BTE decks are a rough one, especially the jund aggro match up. You only have augur, charms for the early game and falkenrath is a huge problem game one.
I have liked Thought Scour in testing as well, the one thing I'm really curious about is running a Gavony Township. It seems okay in theory, but can the manabase really support a colorless land? I have cut Ghost Quarter because of that for another dual.
After play testing, I feel like Gavony is probably a little unnecessary right now. Gavony puts pressure on our opponents, but everything besides our Wurm really don't get much benefit, and its very slow. We don't want to try and race our opponents as much as we just want to get rid of what they have so we can slam a Wurm into an open or weakened board state. I think Moorland Haunt is also pretty weak for our slim creature cards, so Ghost Quarter feels right, especially since Esper can blow us out with Drownyard. I think we can afford the colorless land. Running 25 lands and only having one colorless has never been a problem for me - our base is actually fairly versatile since we don't get over zealous with the colorless lands.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Worth some testing I guess. I decided to sideboard the Pikes because as he said he really only wanted them for the Green Midrange match-ups while Voice is good for Aggro and Control match-ups.
If I do put in Moorland Haunt, I'm not sure whether to replace one of the basics or the Ghost Quarter for it. I'm thinking Ghost Quarter, but that puts us at the mercy of the non-basics defining standard. (Kessig, Cavern, Township, Vault, etc.)
Matt Costa who placed 12th in the SCG Open here mentions he thinks maindecking Voice of Resurgence is the way forward, and to compensate for making the matchup against green midrange decks worse, he's thinking about putting Moorland Haunt and Runechanter's Pike in as a way to push through lethal damage in the end game. Stagtusk is apparently awesome against aggro and control, whilst mediocre against green midrange.
Thoughts?
I think Runechanter definitely has some merits in our deck, though I haven't gotten to test it. As I mentioned earlier, it seems very powerful with Trample or the Selesnya token (Vigilance). I'm on the fence about Voice, mainly because out of all the matches I've played, I've never played against it, so I don't really know if it's as good as it seems. Against Aggro/Blitz/Midrange/REanimator it seems pretty dead, since we don't run enough creatures to make the token that big. Against Control/The Mirror it seems nuts. I'm not too keen on mainboarding it if it's not going to help us against (roughtly) half our matchups. I guess that's where the Pike comes in, but still. I have 2 on my sideboard and may up it to three once I nab another copy, but I'm not sure if it wants to be maindeck. Anyone else who tries it, please let us know how it fares.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
I think Runechanter definitely has some merits in our deck, though I haven't gotten to test it. As I mentioned earlier, it seems very powerful with Trample or the Selesnya token (Vigilance). I'm on the fence about Voice, mainly because out of all the matches I've played, I've never played against it, so I don't really know if it's as good as it seems. Against Aggro/Blitz/Midrange/REanimator it seems pretty dead, since we don't run enough creatures to make the token that big. Against Control/The Mirror it seems nuts. I'm not too keen on mainboarding it if it's not going to help us against (roughtly) half our matchups. I guess that's where the Pike comes in, but still. I have 2 on my sideboard and may up it to three once I nab another copy, but I'm not sure if it wants to be maindeck. Anyone else who tries it, please let us know how it fares.
Yeah, I think I still like the Angels and Augurs better. I might be more willing to try something other than the Angel (possibly 2 Voice) and going from 3 Angels 2 Augurs to 2 Angels 3 Augurs, but we'll see.
I played this list at a small tournament last night, with a few changes. -3 Loxodon Smiter (friend needed them for bant auras), -2 Negate - +3 Voice of Resurgance, + 2 Dissipate.
I went 3-1 and split top 4 for some store credit. My games were GW Aggro 2-1, Esper control 2-1, Junk Reanimator 1-2, WBR Sire reanimator 2-1.
I'm not going to give a tournament report unless someone asks for more detail, but I will share some observations I had over the course of the tournament.
Esper control is a rough MU. They have drownyard + removal and we have 1 ghost quarter which means their "flash" type gameplan is much better than ours. I won game 2 on the back of quick wurm beats, and game 3 because he had to mulligan to 4 for whatever reason. I'm not sure what could be done to improve this matchup besides putting a psychic spiral in the SB and hoping to resolve it late. I had Voice games 2 and 3, and resolved him both games, but I'm not sure how much that contributed to my wins. I'm not 100% sold on him, but I will reserve judgement until I have some more time playing with him.
Junk rites is also extremely difficult. It isn't so much the unburial rites package as it is the midrange package of Slime/Resto/Thragtusk that does degenerate things. I did lose game 3, after going to time, on turn 3 so perhaps over the course of the 3rd game I could have done something a little different to at least pull out a draw. Clone doesn't seem to be that good against them, and we can't always rely on counters since most lists play Cavern, so I'm not sure where to turn next, but I have some ideas.
Trostani is incredible. Play her.
No, seriously, just play her.
She just wins the aggro MU's if you untap with her and any token.
Azorius charm was easily the worst card in the deck. Selesnya charm and unsummon were both better all night. I'm not sure if that means I want to cut them, but I'm at least considering a 3/3 split of Azorius/Selesnya. Clone is also getting cut from the SB. I'm thinking those slots will become +1 Psychic spiral, +1 Progenitor Mimic. The mimic is expensive, but against Junk, as long as they don't have Angel of Serenity to immediately remove it copying any of their creatures probably means victory. I'm also considering changing the Rest in Peace to Ground Seal. If they kill it, we are probably screwed. But either one causes them to look for resources to remove it, and ground seal cantrips which contributes to the velocity these kind of decks thrive on, so I think it's at least worth testing. It may be wrong though.
Runechanters pike is an interesting option, but I'm not sure if I would be comfortable MDing Voice of Resurgence or not. He's fairly mediocre, but so is Augur I suppose, and they both still create an advantage. If I'm cutting a land for a Moorland Haunt it's either going to be the island, or I'm adding a 26th land somehow. Also, I'm not sure if Pike is where you want to be against midrange green decks, since they all have MD ways to kill it. If it is the direction to move, that means we probably need simic charm in the 75 as well.
So, I guess after all that, it leaves me considering 3 options, minimal changes, as talked about above, or 1 of the following 2 lists. I'm not sure which is better, but I'll throw the other 2 out for the sake of discussion.
Interesting. I never suspected Trostani of being good in a deck with only 6 single-token producers (2 with 2 toughness) and 6-8 other creatures (3-4 with 1 toughness). Therefore...
...if you untap with her and any token
that is a pretty big "if" to tap out 4 mana on your turn for. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good if you can pull it off, but that it sounds like it has pretty low odds of happening. I'll give it a test, but "odds" are I won't like it.
However, it does sound better if you have a Voice of Resurgence token. 2 tokens + Trostani = 3 life the first time... 4 life... 5 life.... (sudden realization that this would work great with evolve).
Interesting. I never suspected Trostani of being good in a deck with only 6 single-token producers (2 with 2 toughness) and 6-8 other creatures (3-4 with 1 toughness). Therefore...
that is a pretty big "if" to tap out 4 mana on your turn for. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good if you can pull it off, but that it sounds like it has pretty low odds of happening. I'll give it a test, but "odds" are I won't like it.
However, it does sound better if you have a Voice of Resurgence token. 2 tokens + Trostani = 3 life the first time... 4 life... 5 life.... (sudden realization that this would work great with evolve).
Thoughts?
She isn't always going to be enough, but she took over both games I had her in against GW aggro. I have to imagine she would only be better with Voice Tokens. That might be enough to push Voice into the MD, or at the very least side it in against aggro (which I didn't do yesterday).
There is no other single card we could run that would have that impact.
After a little testing with Trostani, I've concluded that it does indeed help in the aggro match-up.
Naya Blitz is still a pretty tough one to beat though. Lost 3/4 SB games with Trostani sided in. Selesnya Aggro might be an easier match-up without Flinthoof Boar, Burning-Tree Emissary, and Searing Spear. And nobody I know run's blitz. I just figure if I can hold my own against blitz or win, I should at least have better match-ups against other types of aggro.
Esper control is a rough MU. They have drownyard + removal and we have 1 ghost quarter which means their "flash" type gameplan is much better than ours. I won game 2 on the back of quick wurm beats, and game 3 because he had to mulligan to 4 for whatever reason. I'm not sure what could be done to improve this matchup besides putting a psychic spiral in the SB and hoping to resolve it late. I had Voice games 2 and 3, and resolved him both games, but I'm not sure how much that contributed to my wins. I'm not 100% sold on him, but I will reserve judgement until I have some more time playing with him.
I played against Esper as well, and felt that it was also an incredibly tough matchup. With so much removal and way more conterspells, they are able to warp our field prescence to a ridiculous extent, since our deck is caught between midrange and control. Once they resolve a Jace or play a Drownyard, it become a tedious uphill battle for us to try and just get enough pressure on them. A Psychic Spiral may be the correct way to go, but its one of those cards that is tough to resolve in the MU and makes me wish we had a card like Counterflux. Voice here is actually very good I believe, but only if we drop him turn two. A late game Voice isn't going to help us as much as we need it to. I'm not too sure what else we can really do within our colors, except for O Ring or D Sphere.
Junk rites is also extremely difficult. It isn't so much the unburial rites package as it is the midrange package of Slime/Resto/Thragtusk that does degenerate things. I did lose game 3, after going to time, on turn 3 so perhaps over the course of the 3rd game I could have done something a little different to at least pull out a draw. Clone doesn't seem to be that good against them, and we can't always rely on counters since most lists play Cavern, so I'm not sure where to turn next, but I have some ideas.
Clone is actually a pretty good card against Junk, but we really just need to target a Huntmaster, Olivia, or Angel. tusk doesn't net us as much value as we are going to want. I don't personally think Progenitor Mimic is what we want because we have no ramp so best case, we drop it turn six. With no mana open to protect it. Untapping with it is incredibly powerful, but its definitely more of a Win-More card, since if we are alive versus Junk at turn six and they have no answers and aren't threatening lethal to force us to block with our copy, they are probably on the ropes anyway. I think Clone is better because he comes out earlier, or even when he comes out later, is easier to protect. This is something I'm keen to try though, since watching Brad Vs Todd's recent play test video has made me think Progenitor Mimic may be better than I assess, but Brad's Sire kind of warped the matches.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
I played against Esper as well, and felt that it was also an incredibly tough matchup. With so much removal and way more conterspells, they are able to warp our field prescence to a ridiculous extent, since our deck is caught between midrange and control. Once they resolve a Jace or play a Drownyard, it become a tedious uphill battle for us to try and just get enough pressure on them. A Psychic Spiral may be the correct way to go, but its one of those cards that is tough to resolve in the MU and makes me wish we had a card like Counterflux. Voice here is actually very good I believe, but only if we drop him turn two. A late game Voice isn't going to help us as much as we need it to. I'm not too sure what else we can really do within our colors, except for O Ring or D Sphere.
Spiral will be tough to resolve against them, but I think adding 1-2 dispels to the SB should help with that. I don't want to over commit to this MU though, since it will hopefully get pushed out.
Clone is actually a pretty good card against Junk, but we really just need to target a Huntmaster, Olivia, or Angel. tusk doesn't net us as much value as we are going to want. I don't personally think Progenitor Mimic is what we want because we have no ramp so best case, we drop it turn six. With no mana open to protect it. Untapping with it is incredibly powerful, but its definitely more of a Win-More card, since if we are alive versus Junk at turn six and they have no answers and aren't threatening lethal to force us to block with our copy, they are probably on the ropes anyway. I think Clone is better because he comes out earlier, or even when he comes out later, is easier to protect. This is something I'm keen to try though, since watching Brad Vs Todd's recent play test video has made me think Progenitor Mimic may be better than I assess, but Brad's Sire kind of warped the matches.
Out of all those things you listed, they only run Angel. Game 1 was the only one that he reanimated a quick angel of serenity and he put 2 more underneath it, so even a clone wouldn't have done much for me in that situation. He already had a slime out, so if it was post board, I could have just copied his slime once the angel resolved, and blown up enough lands to keep him from casting the rest of his angels (after I dealt with the first). Even having to copy one of our own creatures doesn't seem terrible. It may be win-more, but I know I felt bad enough about clone that I don't want him.
Also, pretty awesome side-note about Sire: Game 2 against my WBR opponent, he reanimited him on turn 5, and in response to the trigger I unsummoned it and flashed in Resto Angel which I then rode to victory, along with a Wurm I drew a few turns later.
Out of all those things you listed, they only run Angel.
Oh yeah, totally messed that post up. Do you plan on trying out Mimic? If so, please let us know how it goes - I'm really interested to see how he does in our build. I'll be running Clone in the meantime, but my meta here is actually very low in Junk Rites anyway (there is a lot of hate going around), so I probably won't have the chance to really try it out.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Added 2x Trostani to side. Tested heavily against Naya Blitz. Although every game was post sideboard my latest build won 2/3 (thanks to Trostani). Going to start testing vs. Esper next. Then Jund. Then Reanimator.
I also want to test Simic Charm over Unsummon. I feel that my local meta isn't going to need something as fast as Unsummon and that the 1 extra mana won't weigh me down as much. Thoughts?
I also want to test Simic Charm over Unsummon. I feel that my local meta isn't going to need something as fast as Unsummon and that the 1 extra mana won't weigh me down as much. Thoughts?
I agree. In testing, Simic Charm has been fantastic in all modes. It closes out games, can protect resources if we are struggling, and can be an Unsummon. I feel like Unsummon is low costed, but not as useful mainly because we don't need a spell that bounces that early in the game like you said. I'm probably going to just run two Simic Charms instead of the 1/1 split I had.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
The only thing that would concern me about running Simic Charm over Unsummon is Sire of Insanity. Jund and WBR reanimator can easily have it on the field turn 5, which means on the play we want the option of Unsummon + 4 drop in response to the trigger to put them on the back foot. On the draw it doesn't matter as much, but it's at least something to be aware of.
I'd be curious how the testing goes though as I have been considering switching my 3rd unsummon to a simic charm since it is an awesome response to acidic slime.
I don't think Sire is a very big threat against us, mainly because we run Selesnya Charm Mainboard. So if they do drop a Cavern so we can't counter him, we can usually have an answer either with just bouncing him for a temporary reprieve or exiling him straight up. However, this is just theory since I haven't played against him yet.
Also don't forget that against Sire we can bounce in response to his trigger, so even though we lose our hand still, he will get discarded. This is not always ideal, but is an out if we are on the ropes against him.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
I wasn't talking about straight answers to Sire, I was talking about the option of being able to bounce + cast Advent or Resto. We have plenty of ways to stop him, but being able to unsummon + cast a creature is a huge tempo swing and usually enough to win.
We have plenty of ways to deal with him, but cutting unsummon altogether removes an avenue we can use to our advantage. It may not matter enough to merit consideration for that, but I did do it 1 out of 3 games so it is a scenario that at least comes up. I was just mentioning it for the sake of discussion.
I have been kicking around a bant flash list for a few months. My current version is a little different and a little more token oriented than what it used to be.
I used to kick around Restoration Angel but it was hurting some other areas of the deck such as the augurs and when I added the wurm / rootbound I needed to make some cuts somewhere. It currently has a little bit of an issue against flyers that I am trying to work out but that is mostly just Falkenrath Aristocrat which can be answered with a counter or Renounce the Guilds currently. I am trying to iron that out a little but there is a possibility of adding some spirit tokens to help against them as well. Opposing resto angels can also be pesky but generally those decks are a lot slower than the Aristocrat decks so its been a lot less pressing so far.
I also used to run heavier on the Sphinx's Revelations but I have been feeling like its a little too slow of late so I moved to some Forbidden Alchemy and am running a lower sphinx count than before. This is also probably because of the fact that my older versions were heavier on the control element where as this can be a lot more explosive with its attacks than my older versions.
Renounce the Guilds is still seeing mixed results but it seems like a lot of the higher end decks where I am worried about how fast they are and how hard they hit are running a lot of multicolored stuff and so its been useful to me for the most part. Obviously when they are bad they are really bad but when they are good they sometimes make the game for me.
It's a sorcery, but what about Uncovered Clues? Digging deeper than an Augur and netting two cards in such an spell heavy deck seems more than fair for a little slower speed.
It's a sorcery, but what about Uncovered Clues? Digging deeper than an Augur and netting two cards in such an spell heavy deck seems more than fair for a little slower speed.
Augur is better 9 times out of 10. Against aggressive decks that 1/3 body is huge.
After testing Quirion Dryad extensively, I decided to cut it. It ended up being too terrible as a top draw, though it usually won if cast turn 2. It ended up being too finicky overall, and not as reliable as we need in this deck. Thought Scour was added in because I wanted more card draw and I think the Azorius Charm interaction can be super sweet. I'll be trying out Trostani to see how she fares, since a lot of people here have been having success with her.
It's a sorcery, but what about Uncovered Clues? Digging deeper than an Augur and netting two cards in such an spell heavy deck seems more than fair for a little slower speed.
Regardless of the advantage we may gain, we never want to tap out on our turn unless its for a good reason. This is not that reason. Even if Augur hits nothing, we get a good body for our mana that can also be blinked with Angel. This card may nab us some advantage, but once we tap out for it, the opponent will take advantage to play something like Sire of Insanity and then we just lose.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
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After play testing, I feel like Gavony is probably a little unnecessary right now. Gavony puts pressure on our opponents, but everything besides our Wurm really don't get much benefit, and its very slow. We don't want to try and race our opponents as much as we just want to get rid of what they have so we can slam a Wurm into an open or weakened board state. I think Moorland Haunt is also pretty weak for our slim creature cards, so Ghost Quarter feels right, especially since Esper can blow us out with Drownyard. I think we can afford the colorless land. Running 25 lands and only having one colorless has never been a problem for me - our base is actually fairly versatile since we don't get over zealous with the colorless lands.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
If I do put in Moorland Haunt, I'm not sure whether to replace one of the basics or the Ghost Quarter for it. I'm thinking Ghost Quarter, but that puts us at the mercy of the non-basics defining standard. (Kessig, Cavern, Township, Vault, etc.)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Augur of Bolas
Instants (25)
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Azorius Charm
3 Unsummon
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Thought Scour
2 Rewind
1 Dissipate
1 Syncopate
2 Supreme Verdict
Lands (25)
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
1 Ghost Quarter / Moorland Haunt
1 Island / Moorland Haunt
1 Plains
3 Feeling of Dread
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Negate
2 Renounce the Guilds
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Rapid Hybridization
2 Clone
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I think Runechanter definitely has some merits in our deck, though I haven't gotten to test it. As I mentioned earlier, it seems very powerful with Trample or the Selesnya token (Vigilance). I'm on the fence about Voice, mainly because out of all the matches I've played, I've never played against it, so I don't really know if it's as good as it seems. Against Aggro/Blitz/Midrange/REanimator it seems pretty dead, since we don't run enough creatures to make the token that big. Against Control/The Mirror it seems nuts. I'm not too keen on mainboarding it if it's not going to help us against (roughtly) half our matchups. I guess that's where the Pike comes in, but still. I have 2 on my sideboard and may up it to three once I nab another copy, but I'm not sure if it wants to be maindeck. Anyone else who tries it, please let us know how it fares.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Yeah, I think I still like the Angels and Augurs better. I might be more willing to try something other than the Angel (possibly 2 Voice) and going from 3 Angels 2 Augurs to 2 Angels 3 Augurs, but we'll see.
EDIT: I have changed my list and matchups.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I went 3-1 and split top 4 for some store credit. My games were GW Aggro 2-1, Esper control 2-1, Junk Reanimator 1-2, WBR Sire reanimator 2-1.
I'm not going to give a tournament report unless someone asks for more detail, but I will share some observations I had over the course of the tournament.
Esper control is a rough MU. They have drownyard + removal and we have 1 ghost quarter which means their "flash" type gameplan is much better than ours. I won game 2 on the back of quick wurm beats, and game 3 because he had to mulligan to 4 for whatever reason. I'm not sure what could be done to improve this matchup besides putting a psychic spiral in the SB and hoping to resolve it late. I had Voice games 2 and 3, and resolved him both games, but I'm not sure how much that contributed to my wins. I'm not 100% sold on him, but I will reserve judgement until I have some more time playing with him.
Junk rites is also extremely difficult. It isn't so much the unburial rites package as it is the midrange package of Slime/Resto/Thragtusk that does degenerate things. I did lose game 3, after going to time, on turn 3 so perhaps over the course of the 3rd game I could have done something a little different to at least pull out a draw. Clone doesn't seem to be that good against them, and we can't always rely on counters since most lists play Cavern, so I'm not sure where to turn next, but I have some ideas.
Trostani is incredible. Play her.
No, seriously, just play her.
She just wins the aggro MU's if you untap with her and any token.
Azorius charm was easily the worst card in the deck. Selesnya charm and unsummon were both better all night. I'm not sure if that means I want to cut them, but I'm at least considering a 3/3 split of Azorius/Selesnya. Clone is also getting cut from the SB. I'm thinking those slots will become +1 Psychic spiral, +1 Progenitor Mimic. The mimic is expensive, but against Junk, as long as they don't have Angel of Serenity to immediately remove it copying any of their creatures probably means victory. I'm also considering changing the Rest in Peace to Ground Seal. If they kill it, we are probably screwed. But either one causes them to look for resources to remove it, and ground seal cantrips which contributes to the velocity these kind of decks thrive on, so I think it's at least worth testing. It may be wrong though.
Runechanters pike is an interesting option, but I'm not sure if I would be comfortable MDing Voice of Resurgence or not. He's fairly mediocre, but so is Augur I suppose, and they both still create an advantage. If I'm cutting a land for a Moorland Haunt it's either going to be the island, or I'm adding a 26th land somehow. Also, I'm not sure if Pike is where you want to be against midrange green decks, since they all have MD ways to kill it. If it is the direction to move, that means we probably need simic charm in the 75 as well.
So, I guess after all that, it leaves me considering 3 options, minimal changes, as talked about above, or 1 of the following 2 lists. I'm not sure which is better, but I'll throw the other 2 out for the sake of discussion.
Runechanters Augur
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Hinterland Harbor
1 Moorland Haunt
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Temple Garden
Creatures
3 Augur of Bolas
2 Restoration Angel
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Azorius Charm
1 Dissipate
2 Rewind
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Syncopate
4 Thought Scour
3 Unsummon
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Progenitor Mimic
2 Renounce the Guilds
1 Dissipate
1 Dispel
2 Ground Seal
1 Silklash Spider
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Runechanters Voice
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Hinterland Harbor
1 Moorland Haunt
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Temple Garden
Creatures
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Restoration Angel
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Azorius Charm
1 Dissipate
2 Rewind
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Syncopate
4 Thought Scour
3 Unsummon
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Runechanter's Pike
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Progenitor Mimic
2 Renounce the Guilds
1 Dissipate
1 Dispel
2 Ground Seal
1 Silklash Spider
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
3 ???
tl,dr: Just read it. You are on a forum which means you want to discuss things and probably aren't illiterate.
that is a pretty big "if" to tap out 4 mana on your turn for. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good if you can pull it off, but that it sounds like it has pretty low odds of happening. I'll give it a test, but "odds" are I won't like it.
However, it does sound better if you have a Voice of Resurgence token. 2 tokens + Trostani = 3 life the first time... 4 life... 5 life.... (sudden realization that this would work great with evolve).
Thoughts?
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
She isn't always going to be enough, but she took over both games I had her in against GW aggro. I have to imagine she would only be better with Voice Tokens. That might be enough to push Voice into the MD, or at the very least side it in against aggro (which I didn't do yesterday).
There is no other single card we could run that would have that impact.
Naya Blitz is still a pretty tough one to beat though. Lost 3/4 SB games with Trostani sided in. Selesnya Aggro might be an easier match-up without Flinthoof Boar, Burning-Tree Emissary, and Searing Spear. And nobody I know run's blitz. I just figure if I can hold my own against blitz or win, I should at least have better match-ups against other types of aggro.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I played against Esper as well, and felt that it was also an incredibly tough matchup. With so much removal and way more conterspells, they are able to warp our field prescence to a ridiculous extent, since our deck is caught between midrange and control. Once they resolve a Jace or play a Drownyard, it become a tedious uphill battle for us to try and just get enough pressure on them. A Psychic Spiral may be the correct way to go, but its one of those cards that is tough to resolve in the MU and makes me wish we had a card like Counterflux. Voice here is actually very good I believe, but only if we drop him turn two. A late game Voice isn't going to help us as much as we need it to. I'm not too sure what else we can really do within our colors, except for O Ring or D Sphere.
Clone is actually a pretty good card against Junk, but we really just need to target a Huntmaster, Olivia, or Angel. tusk doesn't net us as much value as we are going to want. I don't personally think Progenitor Mimic is what we want because we have no ramp so best case, we drop it turn six. With no mana open to protect it. Untapping with it is incredibly powerful, but its definitely more of a Win-More card, since if we are alive versus Junk at turn six and they have no answers and aren't threatening lethal to force us to block with our copy, they are probably on the ropes anyway. I think Clone is better because he comes out earlier, or even when he comes out later, is easier to protect. This is something I'm keen to try though, since watching Brad Vs Todd's recent play test video has made me think Progenitor Mimic may be better than I assess, but Brad's Sire kind of warped the matches.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Spiral will be tough to resolve against them, but I think adding 1-2 dispels to the SB should help with that. I don't want to over commit to this MU though, since it will hopefully get pushed out.
Out of all those things you listed, they only run Angel. Game 1 was the only one that he reanimated a quick angel of serenity and he put 2 more underneath it, so even a clone wouldn't have done much for me in that situation. He already had a slime out, so if it was post board, I could have just copied his slime once the angel resolved, and blown up enough lands to keep him from casting the rest of his angels (after I dealt with the first). Even having to copy one of our own creatures doesn't seem terrible. It may be win-more, but I know I felt bad enough about clone that I don't want him.
Also, pretty awesome side-note about Sire: Game 2 against my WBR opponent, he reanimited him on turn 5, and in response to the trigger I unsummoned it and flashed in Resto Angel which I then rode to victory, along with a Wurm I drew a few turns later.
Oh yeah, totally messed that post up. Do you plan on trying out Mimic? If so, please let us know how it goes - I'm really interested to see how he does in our build. I'll be running Clone in the meantime, but my meta here is actually very low in Junk Rites anyway (there is a lot of hate going around), so I probably won't have the chance to really try it out.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Augur of Bolas
2 Restoration Angel
Instants (25)
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Azorius Charm
3 Simic Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Thought Scour
2 Rewind
2 Syncopate
1 Supreme Verdict
Artifacts (1)
1 Runechanter's Pike
Lands (25)
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Temple Garden
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Negate
2 Renounce the Guilds
2 Clone
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
In a deck like this she is not 100% ideal but with snap+augur potentially giving you more advent of the wurms I can see her value.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
I also want to test Simic Charm over Unsummon. I feel that my local meta isn't going to need something as fast as Unsummon and that the 1 extra mana won't weigh me down as much. Thoughts?
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I agree. In testing, Simic Charm has been fantastic in all modes. It closes out games, can protect resources if we are struggling, and can be an Unsummon. I feel like Unsummon is low costed, but not as useful mainly because we don't need a spell that bounces that early in the game like you said. I'm probably going to just run two Simic Charms instead of the 1/1 split I had.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
I'd be curious how the testing goes though as I have been considering switching my 3rd unsummon to a simic charm since it is an awesome response to acidic slime.
Also don't forget that against Sire we can bounce in response to his trigger, so even though we lose our hand still, he will get discarded. This is not always ideal, but is an out if we are on the ropes against him.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
MB:
4 Selesnya Charm
3 Unsummon / Simic Charm
4 Counters
SB:
3 Renounce the Guilds
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
We have plenty of ways to deal with him, but cutting unsummon altogether removes an avenue we can use to our advantage. It may not matter enough to merit consideration for that, but I did do it 1 out of 3 games so it is a scenario that at least comes up. I was just mentioning it for the sake of discussion.
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
SPELLS
3 Syncopate
4 Azorius Charm
2 Call of the Conclave
3 Selesnya Charm
3 Renounce the Guilds
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Rootborn Defenses
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Breeding Pool
1 Gavony Township
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
2 Call of the Conclave
3 Righteous Blow
2 Negate
2 Dissipate
3 Purify the Grave
3 Supreme Verdict
I used to kick around Restoration Angel but it was hurting some other areas of the deck such as the augurs and when I added the wurm / rootbound I needed to make some cuts somewhere. It currently has a little bit of an issue against flyers that I am trying to work out but that is mostly just Falkenrath Aristocrat which can be answered with a counter or Renounce the Guilds currently. I am trying to iron that out a little but there is a possibility of adding some spirit tokens to help against them as well. Opposing resto angels can also be pesky but generally those decks are a lot slower than the Aristocrat decks so its been a lot less pressing so far.
I also used to run heavier on the Sphinx's Revelations but I have been feeling like its a little too slow of late so I moved to some Forbidden Alchemy and am running a lower sphinx count than before. This is also probably because of the fact that my older versions were heavier on the control element where as this can be a lot more explosive with its attacks than my older versions.
Renounce the Guilds is still seeing mixed results but it seems like a lot of the higher end decks where I am worried about how fast they are and how hard they hit are running a lot of multicolored stuff and so its been useful to me for the most part. Obviously when they are bad they are really bad but when they are good they sometimes make the game for me.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Not a fan of Forbidden with no way to flash it back.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Augur is better 9 times out of 10. Against aggressive decks that 1/3 body is huge.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
3x Augur of Bolas
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Restoration Angel
Spells
4x Azorius Charm
4x Advent of the Wurm
3x Selesnya Charm
3x Thought Scour
1x Dissipate
2x Syncopate
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Rewind
2x Simic Charm
1x Unsummon
1x Runechanter's Pike
1x Supreme Verdict
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Temple Garden
4x Sunpetal Grove
3x Breeding Pool
3x Hinterland Harbor
1x Plains
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Island
2x Feeling of Dread
3x Purify the Grave
2x Dispel
1x Ray of Revelation
2x Renounce the Guilds
3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
After testing Quirion Dryad extensively, I decided to cut it. It ended up being too terrible as a top draw, though it usually won if cast turn 2. It ended up being too finicky overall, and not as reliable as we need in this deck. Thought Scour was added in because I wanted more card draw and I think the Azorius Charm interaction can be super sweet. I'll be trying out Trostani to see how she fares, since a lot of people here have been having success with her.
Regardless of the advantage we may gain, we never want to tap out on our turn unless its for a good reason. This is not that reason. Even if Augur hits nothing, we get a good body for our mana that can also be blinked with Angel. This card may nab us some advantage, but once we tap out for it, the opponent will take advantage to play something like Sire of Insanity and then we just lose.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)