any successful decks.
Instead of ignoring it like I normally would, I commented that that's not true, and pointed out decklists that have won PTQs recently. There's more to be gleaned from those 2 decklists than I could fit in a single post. I thought it was pretty constructive.
How am I supposed to explain why Tamiyo isn't a good choice? It' a powerful card, and people want to run 1 of each of these planeswalkers because they're all sweet. If you're newer you're statistically going to be better off starting with netdecks and going from there. The fact that people always start throwing in the randoms is why noone takes these forums seriously.
To elaborate on what I wrote earlier, Tamiyo only got play in UWR, because that initial list that won in the SCG Open wanted to combo it with Assemble the Legion. The card is great when you have a weakness to cards like Thragtusk, or you're running 6+ sweepers. I like Tamiyo with a pile of sweepers because she bridges the gap between Supreme Verdict and Terminus and can tap down the follow-up play, making following sweepers always 2-for-1's. None of these things are happening in Esper, though. Sweepers are being cut down in numbers, and even if the real threat was the Junk decks, Ætherling is just plain better.
Liliana is bad in Control, period, and only has been played when 1) UB Control from 2012 needed to kill Geist of Saint Traft, and 2) Solar Flare wanted a Sun Titan target as well as a discard outlet. A control deck is naturally going to be the last to empty their hand, and you end up discarding removal spells to charge up Liliana, who requires 2 doom blades to be binned in order to get 1 edict. You could also bin lands, but who are we kidding...this is a revelation deck. Thing is, even with me saying that, someone will come and say that they love Liliana and she's a great card...yet Control is obviously in a bad spot right now because their deck with Liliana sucks. What do you say to that?
On top of that, if Murdock compares the lists that won PTQs, he'll notice a pile of differences with the bottom half of his curve. Those decks completely abandoned Think Twice, which is a card that's only good in Draw-Go decks. The only virtue of the card is the instant-speed, which allows you to the flexibility of choosing whether to counter a spell, kill a creature, or draw a card each turn. If I was him, I'd replace them with Augur to make the planeswalkers stronger. "But Augur puts my planeswalkers on the bottom!" When people say that, I just have no comment anymore. You can only argue on the internet so much. He also has Far // Away, in a deck with no creatures to return to his hand, but already loaded up on 4 and 5 mana plays like Lingering Souls (essentially occupies those turns) and 5 sweepers to deal with the board. Those slots would be better as Doom Blade variants, although if he adds Augurs an argument could be made. But would it be right, when the successful decklists skipped this obvious powerhouse completely?
There's also the issue of running 4x counterspells in a superfriends deck. The other lists ran 2. He'll see it when he compares them. Although, what won't be apparent is that Syncopate is a crappy magic card. Essence Scatter is better. I'd either cut the 2x Syncopate for 2x Essence Scatter, or cut them both and run 2x Dissipate.
I suppose if the post had been a question on theory, I'd have loved to answer. But when people complain about Control not being able to win, the most obvious thing is for them to copy a deck that does win and learn to pilot it.
EDIT: Also, he tested on what appears to be MODO 2-mans. That's basically 90% aggro. Not remotely realistic. You have to pony up cash and time for Daily events to get any practice on MODO that's relevant.
Several points of note.
1) If we see more AEtherling, then we will have a hilarious choice when we board in the mirror: Do we board out our AEtherlings for Pithing Needles or for something else, like more cantrips to hit lands? He might also be boarding out his 'lings for Needles and as such your needles will be dead cards...
2) What Tibalt is saying here is what I've been trying to drill into the heads of half my LGS that thinks Esper is bad without Snaps. You can just 1-for-1 people, maybe 2-for-1 with Wraths, until you hit a Revelation. You don't need fancy card advantage tricks and 2-for-1s all day long.
3) I still don't know if there's a good reason NOT to run both Drownyard and AEtherling main. You need land in the deck anyway... If there is and I'm being stupid, explain for me why. Please.
4) Are people still running Jace, Memory Adept as a sideboard win-con? How are other people doing with it? It's been outstanding for me, but I want a few more data points.
This got me thinking big-time. In my sigged list, do you guys think that those two Syncopates should be Dissipates?
Sig by Ace of Spades studio at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=451747
I'm a child playing an adult's card game.
Esper CONTROL: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10441008&postcount=239
I'm a Rules Advisor. Woo-hoo.
Gamer's Armory in Raleigh, NC. Best bad store ever.
2x Nephalia Drownyard is basically free. You may never use it, but at the very least put in 2 Ghost Quarter or basic lands if you don't want to run them. You only have 2 black spells in your entire deck, 12 black sources would be fine. I'd cut 2x shocklands for whatever you decide. Note that in the mirror, you only have 2 win conditions maindeck without Drownyard. What if you lose a counter war and the other is on the bottom 3?
I think you only want Jace at all if you run Drownyard. Maybe that's just me, though. I run 4x Drownyard, and 1 Memory Adept main and another in the sideboard. A single mill with the Jace and you can race almost any bomb in the mirror with 2x Drownyards on board.
Yeah. Considering you're not running planeswalkers, I'd think you'd want 4 counterspells, even. I'd run 2x Essence Scatter in the place of Doom Blade, but I'm sure most people will want to run it since it just came back. Problem with Doom Blade is that the green creatures nowadays will 2 for 1 your removal spell, whether it's Emissary, Voice, Thragtusk, Acidic Slime, etc...Essence Scatter is also a key card to beat the Restoration Angel UWR decks. I even have an extra copy in the sideboard. Once again, it stops Snapcaster from being a 2 for 1. Another option to cut is either the Oblivion Rings, or Renounce the Guilds, since they're mostly overlap. I think I'd move the Renounce to the sideboard, that's a narrow card to be running maindeck. Basically everything not named Domri Rade will be dealt with easier by Essence Scatter than Renounce.
On another note, if those Sin Collectors are for the mirror, Duress is just better. Also, more Terminus is way better than Sever the Bloodline. Sever is a 4 mana sorcery speed Doom Blade variant that's better suited for limited than constructed. I ran it for a long time and I don't think I ever flashed it back. Appetite for Brains is probably better than both, for you, as well. In these Ætherling mirrors your worried about, you can strip theirs even if the have Cavern.
Also, Rest in Peace is pretty outmoded by Crypt Incursion, or even Cremate, honestly. Reanimator doesn't beat you because of Unburial Rites, it's the early hate bears and then 5 drops that will break you. At least Crypt incursion or Cremate, or even Purify the Grave will time walk them when you play it, that buys critical time early game, since that's a turn that they could be slamming another fatty (They wouldn't play Rites if you have out RIP). I run just 1x Crypt Incursion as hate, since I have 4x Dissipate after boarding, but a Cremate or Purify would be easier to hold up. Unburial Rites is a turn 6 or 7 play, which is easy to handle, at least if you run 3x Dissipate + 2x Snapcaster maindeck like I do. Even without that, you don't lose those games once you cast Revelation for more than 2, normally. The games where they cast Rites early are the rare occasions where they get good mills and don't have a 5 drop in hand.
I don't understand the Blood Barons, either, but I understand that it's a interesting card. I think putting the last 2 copies of Terminus in it's place would basically make any Aristocrats deck cry when you faced it, though. the card doesn't seem like it has any other applications. Blind Obedience or something would be better against Aggro, as would the extra Terminus, I'd think. Ghor-Clan Rampager and Searing Spear blow out the 5-mana Baron pretty bad.
One last thing. With your list being draw-go, you've got no excuse outside of money problems to not be running 4x Revelation. The Superfriends version have another form of card advantage, but a draw-go version has to cast Revelations to do anything.
One more last thing. If you're playing Draw-Go, Think Twice couldn't be anything but a 4-of. It's like a Leyline that lets you pay 2U to draw a card once per turn. The perfect mana dump. You also will find that Revelation is hard to play with if you don't concentrate on always hitting land drops. With so many sweepers, you're better off taking damage early and drawing lands instead of casting Doom Blade just to get 2-for-1'd. Running six sweepers in your version only makes this more true.
Take all my comments with a grain of salt but mull them over, because I feel pretty strongly about them. I dont mean to imply "pretty much this", but Cipher's points, having been explained, are accurate. I am just voicing that I have found the same results with planeswalkers like Tamiyo and Liliana or augur and syncopate (god I remember how much I hate syncopate, and how much I used to hate augur for moving cards out of my grasp)
The truth that I have found about Augur of bolas seems to be that if you are putting cards at the bottom it is a card that can be seen again later in the game with the amount of draw options this deck has available to it, so that argument is taken with a grain of salt. Truth be told the cards that augur usually digs for are the ones that keep you in the game in conjunction with the 1/3 body that soaks up ground damage, and it is a minor card with potential impact against non-aggro decks unless it draws you the revelation or counter you need for a specific spell.
With walkers like jace and sorin, they are played in multiples so you can dig into them in the case of sending one to the bottom with Augur's effect (specifically relating to the understanding of the "Augur is giving me time to see other copies of that card later" psychology behind playing Augur and not playing augur). There is a question that players may or may not have asked themselves when it comes to "But Augur puts my planeswalkers on the bottom!" reasoning, and that is "would you have gotten to a position where you could play that walker without full risk of a blowout without having played said augur"
There are linear frames of thinking that restrict play capabilities, and I would venture a guess that this is a big one as far as success with the deck. The luck factor is obviously relevant, but the shock value of seeing a power card slip out of your reach puts some players into "tunnel vision" and most dont allow themselves to see the possibilities of surviving to find another copy of the card later.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
4-0-1 with a tournament win.
first match was bant hexproof.
second match was naya blitz.
third match was junk tokens.
fourth match was jund but we decided to draw. i was sick of playing against green decks.
all of my matches i played were 2-1. the first 2 matches i lost game 1, sideboarded in my aggro hate and crushed games 2 and 3.
vs. tokens i won game 1, drug out game 2 and lost due to not finding revelade. game 3 i topped deck repeated board wipes until i resolve agent smith, swing while blocking advent of the wurm. resolve obzedat and proceed to repeadetly flicker both in a complicated manner until i won.
Well, I really was looking for suggestions when I posted. I'm not sure why the tone of my post set you off so much--I thought I was clear that I was asking for suggestions because my *posted* deck--based off fairly recent Esper walkers lists--did not seem feasible in the aggro environment and I thought there was room for improvement. I mean, why else would I have posted? I wanted to improve the matchup against aggro in particular.
Anyway, my list started from a survey of all the recent Esper lists appearing in the top 16 of tournaments, so I'm a bit puzzled by the random cards statement. There is an incredible variety of lists, unlike UWR control, which I've typically been playing successfully competitively. I was hoping to build a solid Esper walkers list--one list with the Walkers did not play Augurs, so I was experimenting with taking them out. I had run Soorani's original Walkers list a month or two ago and it ran ok, but the meta has changed a bit.
I agree that my list may improve with 2-3 Augurs added to the deck, perhaps bumping Tamiyo and Liliana to the SB. Or, add more sweepers. I'm curious to see how that might work in Esper.
I'm not sure how you use Far//Away, but I typically use it to remove two of my opponent's creatures from the table. Obviously, it can be used on your own creatures too if you are playing more, but you seem to imply that it shouldn't be played in a Walkers creature-less version. That seems a bit odd to me. Even Soorani played Far//Away in his Walkers version.
As for Think Twice, if you are playing Terminus in multiples, I'm not sure why you think Think Twice is not a reasonable choice? All the Esper lists playing multiple Terminus are playing it, and it gives you the opportunity to miracle a Terminus on the opponent's turn. Even though I am not completely a draw-go deck, early on in the game you will find time when you are not casting something and Think Twice can help net you more land. Adding the Augurs back in may make Forbidden Alchemy a better option, but I'll have to test some more.
Syncopate versus Essence Scatter is definitely something I've thought about. Syncopate is good on the play because you will be able to counter 2 drops, but it sucks when you are on the draw. I typically remove it if I am on the draw in G2 or G3. I'm tempted to drop the Syncopates and just add another Verdict and Terminus, to be honest.
Finally, I don't completely agree that Liliana is *bad* in control. I think that is an over-generalization, and I believe Bant Auras will be big part of the upcoming meta. Liliana will be quite good in that matchup, as well as control. That being said, I do agree she is mediocre against many aggro decks in the format and may be better served in the sideboard.
Let me just add that I am NOT trying to argue here in anything I'm saying. I'm just trying to point out my thought process in why I think/thought a card was good in the deck. If you disagree, please let me know your thinking. I'm perfectly happy if you just say, I understand where you're going, but you should think about a/b/c, etc., because they are really better in that slot.
3 augur of bolas
2 blood baron of vizkopa
instants(20):
2 renounce the guilds
2 far//away
2 warped physique
1 devour flesh
2 azorius charm
2 sphinx's revelation
1 cryptic incursion
2 syncopate
1 dissipate
1 essence scatter
22 lands
4 nephalia drownyards
planeswalkers(4):
2 jace, architect of thought
1 tamiyo, the moon sage
sorceries & enchant(5):
4 supreme verdict
3 pilfered plans
1 oblivion ring
2 rest in peace
1 dissipate
1 jace, memory adept
2 notion thief
1 dispel
2 negate
1 oblivion ring
2 terminus
1 cryptic incursion
2 appetite for brains
2 aetherling
Went undefeated again, but lots of new players and some of the good players were gone (so not that impressive IMHO). Pilfered plans worked well. When voice hits the field, think twice becomes a draw 2 cards for 3UU. Pilfered costs less and also helps the mill plan. When RIP hits the field (good vs reanimator, aristocrats, and decks playing voice -- voice is rampant in my meta), think twice is no longer draw and is instead expensive cycling. The downside is that RIP turns off cryptic incursion.
I was happy overall, but I think I'll sideboard one RIP and add a dissipate mainboard. Additionally, I think I'll drop a syncopate for Gideon, Champion of Justice (I'll probably put the second oblivion ring in mainboard and Gideon in the sideboard). Several players were playing pithing needle to deal with drownyards, so I think the additional beatdown threat will be useful against them (but I may play entreat the angels instead).
The other guy said I wasn't being constructive, that's why I wrote such a long post.
Of course you don't agree with what I said, that was my point. I knew you wouldn't, even if I wrote a full page. All I can say is that if you find the deck not being competitive, and you're attempts at tweaking fail, you should start with a more stock list before giving up, or thinking Esper isn't viable.
To understand what I mean when I said "random, think of a guy at burger restaurant. They have the pre-made sandwiches, which have been on the menu for ages, and are the local favorites. Instead of ordering those, he looks over all the toppings and makes his own. He doesn't take A-1 Peppercorn burger, and substitute pepperjack for cheddar, he takes his favorite toppings from everything and puts it on 1 burger. That's what a lot of lists look like to me, and the reason I suggested using specific lists that succeeded at the PTQ level and higher as a reference point.
Sorry if I came across as harsh, that wasn't my intention.
EDIT: I can't help myself...Far // Away is ran in place of sweepers 4-6. Think Twice -> Terminus isn't an argument for running it. You should run Think Twice if you're running a Draw-Go version.
I have a Jace MA in my MD and often find myself looking for it to finish the game. I really like it, but I would never SB another in for an "alternate" win con. The whole point of doing that is threat diversity. Why beef up a strategy that gets hosed by the same SB cards your oppo is putting in to stop your main path to victory. Witchbane Orb hoses you completely that way. If you are going a different way, then you have to go a different way. For us that's Dorks: Tops would be Aetherling, then Blood Baron and I think you can make a decent argument for Angel of Serenity. I haven't given any of the M14 dorks consideration yet, but TBH I took one good read through of the spoiler, threw up in my mouth a little and decided it wasn't even worth rereading. What a pile of sh!t.
I think Syncopate is a good card, but challenges you more than Dissipate does. I run two of each in the MD if my oppo is aggro and on the play I side out Syncopate because it won't ever be fast enough to accomplish anything. *sometimes* I catch someone tapping too much mana early on and Sync for one, but usually I'd rather have something else. Dissipate is a hard counter, but again a bit pricey. I am strongly leaning towards Essence Scatter in the Sync slots.
That was the exactly same point I was going to make. While I love the analogy I don't think it's going to be very clear to someone who doesn't already "get it." Please forgive me, but I will try to help a little.
When Murdox talks about looking at a bunch of lists and synthesizing something out of them he sacrifices any balance those decks have designed into them and compromises their stability. It can be a very subtle thing, like using a land base from a deck light on black cards but adding Liliana (though I've no idea why you would) or other black cards from another list; or cutting Think Twice in a deck running 24 land which will be enough to cost you ground in the early game and with all the aggro decks out there that's usually enough to put you too far behind. In the current meta -- and this is true of all control decks back to Brian Weissman The Deck -- are about balance. You can't just cut and paste from disparate lists (that were successful in different metagames) and expect to maintain that balance.
Re: Far//Away vs Terminus. I run both. I see Far//Away as a point removal spell with a kicker bonus and try to hold out for the bonus whenever I can. I never hesitate to use it against a single threat early on though. Last Night I used it on T3 to break a Paladin soulbond pairing and then killed the other dork the next turn. Terminus is in my deck because you need 6 sweepers and the Miracle bonus makes it better than Planar Cleansing.
My FNM:
I went 3-1 last night, albeit not in a terribly competitive room. I beat three aggro decks quite easily (2x Boros, 1 x GW) and made a brutal mulligan error against a good Jund deck. I was very pleased with the way the deck played against the aggro decks. The GW guy got a 3x Voice draw in G3, but I handled it with ease and cruised, winning the game at 30+ life.
The mistake in the Jund match-up was keenly felt in G1 when I made thee mistake if keeping a hand with 2 land, but 0 Think 2X or Azorious Charm. I didn't hit land 3 until he played Thragtusk and I was well and truly boned by then. I won the next game easily, but G3 was again slow mana (two land opener, but with two draw spells) combined with simply drawing the wrong things at the wrong time. I thought I had stabilized around T7 when he forced me into tapping out and leaving an opening for Sire of Insanity. Instead of one of my three Renounces I drew Revelation. That's the drawback with control. Sometimes you have the wrong answers to the questions you are asked, and I answered my mulligan decision incorrectly in G1 and my deck answered the Sire question incorrectly in G3.
Hits and Misses:
Blood Baron - I tested this last night a saw it a few times. It wasn't terrible and I think I may have held it too long in one game, but I'm not sure it it wins a MD slot for me. As long as my meta continues like it is now it will be hard to cut though as its abilities were relevant in all four of my match-ups.
Crypt Incursion - All star! I run one MD and one SB and am quite convinced they are the bees knees. Mill strategies often stabilize at low life and you then have to worry about your oppo sandbagging things to overwhelm you and just waiting for Revelation to make a little breathing space. Last night I cast Incursion 4 times with a life gains ranging from 21 - 39.
My play skills - definite miss last night. Not only did I screw up the mulligans against Jund, but I cut the Planar Cleansings from my board before the tourney leaving me with few answers to planeswalkers, artifacts and enchantments. *facepalm*
/M
Edit: For those of you who don't know who Brian Weissman is, you can thank him for designing and playing the first ever genuine control deck in M:tG. You can see The Deck and get some notes on it here.
What's your decklist?
I agree about M14 (it's a wasteland for almost every deck in standard at the moment), but I think fiendslayer paladin might be a good replacement for augur. It doesn't cantrip/scry like augur, but it is guaranteed to gain life if it blocks (due to first strike, though I guess skullcrack could be used) and it eats cards like voice while dodging all the bad removal (doom blade, putrify, dreadbore, pillar, helix, searing spear, etc) that some of our worst matches carry. Vs control matchups, fiendslayer can be swapped for barons and aetherlings. Mutavault is another great win condition for esper (it'll probably replace drownyard). Aside from those (and possible lifebane zombie or millstone), there isn't much for an esper player.
I agree about cryptic incursion. I played a naya human player who sideboarded in RIP because cryptic is so threatening in that matchup.
If you're having problems with jund, play 4 appetite for brains. It catches almost all jund's win conditions and keeps their resilient threats off the field.