Hey folks, so glad to see the thread is moving now! Real life takes me away for like 2 days and suddenly 2 pages! :> Anyway, I'll start with replying to you Spooky, you bring up a lot of points I think should be addressed - even if some of us don't agree with them. I'll go line by line:
@Spooky:
Well you just keep telling me that because his deck won a tournament, the dorks must be worth something. Of course you'll never know what to tell people with that mindset. Dorks make for horrible topdecks.
Well, to start this off, you mention that they are terrible topdecks. I won't argue that one. However, it's hard to argue that there's a better T1 play. Just the simple use of them requires proper deck construction, if you're going to use them at all, your threat density needs to be as high as possible as well as high impact, to alleviate the bad topdeck problem. I would also like to point out a fact that isn't necessarily the mana-dorks' fault; they are well positioned right now in this format. With no Whipflare or Slagstorm type effect seeing wide play, sure there's Bonfire of the Damned, but you don't have to worry about getting 2-for-1'd as soon as T3 typically short of miracles. If somebody wants to wrath your dorks, it's going to take them at least 4 mana, and that's fine - it was the 2 mana Pyroclasm effect seeing wide play that kept them out of the format last standard (ex: Rampant Growth/Sphere of the Suns being the superior ramp package).
Gavony Township doesn't change that. A dork's value is only as good as the play that follows it, that's why Somberwald Sages and chainable 7 drops are so good. Killing the mana dorks has always been the imperative in MTG; I seriously hope you're not disputing that because that's a whole different principle you should've been acquainted with ages ago. The discussion should be, what do you get for your (vulnerable) mana acceleration? Gavony Township doesn't cut it. For Sages, I've come up with two justifications: Serenity Now (that's what I'm calling my deck now) and being able to play Restoration Angel with a single land untapped... implying that I could play 2 and 3 drops while keeping the option to drop an angel open.
With your hypothetical examples in mind, I'll try my best to give some hypothetical rebuttal, as rooted in real world experience as I can.
Gavony *does* change things when it's a creature vs creature battle, and there's no sweepers to worry about. Have you ever screwed up your opponent when they thought they were going to be making good trades, and you declare an Arbor Elf as a blocker, and tap it for mana before damage happens to have *just enough* for a Gavony activation? The point of Gavony isn't to kill opponents with mass dorks and mass gavony pumps, that's all kinds of linear, slow, and means you drew absolutely nothing but mana-dorks all game. This deck is nothing if not based around creature and combat math - if the game goes to a board standstill, you can often pull ahead simply by pumping your Loxodon Smiter(s) into 6/6's which keep their Thragtusk(s) at bay. The mana-dorks getting pumped is largely just a side benefit, but they enable it's use while being bodies at the same time.
Now I'll try to take a stab at Somberwald Sage you mentioned. I agree with your thinking in the lane of a mana-dork is only as good as the play that follows it, and I looked over your list again. I would like to point out that you could potentially make Somberwald Sage's acceleration *faster* by actually running 8 mana-dorks - you want her down on T2 if possible. Yes, it's more vulnerable that way, but you're committing to a 3 mana 0/1 accelerator in the first place - you either get the payoff from it or you don't. T1 Mana dork, T2 Sage - T3 you have 7 mana assuming no missed land drops. This is where we're treading in rough hypotheticals, but, T3 Angel of Serenity could be amazing or it could be unimpressive with nothing to remove a lot of the time. I would highly suggest you take a look at Brad Nelson's "Hoof There It Is" take on Somberwald Sage - it functions as a high risk, high reward combo deck, and both him and Martin Juza (Juza took 1st in GP Bochum) blew away the format when it was unprepared for it. (source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpboc12/welcome#t8dl).
My only advice on the Sage, you should want T1 accelerators with her I believe, as these guys thought too. You may or may not want to go that route, but that's possibly one of the most proactive strategies utilizing Sage, where Angel of Serenity by and large is a defensive-stabilizing trump card for our Bant decks here.
Not trying to criticize your list at all, but it seems you have the base for an extremely proactive/aggressive start with the Sage, but the rest of the deck may or may not go with that gameplan. I would only ask that rather than assume. I think what it comes down to is there is a pretty cut and dry clear gameplan for "Prime Speaker Bant" as an archetype here, while I definitely encourage out of the box thinking, what you're working with has some clear pros and cons and different elements entirely. TLDR: You should really just test it and report back to us as much as you can on it.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
You shouldnt really be in top deck mode very often with this list. The power of how fast you can accelerate to your end game with 7-8 dorks really does trump the 1 out of 7 games you might have to be top decking.
Anyhow, lemme preface with this. I never net deck. That's not to say I play with terrible cards, jank brews, or combo decks, but I absolutely NEVER copy and paste from whatever won the last big tournament. That being said, I'm having a hard time seeing what I would change from John Mytinger's list. I know it didnt quite finish as high as Chris O'bryant's, but I do find it to be more to my liking.
The only main board difference I see is the Selesnya Charms, which I believe is highly relevant. The ability to give trample to close out a game is huge in the late game. But it also gives you a play on turn 2 if you dont have a farseek or dork. It also can take out big fatties that can pose issues for this deck such as Obzedat, Thundermaw Hellkite, or even opposing Angel of Serenity's. I admit, in my Junk Dad build I've been playing with recently, I didnt like this charm, but here it feels right at home.
I'm truly thinking about straight net decking this list (of course I'm still trying to build dark naya simultaneously XD). It seems really really strong with an end game that can even beat Esper control's. I have played against it a lot this past week from starting at last saturdays Maxpoint silver event and on Moogerworks/Cockatrice and my Junk Dad list just can't keep up, and I imagine its the same story for every other mid range deck.
I completely agree with you when you say for the first time you'd copy/paste and play it - I myself prefer Mytinger's list with 25 lands and 3 Arbor Elves, and there's not much else I would change. Andrew Shrout (Johnnyhotsauce) went 4-0 in an MTGO daily recently, (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1105851) and he's running 3x Syncopate main now. I'm also very surprised GM interviewed him and that our deck is getting a lot of attention right now, but either way, that just means we need to stay on top of what's going on in the meta. (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jarvis-yu-modo-mtgo-03142013-interview-with-andrew-shrout/).
It all comes down to those 3 flex slots in our deck it seems, which interestingly started out as 3x Strangleroot Geist in Shrout and many other's earlier versions.
Selesnya Charm is pretty narrow, but I think the main thing it has going for it is that it's G/W - a lot of the time I'll have games where I have a Syncopate rotting in hand and wish I could cast it (early-mid game) but haven't found a U source yet (no Farseek). It'll at least be consistent and do what you want it to do, if you need it.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
It's like a double counter on the main problem that RiP want to face (but in fact CAN't face well, cause the opponent can race RiP or simply remove it and continue his strategy), and face it better.
Also Lingering Souls is pretty no-more played.
Give it a try, i found that card great.
I'll speak from experience on this one, the #1 reason to choose RiP over Purify the Grave is that it simply has more impact, and is a fire and forget card. It's mainly a stronger hoser card against Human Reanimator, which I do see as a scary matchup. We have very few, if any ways to interact with them, our #1 game plan is to simply race them. If we do nothing to stop them, they have good chances of getting to combo off and go infinite - or you can simply drop Rest in Peace and destroy a good chunk of their graveyard. I know there's the whole argument against it simply because of Abrupt Decay - how many Decay can they really bring in against us? It's *only* good against our Loxodon Smiter, and most of these lists simply can't afford to bring in a ton of Decays. What's more, it largely comes down to the odds - the Reanimator player has to actually *draw* their decay, there's very good odds that they'll simply throw it into their own yard with Grisly Salvage/Mulch/Faithless Looting/Undercity Informer. You also have to factor in when they manage to decay it - even if they DO, you still wiped out their whole yard and all the Unburial Rites/creatures in it. This is also why I bring in 2-3x Rest in Peace - I have way more actual draw power than they do, if one of them gets Abrupt Decay'd, whatever, I have good odds of simply finding another.
I personally think Faithmender is a very weak choice for us on SB. If your deck runs Centaur Healer as a 3-4x of in the mainboard, like some reanimator decks, you will get more value out of the Faithmender and he will be that much better. Sure, we might Thragtusk for 10 life, but if and only if. He's just very safe for decks that have more built in lifegain already. I'm seeing a lot of lists on MTGO actually opting for 2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice on their sideboard - not to say she's better or worse than Faithmender, but, versus aggro she fills the same role of tanking for you/giving you extra lifegain on anything you play, whether it gains life normally or not.
Esper remains a problematic match up, but i think it's not an impossible match up, an important thing is not waste creatures, one creature at time for the attack and wait his removal. Nephalia Drownyard isn't a problem. TWO Nephalia Drownyard yes. But i can't analyze any good strategy agains it. We just need to hope to be fast enough or play 4x Acidic Slime in the sideboard.
I have yet to try Acidic Slime in the board, but it's definitely something I want to get around to working. You're completely right in that our game plan is to simply not waste creatures, and be as proactive as possible and apply pressure constantly. I personally am torn between an extra 2x Garruk, Primal Hunter or 2x Jace, Memory Adept on the board to fight control decks. While the idea of having a plan B is nice, I just can't see how you can go wrong with starting out on a T3 Primal Hunter, as well as being able to use them all more aggressively/getting the engine going early.
3. How do you found the Jund match up? Actually Jund Aggro, Zombie and midrange are surely the most played decks, so we need a strategy against them. I faced some times the midrange version, and won but i'm really unsure of that match-up. Maybe it's not yet tuned to fight bant, or maybe i have too much fear of it. Bu really never faced zombie or aggro version, so i hope to hear some opinions.
I faced 3 Jund Aggro matchups back to back this past weekend @SCG Classic, Columbia SC as my first matches, they were close, but I don't think they're bad at all, personally. If I lose generally it's more because my deck failed to give me that land drop I needed/they burned one of my mana guys - if I curve out properly, I'm going to win 9 times out of 10 it feels like. This isn't to dismiss them entirely, but our decks don't really interact well against each other, and in matches like that it comes down to does the aggro player just go fast enough, or does the midrange player stomp them? It also depends largely on what removal they actually run, we can assume Abrupt Decay, but I saw Dreadbore from several of them even in G1. I won the first 2-0, 2-1 the second, and 1-2 the last one, because I got greedy and kept a 1 lander =P with acceleration and good 2 drops of course, but, case in point, if you miss those lands you will pay for it. That's not a problem with this archetype specifically though, that's a generic magic issue that effects any midrange deck ever.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
What is everyone's experience when playing against the fast aggro decks like naya blitz and RG aggro? I tested the match in 4 games last night and went 1-3. Wasn't very promising. What can I do to fix this match besides Supreme Verdict?
Read the Hoof There it is article, liked many of the ideas but hated the overall deck. Singular win cons (don't tell me buffed tokens are a win con), super-duper magical christmasland set-up (the problem with Hoof is that you tap down dorks when you want to attack; so the guy forces himself to dilute between ramp and token strategies), vulnerable reanimator tactics, no removal (in fact, no interaction!)... And of course he plays 4 Serenities SB so he could just as well be playing my deck. Wish I knew why he didn't MB them as Serenity doesn't require anything other than pure ramp to work.
What I liked: replacing Farseek with Tracker's Instinct. In fact, Tracker's Instinct as a plan B when **** happens. I could go 8 one drops, 8 three drops (between Smiter and Sages), 3/4 Tracker's Instinct, 3/4 Thragtusks and 4 Serenity.
T1 Mana dork, T2 Sage - T3 you have 7 mana assuming no missed land drops. This is where we're treading in rough hypotheticals, but, T3 Angel of Serenity could be amazing or it could be unimpressive with nothing to remove a lot of the time.
Even across an empty board, I can always rescue my own mana dorks. If they kill my angel, I get my dorks back and start building all over again. This forces an opponent to constantly expend removal for the next big threat. It's why I'm thinking of going back to Armada Wurms in the six drop: it's like, the most cost-effective threat I could find. The only effective threat that comes close would be Thragtusk... which would require about 2/3 Rancors for him to work. And with all those dorks sitting around the board, Sublime Archangel might be welcome?
The whole "8 dorks + 4 Sages" idea might be a whole different deck altogether but I'll keep posting here for a while, see what else I can get.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bringing Turbo-Hydra back to Standard...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
As far as deck building goes I am currently working on tweaks. I am looking into adding Sphinx's Revelation to the deck, not in place of Prime Speaker, but in addition too. The next tournament I plan to attend is next Saturday which is a SCG Super Qualifier. I am worried my current build is trending towards being too top heavy for an event like this, which tends to attract more aggro decks since it will be taking place at a local shop so I have been making two different sets of tweaks to the deck. If there is any interest in the current direction I am taking my decks I'll be more than happy to post them once I finalize a few more slots.
Read the Hoof There it is article, liked many of the ideas but hated the overall deck. Singular win cons (don't tell me buffed tokens are a win con), super-duper magical christmasland set-up (the problem with Hoof is that you tap down dorks when you want to attack; so the guy forces himself to dilute between ramp and token strategies), vulnerable reanimator tactics, no removal (in fact, no interaction!)... And of course he plays 4 Serenities SB so he could just as well be playing my deck. Wish I knew why he didn't MB them as Serenity doesn't require anything other than pure ramp to work.
What I liked: replacing Farseek with Tracker's Instinct. In fact, Tracker's Instinct as a plan B when **** happens. I could go 8 one drops, 8 three drops (between Smiter and Sages), 3/4 Tracker's Instinct, 3/4 Thragtusks and 4 Serenity.
Even across an empty board, I can always rescue my own mana dorks. If they kill my angel, I get my dorks back and start building all over again. This forces an opponent to constantly expend removal for the next big threat. It's why I'm thinking of going back to Armada Wurms in the six drop: it's like, the most cost-effective threat I could find. The only effective threat that comes close would be Thragtusk... which would require about 2/3 Rancors for him to work. And with all those dorks sitting around the board, Sublime Archangel might be welcome?
The whole "8 dorks + 4 Sages" idea might be a whole different deck altogether but I'll keep posting here for a while, see what else I can get.
Gavony is good, but I agree it isn't enough alone, which is why I've been personally running Collective Blessing. That card has single handedly shut down quite a few games for me. Its just a one of, but I feel it adds an additional out.
I was personally a fan of Armada Wurm and was sad to have to cut it. Its a great body with a great ability.
I feel like a lot of the criticism you level against running dorks also applies to Sage, but even more so. I understand you can rescue your dorks with AoS, but whats the point? If those are the best targets for AoS why are you casting it? I can understand their arises situations where you want to apply pressure early, but in my experience AoS is best saved for a time when you can maximize its value. I'll admit my biggest compliant about Sage is that it cannot help cast Garruk, Primal Hunter, which is a major linchpin for this deck. Garruks potential impact on the board makes it worth ensure you hit him as early as possible.
Sage is different from other dorks because it allows you to curve way up, to the seven spot and beyond. In a 24 land deck, hitting four lands and above is quite easy; Sages wants you to make monster plays with Craterhoofs and Avacyn (testing her out as a singleton), something you wouldn't dare do in a deck with just one drop dorks.
The problem is that you almost want to play two games: one in which you invest yourself in finding sage + big creature (the all-in strategy) and one in which you choose mana efficient creatures just in case that you don't. Reading the Hoof there it is article and reading Cassial's post made me realize I wanted to go all-in... Of course I still have reservations. So that's the difference in overall strategies: 4 Trackers instincts to ensure I find my Sages/Angels, and 4Serenity+1Avacyn as end curve (with Cavern of souls naming angels).
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bringing Turbo-Hydra back to Standard...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Update again! First off, I wanted to give a quick tournament write up (in spoilers) on my FNM this past friday, (went 5-0), and just some general thoughts on what our problem/rough matchups seem to be.
Junk Reanimator (oh hell no). Well, my opponent either sucks at shuffling, or his deck hates him, he claims that he had to mull to 4 because he couldn't find lands in his opener, so, free win G1. G2 saw him cheat out an Angel of Serenity on T4, as we all know this deck is capable of, and I couldn't answer it. Unfortunately Junk Rites seems immune or doesn't care at all about Rest in Peace - I ended up merely swapping Detention Sphere again for 2x Syncopate, thinking it would be better to have a chance to counter+exile an Unburial Rites or one of his angels. G3 was actually remarkable, I played first, and had a very strong start with 2 mana dorks. My opponent did the horrible T4 Angel of Serenity again, exiling all but one of my mana guys. I topdecked a Prime Speaker Zegana, thinking to myself this was going to be embarassing and all kinds of awful, whatever, I had no other play to make, so I cast her as a 2/2 and drew 2 - land and an Angel of Serenity of my own. Honestly the best single answer to Junk Rites abusing Angels is to respond with Angels of your own, and I did exactly that, my opponent proceeded to simply durdle and dig for another but couldn't find anything. We ended up playing a 4th game since I was feeling generous and told him I didn't feel like the first one really counted, so we played it out and counted the 4th - it ended up being a very long and grindy win for me that went to time - raw draw power beats digging in the long run.
R3 - 2-1
UWR Tempo. I was surprised to discover my opponent was not playing the typical UWR Flash, I saw an Augur of Bolas followed up with a Spectral Flight backed with charms and a Geist of Saint Traft - I immediately treated him like aggro and we raced. He probably could have beat me G1, had I not played a very clutch Cyclonic Rift on his Augur, getting rid of the Spectral Flight. Post board I assumed he'd try to go even more aggro, knowing what I saw - Geist, Boros Reckoner, Augur of Bolas, however there wasn't much I wanted to bring in - Feeling of Dread cannot target a Geist of Saint Traft anyway. I made the usual swaps of boarding out Garruk PH for Trostani, and changed Detention Sphere x2 for 2x Syncopate. If I recall, G2 was over very quickly for me, as I kept a very sketchy hand with no acceleration. I feel this is fine sometimes, especially if you won G1 and your opponent doesn't completely nutdraw you - as sometimes they will win even when you have a perfect hand if they're on play post board. G3 I got the quick acceleration, and took a good 30 seconds to think hard on whether I should go for a T3 Thragtusk or save it - my opponent had 2 mana untapped. I went for it, and he did not have a Syncopate for me. I only had a Restoration Angel left in hand, and waited for the right time to do it, turns out he brought in Dissipate for me, but it wasn't enough for him. I still had yet to see anything from my sideboard do anything in any of these games, although I do remember drawing a Syncopate of my own at the end, I never used it, but it was nice knowing I had it if needed.
R4 - 1-0
Bant Control (groan). We ended up going to time in game one, no joke. My opponent played fairly well, although he admitted he was new to Bant Control, and took his sweet time on everything. Like every round so far, he played first, and I hadn't won a single die roll all night. I kept a hand with no acceleration, but it curved out fine and got there. Without going into too much of the clusterhell of a board we had, most notable moments (in order):
Opponent quickly lead with a Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, and slowed me down when he got the Farseek start and I was on the draw. Garruk, Primal Hunter was single handedly able to keep Tamiyo from going ultimate, although he found a Detention Sphere for Garruk. Best moment here was a Thragtusk and topdecked Gavony Township swinging for exactly 6 at Tamiyo, killing her. That didn't give me the momentum at all though, by the time the game was over, he had gone through 4x Terminus, and 3x Supreme Verdict, and a full 4x Detention Sphere on all of my Garruk, Primal Hunter + 1x Angel of Serenity. What ended up winning the day? Double Gavony Township activations on whatever creatures I could find. The moral of the story here is, don't throw away your creatures or get greedy at any point, ignore the Bant control player's 50+ life total, and the #1 focus of the game is to just keep running them out of cards.
R5 -
Naya midrange.These were some absolutely epic games, vs our top player/head judge. I played first for a change, and curved out strong with T3 Thragtusk + T4 Primal Hunter +draw 5. Surprisingly, Naya stayed in it for a very long time, with a lot of Restoration Angel + Thragtusk blinks + Huntmaster of the Fells chump blocks - the clear game breaker for me was overloading Cyclonic Rift at the end. G2 was very lopsided for him, I started fast with 2x mana-dorks, and found a Gavony Township, but before I could activate it on my next turn, my opponent slammed down a T3 Acidic Slime and nuked it. I kept a light 2 lander, but with 2 mana-dorks (and so I had to play the Gavony when I did), so I was promptly mana-screwed and couldn't do much, and then he showed me an overloaded Mizzium Mortars for game. G3 was our epic battle, I swapped the 2x Detention Sphere (again) for 2x Syncopate, and thought to myself how weird this felt not having anything to bring in for any of these games all night. G3 went pretty much like G1, except better for him - he used a Primal Hunter aggressively, kept me chump blocked all game with Huntmasters, and brought in his own Angel of Serenity from the board, as well as Selesnya Charm on my own Angel of Serenity. I would say Prime Speaker Zegana is what single handedly won the day, giving me replacement Angels and threats, and finding my Cyclonic Rift again. Even then, the Rift didn't blow him out completely, he re-cast his Angel trying to stabilize, but I finally freaking got to play Syncopate as my last play for the night, with him promptly scooping when I showed it.
TLDR: My biggest takeaway from all of this has to be that the mainboard for this deck archetype is very solid as-is. Many of my games were close, but were simply won by curving out properly, much of the sideboard tech I never saw or it was irrelevant by the time I did see it. If anything, we should work on narrowing the sideboard tech to a select few silver bullets for "more problematic" matchups, whatever they may be, instead of trying to make a few generic swaps. What this also tells me, is that it is possible to "over-sideboard" a few problem matchups as well, since it seems that we don't have to change much in the main, more on this later.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Going forward - there's a few things I want to touch base on, and let me get your feedback on please! I think there's a few things worth reviewing from the ground up, so here goes;
Lands -
I personally strongly prefer 25 lands over what I see as the common 24 (on MTGO and what not) for this archetype. My reasoning for this is to cut 1x of the Arbor Elfs - he's quite simply bad as a 4-of staple IMO. The other reason, 4x basic Forest aren't nearly consistent enough with him as a 4-of, he really wants at least 5. Even then, you have about a 1 in 4 chance of Arbor Elf not being able to accelerate you in the first few turns of the game. I feel like simply reducing him to a 3-of is the quick band-aid solution for now that works - I'd rather run more actual colored sources in the deck instead of going up to 5 basic Forest.
That all being said - it's a necessary evil. Mana dorks are here primarily because having 7x mana dorks overall gives us more keepable / better opening hands. We can still gradually get there without the acceleration, but it makes a difference too often to discount entirely. In order to slam down a T3 Thragtusk followed by a T4 Prime Speaker Zegana, you have to also not miss any land drops, which I find to be the primary reason my deck stumbles sometimes. I'm sure there's plenty of you that can relate to that time where you're stuck on 5 and wanted to cast Zegana that very turn, and Zegana usually gets the blame for it. Or I'll hear people telling me that Zegana should only be a 2-of because I couldn't cast her on curve this one awful scenario in a given game. How about we help her do her job better, instead of blaming the deck stumbling for a turn on her?
Also, I swear by at least 1-2x Cavern of Souls, which isn't anything new, but it is very tech to color fix your Prime Speaker sometimes or Angel. Making them counter-proof is very relevant against any control deck, where the outcome of the game hinges sometimes on you resolving that critical Angel or Prime Speaker to pull ahead. It's simply great as a 2-of since it really does help color fix in a pinch.
Lands and regards to Sideboarding -
The last thing regarding lands that I'd like to touch on, we have perhaps a very unique position in this archetype that I've noticed in my own games, and this may be due to playing the 25 land version. I've rarely ever boarded out Angel of Serenity or Prime Speaker Zegana - especially even against hyper-aggro. At most I've boarded out one of each and brought in perhaps 2x Feeling of Dread. The thing we have to remember is, when we're making these sideboard changes to make our deck more defensive, we aren't usually reducing our land count or mana-dorks, but we'll readily lower the curve and cut Primal Hunters for Centaur Healer(s) and cheaper "anti-aggro" cards. In other words, the thing to remember in boarded games, you *still* have the capacity to vomit out T3 Thrags and T4-5 Angels of Serenity if you get lucky. While this seems extremely greedy, I will admit, I think it's worth it because there are few aggro decks that can close out a game if you Angel them, it is a powerful and hard to deal with card at the moment. If the aggro player opts to kill a mana dork or two, that's usually fine, we have the land count to ensure we still get there - or our sideboard defensive cards buy us time to play the trump cards. If anything, long story short, I'd rather leave all of my trump cards in, and simply add some cards to stall the opponent better to ensure I have time to resolve the trumps.
3x Mainboard flex slots -
This should probably be our primary point of discussion/focus at this point. There really isn't a right or wrong 3 flex slots, but getting the most accurate ones or most relevant ones across multiple matchups can only give us extra percentage points across the field. We have a very powerful mainboard, and I feel the only thing keeping this archetype firmly from T1 status is the best combination of utility that supports it most. I went with a 2x Detention Sphere and 1x Cyclonic Rift split at my last FNM, just to see how it would do. I can't tell you enough how disappointed I was with the D-Spheres, in pretty much every game. It *seems* like the perfect catch all card, and in some situations you would definitely want one, but in every situation I found that I'd be best off if I could've just countered whatever the problem card was.
Andrew Shrout - (aka JohnnyHotSauce on MTGO) (whom piloted his own rough Prime Speaker Bant list recently to a 1st place finish SCG Classic in Louisville) is now recently opting for 3x Syncopate main. I definitely agree with this change, but I can't stomach his 24 land, 5 forest, 4x of Arbor Elf build which only has 8 blue sources. Having Syncopate in hand in a game without Farseek, you're counting on the deck to give you a blue source, and that is asking for inconsistency. There are plenty of games where you start with either a Farseek, or mana-dude, but the usual scenario is that you get one or the other, and I'm simply being real when I say that color screw will happen when you can't afford it to if only running 8 blue and relying on Syncopate to save you if you're behind. Definitely would need to tinker with the manabase to include more base blue if going this route.
The other route that seems very viable is to main 2-3x Selesnya Charm. As many posters have noted, this deals with a lot of problem cards for us, and acknowledges the deck's weakness to Olivia Voldaren. Selesnya Charm also has the benefit of rarely being color screwed, unlike Syncopate, early on. If for no other reason I'd agree with a full 2-3 charms simply to hedge the wildly popular Junk Reanimator matchup better in our favor.
Anyway, I'll be lurking and answering questions, thanks for bearing with me here and getting through that wall- :> Thanks everyone again who's still hanging out in here.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I still am going back in forth on whether or not I want three Angel of Serenity main. I did cut one now because I went down to six mana dorks instead of eight. I am not a fan of three Zeganas simply because this deck already has to mulligan pretty aggressively and I almost always have to pitch a hand that has two of them. I do however run the full four Garruk, Primal Hunter currently. While I like Relentless I just feel that Primal Hunter is an all around stronger play. I also now mainboard two Sigarda, Host of Herons. She plays well with our goal to play a five drop on turn three, is great against Jund and adds resiliency against control.
I have now added an Alchemist's Refuge and a Moorland Haunt to the deck. I have cut Gavony completely and moved Collective Blessing to the board. I have enjoy Moorland Haunt so far and am considering running two and squeezing Collective Blessing back into the main. Refuge does feel a little to techy at times, but it does give you the chance to play your threats on your opponents turn to dodge board sweepers and give your beats pseudo-haste.
@Cassial
I agree Rest in Peace can be less than stellar against Junk Rites, but it is helpful for certain versions that run Liliana and Lingering Souls in order to limit their ability to grind out the game. It feels less than great against control, even when they have a ton of flashback spells and Snapcaster because it only delays the inevitable and doesn't actually provide any card advantage. It also shuts down your Angels of Serenity and for me turns off my ability to use Moorland Haunt. I have it cut for now, but I may return to it sometime in the future.
Here are a few cards I am currently considering for the sideboard:
Plummet- Kills Olivia, Angel of Serenity, Restoration Angel and Thundermaw Hellkite. Right now there are a ton of viable targets. I am looking at one, maybe two.
Simic Charm- Bounce and hexproof are nice and the additional cost doesn't hurt our deck. I might run one in place of a Cyclonic Rift in the board to act as a tempo spell and a pseudo counterspell.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage- There seems to be a flux of Midrange decks in the meta and Tamiyo does a great job of forcing them to slow down and over extend. This card might work better in builds like mine where you have the option to bring in board wipes.
Snapcaster Mage- The darkside so to speak. I've noticed that there are some matches where I bring in a lot of spells. One or two of these may help smooth out games against control. It also makes the next card easier to play.
Psychic Spiral- I didn't run this card before because as a one of it seemed weak. I did not have enough counterspells to force it through and I had no Snapcasters to rescue it from the yard. I might add it now if I do add in the Snaps because between the addition of them and the syncopates I increase my chances of being able to force it through. I'm not sure if Drownyard is enough of a threat to basically dedicate three sideboard slots to it.
That's where my deck is currently at. I hope to have the main and sideboard finalized before this Saturday. I'll let you guys know what I end up going with.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Did some testing today against an esper spirit/token deck. Play of the day was overloaded Cyclonic Rift bouncing 5 Spirit Tokens, a Drogskol Captain, and 2 D-Spheres (on a Loxodon Smiter and Angel of Serenity).
Honestly, Rift is one of my favorite cards in the deck, and I love playing 2 copies of it.
Glad to see we still have some people in here *actually* playing! :>
Went 5-0 at my FNM this week, on a hot streak now, going to take it to our PTQ at my shop too tomorrow.
Since I have to keep last minute testing the deck, I'll keep it short, first round was a free win against a total jank Orzhov deck, but my remaining 4 matches were against some of our best players at the shop.
2nd round - Humanimator
3rd round - UWR Flash, burn variant featuring Guttersnipe! Caught me completely off guard G1 and blew me up.
5th round - RWB Aristocrats aggro, down to the wire close games, most powerful MVP of the day - Trostani, Selesnya's Voice from sideboard, who is now making her way main! She was always my waifu, with her big blocking butt, and always dependable and keepin me safe, even if I have more fun with Prime Speaker Zegana ...at least casting her. :>
I'd love to hear all of your feedback, matchups, what you think were the roughest and what not. In the spirit of evolving the deck, I've been rigorously testing some pretty drastic changes and will try to do a fairly thorough write-up later..
Thanks to everyone for sticking in here, I've been keeping our thread very sporadically un-updated, mostly due to moving IRL and having next to zero time to do as much hands on playtesting as I'd like. That being said what playtesting time I do get has been hardcore and in paper.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Hello guys, I've been experimenting with my bant list to get ready for the standard season but I didn't have your explosive success at my fnm, granted it was my first standard tournament in like 10 years or so, and I wasn't really expert with the deck but I've found some issues.Onto the report:
a small tournament with I think 11 people and 4 rounds:
Round 1 vs UWR assemble the legion 2-0 for me
We were both pretty new, but I had the edge of knowing his deck since it was played by a friend, I went to an easy game 1 win by stalling the boros reckoner/augur of bolas early and then won mid game thanks to thragtusks and my better creatures. Game 2 since I went fairly low game one I sided trostani, the acidic slime, the ray, and the feelings of dread since I was expecting as happened the geist coming out of the side to go earlier aggro, and doubling up on the assemble the legions.Went easily on a turn 3 trostani which won me the game.
Round 2 vs human/werewolf RG aggro 0-2
This was embarassing to say the least, first game I had to mulligan to 6 to see a playable hand(mana dork landx2 smiter restoration) he aggroed me, I stalled up to turn 6-7, he killed me since I draw no thragtusk/enough mana for serenity, generally I could've played better so half my fault half the matchup I'd say.Game 2 I mulliganed again(no lands hander), into again a decent hand, I then got manascrewed at 3 lands and 1 mana dork which he killed it with a spear since he had an idea I was getting mana screwed, he then won easily since with 3 mana the deck just isn't there.I did side again trying to combat aggro with feeling of dread/garruk relentless/trostani.His combat tricks to flip all the humans and generally the condition of having to cast 1 spell or they flip has been a huge pain in all tests...
Round 3 gruul aggro 0-2
Same deal as before, first game I keep a 7 hand that is decent enough to survive the early aggro, but he has a super explosive hand hitting me turn 2-3-4(can't remember, but pretty quick) for 10 trample damage...I die at turn 4 drawing again no lands(kept a 2 land 1 mana dork 1 farseek hand and proceeded to draw onnly 6-7 cmc creatures...) no thragtusk and nothing much to say.Game 2 same deal, no side card came out and had to mulligan to 5 to see a quick hand, got trample for 15 turn 3 or 4...
I was basically out but so I conceded 0-2 to my friend that had chance of entering we played for fun
Round 4 vs omniscience/unexpected results deck
I lost again 0-2 even if I conceded since well, I had no way of closing games quick enough, he just kept getting life with the enchant land card which I can't remember the name, and comboed me off before he was dead.Supreme verdict kept me in check every game even if I didn't jus tthrow up my hand into the game.I sided out a few mana dorks in game 2 since he was just verdicting them, and I've seen no side cards.
I don't know the winner of the FNM but I know final was somethin junk with obzedat, vs the werewolf RG deck.
I have to say I was not exactly impressed on my version of the deck my reasoning on selesnya was that everyone and their mother was playing a junk reanimator and I did suffer the angels/behemoth(though you usually die anyway) so I've chosen that charm instead of the azorius/simic ones, or generally other cards.I love the cyclonic rift even in 1x since if it comes online with 6 mana is usually gg right there, side was an experiment trying to hate out bant enchant(which was there, just didn't get paired) since and generally my plan against aggro was garruk relentless/trostani/feeling, which wasn't definitely enough, even in the game where dread came out it didn't do enough to save me...Syncopate I didn't get a chance of trying, same as jace, and I believe the 1x of acidic isn't going to cut it, I really felt powerless against aggro though with this build, the earliest thing that comes online is the smiter, and while being really strong as a 4/4 sometimes isn't enough alone.Worst of all is that I feel we have to mulligan aggressively to 4-5 in some situations because the deck tends not only to have issues against aggro. but somtimes even with 25 lands/4farseek/7 mana dorks, I just don't get the ramp going up and the deck just folds.
My friends also believe I'm too slow on closing games, they feel I should add either master biomancer and try and run the more aggro version, the bantomacer maybe by also adding geist of saint traft/sigarda, host of herons(they aren't convinced by that though) or just a craterhoof behemoth.
I'm unsure on what to change, my meta has a naya blitz, gruul and rg werewolf, a lot of reanimators(which I feel we have atleast an even game if not the upper hand) a bant enchant, and probably an esper control or uwr flash, or generally a couple unknown decks, I'm feeling like I'm out of place with this list since the aggro just runs me over.
They suggested me to get back the strangleroot geist as a 2cmc drop, or change the selesnya charm/cyclonic, or well, they aren't convinced about the list.
Am I the only one facing this strong issues against aggro? Might be I failed somethin in my 75 + bad plays =P
Thanks for the help anyway!
edit: I forgot, I was thinking of running 2-3x blind obedience in main even(surely in my side) since I guess that if it comes online T2 against aggro, I can get enough time to actually get better chances, ideas?
I can see the problems we might have with rest in peace but is there anything that is as effective to use in it's place?
i also see the last few lists are just running garruk, primal hunter rather than running a split of this and garruk relentless. is it wrong to play the split (as i was thinking of doing)?
some lists are running detention spheres main and side. what about running oblivion ring in the side instead of detention sphere. would that be a good choice?
how has blind obedience been holding up in the side?
I like Rest in Peace. I'm just not sure it is a snap inclusion. It will ultimately depend on what version you choose to run and what you expect to play. Liliana of the Veil can be damning at times because she chips away at your hand while progressing your opponents strategy. Things like Lingering Souls can be hard to fight through because it can act as a couple of turn fog that can require you to over extend into a sweeper. Personally when I run it I run a 2/1 split between it and tormod's crypt simply to make sure that my hate isn't all weak to the same cards like Ray of Revelation
Which Garruk you run is up to personal preference, deck build and what you expect to face. Early on when I first started running G/W ramp I had fourteen ramp spells. I ran four Garruk, Primal Hunter because I built my deck to hit him or Thragtusk turn three consistently. Now it is not as clear cut. For me personally I find as I cut dorks I want to mix up my Garruks more. Relentless has a lot going for him, but he has a lot of weaknesses as well, namely Restoration Angel is a fairly effective answer to him. The more card draw you run the less you rely on Primal Hunter to power through to gas. I am still debating how I feel about Sphinx's Revelation, but as the numbers in my maindeck increase my number of Garruk, Primal Hunter decreases since I need his draw less and less. Both are great against control. I find Primal Hunter tends to be better against midrange decks where Garruk Relentless provides a nice way to clog the board or snipe a threat against aggro. Also it is worth noting that the more utility lands you run the harder it is to hit Primal Hunter.
I prefer Detention Sphere over Oblivion Ring because neither is seeing much play. As detention sphere's clause becomes more relevant a need for a mix arises. Right now I enjoy Detention Sphere's ability to snag multiples, but admittedly I have encountered situations where it has been a slight deterrent, usually when it comes to beast tokens. If you run three I would consider a 2/1 Sphere, O-Ring split to be a good compromise, but if you are only running two I would just run Sphere, especially if you also have [CARD]Cyclonic Rift[/CARD.
I have never ran Blind Obedience so I cannot answer your final question.
Hope that helps.
I did not make the SCG Super Qualifier event this past weekend because I was unaware it was at a Con. Truth be told I didn't want to drop $25 for the tournament plus another $10 to get into the convention to play for an invitation to an event that I could not attend (I have no legacy deck and I believe both are played at SCG Invitationals). I am still repping the deck hard to anyone who will listen however. I've been sold on this deck since I took my funky home brew to a first place victory at a decent sized Gameday Gatecrash.
I'll try to have something new in the next couple of days. I'm still hammering out some numbers, but spoiler alert it involves Yeva, Nature's Herald. If I get the chance to attend a tournament Weds or Thurs I'll let you guys know my results.
@Sonne - welcome on board! I appreciate the time you took to do a write-up, and thought it was quite good actually, I'll try to give some feedback on each individual point and we'll go line by line:
Round 1 vs UWR assemble the legion 2-0 for me
We were both pretty new, but I had the edge of knowing his deck since it was played by a friend, I went to an easy game 1 win by stalling the boros reckoner/augur of bolas early and then won mid game thanks to thragtusks and my better creatures. Game 2 since I went fairly low game one I sided trostani, the acidic slime, the ray, and the feelings of dread since I was expecting as happened the geist coming out of the side to go earlier aggro, and doubling up on the assemble the legions.Went easily on a turn 3 trostani which won me the game.
Seems like you got the bases covered fine on that one, check.
Round 2 vs human/werewolf RG aggro 0-2
This was embarassing to say the least, first game I had to mulligan to 6 to see a playable hand(mana dork landx2 smiter restoration) he aggroed me, I stalled up to turn 6-7, he killed me since I draw no thragtusk/enough mana for serenity, generally I could've played better so half my fault half the matchup I'd say.Game 2 I mulliganed again(no lands hander), into again a decent hand, I then got manascrewed at 3 lands and 1 mana dork which he killed it with a spear since he had an idea I was getting mana screwed, he then won easily since with 3 mana the deck just isn't there.I did side again trying to combat aggro with feeling of dread/garruk relentless/trostani.His combat tricks to flip all the humans and generally the condition of having to cast 1 spell or they flip has been a huge pain in all tests...
First off, I feel your pain, I flooded and did nothing against Naya Blitz one round playing at my PTQ (more on that in a later post). It cannot be stressed enough though, the more you play the more you'll see this is the case, but aggro decks have bad draws and consistency hiccups sometimes too, as frustrating as it is to lose to their nutdraws when we flop - tending to make it look very black and white. The odds are also in our favor sometimes when we T3 Trostani and absolutely lock aggro out easily. Those factors aside, Trostani isn't enough on her own - I strongly recommend 3x Aetherize in the sideboard at least for the 8 mana dork, more proactive versions of our deck. Feeling of Dread is definitely more flexible if it fits your playstyle, and can be used offensively against enemy midrange decks (I'd rather just Rift overload in those matches, personally). The thing with Aetherize is, I just plain think it's extremely good right now against the Blitz decks, anything with Burning-Tree Emissary, Experiment One, Champion of the Parish, all of these decks that win by swarming as fast as possible. It's certainly less effective against bigger aggro decks, but it's the fast swarmers that try to go under us that give the most trouble I think.
Round 3 gruul aggro 0-2
Same deal as before, first game I keep a 7 hand that is decent enough to survive the early aggro, but he has a super explosive hand hitting me turn 2-3-4(can't remember, but pretty quick) for 10 trample damage...I die at turn 4 drawing again no lands(kept a 2 land 1 mana dork 1 farseek hand and proceeded to draw onnly 6-7 cmc creatures...) no thragtusk and nothing much to say.Game 2 same deal, no side card came out and had to mulligan to 5 to see a quick hand, got trample for 15 turn 3 or 4...
Yeah, sounds like luck wasn't on your side that night.
Round 4 vs omniscience/unexpected results deck
I lost again 0-2 even if I conceded since well, I had no way of closing games quick enough, he just kept getting life with the enchant land card which I can't remember the name, and comboed me off before he was dead.Supreme verdict kept me in check every game even if I didn't jus tthrow up my hand into the game.I sided out a few mana dorks in game 2 since he was just verdicting them, and I've seen no side cards.
The ability to close out games is something I'm working very closely on, definitely more on this later too. All of these things considered, I think your deck was fine and the card choices were solid, what's happening is the meta is moving and we need to make some significant changes I believe.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I am thinking of trying Jace, Architect of Thought in place of Sphinx's Revelation. Jace can stem the bleeding by reducing each creature in aggro down to 1/2. Let alone he can help find lands in order to cast all our spells more consistently.
My list I am looking at testing this Friday at FNM is this
Excluding round 1 where I failed totally in every possible aspect, I'm still disappointed by how my games go, I'm still making mistakes but I don't feel the deck is going how it should...
Round 1 0-1 vs junk reanimator
I keep a hand with pilgrim 2 lands(pool/gavony) and the perfect god hand, only issue no smiter.I then proceed to stay ar 3 mana for 3 turns, I do play some things, but the first 2 lands I see are gavony townships, I die to centaur and thrag beats.I was probably sleeping since game 2 I don't side my GY hate, turn 4 serenity into gg, I did fail so let's not consider this round tbh.
Round 2 1-1 against esper control
I'm playing against a kid that was probably not familiar with the deck, and is playing a bit slowly, so I'm not getting my hopes up, went 2-0 easily in the end since the deck really went in all the right directions barring a mulligan in game 2.
Round 3 1-2 vs omnidoor
I was expecting a bit of combo but game 1 I was just 10 damage short of killing him, couldn't do much with his miracle terminus against my serenity...Game 2, he totally goes for a beat strategy and well, he beats better than me apparently, he wins at 23 and I die since I had to mulligan to 5 to see a land.Yeah with 25 lands+4farseek+7mana dorks.That's standard for the deck apparently...(more to come)
Round 4 vs bw zombies 2-2
He starts by laughing since I destroyed him in our previous games for fun, and then he proceeds to win game 1 since I had to mulligan to 6 to see a land.I missed 4 land drops before seeing the second one and dieing.Game 2 we both mulligan to 5(this time I saw some lands but unplayable hands withe verything 5+ cmc in my hand and not enough mana to get there) I win 1-1 just barely.Game 3 I again mulligan to 6 to see something that isn't a land this time. I win at 3 life with a huge cyclonic rift which is probably our best card in most games if we overload it in a timely fashion.
Round 5 vs jund
Oh boy...we both mulligan to 6 and I keep a hand without smite but otherwise perfect, he does a turn 3 liliana into a turno 4 rakdos return, I die slowly after since my hand is empty and he has more threats.Game 2 I keep my 7 with a loxodon smiter, and we play, he miracles a bonfire, proceeds to get me to 3 life, while I keep him at 4(gavony township+ mana flood + resto angel 7/8) he topdecks a removal for the angel, passes, I draw a land, he draws a return and wins.
Aaand I'm out again of the tournament.
Now I'm misplaying here and there which is surely causing me more issues, since I'm not familiar with the deck but I feel there's something that is going on wrong generally with the deck:
1)Mana dorks are awful after the first few turns, we all know that, and most of my lost games outside of this tournament report are due to those, or mana flood.I like to run 25 lands to cast the fatties, but I tend to have horrible topdecks when zegana/garruk for some reasons aren't there.
2)The deck tends to have big swings, either you just slaughter them, or is unplayable, I've had some good games which were reasonable but most of the times I either don't have mana/have too much/I just don't get threats.Unless you reliably get good starting hands, mulligans are a plenty, I think it's also a matchup issue, if I have to mulligan twice against aggro because the hands are not playable, it's just impossible to play.
3)Side issues, might be just me but siding is kinda hard, because most of the deck usually has to stay, I usually tend to work on zegana/garruks/mana dorks/charms, because the rest usually needs to be there..am I just bad ?
Now this is MY experience, I might just be bad, so I'd love to learn more on what to do with the deck, there's plenty of upsides too:
1)cyclonic rift is AMAZING, againt everything but harder control that has the board semi empty, and even there, you can just have them pick up back the angels/augurs/snapcasters and swing for lethal if they tapped out of ir you are sure you can afford it.I'm trying to play more of these but unsure what to cut.Without overload is still nice but not sure how much, generally I get it pretty late or hold it for key moments.
2)It can get back into almost any game with a few key moves, which is harder to say for other decks I'd ssay, I've changed back games I felt were lost just by a couple good plays.I'm a really fan of that, rewards the skilled plays instead of just throwing your hand on the table
3)Almost any card that isn't a mana dork or land isn't dead and just does things.When they are dead draws excluding bad cases they still do some work...
4)Gavony is amaing(but I don't like the 3x...think I'm going to cut to 2 to avoid mana color issues...yeah.)wins games alone when the board stalls, if it wasn't so dead when you need coloured mana...
There was also another guy playing th kansas city version of bant, but he lost too before top 8, I think that there's some rough edges, mostly there needs to be a bit better consistency, I'm considering dumping the mana dorks and work on adding more low CMC threats, or answers, it's pretty rough to have only 2x selesnya and 1 cyclonic as answers outside of our creatures...sideboard not considered.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage nostalgic, WUB Fish control/aggro addicted.
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.
Greetings again friends- I promise I haven't abandoned ship/thread, I've been moving IRL and without internets a lot lately.
Anyway, I did make FNM last week, went 4-1, again, losing to only Reanimator. Is anyone else as fed up as I am with how at least once in every 3 games they just flip the nuts and get a T4 Angel of Serenity? I would normally not mind so much, in the sense that "well, some decks just have nutdraws" yeah, that's aggro, not so much midrange, unless it's well, reanimator! Seriously though, this entire past month I've played, every single reanimator opponent I've played has had one game getting the T4 Angel - at least they all went to 3 games and some were close, is about the only thing positive I can say to that.
So anyway, let's get constructive here - I'd like to highlight Memory's Journey against them, definitely as a 3-of in the board for me now. If you haven't tried it, try it, is all I can say. Special mention to Memory's Journey for shuffling back not only my opponent's Craterhoof Behemoth, but the Sever the Bloodline he revealed, either of which would've wrecked me in the late stages of the game we were in.
I'm currently at a crossroads with my own deck and the directions we can go in - I've seen a lot of the controllier Prime Speaker Bant decks without mana-dorks putting up great results (Thanks for the links And3h!), and the breakout mana-dork heavy versions are still going strong it seems. I myself have not played the controllier version yet, but would like to if for no other reason than to get a feel firsthand and see which of the two decks has better pros/cons.
My only suggestion for those running the controllier version, and I noticed in the latest SCG 4th place Bant deck (Rick Meditz) - if you are using the controllier version, are you still or are you not running Gavony Township? I ask this in all seriousness, as somebody who plays 2-3 of them in the mana-dork version, and doesn't feel it's near high impact enough/relevant enough of the time. I just can't see with how that few creatures in the deck, main and/or side, Gavony would ever be worth it, except in corner case scenarios.
It may sound like an utter christmas-land scenario or thinking, but why not Alchemist's Refuge instead? Instant speed Detention Sphere or Supreme Verdict sounds like a great way to beat Reanimator to me. As much as I (personally) want to stick with the "big aggro" version of Prime Speaker, Supreme Verdict is just one of those power cards that being in these colors allows us to play, and would be an edge over GWB that they don't have.
@And3h - how have the Gyre Sages been actually doing for you? I'm reluctant to just add them into a stock build, I see the upside, but I'm personally thinking they need to be built around from the ground up.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
So, I figured I'd share my Prime-Speaker List here. I don't have a lot to say about individual matches because I actually let a friend of mine pilot it last week while I piloted my Grixis deck instead, but he went 5-0 with the deck for first place. I got to talk to him a little afterwards and we were able to come up with a few changes for the deck, but overall he was really happy with the build.
After the tournament we got to talk a little about performance. My meta is really heavy on Naya Blitz, fyi. We both agreed that the healers were essential in some number but may try swapping one of them over to a wolfir avenger. Azorious Charm was underwhelming so one should be replaced with a Syncopate and the other should go to a Selesnya Charm. From the sideboard Craterhoofs aren't needed. I figured I'd swap out Angels into Craterhoofs in control matchups, but he said it wasn't worth it so, they should change to another Genesis and another Verdict. Anyways... That's where my build is at at the moment.
EDIT: I just realized that I had a typo in my list. I only run 2 Yeva.
Hi all. Ive been playing around with this idea for a week now, but sadly cant get to a FNM until 12/4/13 which sucks, but will hopefully get some good insights from here...
This is my take on it. Ive been browsing many other lists, and found that mine was getting closer and closer to some, but this is as close as I want to get now.
Mulligan to 5 does not significantly reduce your effectiveness either.
The synergy in here is fantastic, and I think is the Bant-ramps strongest point. No card (dorks excepted) is a bad topdeck lategame.
My wincons would be Garruks ultimate and the Angels. Im not sure which I prefer yet - Angel of Serenity is cool, and usefull, but I run 3 board wipes and 3 O-Ring/Sphere to make up for her absence. The Angelic Skirmisher is a killer. Vigilance my turn, only attack when safe, then Lifelink their turn, however you wanna roll, shes a game-changer!
Rather than running Thragtusk try Trostani, Selesnya's Voice[/card] Not so immediate benefit, but a turn earlier and everything that comes in afterwards boosts you. And loves Garruk
Im keeping Cavern of Souls as I can name whatever i need to get my mana fix for that turn or the next, and i really REALLY hate my fatties being countered...
Gyre Sage I love, unless you have nothing to follow him with to evolve. My ideal would be to drop a Smiter just after, then everything from then on is ridiculous. Again links with Garruk and the general theme.
Rather than Verdict, i'll run Divine Reckoning as I can retain a key card, then O Ring or Sphere their chosen "saviour". Even if i cant Sphere, or Ring, the next turn will see me way out ahead.
Id appreciate help with sideboarding, its always been a tricky one. Totally meta-dependant i know, but still...
Anywhoo I urge you to test this deck to see how montrous it becomes after turn 4. Its not uncommon to have 5 or 6 fatties and to have gained huge life...
The sideboard list is not accurate - im unsure how to construct it - need to anti-aggro (boros humans and gruul) with rare control.
The biomancers are not strictly neccessary, but they make for a much more resillient deck. If you get 2 out, the Garruks beast plus trostani is insane.
Ive only playtested this on a virtual tabletop, solo, but it seems huge, so long as you live to see 4 mana.
I'm going to (hopefully) take some time this afternoon and I'll write up an in-depth report on my PTQ experience. Finished 4-3 for the day in 28th out of 80 something people. And I was sitting pretty at table #5 until two Reanimators in a row happened!
The long and short of it is, I didn't feel as if I had any real losses that day, *cough* T4 Angel of Serenity from 2 Reanimator opponents. 7 Round swiss, lost to 2 Reanimators, went 2-0 in a lot of rounds, and then the last anticlimatic game of the day was ruined by Naya Blitz, and me failing to draw anything except lands and mana dorks two games in a row. Hey, it happens to everyone in there at least once, right? Had to hit me sooner or later, and I was having great consistency throughout the day otherwise.
Again, I don't say I don't feel as if I had any "real" losses to sound arrogant/disrespectful of my opponents or whatever, I simply mean it to say that I didn't feel as if I was completely out of any of the given games. This should really underscore the point that we have a strong deck and tools on our hands, all that is needed is more refinement.
I'll also post the list I took for you folks, bit of a disclaimer at first though. I had very little time to test some very last minute and radical changes I wanted to try at the PTQ; overall I think the deck did fine, but it didn't have the "flow" or the well-tuned feel I strive for. I was anticipating a field entirely of Aggro, and was very paranoid about Human Reanimator (what a joke now, they've all but dissapeared). Why? I'm glad you asked! Simply put, our deck has very few ways to disrupt/interact with Humanimator - we simply have to put the screws on them and race them faster, or they combo out and win. With that in mind, I set out to create my mainboard an absolute BIG AGGRO deck; mainboarded primarily against aggro and other midrange - I wanted to be proactive, first and foremost. I'll have to explain some of the choices below too.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Quick post on explaining some of my card choices, this is purely for those interested in the why behind the PTQ list.
First off - why I dropped Thragtusk entirely, and did it make a positive difference? I have wondered for quite awhile now, if the all-powerful Thragtusk is actually not well positioned in the meta anymore. Ultimately, it didn't make enough of a difference, but it felt like a move in the right direction.
My reasoning is going to be a bit long winded, but it was definitely a bit of a gamble and I wanted to see just *how* off the deep end I was going.
I'll make a simple comparison, Centaur Healer vs Loxodon Smiter = Thragtusk vs Vorapede. Yes, they all have extremely different capabilities and interactions, but at face value, Thragtusk is not a standalone powerful hitter in midrange vs midrange matchups. I wanted something that would actually further my game plan and help me win against the other big decks.
I also fully feel that Thragtusk is a pillar if playing GR, simply because of Kessig Wolf Run. In a deck with Gavony Township however, as it's flagship late-game value grinding land, I couldn't help but feel one of these two are just not pulling their weight. 9 times out of 10, the Beast token left behind by my Thrags would become absolutely irrelevant, and it would take so many Gavony activations to actually *make* my board state *better*.
Is this really Thragtusk's fault though? Or is he in the wrong deck, or is it Gavony Township's fault? I say none of those, but I do strongly feel that Gavony Township as a 3-of needs more high-impact "swarm strategy" catalysts such as Geist-Honored Monk perhaps - not the correct/better creature, but it would have more impact with this land choice.
So obviously Vorapede doesn't play well with Gavony Township, which is fine by me. The upside however, is having my 5 drops be actual standalone threats that don't require babysitting. Vorapede - built in trample, something we don't have access to without Kessig Wolf Run (unless splashed for). The same logic followed with Armada Wurm; I can honestly say I won any given game he showed up in.
My deck also included 3 maindecked Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - which I feel made all the difference in the games where she mattered, as well as more than compensated for the lack ofThragtusk life-gain. The game plan of the day for G1 was to be able to tank anything, and then go big, plain and simple. Against opposing Reanimators or midrange decks where I cared less about my life-gaining capabilities, and simply wanted to favor a longer game; Trostani x3 was a clean swap for Angel of Serenity x3. I never saw a control opponent or hardly any that day for that matter, but that was the same plan against Esper.
I'm not by any means saying Thragtusk should be gone or anything, but that sometimes having a certain game plan warrants sometimes different or off the wall card choices. I simply don't think he is high impact at all in a deck with Gavony Township, or that Gavony is *more than I'd like* too situational or not high impact enough, enough of the time.
What was also not included: planeswalkers, entirely. I felt this might've been a mistake, and some number of Garruk could've been on the board. The truth is, I feel planeswalkers as a whole are too slow/bad draws entirely against aggro, and will not help enough to pull ahead if you are already behind. I wasn't that worried about needing him against Control, as I predicted there wouldn't be any. The thing is, I can't tell whether he would've made that much of a difference in the Reanimator matchups or not - without going into too many what ifs, I simply felt this deck didn't want planeswalkers and that they were too slow/incremental for what I was trying to do. Also, I fully admit I have a tendecy to build decks in extreme directions, (with too much Simic focus :D), and would rather simply do it that way instead of having a lot of 1-of options.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
This is my current list, splashing for wolf run. Not sure about the sideboard yet, i feel like there should be some number of Purify the Grave in there, as it's strictly better than crypt.
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@Spooky:
Well, to start this off, you mention that they are terrible topdecks. I won't argue that one. However, it's hard to argue that there's a better T1 play. Just the simple use of them requires proper deck construction, if you're going to use them at all, your threat density needs to be as high as possible as well as high impact, to alleviate the bad topdeck problem. I would also like to point out a fact that isn't necessarily the mana-dorks' fault; they are well positioned right now in this format. With no Whipflare or Slagstorm type effect seeing wide play, sure there's Bonfire of the Damned, but you don't have to worry about getting 2-for-1'd as soon as T3 typically short of miracles. If somebody wants to wrath your dorks, it's going to take them at least 4 mana, and that's fine - it was the 2 mana Pyroclasm effect seeing wide play that kept them out of the format last standard (ex: Rampant Growth/Sphere of the Suns being the superior ramp package).
With your hypothetical examples in mind, I'll try my best to give some hypothetical rebuttal, as rooted in real world experience as I can.
Gavony *does* change things when it's a creature vs creature battle, and there's no sweepers to worry about. Have you ever screwed up your opponent when they thought they were going to be making good trades, and you declare an Arbor Elf as a blocker, and tap it for mana before damage happens to have *just enough* for a Gavony activation? The point of Gavony isn't to kill opponents with mass dorks and mass gavony pumps, that's all kinds of linear, slow, and means you drew absolutely nothing but mana-dorks all game. This deck is nothing if not based around creature and combat math - if the game goes to a board standstill, you can often pull ahead simply by pumping your Loxodon Smiter(s) into 6/6's which keep their Thragtusk(s) at bay. The mana-dorks getting pumped is largely just a side benefit, but they enable it's use while being bodies at the same time.
Now I'll try to take a stab at Somberwald Sage you mentioned. I agree with your thinking in the lane of a mana-dork is only as good as the play that follows it, and I looked over your list again. I would like to point out that you could potentially make Somberwald Sage's acceleration *faster* by actually running 8 mana-dorks - you want her down on T2 if possible. Yes, it's more vulnerable that way, but you're committing to a 3 mana 0/1 accelerator in the first place - you either get the payoff from it or you don't. T1 Mana dork, T2 Sage - T3 you have 7 mana assuming no missed land drops. This is where we're treading in rough hypotheticals, but, T3 Angel of Serenity could be amazing or it could be unimpressive with nothing to remove a lot of the time. I would highly suggest you take a look at Brad Nelson's "Hoof There It Is" take on Somberwald Sage - it functions as a high risk, high reward combo deck, and both him and Martin Juza (Juza took 1st in GP Bochum) blew away the format when it was unprepared for it. (source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpboc12/welcome#t8dl).
My only advice on the Sage, you should want T1 accelerators with her I believe, as these guys thought too. You may or may not want to go that route, but that's possibly one of the most proactive strategies utilizing Sage, where Angel of Serenity by and large is a defensive-stabilizing trump card for our Bant decks here.
Not trying to criticize your list at all, but it seems you have the base for an extremely proactive/aggressive start with the Sage, but the rest of the deck may or may not go with that gameplan. I would only ask that rather than assume. I think what it comes down to is there is a pretty cut and dry clear gameplan for "Prime Speaker Bant" as an archetype here, while I definitely encourage out of the box thinking, what you're working with has some clear pros and cons and different elements entirely. TLDR: You should really just test it and report back to us as much as you can on it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I completely agree with you when you say for the first time you'd copy/paste and play it - I myself prefer Mytinger's list with 25 lands and 3 Arbor Elves, and there's not much else I would change. Andrew Shrout (Johnnyhotsauce) went 4-0 in an MTGO daily recently, (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1105851) and he's running 3x Syncopate main now. I'm also very surprised GM interviewed him and that our deck is getting a lot of attention right now, but either way, that just means we need to stay on top of what's going on in the meta. (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jarvis-yu-modo-mtgo-03142013-interview-with-andrew-shrout/).
It all comes down to those 3 flex slots in our deck it seems, which interestingly started out as 3x Strangleroot Geist in Shrout and many other's earlier versions.
Selesnya Charm is pretty narrow, but I think the main thing it has going for it is that it's G/W - a lot of the time I'll have games where I have a Syncopate rotting in hand and wish I could cast it (early-mid game) but haven't found a U source yet (no Farseek). It'll at least be consistent and do what you want it to do, if you need it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Read the Hoof There it is article, liked many of the ideas but hated the overall deck. Singular win cons (don't tell me buffed tokens are a win con), super-duper magical christmasland set-up (the problem with Hoof is that you tap down dorks when you want to attack; so the guy forces himself to dilute between ramp and token strategies), vulnerable reanimator tactics, no removal (in fact, no interaction!)... And of course he plays 4 Serenities SB so he could just as well be playing my deck. Wish I knew why he didn't MB them as Serenity doesn't require anything other than pure ramp to work.
What I liked: replacing Farseek with Tracker's Instinct. In fact, Tracker's Instinct as a plan B when **** happens. I could go 8 one drops, 8 three drops (between Smiter and Sages), 3/4 Tracker's Instinct, 3/4 Thragtusks and 4 Serenity.
Even across an empty board, I can always rescue my own mana dorks. If they kill my angel, I get my dorks back and start building all over again. This forces an opponent to constantly expend removal for the next big threat. It's why I'm thinking of going back to Armada Wurms in the six drop: it's like, the most cost-effective threat I could find. The only effective threat that comes close would be Thragtusk... which would require about 2/3 Rancors for him to work. And with all those dorks sitting around the board, Sublime Archangel might be welcome?
The whole "8 dorks + 4 Sages" idea might be a whole different deck altogether but I'll keep posting here for a while, see what else I can get.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Gavony is good, but I agree it isn't enough alone, which is why I've been personally running Collective Blessing. That card has single handedly shut down quite a few games for me. Its just a one of, but I feel it adds an additional out.
I was personally a fan of Armada Wurm and was sad to have to cut it. Its a great body with a great ability.
I feel like a lot of the criticism you level against running dorks also applies to Sage, but even more so. I understand you can rescue your dorks with AoS, but whats the point? If those are the best targets for AoS why are you casting it? I can understand their arises situations where you want to apply pressure early, but in my experience AoS is best saved for a time when you can maximize its value. I'll admit my biggest compliant about Sage is that it cannot help cast Garruk, Primal Hunter, which is a major linchpin for this deck. Garruks potential impact on the board makes it worth ensure you hit him as early as possible.
The problem is that you almost want to play two games: one in which you invest yourself in finding sage + big creature (the all-in strategy) and one in which you choose mana efficient creatures just in case that you don't. Reading the Hoof there it is article and reading Cassial's post made me realize I wanted to go all-in... Of course I still have reservations. So that's the difference in overall strategies: 4 Trackers instincts to ensure I find my Sages/Angels, and 4Serenity+1Avacyn as end curve (with Cavern of souls naming angels).
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
TLDR/deck conclusions at bottom.
The list I took:
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Restoration Angel
4x Thragtusk
3x Arbor Elf
3x Angel of Serenity
3x Prime Speaker Zegana
3x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Utility: 7
4x Farseek
2x Detention Sphere
1x Cyclonic Rift
4x Breeding Pool
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Forest
3x Gavony Township
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Hinterland Harbor
3x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
3x Rest in Peace
2x Syncopate
1x Acidic Slime
2x Feeling of Dread
2x Garruk Relentless Flip
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
R1 - 2-1
R2 - 2-1
R3 - 2-1
R4 - 1-0
Opponent quickly lead with a Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, and slowed me down when he got the Farseek start and I was on the draw. Garruk, Primal Hunter was single handedly able to keep Tamiyo from going ultimate, although he found a Detention Sphere for Garruk. Best moment here was a Thragtusk and topdecked Gavony Township swinging for exactly 6 at Tamiyo, killing her. That didn't give me the momentum at all though, by the time the game was over, he had gone through 4x Terminus, and 3x Supreme Verdict, and a full 4x Detention Sphere on all of my Garruk, Primal Hunter + 1x Angel of Serenity. What ended up winning the day? Double Gavony Township activations on whatever creatures I could find. The moral of the story here is, don't throw away your creatures or get greedy at any point, ignore the Bant control player's 50+ life total, and the #1 focus of the game is to just keep running them out of cards.
R5 -
TLDR: My biggest takeaway from all of this has to be that the mainboard for this deck archetype is very solid as-is. Many of my games were close, but were simply won by curving out properly, much of the sideboard tech I never saw or it was irrelevant by the time I did see it. If anything, we should work on narrowing the sideboard tech to a select few silver bullets for "more problematic" matchups, whatever they may be, instead of trying to make a few generic swaps. What this also tells me, is that it is possible to "over-sideboard" a few problem matchups as well, since it seems that we don't have to change much in the main, more on this later.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Lands -
That all being said - it's a necessary evil. Mana dorks are here primarily because having 7x mana dorks overall gives us more keepable / better opening hands. We can still gradually get there without the acceleration, but it makes a difference too often to discount entirely. In order to slam down a T3 Thragtusk followed by a T4 Prime Speaker Zegana, you have to also not miss any land drops, which I find to be the primary reason my deck stumbles sometimes. I'm sure there's plenty of you that can relate to that time where you're stuck on 5 and wanted to cast Zegana that very turn, and Zegana usually gets the blame for it. Or I'll hear people telling me that Zegana should only be a 2-of because I couldn't cast her on curve this one awful scenario in a given game. How about we help her do her job better, instead of blaming the deck stumbling for a turn on her?
Also, I swear by at least 1-2x Cavern of Souls, which isn't anything new, but it is very tech to color fix your Prime Speaker sometimes or Angel. Making them counter-proof is very relevant against any control deck, where the outcome of the game hinges sometimes on you resolving that critical Angel or Prime Speaker to pull ahead. It's simply great as a 2-of since it really does help color fix in a pinch.
Lands and regards to Sideboarding -
3x Mainboard flex slots -
Andrew Shrout - (aka JohnnyHotSauce on MTGO) (whom piloted his own rough Prime Speaker Bant list recently to a 1st place finish SCG Classic in Louisville) is now recently opting for 3x Syncopate main. I definitely agree with this change, but I can't stomach his 24 land, 5 forest, 4x of Arbor Elf build which only has 8 blue sources. Having Syncopate in hand in a game without Farseek, you're counting on the deck to give you a blue source, and that is asking for inconsistency. There are plenty of games where you start with either a Farseek, or mana-dude, but the usual scenario is that you get one or the other, and I'm simply being real when I say that color screw will happen when you can't afford it to if only running 8 blue and relying on Syncopate to save you if you're behind. Definitely would need to tinker with the manabase to include more base blue if going this route.
The other route that seems very viable is to main 2-3x Selesnya Charm. As many posters have noted, this deals with a lot of problem cards for us, and acknowledges the deck's weakness to Olivia Voldaren. Selesnya Charm also has the benefit of rarely being color screwed, unlike Syncopate, early on. If for no other reason I'd agree with a full 2-3 charms simply to hedge the wildly popular Junk Reanimator matchup better in our favor.
Anyway, I'll be lurking and answering questions, thanks for bearing with me here and getting through that wall- :> Thanks everyone again who's still hanging out in here.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
4 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Hinterland Harbor
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Alchemist's Refuge
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Arbor Elf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Angel of Serenity
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Farseek
2 Syncopate
1 Detention Sphere
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Syncopate
2 Negate
2 Detention Sphere
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Collective Blessing
I still am going back in forth on whether or not I want three Angel of Serenity main. I did cut one now because I went down to six mana dorks instead of eight. I am not a fan of three Zeganas simply because this deck already has to mulligan pretty aggressively and I almost always have to pitch a hand that has two of them. I do however run the full four Garruk, Primal Hunter currently. While I like Relentless I just feel that Primal Hunter is an all around stronger play. I also now mainboard two Sigarda, Host of Herons. She plays well with our goal to play a five drop on turn three, is great against Jund and adds resiliency against control.
I have now added an Alchemist's Refuge and a Moorland Haunt to the deck. I have cut Gavony completely and moved Collective Blessing to the board. I have enjoy Moorland Haunt so far and am considering running two and squeezing Collective Blessing back into the main. Refuge does feel a little to techy at times, but it does give you the chance to play your threats on your opponents turn to dodge board sweepers and give your beats pseudo-haste.
@Cassial
I agree Rest in Peace can be less than stellar against Junk Rites, but it is helpful for certain versions that run Liliana and Lingering Souls in order to limit their ability to grind out the game. It feels less than great against control, even when they have a ton of flashback spells and Snapcaster because it only delays the inevitable and doesn't actually provide any card advantage. It also shuts down your Angels of Serenity and for me turns off my ability to use Moorland Haunt. I have it cut for now, but I may return to it sometime in the future.
Here are a few cards I am currently considering for the sideboard:
Plummet- Kills Olivia, Angel of Serenity, Restoration Angel and Thundermaw Hellkite. Right now there are a ton of viable targets. I am looking at one, maybe two.
Simic Charm- Bounce and hexproof are nice and the additional cost doesn't hurt our deck. I might run one in place of a Cyclonic Rift in the board to act as a tempo spell and a pseudo counterspell.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage- There seems to be a flux of Midrange decks in the meta and Tamiyo does a great job of forcing them to slow down and over extend. This card might work better in builds like mine where you have the option to bring in board wipes.
Snapcaster Mage- The darkside so to speak. I've noticed that there are some matches where I bring in a lot of spells. One or two of these may help smooth out games against control. It also makes the next card easier to play.
Psychic Spiral- I didn't run this card before because as a one of it seemed weak. I did not have enough counterspells to force it through and I had no Snapcasters to rescue it from the yard. I might add it now if I do add in the Snaps because between the addition of them and the syncopates I increase my chances of being able to force it through. I'm not sure if Drownyard is enough of a threat to basically dedicate three sideboard slots to it.
That's where my deck is currently at. I hope to have the main and sideboard finalized before this Saturday. I'll let you guys know what I end up going with.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Honestly, Rift is one of my favorite cards in the deck, and I love playing 2 copies of it.
Updated 11/01/13
-->Standard:
:symwg::symwg::symwg: Aggressive Midrange
:symu::symu::symu: Devotion
-->Modern:
:symwg::symrg::symug: Kiki-Jiki Pod
:0mana::symur::0mana: Affinity
Went 5-0 at my FNM this week, on a hot streak now, going to take it to our PTQ at my shop too tomorrow.
Since I have to keep last minute testing the deck, I'll keep it short, first round was a free win against a total jank Orzhov deck, but my remaining 4 matches were against some of our best players at the shop.
2nd round - Humanimator
3rd round - UWR Flash, burn variant featuring Guttersnipe! Caught me completely off guard G1 and blew me up.
4th round - Naya midrange, Aurelia the Warleader and goodstuff.dec. Aurelia can straight kill out of nowhere with just a meager Restoration Angel.
5th round - RWB Aristocrats aggro, down to the wire close games, most powerful MVP of the day - Trostani, Selesnya's Voice from sideboard, who is now making her way main! She was always my waifu, with her big blocking butt, and always dependable and keepin me safe, even if I have more fun with Prime Speaker Zegana ...at least casting her. :>
I'd love to hear all of your feedback, matchups, what you think were the roughest and what not. In the spirit of evolving the deck, I've been rigorously testing some pretty drastic changes and will try to do a fairly thorough write-up later..
Thanks to everyone for sticking in here, I've been keeping our thread very sporadically un-updated, mostly due to moving IRL and having next to zero time to do as much hands on playtesting as I'd like. That being said what playtesting time I do get has been hardcore and in paper.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I ran this list
3 arbor elf
4 avacyn's pilgrim
4 loxodon smiter
4 restoration angel
3 prime speaker zegana
3 angel of serenity
Planeswalkers
3 garruk, primal hunter
Spells
4 farseek
2 selesnya charm
1 cyclonic rift
4 temple garden
4 breeding pool
2 hallowed fountain
3 sunpetal grove
3 hinterland harbor
2 cavern of souls
4 forest
3 gavony township
3 rest in peace
2 syncopate
1 acidic slime
2 feeling of dread
2 garruk relentless
2 jace, memory adept
2 trostani, selesnya voice
1 ray of revelation
a small tournament with I think 11 people and 4 rounds:
Round 1 vs UWR assemble the legion 2-0 for me
We were both pretty new, but I had the edge of knowing his deck since it was played by a friend, I went to an easy game 1 win by stalling the boros reckoner/augur of bolas early and then won mid game thanks to thragtusks and my better creatures. Game 2 since I went fairly low game one I sided trostani, the acidic slime, the ray, and the feelings of dread since I was expecting as happened the geist coming out of the side to go earlier aggro, and doubling up on the assemble the legions.Went easily on a turn 3 trostani which won me the game.
Round 2 vs human/werewolf RG aggro 0-2
This was embarassing to say the least, first game I had to mulligan to 6 to see a playable hand(mana dork landx2 smiter restoration) he aggroed me, I stalled up to turn 6-7, he killed me since I draw no thragtusk/enough mana for serenity, generally I could've played better so half my fault half the matchup I'd say.Game 2 I mulliganed again(no lands hander), into again a decent hand, I then got manascrewed at 3 lands and 1 mana dork which he killed it with a spear since he had an idea I was getting mana screwed, he then won easily since with 3 mana the deck just isn't there.I did side again trying to combat aggro with feeling of dread/garruk relentless/trostani.His combat tricks to flip all the humans and generally the condition of having to cast 1 spell or they flip has been a huge pain in all tests...
Round 3 gruul aggro 0-2
Same deal as before, first game I keep a 7 hand that is decent enough to survive the early aggro, but he has a super explosive hand hitting me turn 2-3-4(can't remember, but pretty quick) for 10 trample damage...I die at turn 4 drawing again no lands(kept a 2 land 1 mana dork 1 farseek hand and proceeded to draw onnly 6-7 cmc creatures...) no thragtusk and nothing much to say.Game 2 same deal, no side card came out and had to mulligan to 5 to see a quick hand, got trample for 15 turn 3 or 4...
I was basically out but so I conceded 0-2 to my friend that had chance of entering we played for fun
Round 4 vs omniscience/unexpected results deck
I lost again 0-2 even if I conceded since well, I had no way of closing games quick enough, he just kept getting life with the enchant land card which I can't remember the name, and comboed me off before he was dead.Supreme verdict kept me in check every game even if I didn't jus tthrow up my hand into the game.I sided out a few mana dorks in game 2 since he was just verdicting them, and I've seen no side cards.
I don't know the winner of the FNM but I know final was somethin junk with obzedat, vs the werewolf RG deck.
I have to say I was not exactly impressed on my version of the deck my reasoning on selesnya was that everyone and their mother was playing a junk reanimator and I did suffer the angels/behemoth(though you usually die anyway) so I've chosen that charm instead of the azorius/simic ones, or generally other cards.I love the cyclonic rift even in 1x since if it comes online with 6 mana is usually gg right there, side was an experiment trying to hate out bant enchant(which was there, just didn't get paired) since and generally my plan against aggro was garruk relentless/trostani/feeling, which wasn't definitely enough, even in the game where dread came out it didn't do enough to save me...Syncopate I didn't get a chance of trying, same as jace, and I believe the 1x of acidic isn't going to cut it, I really felt powerless against aggro though with this build, the earliest thing that comes online is the smiter, and while being really strong as a 4/4 sometimes isn't enough alone.Worst of all is that I feel we have to mulligan aggressively to 4-5 in some situations because the deck tends not only to have issues against aggro. but somtimes even with 25 lands/4farseek/7 mana dorks, I just don't get the ramp going up and the deck just folds.
My friends also believe I'm too slow on closing games, they feel I should add either master biomancer and try and run the more aggro version, the bantomacer maybe by also adding geist of saint traft/sigarda, host of herons(they aren't convinced by that though) or just a craterhoof behemoth.
I'm unsure on what to change, my meta has a naya blitz, gruul and rg werewolf, a lot of reanimators(which I feel we have atleast an even game if not the upper hand) a bant enchant, and probably an esper control or uwr flash, or generally a couple unknown decks, I'm feeling like I'm out of place with this list since the aggro just runs me over.
They suggested me to get back the strangleroot geist as a 2cmc drop, or change the selesnya charm/cyclonic, or well, they aren't convinced about the list.
Am I the only one facing this strong issues against aggro? Might be I failed somethin in my 75 + bad plays =P
Thanks for the help anyway!
edit: I forgot, I was thinking of running 2-3x blind obedience in main even(surely in my side) since I guess that if it comes online T2 against aggro, I can get enough time to actually get better chances, ideas?
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.
I like Rest in Peace. I'm just not sure it is a snap inclusion. It will ultimately depend on what version you choose to run and what you expect to play. Liliana of the Veil can be damning at times because she chips away at your hand while progressing your opponents strategy. Things like Lingering Souls can be hard to fight through because it can act as a couple of turn fog that can require you to over extend into a sweeper. Personally when I run it I run a 2/1 split between it and tormod's crypt simply to make sure that my hate isn't all weak to the same cards like Ray of Revelation
Which Garruk you run is up to personal preference, deck build and what you expect to face. Early on when I first started running G/W ramp I had fourteen ramp spells. I ran four Garruk, Primal Hunter because I built my deck to hit him or Thragtusk turn three consistently. Now it is not as clear cut. For me personally I find as I cut dorks I want to mix up my Garruks more. Relentless has a lot going for him, but he has a lot of weaknesses as well, namely Restoration Angel is a fairly effective answer to him. The more card draw you run the less you rely on Primal Hunter to power through to gas. I am still debating how I feel about Sphinx's Revelation, but as the numbers in my maindeck increase my number of Garruk, Primal Hunter decreases since I need his draw less and less. Both are great against control. I find Primal Hunter tends to be better against midrange decks where Garruk Relentless provides a nice way to clog the board or snipe a threat against aggro. Also it is worth noting that the more utility lands you run the harder it is to hit Primal Hunter.
I prefer Detention Sphere over Oblivion Ring because neither is seeing much play. As detention sphere's clause becomes more relevant a need for a mix arises. Right now I enjoy Detention Sphere's ability to snag multiples, but admittedly I have encountered situations where it has been a slight deterrent, usually when it comes to beast tokens. If you run three I would consider a 2/1 Sphere, O-Ring split to be a good compromise, but if you are only running two I would just run Sphere, especially if you also have [CARD]Cyclonic Rift[/CARD.
I have never ran Blind Obedience so I cannot answer your final question.
Hope that helps.
I did not make the SCG Super Qualifier event this past weekend because I was unaware it was at a Con. Truth be told I didn't want to drop $25 for the tournament plus another $10 to get into the convention to play for an invitation to an event that I could not attend (I have no legacy deck and I believe both are played at SCG Invitationals). I am still repping the deck hard to anyone who will listen however. I've been sold on this deck since I took my funky home brew to a first place victory at a decent sized Gameday Gatecrash.
I'll try to have something new in the next couple of days. I'm still hammering out some numbers, but spoiler alert it involves Yeva, Nature's Herald. If I get the chance to attend a tournament Weds or Thurs I'll let you guys know my results.
Seems like you got the bases covered fine on that one, check.
First off, I feel your pain, I flooded and did nothing against Naya Blitz one round playing at my PTQ (more on that in a later post). It cannot be stressed enough though, the more you play the more you'll see this is the case, but aggro decks have bad draws and consistency hiccups sometimes too, as frustrating as it is to lose to their nutdraws when we flop - tending to make it look very black and white. The odds are also in our favor sometimes when we T3 Trostani and absolutely lock aggro out easily. Those factors aside, Trostani isn't enough on her own - I strongly recommend 3x Aetherize in the sideboard at least for the 8 mana dork, more proactive versions of our deck. Feeling of Dread is definitely more flexible if it fits your playstyle, and can be used offensively against enemy midrange decks (I'd rather just Rift overload in those matches, personally). The thing with Aetherize is, I just plain think it's extremely good right now against the Blitz decks, anything with Burning-Tree Emissary, Experiment One, Champion of the Parish, all of these decks that win by swarming as fast as possible. It's certainly less effective against bigger aggro decks, but it's the fast swarmers that try to go under us that give the most trouble I think.
Yeah, sounds like luck wasn't on your side that night.
The ability to close out games is something I'm working very closely on, definitely more on this later too. All of these things considered, I think your deck was fine and the card choices were solid, what's happening is the meta is moving and we need to make some significant changes I believe.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
My list I am looking at testing this Friday at FNM is this
4 loxodon smiter
2 prime speaker zegana
4 restoration angel
1 sigarda, host of herons
4 thragtusk
3 azorius charm
1 cyclonic rift
2 detention sphere
4 farseek
2 selesnya charm
2 supreme verdict
1 sphinx's revelation
4 breeding pool
1 cavern of souls
1 forest
2 gavony township
4 glacial fotress
4 hallowed fountain
3 hinterland harbor
3 sunpetal grove
4 temple garden
I just never felt the need to play revelation when I had Thragtusk. I figured I would give jace a try.
+1 garruk relentless main
-1 garruk, primal hunter main
and this side:
1x tormod's crypt
2x Rest in Peace
2x detention sphere
2x Feeling of Dread
1x Garruk Relentless
1x garruk, primal hunter
2x syncopate
2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1x ray of revelation
1x acidic slime
Excluding round 1 where I failed totally in every possible aspect, I'm still disappointed by how my games go, I'm still making mistakes but I don't feel the deck is going how it should...
Round 1 0-1 vs junk reanimator
I keep a hand with pilgrim 2 lands(pool/gavony) and the perfect god hand, only issue no smiter.I then proceed to stay ar 3 mana for 3 turns, I do play some things, but the first 2 lands I see are gavony townships, I die to centaur and thrag beats.I was probably sleeping since game 2 I don't side my GY hate, turn 4 serenity into gg, I did fail so let's not consider this round tbh.
Round 2 1-1 against esper control
I'm playing against a kid that was probably not familiar with the deck, and is playing a bit slowly, so I'm not getting my hopes up, went 2-0 easily in the end since the deck really went in all the right directions barring a mulligan in game 2.
Round 3 1-2 vs omnidoor
I was expecting a bit of combo but game 1 I was just 10 damage short of killing him, couldn't do much with his miracle terminus against my serenity...Game 2, he totally goes for a beat strategy and well, he beats better than me apparently, he wins at 23 and I die since I had to mulligan to 5 to see a land.Yeah with 25 lands+4farseek+7mana dorks.That's standard for the deck apparently...(more to come)
Round 4 vs bw zombies 2-2
He starts by laughing since I destroyed him in our previous games for fun, and then he proceeds to win game 1 since I had to mulligan to 6 to see a land.I missed 4 land drops before seeing the second one and dieing.Game 2 we both mulligan to 5(this time I saw some lands but unplayable hands withe verything 5+ cmc in my hand and not enough mana to get there) I win 1-1 just barely.Game 3 I again mulligan to 6 to see something that isn't a land this time. I win at 3 life with a huge cyclonic rift which is probably our best card in most games if we overload it in a timely fashion.
Round 5 vs jund
Oh boy...we both mulligan to 6 and I keep a hand without smite but otherwise perfect, he does a turn 3 liliana into a turno 4 rakdos return, I die slowly after since my hand is empty and he has more threats.Game 2 I keep my 7 with a loxodon smiter, and we play, he miracles a bonfire, proceeds to get me to 3 life, while I keep him at 4(gavony township+ mana flood + resto angel 7/8) he topdecks a removal for the angel, passes, I draw a land, he draws a return and wins.
Aaand I'm out again of the tournament.
Now I'm misplaying here and there which is surely causing me more issues, since I'm not familiar with the deck but I feel there's something that is going on wrong generally with the deck:
1)Mana dorks are awful after the first few turns, we all know that, and most of my lost games outside of this tournament report are due to those, or mana flood.I like to run 25 lands to cast the fatties, but I tend to have horrible topdecks when zegana/garruk for some reasons aren't there.
2)The deck tends to have big swings, either you just slaughter them, or is unplayable, I've had some good games which were reasonable but most of the times I either don't have mana/have too much/I just don't get threats.Unless you reliably get good starting hands, mulligans are a plenty, I think it's also a matchup issue, if I have to mulligan twice against aggro because the hands are not playable, it's just impossible to play.
3)Side issues, might be just me but siding is kinda hard, because most of the deck usually has to stay, I usually tend to work on zegana/garruks/mana dorks/charms, because the rest usually needs to be there..am I just bad ?
Now this is MY experience, I might just be bad, so I'd love to learn more on what to do with the deck, there's plenty of upsides too:
1)cyclonic rift is AMAZING, againt everything but harder control that has the board semi empty, and even there, you can just have them pick up back the angels/augurs/snapcasters and swing for lethal if they tapped out of ir you are sure you can afford it.I'm trying to play more of these but unsure what to cut.Without overload is still nice but not sure how much, generally I get it pretty late or hold it for key moments.
2)It can get back into almost any game with a few key moves, which is harder to say for other decks I'd ssay, I've changed back games I felt were lost just by a couple good plays.I'm a really fan of that, rewards the skilled plays instead of just throwing your hand on the table
3)Almost any card that isn't a mana dork or land isn't dead and just does things.When they are dead draws excluding bad cases they still do some work...
4)Gavony is amaing(but I don't like the 3x...think I'm going to cut to 2 to avoid mana color issues...yeah.)wins games alone when the board stalls, if it wasn't so dead when you need coloured mana...
There was also another guy playing th kansas city version of bant, but he lost too before top 8, I think that there's some rough edges, mostly there needs to be a bit better consistency, I'm considering dumping the mana dorks and work on adding more low CMC threats, or answers, it's pretty rough to have only 2x selesnya and 1 cyclonic as answers outside of our creatures...sideboard not considered.
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.
Anyway, I did make FNM last week, went 4-1, again, losing to only Reanimator. Is anyone else as fed up as I am with how at least once in every 3 games they just flip the nuts and get a T4 Angel of Serenity? I would normally not mind so much, in the sense that "well, some decks just have nutdraws" yeah, that's aggro, not so much midrange, unless it's well, reanimator! Seriously though, this entire past month I've played, every single reanimator opponent I've played has had one game getting the T4 Angel - at least they all went to 3 games and some were close, is about the only thing positive I can say to that.
So anyway, let's get constructive here - I'd like to highlight Memory's Journey against them, definitely as a 3-of in the board for me now. If you haven't tried it, try it, is all I can say. Special mention to Memory's Journey for shuffling back not only my opponent's Craterhoof Behemoth, but the Sever the Bloodline he revealed, either of which would've wrecked me in the late stages of the game we were in.
I'm currently at a crossroads with my own deck and the directions we can go in - I've seen a lot of the controllier Prime Speaker Bant decks without mana-dorks putting up great results (Thanks for the links And3h!), and the breakout mana-dork heavy versions are still going strong it seems. I myself have not played the controllier version yet, but would like to if for no other reason than to get a feel firsthand and see which of the two decks has better pros/cons.
My only suggestion for those running the controllier version, and I noticed in the latest SCG 4th place Bant deck (Rick Meditz) - if you are using the controllier version, are you still or are you not running Gavony Township? I ask this in all seriousness, as somebody who plays 2-3 of them in the mana-dork version, and doesn't feel it's near high impact enough/relevant enough of the time. I just can't see with how that few creatures in the deck, main and/or side, Gavony would ever be worth it, except in corner case scenarios.
It may sound like an utter christmas-land scenario or thinking, but why not Alchemist's Refuge instead? Instant speed Detention Sphere or Supreme Verdict sounds like a great way to beat Reanimator to me. As much as I (personally) want to stick with the "big aggro" version of Prime Speaker, Supreme Verdict is just one of those power cards that being in these colors allows us to play, and would be an edge over GWB that they don't have.
@And3h - how have the Gyre Sages been actually doing for you? I'm reluctant to just add them into a stock build, I see the upside, but I'm personally thinking they need to be built around from the ground up.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
So, here it is:
3 Arbor Elf
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Centaur Healer
2 Wolfir Avenger
4 Restoration Angel
2 Yeva, Nature's Herald
4 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Angel of Serenity
Spells (9):
4 Farseek
2 Azorious Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Mystic Genesis
4 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
2 Syncopate
3 Rest in Peace
3 Feeling of Dread
2 Detention Sphere
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Mystic Genesis
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
After the tournament we got to talk a little about performance. My meta is really heavy on Naya Blitz, fyi. We both agreed that the healers were essential in some number but may try swapping one of them over to a wolfir avenger. Azorious Charm was underwhelming so one should be replaced with a Syncopate and the other should go to a Selesnya Charm. From the sideboard Craterhoofs aren't needed. I figured I'd swap out Angels into Craterhoofs in control matchups, but he said it wasn't worth it so, they should change to another Genesis and another Verdict. Anyways... That's where my build is at at the moment.
EDIT: I just realized that I had a typo in my list. I only run 2 Yeva.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
This is my take on it. Ive been browsing many other lists, and found that mine was getting closer and closer to some, but this is as close as I want to get now.
Mulligan to 5 does not significantly reduce your effectiveness either.
The synergy in here is fantastic, and I think is the Bant-ramps strongest point. No card (dorks excepted) is a bad topdeck lategame.
My wincons would be Garruks ultimate and the Angels. Im not sure which I prefer yet - Angel of Serenity is cool, and usefull, but I run 3 board wipes and 3 O-Ring/Sphere to make up for her absence. The Angelic Skirmisher is a killer. Vigilance my turn, only attack when safe, then Lifelink their turn, however you wanna roll, shes a game-changer!
Rather than running Thragtusk try Trostani, Selesnya's Voice[/card] Not so immediate benefit, but a turn earlier and everything that comes in afterwards boosts you. And loves Garruk
Im keeping Cavern of Souls as I can name whatever i need to get my mana fix for that turn or the next, and i really REALLY hate my fatties being countered...
Gyre Sage I love, unless you have nothing to follow him with to evolve. My ideal would be to drop a Smiter just after, then everything from then on is ridiculous. Again links with Garruk and the general theme.
Rather than Verdict, i'll run Divine Reckoning as I can retain a key card, then O Ring or Sphere their chosen "saviour". Even if i cant Sphere, or Ring, the next turn will see me way out ahead.
Id appreciate help with sideboarding, its always been a tricky one. Totally meta-dependant i know, but still...
Anywhoo I urge you to test this deck to see how montrous it becomes after turn 4. Its not uncommon to have 5 or 6 fatties and to have gained huge life...
3x Breeding Pool
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Forest
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Hinterland Harbor
3x Plains
3x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
Instant (1)
1x Biomass Mutation
Sorcery (3)
3x Divine Reckoning
3x Angelic Skirmisher
3x Arbor Elf
3x Gyre Sage
4x Loxodon Smiter
3x Master Biomancer
2x Prime Speaker Zegana
4x Restoration Angel
4x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Enchantment (3)
3x Oblivion Ring
Planeswalker (3)
3x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
3x Azorius Charm
3x Blind Obedience
1x Champion of Lambholt
1x Entreat the Angels - use up the mana from Gyre Sage. Biomass works well tho
3x Nevermore - huge bonus in game 2 and 3!!
1x Omniscience - for fun
2x Selesnya Charm
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Simic Charm
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Mikaeus, the Lunarch
The sideboard list is not accurate - im unsure how to construct it - need to anti-aggro (boros humans and gruul) with rare control.
The biomancers are not strictly neccessary, but they make for a much more resillient deck. If you get 2 out, the Garruks beast plus trostani is insane.
Ive only playtested this on a virtual tabletop, solo, but it seems huge, so long as you live to see 4 mana.
Soz for the long and rambling post.
Cheers
Wren
I'm going to (hopefully) take some time this afternoon and I'll write up an in-depth report on my PTQ experience. Finished 4-3 for the day in 28th out of 80 something people. And I was sitting pretty at table #5 until two Reanimators in a row happened!
The long and short of it is, I didn't feel as if I had any real losses that day, *cough* T4 Angel of Serenity from 2 Reanimator opponents. 7 Round swiss, lost to 2 Reanimators, went 2-0 in a lot of rounds, and then the last anticlimatic game of the day was ruined by Naya Blitz, and me failing to draw anything except lands and mana dorks two games in a row. Hey, it happens to everyone in there at least once, right? Had to hit me sooner or later, and I was having great consistency throughout the day otherwise.
Again, I don't say I don't feel as if I had any "real" losses to sound arrogant/disrespectful of my opponents or whatever, I simply mean it to say that I didn't feel as if I was completely out of any of the given games. This should really underscore the point that we have a strong deck and tools on our hands, all that is needed is more refinement.
I'll also post the list I took for you folks, bit of a disclaimer at first though. I had very little time to test some very last minute and radical changes I wanted to try at the PTQ; overall I think the deck did fine, but it didn't have the "flow" or the well-tuned feel I strive for. I was anticipating a field entirely of Aggro, and was very paranoid about Human Reanimator (what a joke now, they've all but dissapeared). Why? I'm glad you asked! Simply put, our deck has very few ways to disrupt/interact with Humanimator - we simply have to put the screws on them and race them faster, or they combo out and win. With that in mind, I set out to create my mainboard an absolute BIG AGGRO deck; mainboarded primarily against aggro and other midrange - I wanted to be proactive, first and foremost. I'll have to explain some of the choices below too.
Creatures: 30
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Arbor Elf
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Restoration Angel
4x Prime Speaker Zegana
4x Vorapede
3x Armada Wurm
3x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Utility: 6
4x Farseek
2x Cyclonic Rift
4x Forest
4x Temple Garden
4x Breeding Pool
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Hinterland Harbor
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Alchemist's Refuge
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Angel of Serenity
3x Selesnya Charm
2x Aetherize
2x Rest in Peace
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Syncopate
1x Ray of Revelation
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
My reasoning is going to be a bit long winded, but it was definitely a bit of a gamble and I wanted to see just *how* off the deep end I was going.
I'll make a simple comparison, Centaur Healer vs Loxodon Smiter = Thragtusk vs Vorapede. Yes, they all have extremely different capabilities and interactions, but at face value, Thragtusk is not a standalone powerful hitter in midrange vs midrange matchups. I wanted something that would actually further my game plan and help me win against the other big decks.
I also fully feel that Thragtusk is a pillar if playing GR, simply because of Kessig Wolf Run. In a deck with Gavony Township however, as it's flagship late-game value grinding land, I couldn't help but feel one of these two are just not pulling their weight. 9 times out of 10, the Beast token left behind by my Thrags would become absolutely irrelevant, and it would take so many Gavony activations to actually *make* my board state *better*.
Is this really Thragtusk's fault though? Or is he in the wrong deck, or is it Gavony Township's fault? I say none of those, but I do strongly feel that Gavony Township as a 3-of needs more high-impact "swarm strategy" catalysts such as Geist-Honored Monk perhaps - not the correct/better creature, but it would have more impact with this land choice.
So obviously Vorapede doesn't play well with Gavony Township, which is fine by me. The upside however, is having my 5 drops be actual standalone threats that don't require babysitting. Vorapede - built in trample, something we don't have access to without Kessig Wolf Run (unless splashed for). The same logic followed with Armada Wurm; I can honestly say I won any given game he showed up in.
My deck also included 3 maindecked Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - which I feel made all the difference in the games where she mattered, as well as more than compensated for the lack of Thragtusk life-gain. The game plan of the day for G1 was to be able to tank anything, and then go big, plain and simple. Against opposing Reanimators or midrange decks where I cared less about my life-gaining capabilities, and simply wanted to favor a longer game; Trostani x3 was a clean swap for Angel of Serenity x3. I never saw a control opponent or hardly any that day for that matter, but that was the same plan against Esper.
I'm not by any means saying Thragtusk should be gone or anything, but that sometimes having a certain game plan warrants sometimes different or off the wall card choices. I simply don't think he is high impact at all in a deck with Gavony Township, or that Gavony is *more than I'd like* too situational or not high impact enough, enough of the time.
What was also not included: planeswalkers, entirely. I felt this might've been a mistake, and some number of Garruk could've been on the board. The truth is, I feel planeswalkers as a whole are too slow/bad draws entirely against aggro, and will not help enough to pull ahead if you are already behind. I wasn't that worried about needing him against Control, as I predicted there wouldn't be any. The thing is, I can't tell whether he would've made that much of a difference in the Reanimator matchups or not - without going into too many what ifs, I simply felt this deck didn't want planeswalkers and that they were too slow/incremental for what I was trying to do. Also, I fully admit I have a tendecy to build decks in extreme directions, (with too much Simic focus :D), and would rather simply do it that way instead of having a lot of 1-of options.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Detention Sphere
3 Azorius Charm
3 Selesnya Charm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Think Twice
4 Farseek
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Alchemist's Refuge
3 Breeding Pool
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Hinterland Harbor
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Feeling of Dread
2 Negate
1 Counterflux
2 Psychic Spiral
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Supreme Verdict
This is my current list, splashing for wolf run. Not sure about the sideboard yet, i feel like there should be some number of Purify the Grave in there, as it's strictly better than crypt.