Because advent of the wurm is not a creature you can grab with domri and is overshadowed by resto angel and huntsmaster. I suppose if your not running huntsmaster then resto is slightly worse than usual.
Either way the two seem to be a naya midrange staple in the 4 slot (looking at naya decks winning events recently)
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Getting back into MTGO maybe, depending on the cost
Because advent of the wurm is not a creature you can grab with domri and is overshadowed by resto angel and huntsmaster. I suppose if your not running huntsmaster then resto is slightly worse than usual.
Either way the two seem to be a naya midrange staple in the 4 slot (looking at naya decks winning events recently)
Yea I suppose I could do a 2/2 split with huntmaster/resto
And then with resto in the main it makes more sense to sideboard a zealous conscripts
Yea I suppose I could do a 2/2 split with huntmaster/resto
And then with resto in the main it makes more sense to sideboard a zealous conscripts
To add to that discussion the Wurm is also susceptible to Abrupt Decay and between Junk Aristocrats, Jund, and Reanimator, it's a card that can make our attack a dead one.
I'm experimenting with 2 Advent of the Wurm and I see it as enough. Just enough to get value but not too much to whiff-out on Domri too much. In this build you either lighten up on spells (2-4 max) or toss out Domri for more spells (like that Naya Midrange that had 14 spells main-board).
Seeing as my meta is actually rather slow I might give {CARD]Aurelia, the Warleader[/CARD] a try as a 1-of. Also Cavern of Souls can go, I have too many creature-types and control is almost non-existent in my meta.
This is my new updated deck list. I feel that having Ruric Thar in the maindeck is actually very viable due to having Pilgrims and Arbor elfs.
I've never ran into a problem with having Ruric stuck in my hand while not having anything else to play. If I do have the 6 mana to drop this fatty on the board its pretty much game over. Since he trumps most blockers, then if they try to remove him with a spell they take huge damage anyways.
I've had a few games where I drop Ruric on turn 4 which is absolutely amazing.
Just watched Kiblers 3-1 a daily beating RG 3 times then losing to Reanimator. His list split 4's on 2 Huntmaster, 2 Resto, 2 Advent. As he said beating red was sort of a given. But once again as people tend to do with the loss to Reanimator they sort of shrug and talk about lines and having a mediocre draw. But watching the games the Reanimator deck didn't have amazing draws either. Rewatching and following the lines wouldn't have won him the games just off the cards we saw played. If he'd taken the more aggressive line he does a bit more damage then his better threats get buried under Angel of Serenity and he doesn't get to get more damage in at the end(the only reason he thought he had a chance).
The matchup for his Huntmaster Resto build is so hard. He's sitting there with a bunch of Selesnya charms when Slime effectively beats him on its own. It didn't happen in the game but if I was the Reanimator opponent I probably wouldn't have even bothered sliming a Ground Seal or Rest in Peace since short of Dragon Kiblers deck did almost absolutely nothing. He was losing 20-0 outside of it.
And that's the thing. So much aggro. If there wasn't I don't even see the list even remotely competitive.
The Deck needs to be doing more earlier to compliment slamming dragon. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but figuring out how to be more aggressive and still keeping the aggro matchup doesn't seem too hard. It starts with Ghor Clan most likely and probably continues with more aggressive potential in 4 drops, or more haste around 2-3. As long as you have sufficient ramp/lands to play Thundermaw there is a lot that can be done in the middle.
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Just watched Kiblers 3-1 a daily beating RG 3 times then losing to Reanimator. His list split 4's on 2 Huntmaster, 2 Resto, 2 Advent. As he said beating red was sort of a given. But once again as people tend to do with the loss to Reanimator they sort of shrug and talk about lines and having a mediocre draw. But watching the games the Reanimator deck didn't have amazing draws either. Rewatching and following the lines wouldn't have won him the games just off the cards we saw played. If he'd taken the more aggressive line he does a bit more damage then his better threats get buried under Angel of Serenity and he doesn't get to get more damage in at the end(the only reason he thought he had a chance).
The matchup for his Huntmaster Resto build is so hard. He's sitting there with a bunch of Selesnya charms when Slime effectively beats him on its own. It didn't happen in the game but if I was the Reanimator opponent I probably wouldn't have even bothered sliming a Ground Seal or Rest in Peace since short of Dragon Kiblers deck did almost absolutely nothing. He was losing 20-0 outside of it.
And that's the thing. So much aggro. If there wasn't I don't even see the list even remotely competitive.
The Deck needs to be doing more earlier to compliment slamming dragon. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but figuring out how to be more aggressive and still keeping the aggro matchup doesn't seem too hard. It starts with Ghor Clan most likely and probably continues with more aggressive potential in 4 drops, or more haste around 2-3. As long as you have sufficient ramp/lands to play Thundermaw there is a lot that can be done in the middle.
I will add that against Reanimator we are at a severe disadvantage, to put it lightly. With an Angel of Serenity as early as Turn 3, we need to be aggressive. I've thought of main-decking Unflinching Courage. It turns any of our threats (outside of a dork) into a deadly threat and on a Voice of Resurgence or Boros Reckoner it's quite deadly.
I took out Thragtusk because it did not serve to stabilize enough against aggro but I agree that the deck needs more removal (if even at instant speed), against Reanimator. Acidic Slime doesn't help by destroying the lands you need to cast your threats.
So you're saying the only way to beat junk reanimator is simply abandon midrange and play blitz?
Since it sounds like when you're saying to simply be more aggressive that's what blitz does. Midrange is supposed to be able to ramp into bigger threats, or be able to control the board with removal, and big creatures (for naya)
I personally don't know what the answer would be, though if you want to play midrange I would suggest trying to combat the primary problem. Losing lands to acidic slime and not being able to do anything about it.
The odds of getting completely blown out by a single Angel of Serenity is unlikely, or if you do get completely blown out by a single Angel. Then you should probably re-think how your deck is built.
So you're saying the only way to beat junk reanimator is simply abandon midrange and play blitz?
Since it sounds like when you're saying to simply be more aggressive that's what blitz does. Midrange is supposed to be able to ramp into bigger threats, or be able to control the board with removal, and big creatures (for naya)
I personally don't know what the answer would be, though if you want to play midrange I would suggest trying to combat the primary problem. Losing lands to acidic slime and not being able to do anything about it.
The odds of getting completely blown out by a single Angel of Serenity is unlikely, or if you do get completely blown out by a single Angel. Then you should probably re-think how your deck is built.
I'm much more dedicated to my Naya Midrange deck than that. I ran it when everyone else was running completely different decks, please do not misinterpret my suggestions, they were for that user alone seeing as he wanted "aggressive" creatures in Naya's colors.
I checked out Junk Reanimator and found the following weaknesses:
2. Rest in Peace - Shuts off Aristocrats and Reanimator shenanigans but come game 2-3 they will alter their deck to not use Reanimator shenanigans. A better hoser against Aristocrats if anything.
3. Pillar of Flame - Shuts down dorks and new lists running Voice of Resurgence. Considering how useful this is against aggro decks in general it is much easier to main-board as a 2-3 of than Electrickery.
I'm much more dedicated to my Naya Midrange deck than that. I ran it when everyone else was running completely different decks, please do not misinterpret my suggestions, they were for that user alone seeing as he wanted "aggressive" creatures in Naya's colors.
I checked out Junk Reanimator and found the following weaknesses:
2. Pillar of Flame - Shuts down dorks and new lists running Voice of Resurgence. Considering how useful this is against aggro decks in general it is much easier to main-board as a 2-3 of than Electrickery.
It wasn't directed at anyone, due to why I didn't quote anyone. Anyways the point of my post way to say. "Look this discussion is turning into an 'aggro' discussion so we should look for ways to beat reanimator besides turning into blitz."
I do agree with your points for the most part. I do really like Pillar in my sideboard for dealing with general reanimator non-sense. Also I think purify the grave should be the card of choice for dealing with reanimate targets. Since it puts them behind a turn, and it can be used to force them to play around it, which can lead to them playing slower and not burning through our lands as quickly.
I don't agree with transitioning to Black at the moment. I don't think we need to splash for black to deal with reanimator. It will make the deck less consistent.
It wasn't directed at anyone, due to why I didn't quote anyone. Anyways the point of my post way to say. "Look this discussion is turning into an 'aggro' discussion so we should look for ways to beat reanimator besides turning into blitz."
I do agree with your points for the most part. I do really like Pillar in my sideboard for dealing with general reanimator non-sense. Also I think purify the grave should be the card of choice for dealing with reanimate targets. Since it puts them behind a turn, and it can be used to force them to play around it, which can lead to them playing slower and not burning through our lands as quickly.
I don't agree with transitioning to Black at the moment. I don't think we need to splash for black to deal with reanimator. It will make the deck less consistent.
The thing is is that they will ramp hard into it if they can't reanimate it and the only way to stop that is to kill their dorks quickly. I find Rest in Peace is more useful against Aristocrats as it shuts off Blood Artist and Morbid Creatures. If the Rest in Peace gets Abrupt Decay'd then it's still served its purpose in exiling their graveyard.
The thing is is that they will ramp hard into it if they can't reanimate it and the only way to stop that is to kill their dorks quickly. I find Rest in Peace is more useful against Aristocrats as it shuts off Blood Artist and Morbid Creatures. If the Rest in Peace gets Abrupt Decay'd then it's still served its purpose in exiling their graveyard.
Yes but that is what we want them to do. Ramp, play a fair game. If they can't just keep re-animating stuff out of the graveyard they're forced to play a fair game. Which is where our deck should excel at.
We have the option to ramp as well. We also have the option to simply blowup their dorks with Bonfire, Domri -2, Electrickery, etc. Its much easier for us to deal with a fair game then it is to deal with re-animated targets.
If this deck cannot deal with a reanimator deck forced to ramp. Then once again we should go back to the drawing board. Since our deck should be better then a ramping re-animator deck.
edit:
I'm not ignoring the rest of your points about Aristocrats and etc, I'm just trying to keep the topic on reanimator without straying into talking about other decks.
edit2:
Possibly a silly suggestion but what about Faith's Shield in the sideboard to prevent acidic slimes from destroying our lands. I personally don't fully believe in the idea my self. Though I just kind of though of it off the top of my head. It might be a decent sideboard card that can help in other match's as well.
Yes but that is what we want them to do. Ramp, play a fair game. If they can't just keep re-animating stuff out of the graveyard they're forced to play a fair game. Which is where our deck should excel at.
We have the option to ramp as well. We also have the option to simply blowup their dorks with Bonfire, Domri -2, Electrickery, etc. Its much easier for us to deal with a fair game then it is to deal with re-animated targets.
If this deck cannot deal with a reanimator deck forced to ramp. Then once again we should go back to the drawing board. Since our deck should be better then a ramping re-animator deck.
edit:
I'm not ignoring the rest of your points about Aristocrats and etc, I'm just trying to keep the topic on reanimator without straying into talking about other decks.
edit2:
Possibly a silly suggestion but what about Faith's Shield in the sideboard to prevent acidic slimes from destroying our lands. I personally don't fully believe in the idea my self. Though I just kind of though of it off the top of my head. It might be a decent sideboard card that can help in other match's as well.
I used it in my old GW Aggro shell to push through damage and it was a house. It's worth testing for side-board. Come FNM I'm going to try the Rest in Peace in combination with blowing up their dorks. Neither Reanimation or Ramp is useful if their dorks are dead. If they merely play a land at a time they'll be dead before they can reanimate or hard-cast a Thragtusk.
An interesting thing I've noticed with sublime archangel is that in conjunction with domri and boros reckoner you can do a whole lot of damage out of no where.
T1 -> Pilgrim
T2 -> Reckoner
T3 -> Sublime -> swing reckoner for 6
T4 -> sublime attacks for 7, drop domri Main 2 and have your angel fight your reckoner redirecting 7 to your opponent (at the cost of your reckoner).
Not necessarily the line you want to rely on to kill people but the same thing can happen with Ghor-Clan and boros reckoner if you say swing with a smiter and bloodrush it then drop domri and fight your guys together hitting your opponent for 16 damage in a turn. Sublime fits that theme as well pretty nicely allowing you to create big dudes. Even if they're at 20 you can kill them in 1 turn by bloodrushing sublime to 10/9 and then dropping domri and fighting reckoner and sublime.
I guess you can call it Aggro but a deck like Cedric's Sage Jund which has a similar curve still has enough oomph to beat Reanimator. Honestly outside of RG that deck has very good matchups across the board. It has nothing to do with removal. Maybe Bonfire of the Damned, but nothing intrinsically black for removal. The deck has issues with RG though. Not huge issues but enough. Something that Boros Reckoner alone would probably solve. I'm not talking Blitz, as I still think Thundermaw is where you want to be. But more take a page out of that book where they still can race Reanimator. I think Naya needs to average only about 1 turn faster to reach that.
It does not matter your list you can not consistently win the long game against Reanimator. They play more value, more expensive threats and if you are on Reckoner more ramp/insurance to hit their land drops. It is not an attrition war you should win. Reanimator also has the potential to be faster. It invalidates a board value midrange strategy entirely. Those strategies never get the chance to choose their role and in so are at the mercy of the opponents draw.
All it takes is a nudge in one direction, if far enough to reconcile that. But it's pretty hard to go more controlling. More aggressive might be doable. I'm not talking about sacrificing the core creature ramp 3-5 drop strategy but being conscious enough of the situation to consider alternatives along the curve. Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe aggro is preying on Reanimator enough you can play aggro all day. But without the push a lot of things become more difficult. Control that much more of a grind. The need to side in more specific answers in situations where you are fundamentally the beatdown deck (even if your list isn't designed to beat down). I don't know about you but would you rather rely more on specific answers when you are on the beatdown or control plan? Although ultimately this is a problem that solves itself. If RG diminishes the deck changes or fades again. I just think somewhere between this and Sage Jund is the perfect balance point for midrange in the format. There is almost always a sweet spot in every format depending on the aggro and go bigger deck in the format. But if you find you almost have 50 percent matchups across the board. I think Sage Jund was where it was til right before DGM when the RG list showed up. Now I think it's closer to Naya.
Edit:
@jb231 we're definitely pretty close to the same page with that. A great way to fling Angel. T4 win. I haven't done that on T4 but Domri fight my own huge guy has won me more than a few games.
Faith's Shield I love but it's only really good when you are threatening. You already need to have the Thundermaw or the big 4 in play. A lot better with Silverblade and Sublime. Although its even more hilarious with Voice out. However to get all those out are awkward on curve. In so Silverblade not good enough on its own doesn't make the cut but Sublime seems plausible. The real question more becomes would you just rather have Boros Charm than Faith's Shield in more matchups.
Trying the full 4 of bonfire. I've been a huge fan of advent as it puts A LOT of dmg through, yes it dies to abrupt decay but I prefer it over resto angel.
The sideboard has been really solid for me. The Selesnya charms are supposed to be Boros charms just so you know. I'll post back on how I do.
Ray and thalia are both good, bonfire would work as well. The most likely case of beating them is try and disrupt them a little and hope they stumble, pretty sure they run voice now too so some pillars could help with VoR and pilgrim. The issue is dedicating too much side to that one deck, 2 rays, 2 thalia would be a pretty strong start though.
So I picked up Willy Edel's naya list or something close to it about a week ago
I went 6-3 at a PTQ and 4-0'd FNM so I'm very happy with it
All three matches at the PTQ I lost to were Bant Hexproof. I think I'll configure my sideboard heavily for that matchup. What's the best cards against them? Ray of Revelation? Renounce the Guilds?
Round 1 I face Primespeaker Bant. He ramps up to Master Biomancer and proceeds to drop a 3/3 dork, a 7/7 Advent of the Wurm token and a 7/5 Thragtusk while I clogged the board with a Loxodon Smiter and Huntmaster of the Fells. He made a misplay because he landed a Conjurer's Closet, intending to blink his Thragtusk but was worried I would flip my Huntmasters to double-trigger his Thragtusk away (forgetting it was a 7/5) and swung out to trade with most of my board but still leaving me with a wolf token and huntmaster. He lost gas after that and I finished him off. Game 2 he just got mana-flooded. 2-0 win.
Round 3 I fought Bant Hexproof. Game 1 I lost because he attached 2 Rancors and a Spectral Flight on his loan Sublime Archangel and nailed me for 11 points with one attack and won the next turn. I wanted to slow down his acceleration so I sided in 3 Pillar of Flame and proceeded to burn down his dorks while laying down my threats. Shutting him off from his mana dorks slowed him down to the point where by the time he had a Geist of Saint Traft with a Rancor on it I was already finishing him off in the air. Game 3 his deck just whiffed and he super-enchanted his Loxodon Smiter that I proceeded to Selesnya Charm so that was that. 2-1 win.
Round 6 I had the option to fight a Naya-Blitz player but we intentionally drew to guarantee Top 8 seats and prizes for both of ourselves. We did try playing a match and I misplayed Game 1 by not just aggro'ing him to death while game 2 he had Champion of the Parish into 2 Burning-Tree Emissary into Firefist Striker and when I cast Boros Reckoner to block it had Pacifism thrown on it. 1-1-1 draw.
I'm considering adding in Aurelia, the Warleader ONLY because my local meta is a good mix of midrange and aggro decks and Aurelia, the Warleader can end games the turn she comes in. I'm not quite sure what to take out but I'm sure at least 1 Thundermaw Hellkite would be coming out. I had the Electrickery because of Aristocrats and I fought an Act 2 version for fun and it wiped their entire field (at the cost of half my life though..). I need to be aggressive against dorks because many of these decks fall without ramp while ours survives perfectly fine. Rest in Peace is a bomb, as always.
2 unflinching courage
2 o-ring
2 ray of revelation
Should be good enough for a GPT tomorrow
If you're talking about against Bant Hexproof I'd nix the O-Rings. The significant threats have hexproof. Unflinching Courage is an absolute bomb on Boros Reckoner and isn't bad on Loxodon Smiter or Voice of Resurgence. I would have sided 2 Ray of Revelation at my FNM yesterday if I knew I would be facing Bant Hexproof. It honestly was a match-up I feel I should have lost had he not misplayed.
I maintain my philosophy of killing their dorks to slow them down. I forgot about Voice of Resurgence and their enchantments, that's worth siding it in. Renounce the Guilds is also a possibility but is bad for our board. I say Ray of Revelation is a good start.
O-ring hits voice and enchantments. It's one of the only ways to interact, and is good in the SB because it's versatile against many other decks in addition to hexproof. I lost to fog against hexproof in my last game. That deck's goal is to stop all interaction in magic from happening. Hexproof to stop your spells and abilities, enchantments to stop you from blocking, and fog to stop you from racing. If they draw decent hands you can not play magic, only sit there and cast creatures pointlessly
Not overly surprising but the deck went down in the Quarter finals to Bant enchant. Interesting list though, 2 huntmasters, only 8 mountains, and no restoration angels in the deck. Seems like with all those ground creatures and only 2 ghor clans the deck would be slower than what we've been brewing here but a little more stable vs aggro for sure with huntmasters. Trade off seems to be playing huntmaster over mizzium mortars for defense which then allows selesnya charm MD to beat ghor clan'd attackers and opposing thundermaws/AoS. Only thing that seems a little odd is you're sort of taking turn 4 off unless you're hard casting the rampager/drawing 1 of your 2 huntmasters. I guess with all the powerful 3 drops you sort of have the option of ghor-claning and casting another 2, casting another 3, casting a charm and a dork, etc.
Been seeing a lot of Assemble the Legion in the side lately. What decks do you side this in against?
Mid range decks, control decks.
Gives us another treat thats hard for them to answer. Sometimes you win off the back of just this, and its really hard to renounce it away unless they get it before you make tokens and have no other creatures
Not overly surprising but the deck went down in the Quarter finals to Bant enchant. Interesting list though, 2 huntmasters, only 8 mountains, and no restoration angels in the deck. Seems like with all those ground creatures and only 2 ghor clans the deck would be slower than what we've been brewing here but a little more stable vs aggro for sure with huntmasters. Trade off seems to be playing huntmaster over mizzium mortars for defense which then allows selesnya charm MD to beat ghor clan'd attackers and opposing thundermaws/AoS. Only thing that seems a little odd is you're sort of taking turn 4 off unless you're hard casting the rampager/drawing 1 of your 2 huntmasters. I guess with all the powerful 3 drops you sort of have the option of ghor-claning and casting another 2, casting another 3, casting a charm and a dork, etc.
Asked Peter Ingram what he'd change post-GP and he said possibly -1 Boar, +1 Rampager. Makes sense to me.
Asked Peter Ingram what he'd change post-GP and he said possibly -1 Boar, +1 Rampager. Makes sense to me.
Further go on that Me personally would go
-2 boar(since only 2 feels a bit meh)
+1 Bonfire
+1 arbor elf
Its really important for this deck to be slamming turn 2 3drops. Im not sure if the math turns out that we only need 5 mana guys, but 6 feels a lot better to me.
Either way the two seem to be a naya midrange staple in the 4 slot (looking at naya decks winning events recently)
Yea I suppose I could do a 2/2 split with huntmaster/resto
And then with resto in the main it makes more sense to sideboard a zealous conscripts
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
To add to that discussion the Wurm is also susceptible to Abrupt Decay and between Junk Aristocrats, Jund, and Reanimator, it's a card that can make our attack a dead one.
I'm experimenting with 2 Advent of the Wurm and I see it as enough. Just enough to get value but not too much to whiff-out on Domri too much. In this build you either lighten up on spells (2-4 max) or toss out Domri for more spells (like that Naya Midrange that had 14 spells main-board).
Seeing as my meta is actually rather slow I might give {CARD]Aurelia, the Warleader[/CARD] a try as a 1-of. Also Cavern of Souls can go, I have too many creature-types and control is almost non-existent in my meta.
I've never ran into a problem with having Ruric stuck in my hand while not having anything else to play. If I do have the 6 mana to drop this fatty on the board its pretty much game over. Since he trumps most blockers, then if they try to remove him with a spell they take huge damage anyways.
I've had a few games where I drop Ruric on turn 4 which is absolutely amazing.
3x Avacyn's Pilgrim
2x Arbor Elf
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Loxodon Smiter
4x Huntmaster of the Fells
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
3x Thundermaw Hellkite
2x Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
Spells:
2x Selesnya Charm
3x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Domri Rade
4x Stomping Ground
3x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple Garden
3x Rootbound Crag
2x Clifftop Retreat
3x Sunpetal Grove
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Pillar of Flame
2x Ray of Revelation
3x Unflinching Courage
2x Traitorous Blood
2x Boros Charm
2x Purify the Grave
2x Blasphemous Act
The matchup for his Huntmaster Resto build is so hard. He's sitting there with a bunch of Selesnya charms when Slime effectively beats him on its own. It didn't happen in the game but if I was the Reanimator opponent I probably wouldn't have even bothered sliming a Ground Seal or Rest in Peace since short of Dragon Kiblers deck did almost absolutely nothing. He was losing 20-0 outside of it.
And that's the thing. So much aggro. If there wasn't I don't even see the list even remotely competitive.
The Deck needs to be doing more earlier to compliment slamming dragon. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but figuring out how to be more aggressive and still keeping the aggro matchup doesn't seem too hard. It starts with Ghor Clan most likely and probably continues with more aggressive potential in 4 drops, or more haste around 2-3. As long as you have sufficient ramp/lands to play Thundermaw there is a lot that can be done in the middle.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I will add that against Reanimator we are at a severe disadvantage, to put it lightly. With an Angel of Serenity as early as Turn 3, we need to be aggressive. I've thought of main-decking Unflinching Courage. It turns any of our threats (outside of a dork) into a deadly threat and on a Voice of Resurgence or Boros Reckoner it's quite deadly.
I took out Thragtusk because it did not serve to stabilize enough against aggro but I agree that the deck needs more removal (if even at instant speed), against Reanimator. Acidic Slime doesn't help by destroying the lands you need to cast your threats.
Edit: For haste drops, at the 2 slot we have Skyknight Legionnaire, 2 slot (potentially) Flinthoof Boar, Strangleroot Geist, 4-slot Spark Trooper, and 3-slot Viashino Firstblade. There's also Hellrider and Zealous Conscripts.
Since it sounds like when you're saying to simply be more aggressive that's what blitz does. Midrange is supposed to be able to ramp into bigger threats, or be able to control the board with removal, and big creatures (for naya)
I personally don't know what the answer would be, though if you want to play midrange I would suggest trying to combat the primary problem. Losing lands to acidic slime and not being able to do anything about it.
The odds of getting completely blown out by a single Angel of Serenity is unlikely, or if you do get completely blown out by a single Angel. Then you should probably re-think how your deck is built.
I'm much more dedicated to my Naya Midrange deck than that. I ran it when everyone else was running completely different decks, please do not misinterpret my suggestions, they were for that user alone seeing as he wanted "aggressive" creatures in Naya's colors.
I checked out Junk Reanimator and found the following weaknesses:
1. Electrickery - Burns their dorks, burns their spirit tokens, severely delays Acidic Slime, Angel of Serenity, Unburial Rites.
2. Rest in Peace - Shuts off Aristocrats and Reanimator shenanigans but come game 2-3 they will alter their deck to not use Reanimator shenanigans. A better hoser against Aristocrats if anything.
3. Pillar of Flame - Shuts down dorks and new lists running Voice of Resurgence. Considering how useful this is against aggro decks in general it is much easier to main-board as a 2-3 of than Electrickery.
4. Oblivion Ring/Selesnya Charm - Oblivion Ring hits more threats but is shut off by Abrupt Decay which is within Reanimator's 75. Not to mention Reanimator would thank you kindly to giving them a second Angel of Serenity activation. Selesnya Charm shuts off 5+ power creatures Angel of Serenity, Thragtusk, Craterhoof Behemoth and Obzedat, Ghost Council and also serves to be useful against opposing Thundermaw Hellkite and blood-rushed creatures/Kessig Wolf Run pumped creatures. Selesnya Charm is more useful in the main-board if it's a big problem in your meta.
4. If you splash black you get useful cards like Dreadbore, Putrefy, Slaughter Games, etc.
It wasn't directed at anyone, due to why I didn't quote anyone. Anyways the point of my post way to say. "Look this discussion is turning into an 'aggro' discussion so we should look for ways to beat reanimator besides turning into blitz."
I do agree with your points for the most part. I do really like Pillar in my sideboard for dealing with general reanimator non-sense. Also I think purify the grave should be the card of choice for dealing with reanimate targets. Since it puts them behind a turn, and it can be used to force them to play around it, which can lead to them playing slower and not burning through our lands as quickly.
I don't agree with transitioning to Black at the moment. I don't think we need to splash for black to deal with reanimator. It will make the deck less consistent.
The thing is is that they will ramp hard into it if they can't reanimate it and the only way to stop that is to kill their dorks quickly. I find Rest in Peace is more useful against Aristocrats as it shuts off Blood Artist and Morbid Creatures. If the Rest in Peace gets Abrupt Decay'd then it's still served its purpose in exiling their graveyard.
Yes but that is what we want them to do. Ramp, play a fair game. If they can't just keep re-animating stuff out of the graveyard they're forced to play a fair game. Which is where our deck should excel at.
We have the option to ramp as well. We also have the option to simply blowup their dorks with Bonfire, Domri -2, Electrickery, etc. Its much easier for us to deal with a fair game then it is to deal with re-animated targets.
If this deck cannot deal with a reanimator deck forced to ramp. Then once again we should go back to the drawing board. Since our deck should be better then a ramping re-animator deck.
edit:
I'm not ignoring the rest of your points about Aristocrats and etc, I'm just trying to keep the topic on reanimator without straying into talking about other decks.
edit2:
Possibly a silly suggestion but what about Faith's Shield in the sideboard to prevent acidic slimes from destroying our lands. I personally don't fully believe in the idea my self. Though I just kind of though of it off the top of my head. It might be a decent sideboard card that can help in other match's as well.
I used it in my old GW Aggro shell to push through damage and it was a house. It's worth testing for side-board. Come FNM I'm going to try the Rest in Peace in combination with blowing up their dorks. Neither Reanimation or Ramp is useful if their dorks are dead. If they merely play a land at a time they'll be dead before they can reanimate or hard-cast a Thragtusk.
T1 -> Pilgrim
T2 -> Reckoner
T3 -> Sublime -> swing reckoner for 6
T4 -> sublime attacks for 7, drop domri Main 2 and have your angel fight your reckoner redirecting 7 to your opponent (at the cost of your reckoner).
Not necessarily the line you want to rely on to kill people but the same thing can happen with Ghor-Clan and boros reckoner if you say swing with a smiter and bloodrush it then drop domri and fight your guys together hitting your opponent for 16 damage in a turn. Sublime fits that theme as well pretty nicely allowing you to create big dudes. Even if they're at 20 you can kill them in 1 turn by bloodrushing sublime to 10/9 and then dropping domri and fighting reckoner and sublime.
It does not matter your list you can not consistently win the long game against Reanimator. They play more value, more expensive threats and if you are on Reckoner more ramp/insurance to hit their land drops. It is not an attrition war you should win. Reanimator also has the potential to be faster. It invalidates a board value midrange strategy entirely. Those strategies never get the chance to choose their role and in so are at the mercy of the opponents draw.
All it takes is a nudge in one direction, if far enough to reconcile that. But it's pretty hard to go more controlling. More aggressive might be doable. I'm not talking about sacrificing the core creature ramp 3-5 drop strategy but being conscious enough of the situation to consider alternatives along the curve. Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe aggro is preying on Reanimator enough you can play aggro all day. But without the push a lot of things become more difficult. Control that much more of a grind. The need to side in more specific answers in situations where you are fundamentally the beatdown deck (even if your list isn't designed to beat down). I don't know about you but would you rather rely more on specific answers when you are on the beatdown or control plan? Although ultimately this is a problem that solves itself. If RG diminishes the deck changes or fades again. I just think somewhere between this and Sage Jund is the perfect balance point for midrange in the format. There is almost always a sweet spot in every format depending on the aggro and go bigger deck in the format. But if you find you almost have 50 percent matchups across the board. I think Sage Jund was where it was til right before DGM when the RG list showed up. Now I think it's closer to Naya.
Edit:
@jb231 we're definitely pretty close to the same page with that. A great way to fling Angel. T4 win. I haven't done that on T4 but Domri fight my own huge guy has won me more than a few games.
Faith's Shield I love but it's only really good when you are threatening. You already need to have the Thundermaw or the big 4 in play. A lot better with Silverblade and Sublime. Although its even more hilarious with Voice out. However to get all those out are awkward on curve. In so Silverblade not good enough on its own doesn't make the cut but Sublime seems plausible. The real question more becomes would you just rather have Boros Charm than Faith's Shield in more matchups.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
1 Gavony Township
1 Forest
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
4 Clifftop Retreat
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Selesnya Charm
4 Domri Rade
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Experiment One
2 Flinthoof Boar
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Boros Charm
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Unflinching Courage
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thragtusk
4 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Forest
3 Sunpetal Grove
1 Gavony Township
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Arbor Elf
4 Domri Rade
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Bonfire of the Damned
Trying the full 4 of bonfire. I've been a huge fan of advent as it puts A LOT of dmg through, yes it dies to abrupt decay but I prefer it over resto angel.
The sideboard has been really solid for me. The Selesnya charms are supposed to be Boros charms just so you know. I'll post back on how I do.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
I would say 1-2 of Ray of Revelation as you get 2 activations off of it and unless it gets Dissipated it will definitely blow up that annoying Unflinching Courage.
On topic here's my FNM Report I went 4-1-1 (opting to draw the last round to guarantee Top 8 based on my FNMs records).
Here is what I was running:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Advent of the Wurm
Sorceries (4)
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Mizzium Mortars
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Domri Rade
Lands (24)
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
2 Electrickery
2 Unflinching Courage
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Rest in Peace
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
Round 1 I face Primespeaker Bant. He ramps up to Master Biomancer and proceeds to drop a 3/3 dork, a 7/7 Advent of the Wurm token and a 7/5 Thragtusk while I clogged the board with a Loxodon Smiter and Huntmaster of the Fells. He made a misplay because he landed a Conjurer's Closet, intending to blink his Thragtusk but was worried I would flip my Huntmasters to double-trigger his Thragtusk away (forgetting it was a 7/5) and swung out to trade with most of my board but still leaving me with a wolf token and huntmaster. He lost gas after that and I finished him off. Game 2 he just got mana-flooded. 2-0 win.
Round 2 I fought an Aggro version of this deck. He still used Domri Rade trying to get to Thundermaw Hellkite but he had 3 dorks out and a Strangleroot Geist and I Bonfire of the Damned'd his field for 1 which utterly finished him off as I had a Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, and Boros Reckoner waiting to swing. I sided in Unflinching Courage and stuck it on a Boros Reckoner game 2 and took that game quickly. 2-0 win.
Round 3 I fought Bant Hexproof. Game 1 I lost because he attached 2 Rancors and a Spectral Flight on his loan Sublime Archangel and nailed me for 11 points with one attack and won the next turn. I wanted to slow down his acceleration so I sided in 3 Pillar of Flame and proceeded to burn down his dorks while laying down my threats. Shutting him off from his mana dorks slowed him down to the point where by the time he had a Geist of Saint Traft with a Rancor on it I was already finishing him off in the air. Game 3 his deck just whiffed and he super-enchanted his Loxodon Smiter that I proceeded to Selesnya Charm so that was that. 2-1 win.
Round 4 I fought the undefeated guy at our store that never loses a match. 4-Color Control packing Farseek, Izzet Charm, Pillar of Flame, Snapcaster Mage, Thundermaw Hellkite, Restoration Angel, Sphinx's Revelation, Huntmaster of the Fells, Thragtusk, and Thragtusk. He ramps up through Farseek to double Thundermaw Hellkite and I lose the next game to double Thragtusk, double Pillar of Flame and a miracle'd Bonfire of the Damned. 0-2 loss.
Round 5 I fought a hate-bear version of the Junk Aristocrats deck. He uses Bloodthrone Vampire as his sac outlet, Blood Artist, Strangleroot Geist, Voice of Resurgence, and uses Immortal Servitude to mass-revive them as the creatures in his deck are all 2 CMC. Game 1 I Domri Rade with Boros Reckoner and off two of his creatures while Mizzium Mortars takes care of the last one. I traded 2 Voice of Resurgence for 2 3/3 Elemental Tokens that were then made into 5/5's after I dropped Huntmaster of the Fells. I swarmed his board and won the match. Game 2 I sided in Pillar of Flame over Mizzium Mortars and 2 Rest in Peace siding out 2 Voice of Resurgence (as it shuts ours off too) and slammed it down Turn 2. He forgot to side in Abrupt Decay so it was over quickly. 2-0 Win.
Round 6 I had the option to fight a Naya-Blitz player but we intentionally drew to guarantee Top 8 seats and prizes for both of ourselves. We did try playing a match and I misplayed Game 1 by not just aggro'ing him to death while game 2 he had Champion of the Parish into 2 Burning-Tree Emissary into Firefist Striker and when I cast Boros Reckoner to block it had Pacifism thrown on it. 1-1-1 draw.
I'm considering adding in Aurelia, the Warleader ONLY because my local meta is a good mix of midrange and aggro decks and Aurelia, the Warleader can end games the turn she comes in. I'm not quite sure what to take out but I'm sure at least 1 Thundermaw Hellkite would be coming out. I had the Electrickery because of Aristocrats and I fought an Act 2 version for fun and it wiped their entire field (at the cost of half my life though..). I need to be aggressive against dorks because many of these decks fall without ramp while ours survives perfectly fine. Rest in Peace is a bomb, as always.
If you're talking about against Bant Hexproof I'd nix the O-Rings. The significant threats have hexproof. Unflinching Courage is an absolute bomb on Boros Reckoner and isn't bad on Loxodon Smiter or Voice of Resurgence. I would have sided 2 Ray of Revelation at my FNM yesterday if I knew I would be facing Bant Hexproof. It honestly was a match-up I feel I should have lost had he not misplayed.
1 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Flinthoof Boar
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
Planeswalkers:
4 Domri Rade
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Bonfire of the Damned
Lands:
2 Forest
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Gavony Township
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
2 Unflinching Courage
2 Boros Charm
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Blasphemous Act
2 Pillar of Flame
Not overly surprising but the deck went down in the Quarter finals to Bant enchant. Interesting list though, 2 huntmasters, only 8 mountains, and no restoration angels in the deck. Seems like with all those ground creatures and only 2 ghor clans the deck would be slower than what we've been brewing here but a little more stable vs aggro for sure with huntmasters. Trade off seems to be playing huntmaster over mizzium mortars for defense which then allows selesnya charm MD to beat ghor clan'd attackers and opposing thundermaws/AoS. Only thing that seems a little odd is you're sort of taking turn 4 off unless you're hard casting the rampager/drawing 1 of your 2 huntmasters. I guess with all the powerful 3 drops you sort of have the option of ghor-claning and casting another 2, casting another 3, casting a charm and a dork, etc.
Mid range decks, control decks.
Gives us another treat thats hard for them to answer. Sometimes you win off the back of just this, and its really hard to renounce it away unless they get it before you make tokens and have no other creatures
This card has been an allstar
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Asked Peter Ingram what he'd change post-GP and he said possibly -1 Boar, +1 Rampager. Makes sense to me.
Further go on that Me personally would go
-2 boar(since only 2 feels a bit meh)
+1 Bonfire
+1 arbor elf
Its really important for this deck to be slamming turn 2 3drops. Im not sure if the math turns out that we only need 5 mana guys, but 6 feels a lot better to me.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW