This thread is the official thread to discuss all Prime Speaker Bant decks.
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Introduction:
Massive thread overhaul underway! This thread started out as a good old G/W rampy/midrange build, mostly utilizing a ramp structure of a full 8 mana guys, 4x Farseek, 4x Garruk, Primal Hunter, 4x Thragtusk, and employed 3x Angel of Serenity at the top of the curve as it's trump. The most recent change is a U splash to add Prime Speaker Zegana to the deck, which adds another incalculable source of awesome, aka card draw. Zegana has not been seeing much competitive play at the start of GTC, but it's quickly being discovered that paying 2GGUU in a very creature heavy deck is a very viable alternative to the obvious Sphinx's Revelation staple, and strong source of value - similar draw power, but with a strong body attached. The ideal goal here is to keep drawing more gas while applying pressure at the same time, rather than reactive card draw+life gain, and then hoping to get the right stuff. This makes us a very different deck from the popular Bant Control archetype - we are a very proactive strategy, it may seem very all-in, but it is resilient (through card draw), and has few but strong ways to interact, if not outright race other creature decks.
This deck has recently busted out onto the competitive tournament scene at the largest SCG open in history this past weekend (SCG Indiana), placing 3 of these decks almost card for card in the top 16, and taking 2nd and 4th place. It is fully my intention to try and make this the most constructive, helpful, and focused place for us to collaborate on making the best Prime Speaker lists we can.
If anything, what has occured is an evolution of the rampy G/W build, and stronger options post board such as countermagic, as well as another engine to the deck.
The Decklist(s):
This is just one variation, but here we have Chris O'Bryant's list as a stock example, which placed 2nd this past weekend at the Starcity Open in Indianapolis.
Let's start from the ground up. Most of these choices are obvious staples in any G/W midrange and need little explanation. From my own limited testing, it seems the main weaknesses of this deck are structural/luck based - the mana is sometimes a tad sketchy. Sometimes the deck will look bad simply by missing land drops, getting stuck on 5 and/or biting the occasional color-screw sometimes. If you curve out well, you're usually going to win unless your opponent is doing something equally "big". Starting with Arbor Elf - this is a deck that definitely wants T1 acceleration, and you pretty much can't keep hands without T1 or T2 acceleration.
Staples:
Arbor Elf - I personally prefer him as a 3-of, and Avacyn's Pilgrim as the obvious, reliable 4-of. I compensate by running 25 land as well, since I feel missing lands often hurts the deck more than just not having the T1 acceleration. Arbor Elf is also very often boarded out against control matchups, as the acceleration becomes less important, and we'd rather bring in a Counterspell or simply a more relevant card than a 1 for 1/1 that will just die to a sweeper.
Loxodon Smiter - Probably one of the strongest early cards in G/W. Simply by having 1 more power/toughness than Centaur Healer and a bigger body than anything the aggressive decks run at 3 CMC, you are almost always guaranteed to 2-for-1 them or brickwall them as soon as you land Smiter. This guy is 5 out of 5 good right now and well positioned in the meta - he'll even force a fair 1 for 1 trade with Boros Reckoner - don't be afraid to lose Smiter to it's reflect, it's an even trade.
Restoration Angel - obvious G/W midrange staple. Don't let the obvious Resto-Thragtusk trick fool you, this isn't just a value card in here, she is a very efficient threat, plus her flying is very clutch at providing us the reach to close out a midrange stalled board state on the ground. Very strong with 3x Gavony Township.
Angel of Serenity - Flagship card, definitely strong in a deck that can consistently curve out to her+find her - it's where our card draw power comes together.
Garruk, Primal Hunter + Garruk Relentless - These two planeswalkers form different roles from each other, and neither of them are really worth more than 2-3 slots in the main IMO. Generally against aggro, you don't want Primal Hunter unless you're in a good spot already - you can cast him and instantly -3 to draw and pull ahead. While sometimes that draw will be just what you need to pull ahead, if you're way behind, you won't be able to just draw off of him, and making beasts isn't enough in that situation. Primal Hunter's role in here is really anti-midrange and anti-control; great in games that will go longer and value/board building matters and you know you'll have time to. Garruk Relentless on the other hand is decent vs aggro and decent vs control, but tends to be too low impact against other midrange. Board these two in and out according to what your matchup is, a split between the two is good in the main.
Sideboarding Strategies:
We want most of the discussion to be slanted towards here, given that this is a fairly new breakout deck archetype. Any and all suggestions are totally welcome, but please provide relevant examples backed up with some playtesting. This is new territory we're treading, nothing is off the table. It also bears mentioning that since this is such a rampy deck, our deck can afford very few slots for interaction or answers - both what you bring in your board and boarding properly can make all the difference. Given that sideboarding is a lot of "what-if" land, again I'd stress that to advance the discussion we try to provide as much detail as possible; how said card made a difference for you, what the board state was, and if it performed as you expected it to.
Matchups:
More to come here as we progress and the meta reacts to this deck!
Thanks for making it through and reading/bearing with me, let's get to discussing how to win more games whilst drawing tons of cards~!
I ran a similar list for SCG Cincy after being inspired by the same list you were. I like the deck, but it has problems. One of the biggest issues I had with the deck is that Thragtusk is not good enough to be a finisher on his own and the deck has no removal to clear the path for him. Against some decks a turn three Garruk can win the game, but the format has so many aggressive decks that Garruk alone is not enough. I believe there are two ways to address this issue:
1.) Run a few more threats that are bigger or have evasion. Angel of Serenity alone is not enough and as the list runs now you absolutely have to hit her in order to clear a path to victory, which can take time. Armada Wurm is not a terrible option if you want to stay strictly G/W and Sigarda has her merits, but other colors provide other options which leads me to the second option.
2.) Add a third color. This is the route I went. Each of the other three colors are actually viable options that can contribute to the deck. I choose blue. Caleb ended up adding black to the list he ran at SCG Cincy (which was the event the article was about) and finished in the top 32 at least if I remember correctly.
Prime Speaker Zegana- She can draw a lot of cards in this deck and backs up Garruk in that role. Her strength is dependent on the board, but a Thragtusk or Sigarda played the turn before usually guarantees she has a body to boost her. Zegana is also a great Restoration Angel target. The only thing she lacks is evasion, but she makes it easier to dig into Angel of Serenity.
Detention Sphere- Great catchall removal. I personally main two and have a third in the side.
Supreme Verdict- Helps you stabilize against the extremely fast aggro decks. You tend to side out excess dorks in some match ups anyway making this less impactful on yourself.
Negate- Its role is similar to Nevermore, but slightly more versatile.
I tried to get a discussion going in the Bant Midrange thread but I couldn't get much of a response either so I'll simply share what I wrote there.
Here is my brew. To be honest I am not a fan of Biomancer because it does not pump the dorks you've already dropped. I do run a one of Collective Blessing as a miser which helps me go over the top of other midrange decks. Plus turn three Garruk into turn four Collective Blessing is game over against a lot of decks in the meta.
I actually have a pretty good record against Jund. You have so many ways to generate more CA than them that you often just grind them out. Smiter provides Liliana and Rakdos' Return protection while allowing you to drop early pressure. The four Garruk and two Zegana help make sure you draw into gas, which is essential for this list because there are so many lands and ramp spells. Negate and Sigarda out of the board tilt the match even more towards your favor. Sigarda, like Thragtusk make a follow up Zegana safer since it is less likely your booster is completely removed at instant speed.
Esper is more difficult, but doable. You can out draw them with Garruk and Zegana and AoS provides a reoccuring loop of threats. Jund and Esper is part of the reason why I run four Garruk, because often capping him to harmonize is the right decision. You could also bump to four Restoration Angels to provide "hasty" beaters on your turn.
Cavern of Souls is my one utility land. You could run haunt, township or refuge if you wanted, but right now I prefer Cavern. Alchemist's Refuge is probably my second favorite and I have given heavy consideration about running it. If human reanimator becomes a problem in my meta I would make the switch just to increase my "instant" speed responses to the chain sense paying six to drop a detention sphere is not out of the question.
You need detention sphere. Regardless of Abrupt Decay it is probably the best catchall removal in the format. Because I do not have a lot of space for spells I simply run two of detention to stop anything that may be a threat.
My board might change. Silklash is perfect when you need it, but I rarely do. Negate takes the place of Nevermore, a board option many use to stop Rakdos' Return and Sphinx's Revelation. Negate also stops Liliana, Garruk and other problem spells like Skullcrack and Boros Charm. Rest in Peace and Tormod's Crypt as a split to dodge hate and Rhox Faithmender is a gem against aggro. Supreme Verdict might go against the idea of running dorks, but when you need it you need it.
This decks biggest weakness is probably U/B. Esper is rougher, but winnable and Jund becomes easier on the play than the draw, but post board you should be able to go over the top of them. It is weak to a lot of removal, but most decks are so removal lite that they cannot afford to kill your dorks and if your dorks live you often can win. Otherwise you can play around sweepers, stabilize with Smiters and Healers and draw tons of cards to finish the game.
My personal best so far is 24 cards in one turn. 24. Thragtusk, Garruk and Collective Blessing on the board. Play Zegana as a 12/12. Draw 12. Harmonize with Garruk. The only reason I drew so many at once is because I knew with an Angel of Serenity next turn I would win. AoS wasn't in the first twelve. She was damn sure in the second.
I ran a similar list for SCG Cincy after being inspired by the same list you were. I like the deck, but it has problems. One of the biggest issues I had with the deck is that Thragtusk is not good enough to be a finisher on his own and the deck has no removal to clear the path for him. Against some decks a turn three Garruk can win the game, but the format has so many aggressive decks that Garruk alone is not enough. I believe there are two ways to address this issue:
1.) Run a few more threats that are bigger or have evasion. Angel of Serenity alone is not enough and as the list runs now you absolutely have to hit her in order to clear a path to victory, which can take time. Armada Wurm is not a terrible option if you want to stay strictly G/W and Sigarda has her merits, but other colors provide other options which leads me to the second option.
2.) Add a third color. This is the route I went. Each of the other three colors are actually viable options that can contribute to the deck. I choose blue. Caleb ended up adding black to the list he ran at SCG Cincy (which was the event the article was about) and finished in the top 32 at least if I remember correctly.
Prime Speaker Zegana- She can draw a lot of cards in this deck and backs up Garruk in that role. Her strength is dependent on the board, but a Thragtusk or Sigarda played the turn before usually guarantees she has a body to boost her. Zegana is also a great Restoration Angel target. The only thing she lacks is evasion, but she makes it easier to dig into Angel of Serenity.
Detention Sphere- Great catchall removal. I personally main two and have a third in the side.
Supreme Verdict- Helps you stabilize against the extremely fast aggro decks. You tend to side out excess dorks in some match ups anyway making this less impactful on yourself.
Negate- Its role is similar to Nevermore, but slightly more versatile.
I tried to get a discussion going in the Bant Midrange thread but I couldn't get much of a response either so I'll simply share what I wrote there.
Hey Rancy, thanks for taking the time/hopping in! You've definitely done your homework on this. I did see your post in the Bant thread, and agreed with everything you said on your list pretty much.
But let's address our deck here first, I'm very surprised to see Caleb moved to a complete hybrid reanimator/ramp deck. Link to the deck in question..
(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53078), not going to lie, I don't like it. I can see how it's more resilient to typical graveyard hate in that it can still function as a GWB midrange deck, the Mulch/Unburial Rites are just there as an extra engine I'm assuming to cycle through the deck when Garruk isn't available. It's got to be awful though Mulching your own Primal Hunters and few answer cards (post board) that aren't creatures, though. Again, though, he definitely knows what he's doing (got 13th place with it after all).
I'm more concerned though with what you say are this deck's other problems more than anything, if you could elaborate a bit more? I'm completely with you when you say a T3 Garruk isn't enough to win games, of course he isn't. He absolutely should not be enough to win a game on his own, he's just a 5 drop. But he definitely has the ability to put you ahead, early or later on. Thragtusk has significantly dropped in price too, because Thragtusk alone doesn't win games anymore, either, against aggro like he used to. (The aggro decks at the start of RTR were weak compared to what we're facing nowdays) If anything, this build revolves around combining the two of them to survive first, and then pull ahead - something that they alone wouldn't do for you. And it is constructed in such a way that we can run the full 4 of both, and spit either of them out consistently on T3/4 back to back.
I feel where you're coming from that this deck lacks a Craterhoof Behemoth type win con, or some more evasive hard hitters, it really does feel like it "needs" a Baneslayer Angel. That being said though, I have to disagree on Angel of Serenity not being enough - in the scenario where a "big finisher" to "break through" would be relevant, a midrange vs midrange war (board stall) she is exactly what does the job, clearing their board and allowing me to alpha strike the turn she comes down. Worst case scenario, AoS eats removal, but still costs the opponent a ton of tempo. In regards to the deck just not finding her when we need her, that brings me to the second point - Gavony Township. I don't know if you remember or were around for this past years standard, the Naya Pod mirrors, games were decided by this one key land when the game went to a board stall. If anything, I believe this deck closely resembles it, but has a heavier curve. I also don't personally think the midrange matchups are a concern right now, mostly looking over at Saito Naya - they are very aggressive for a midrange deck, and my priority is surviving them, rather than worrying about adding another big massive powerhouse win-con.
This brings me to my third point in a roundabout way, your own bant list. I'm not exaggerating when I say I've tried the exact same list, even down to the land base, (5 basic Forests, you know what you're doing to make those T1 mana guys consistent) just minus Collective Blessing, there are several problems with it if we're going to line these two decks up and compare side by side. I'm all for Zegana and splashing a third color, don't get me wrong. The deck pretty much starts off as a straight GW deck - any Breeding Pool or Hallowed Fountain we have to play early on is going to force us to eat a lot of shocks. That's my first strike against this build, it won't always be a huge problem for the deck, but I feel it significantly compromises your aggro matchups. I noticed your overall CMC curve is a bit higher than this list too, and isn't running Keyrunes at all, with 7 instead of 8 mana dudes, albeit with a 25th land. Back to the point about Gavony, we're essentially splashing a third color, and adding in 11-12 U sources, eating a ton of shocks along the way, just to be able to land Zegana consistently. And the loss of 3x Gavony is nothing to sneeze at, they really do swing a lot of games for me.
I ultimately decided that I was just trying to force Zegana into an already strong deck, and it really feels like it's only diluting it. In all seriousness, too, what's the point of drawing 24 cards off of Zegana and/or being able to blink her again after that with Restoration Angel? Draw more mana and draw more mana? Nothing to use it on, because, no Gavony or Kessig Wolf Run when we inevitably flood out. I definitely like the Bant version, but I can't help but feel it's missing something, especially a mana sink.
I would also point out just in regards to my own matchup experience with our GW Ramp here, again in comparison to your Bant brew, you stated that Esper/UB is a very rough matchup, but Jund is easier. My own list has been rolling Esper left and right (Ben Stark's version), without concern, any UW control matchup, you simply side in the 3x Nevermore naming Sphinx's Revelation and outdraw them. Again with Gavony Township, it really does win games on it's own against control because you can keep cards in hand, and constantly apply pressure. That reason alone is why I'm willing to guess you say Esper is rough for your Bant brew.
Anyway, sorry for the wall, I appreciate the feedback, and if you could, what other feedback do you have regarding the GW deck that you took to the SCG? How were your matchups/what more can we expand upon? I'm not opposed to the third color, but I'm not convinced just yet that it's worth butchering the manabase/consistency of this deck, if there's some tweaks that can be made for those problem matchups.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
The reason I worry about Garruk and Thragtusk not being enough is because so much of this deck is built around being able to play them turn three, but what good is expending all of those resources to cast them turn three if they cannot turn the tide of the game themselves? This deck needs more things to play after its turn three five drop of choice or else all of that ramp is just a waste.
What I meant by AoS not being enough wasn't that she was weak, but that only having three win conditions you did not necessarily want to see in your opening grip made it difficult to close out games in an expedient manner. Sigarda is a better "finisher" in this deck than Thrag and compliments your turn three five drop plan. Zegana provides a good sized body that draws into more threats. I have tried Armada Wurm and the results were good and I recommend you give it a shot in a G/W build. It is particularly good against Naya Mid which can be a rougher match up. I just personally feel three Angel of Serenity alone is not enough.
Esper is just tough because of the grind. The comment was actually directed at someone who was worried about their match ups in the previous thread. I should have edited my post a bit before I copied it to avoid confusion. I personally enjoy Negate over Nevermore, but Nevermore definitely has its own set of advantages over Negate. The biggest reason I like Negate is because it is better against Jund. Personally I find Esper and UB way tougher than Jund regardless of the colors in this deck because stopping the key spells after your opponent empties their hand ramping is the usual strategy against us.
The 12 shocks are actually not a major problem. Against aggro ramp is less important so you have more turns where you can play one tapped. A turn 2 Smiter and a turn 4 Thragtusk is usually a viable line of play. It makes for harder decisions at times, but I feel it is worth it considering the addition of Supreme Verdict from the board. Against other midrange decks (ramp or not) and control the life loss is negligible. I do run two Healers to make it more likely that I see one though for the aggro matches.
Caleb's deck is still true to its roots. What is a reanimator spell really other than a very specific form of ramp? He focuses on hitting land drops and playing threats earlier than his opponents. I like the addition of black because Ghost Dad is pretty good, especially against us and control. Abrupt Decay is great removal and lingering souls can make your Gavony Townships even better.
I do not run keyrunes any more because I felt that when I had to play them turn 3 (such as when Farseek is your only ramp) they were too weak and left me open against aggro. Jund and other decks running Garruk is when you really want an early Garruk. Against aggro a 3/3 sometimes isn't enough to stabilize on the draw especially since you've spent your last two turns practically defenseless and your only blocker can be burned out by searing spear. If we see a new two drop ramp spell of rampant growth quality or better I would definitely be for reworking the mana base and adding it in. I simply feel better cutting the three drop ramp out right now.
I did not fair to well at SCG Cincy both in the main event and in sides but a part of that was due to a lack of testing. I actually got paired against three Naya decks that day and was not fully prepared. I made several missteps that cost me two of those three matches. Naya can be tough because we are both trying to accomplish similar things with similar threats. Now I am more comfortable with the matchup, especially post board, but it can still be a tough fight if they can keep up the pressure long enough. Another reason I did not fair well in those matches and others was because I was too threat light. I just felt like with all the ramp and lands I did not have enough gas. I could gain a lot of life and draw a lot of cards, but would still lose because the quality of the cards I was drawing was not high enough. I did win against a R/W, a G/R and a W/U/R aggro deck fairly easily. In fact aggro decks are the ones I fear the least as they tend to be our strongest matchups.
I cut Gavony because it was too mana and time intensive for my taste. Collective Blessing however provides an immediate impact and most decks cannot remove it. In a way cutting the Townships and adding the Blessing was my way of splitting the baby so to speak. Like many choices however this tends to boil down to personal preference. If I ever switch to G/W/B ramp I would add it just because of lingering soul.
As of now I will be running Bant Ramp at SCG Indy this Saturday. I feel comfortable with the deck and after having a few weeks worth of testing under my belt I feel I will perform better with it.
My only advice is that as an undefined archetype there is a lot of wiggle room when it comes to building a ramp deck and most of your choices will boil down to what you personally prefer. I just recommend you be mindful of your threat density and choose cards that fit both your play style and your strategy. What is the point of having 14 ramp spells if you hardly have anything worth ramping into
I played a similar deck the week after Gatecrash came out, though I opted to run 4 Armada Wurm instead of any copies of Angel of Serenity. I found I didn't like the deck due to a lack of interaction with my opponent's board. I think that a couple of things could be solved by making a few changes. Here's a quick list...
I think that Fiend Hunter gives you some good, early interaction and doubles as a removal spell against certain things (Master Biomancer comes to mind). I prefer the idea of Verdant Haven to the keyrune, especially with Arbor Elf being in the deck. Lastly, I think that Silverheart is the best 5 drop for this deck if you don't need the 5 life right then. It pairs to make any of our mana dorks or even Fiend Hunter super powerful and it works very well with Garruk (turn 3 Garruk, turn 4 Silverheart draw 8).
I also agree that Garruk is bad turn 3 vs. some decks (aggro mostly). You're too far behind at that point without making a turn 2 play that does something.
I haven't had too many colour issues so far, so I'll probably keep it, but I'm still tweaking. I like 3 Restoration Angels over 2 (I'd play 4 if I had room), and I'm testing switching one of the Thrags for Sigarda. I don't know how I feel about the singleton O-Ring just because I can't guarantee I'll get it if I need it, so I replaced it with a Rancor to act as a wincon.
I'm be taking it to a 2.5K this weekend so I'll try to report back with my list and results after. However, I've noticed that I can't really do much against Jund's T2 Farseek, T3 Olivia, and T4 removal/Olivia ping even if I get a T3 Garruk/Thrag out. I don't know how often that happens, but it'll be something to consider with my next tweak.
I like the Keyrunes where they are though-- they're good for some beats after a Verdict and I've even used them to draw off Garruk if the board is empty or if all I have are mana dorks.
Basically, if you want to open packs to get cards for Standard and Modern, the simpler approach is to just buy all the singles you need and then set some money on fire to make up the difference.
I haven't had too many colour issues so far, so I'll probably keep it, but I'm still tweaking. I like 3 Restoration Angels over 2 (I'd play 4 if I had room), and I'm testing switching one of the Thrags for Sigarda. I don't know how I feel about the singleton O-Ring just because I can't guarantee I'll get it if I need it, so I replaced it with a Rancor to act as a wincon.
I'm be taking it to a 2.5K this weekend so I'll try to report back with my list and results after. However, I've noticed that I can't really do much against Jund's T2 Farseek, T3 Olivia, and T4 removal/Olivia ping even if I get a T3 Garruk/Thrag out. I don't know how often that happens, but it'll be something to consider with my next tweak.
I like the Keyrunes where they are though-- they're good for some beats after a Verdict and I've even used them to draw off Garruk if the board is empty or if all I have are mana dorks.
I have also considered a light red splash simply to add Wolf Run since its not needed all the time and you can wait to hit it, but I'm unsure of Aurelia's Fury since it will often be used as a very expensive fog effect for us most of the time. It is however great against us as most of the wins my brother's Naya deck has against me are a direct result of that card. It is a valid Nevermore target if you run that card in the board. Hunt Masters are great if you are running a decent amount of red and you get the added bonus of being able to support red damage spells for kill. To me Wolf Run is better than Township if you have the red sources to consistently power it, but it does make you more vulnerable to instant speed removal.
I also run two Detention Spheres main, even with Abrupt Decay seeing a decent amount of play, because I was unsatisfied with just one. If you are worried about Olivia you could always play a Garruk Relentless or two either main or side, because he fights her off fairly well.
I played a similar deck the week after Gatecrash came out, though I opted to run 4 Armada Wurm instead of any copies of Angel of Serenity. I found I didn't like the deck due to a lack of interaction with my opponent's board. I think that a couple of things could be solved by making a few changes. Here's a quick list...
I think that Fiend Hunter gives you some good, early interaction and doubles as a removal spell against certain things (Master Biomancer comes to mind). I prefer the idea of Verdant Haven to the keyrune, especially with Arbor Elf being in the deck. Lastly, I think that Silverheart is the best 5 drop for this deck if you don't need the 5 life right then. It pairs to make any of our mana dorks or even Fiend Hunter super powerful and it works very well with Garruk (turn 3 Garruk, turn 4 Silverheart draw 8).
I also agree that Garruk is bad turn 3 vs. some decks (aggro mostly). You're too far behind at that point without making a turn 2 play that does something.
I did think about replacing the keyrunes with Verdant Haven as well, but my biggest concern is that Ghost Quarter will begin to see a rise in play. Right now there are a significant number of decks where GC is basically Stripmine and there is a rise of utility lands seeing play as well. The Keyrunes do provide some sweeper protection though and are admittedly better late game draws, but the two life basically negates an attacker for a turn and provides at least a little breathing room. It does make situations where you drop a turn four Angel of Serenity more likely and has the added bonus of allowing you to develop your own board a little as well. I think you've inspired me to go back and relook at adding it, because potentially having six mana turn three and seven turn four with just two cards expended is intriguing.
You can forgo turn two plays on the play, but you definitely need something solid turn three. There has been a few times where I've dropped a dork and a Smiter turn three just to stop the bleeding. Garruk is a safe t3 play against decks without Searing Spear however, because often times they will attack Garruk allowing you to basically gain some life and make a beast token, which is perfectly acceptable against aggro matches. It depends on the deck though. That's the reason I run Supreme Verdict in the board, because even if you lose a dork its worth it, especially against decks that drop multiple Burning-Tree Emissary. You can try terminus in non-blue versions, but be prepared to sacrifice an additional card or two (still worth it though).
I like Armada Wurm and believe there should be some number of them in the deck depending on its colors, but I wouldn't run four or replace Angel of Serenity with any. A 2/2 split seems good especially since you run Resto to blink the Wurm. I would also probably not cut a Thragtusk for a Sigarda because Tusk is better in more matches. Sigarda is only mediocre against swarm based aggro decks. She is a stellar compliment to Thrag either in the main or the board though. She becomes easier to cast with Cavern of Souls because against all non-control decks you usually name Angel with it anyways.
Maybe I'll get better discussion posting this here, considering this is a Naya Ramp deck. Except that the ramp shell is 4 Somberwald Sage over Pilgrims and thus it ramps higher still, to the 6 drop range and beyond.
Oh, and since Sage mana only applies to creatures, I thought about splashing a bit of red for Domri. Could've splashed blue for Zengana but I'm really digging that potential emblem in a deck based upon bigger, dumber beats. 3-1 split of Domri and Garruk because by the time that I cast a PW, I can often have 5 lands on the board.
Thoughts?
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:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Hey folks, sorry for the much overdue update! This is mostly directed at RancytheRancor, but, I eventually came to the same conclusions you did - this deck really can only benefit from a U splash, and I for one have been wanting to play some Prime Speaker Zegana(s) in here anyway, just hadn't found a solid way to tie it all together.
Well, Prime Speaker Bant is a breakout deck on the competitive scene now, placing 3 in the top 16 at the biggest SCG open this past weekend, taking even 2nd and 4th place. Is it a fluke, or just well positioned for this month's meta?
I'm going to be in the process of overhauling this thread into a Prime Speaker Bant - I know we have some Bant Midrange builds here, but none of them seem to want to go big/quite focused on the 8 mana guys, 3 Garruks, 3x Angel of Serenity, and 3x Prime Speakers.
Also, I recently played the deck at a SCG classic in Columbia SC this past weekend, not the finish I wanted, but the deck flowed exactly as I wanted it to. 5-3, 1 loss to Jund Aggro, 1 loss to getting rules lawyered on a random deckcheck, and 1 loss to Bant Wolf Run (and going to time). More on those later, but I don't say that to complain, just to kick us off on what Prime Speaker has to offer.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Been testing O'Bryant's list out some. Maybe I've just had bad draws, but it seems the matchup versus Esper Control is terrible, pre and post board. I tried adding Wolf-Runs and they didn't assist too much.
Been testing O'Bryant's list out some. Maybe I've just had bad draws, but it seems the matchup versus Esper Control is terrible, pre and post board. I tried adding Wolf-Runs and they didn't assist too much.
Hard control will always be a problematic matchup for this type of deck barring devoting tons of SB slots to that matchup.
Having Cavern of Souls can help though because you can make sure your Angel of Serenitys resolve. I would consider 1-2 Psychic Spiral in the board and perhaps a Dispel or two if you expect a decent amount of esper control using mill as the primary win condition.
You have to look at Esper based on where it is on the aggro-control gradient. This deck destroys other midrange decks. The more controlling versions of Naya, Esper and Jund are all problematic, which you cannot fix without dedicating too much sideboard space. At Indy my first lost came to an Esper deck that ran barely any permanents and mained Supreme Verdict and Planar Cleansing. The only reason I won game two was because of a turn three Garruk. However I took down another Esper deck that was more planeswalker focused later on. The more any deck aggro or control favors the middle the better your chances are of winning.
Round 1- Won against UWR 2-0. The games were a little more straight forward than I've come to expect from the matchup and I won without ever being in any real danger. UWR can be problematic and you should always look for ways to maximize CA over your opponent. Resto is a major threat to Garruk, so be mindful of when you play him. This is another deck where you need to figure out where their build is on the control-aggro gradient. If they are loaded up on counterspells your deck is easing pickings because they'll let you dump your hand onto the board and then counter the threat. Most tend to be lighter on counterspells so Cavern of Souls and threat jamming is usually enough. This is a great match for Sigarda to show her strength. Silklash Spider under performed. Its good, but not good enough to be a viable threat when it becomes time to shut the game out.
Round 2- Won against GWB 2-1. We both mulled game one and I proceeded to draw seven, because I wasn't paying attention. I called the judge on myself and mulled to five. I still nearly won game one, but two Unburial Rites, both hard casted and flashback and a couple of Restos targeting a Thragtusk made it impossible to dig out. Game 2 and 3 saw me out grind him to victory.
Round 3- Lost against Esper Control 2-1. Rough matchup. Game two saw me on the draw with an opportunity to play a turn three Garruk. I knew the opponent at least had a Supreme Verdict in hand because of an Augur reveal. I decided I had to jam a Garruk through in order to win and hope he did not have Syncopate or Negate in hand. He did not. Garruk stayed in played and churned out beast for the win. This is simply one of our bad matches and I do not believe there is much to be done to fix that. Psychic Spiral feels lackluster because you do not have the counterspells to protect it or the Snapcasters needed to bring it back after it gets milled. I've come to accept that this might just be one of the matches that I cannot turn around without messing with the deck from the bottom up.
Round 4- Lost against 4c Control 2-1. I miss read the deck game one and sided wrong for game two. The deck seemed like a slightly more controlling UWR deck because he never hit a green source. Game two showed me he had a deck capable of out controlling my deck. Game three was a close one, but he cast three Sphinx Revelations and I couldn't overcome the CA and lifegain.
Round 5- Won against Esper Mid 2-0. Garruk and Prime Speaker out draws Sphinx's Revelation and the Sigarda in the board is just mean. Just be careful not to over extend into sweepers without a means to recoup cards and you are good to go. Esper Mid is winnable. Esper Control is miserable. Either way I'd rather play G/R Aggro all day.
Round 6- Officially Lost against 4c Peddler 2-1. I say officially because I was in a weird spot. I had agreed to leave after Rd 5 with my brother since he was fairing poorly and my record meant I had an outside chance at cashing out let alone top 8ing. With a two and a half hour drive ahead we decided to play one for fun and leave. He shows up after ten minutes because he opponent never showed and I felt bad for him hanging around. I won game one, lost game two and could have drawn out game three since I hit the top deck sweeper I needed, but I extended my hand and conceded instead. It is important to note that game three could have gone either way and 4c Peddler is a tough nut to crack and seems like a fun deck to play around with.
As I said I left after six rounds. I tend to enjoy just playing for fun and the idea of sitting around for another six plus hours seem daunting, especially with two losses already in the book (and potentially a third). The deck itself was fun and I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of playing it. My favorite part of the tournament had to be watching an opponent read Collective Blessing three times, just to make sure all the text box said was +3/+3. It seems like such a niche card, but as a miser I enjoy having it.
Random Thoughts.
-For me personally three Prime Speakers is too many. It worked at Indy because people didn't expect the deck. If this deck rises in popularity more people will be prepared for it. I have also had to throw back hands before with double Speaker and do not want to increase the amount of mulligans I have to take any more. I do think three Angel of Serenity is the correct number and will try to find room for a third.
-Collective Blessing. Try it. Love it. Embrace it. The sheer amount of cards you draw make it easy to hit as a one of and it turns games around as soon as it hits. Once your opponent sees it they play completely differently out of fear your deck might suddenly swing for lethal with a couple of dorks and a Resto. Best case scenario you love it. Worse case you run it for a week at FNM and toss it into a junk box when you're done.
-Centaur Healer is probably a safe cut for now because the format is starting to settle a bit. I was glad that I removed the card the night before SCG Indy. I keep a playset handy in case things change, but for now its gone. Four Restoration Angels and four Loxodon Smiter are pretty good roadblocks against aggro.
-I am still questioning whether or not Verdant Haven is good for the deck or not. I cut it a lot and it is not something I am happy to have in my deck on the play, but overall it still seems positive. I think I am cutting a Pilgrim and a Haven for now, but I might just remove Haven all together.
My next big event probably isn't until April 20th so I will be working on testing numbers for a few cards such as Cyclonic Rift and Simic Charm. I'll keep you guys updated on my findings.
I really wish someone would have answered my list but...
There's really no substitute for Thalia against the control match-up. In fact, Thalia is so great, I'm keeping her MB rather than SB, opting out only against HexBant and Aristocrats. Repeatedly grabbing dead Thalias from the graveyard with Serenity is that much more enraging...
Which brings me to my next point: you don't really need that much card draw if you play Serenity. She's her own card advantage machine. My decklist is going through mutations and now holds 4 Somberwald Sages and 4 Angel of Serenity: grabbing your own Sage (or rescuing one from the GY) turns Serenity into this sort of Deathpact Angel. You want 4 Serenities cuz they loop, so 4 Serenity/4 Sages just make good sense. Why do you want 8 mana dorks in the first place? It's not like your three drops are particularly important.
I'm afraid Prime Speaker is just a bit over the top, while Domri helps me smooth out mana curves by at least ensuring I can top deck lands. I'm trying Palissade Giant of all things at the 6CC position. Helps protect Domri, Ulvenwald Trackers, stiffles aggro decks...
Speaking of Domri, I wouldn't expect much from your PWs because Rancor is still a thing. I'm testing strategies between depending on PWs and treating them as disposable... but having as "curve smoother" rather than a "card draw bomb" is preferable at this point. I win with my angels now.
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Bringing Turbo-Hydra back to Standard...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I really wish someone would have answered my list but...
There's really no substitute for Thalia against the control match-up. In fact, Thalia is so great, I'm keeping her MB rather than SB, opting out only against HexBant and Aristocrats. Repeatedly grabbing dead Thalias from the graveyard with Serenity is that much more enraging...
Which brings me to my next point: you don't really need that much card draw if you play Serenity. She's her own card advantage machine. My decklist is going through mutations and now holds 4 Somberwald Sages and 4 Angel of Serenity: grabbing your own Sage (or rescuing one from the GY) turns Serenity into this sort of Deathpact Angel. You want 4 Serenities cuz they loop, so 4 Serenity/4 Sages just make good sense. Why do you want 8 mana dorks in the first place? It's not like your three drops are particularly important.
I'm afraid Prime Speaker is just a bit over the top, while Domri helps me smooth out mana curves by at least ensuring I can top deck lands. I'm trying Palissade Giant of all things at the 6CC position. Helps protect Domri, Ulvenwald Trackers, stiffles aggro decks...
Speaking of Domri, I wouldn't expect much from your PWs because Rancor is still a thing. I'm testing strategies between depending on PWs and treating them as disposable... but having as "curve smoother" rather than a "card draw bomb" is preferable at this point. I win with my angels now.
Eh... I mean, you look kind of silly trashing a deck that just had a major showing. This deck is the real deal. Sage ramps higher, but Pilgrims ramp quicker. And part of the threat is the Gavony Townships that the deck plays. You can use Pilgrim to activate that and block... or use it to swing with your other dudes... but then Pilgrim itself gets big enough to attack later on.
Prime Speaker isn't over the top, because some decks can withstand AoS's card draw. And in any case, there isn't such a thing as having too much card draw in a format where your opponent can just as easily get that card advantage back.
All Dorks are way too vulnerable; you simply cannot expect any of them to last longer than 1 turn. When I play a Sage, I either expect a 1 to 1 removal; or I Serenity Now. This is not silly in the slightest: its a tactic of threat density.
Township is too little too late. It's a big mana investment for counters, which you're not even using in any other way but size (No Zvengina Guildmage, or whatever she's called).
EDIT: Good God, you can get as much as 6 cards off a dead angel! Prime Speaker is a chump.
Maybe I'll get better discussion posting this here, considering this is a Naya Ramp deck. Except that the ramp shell is 4 Somberwald Sage over Pilgrims and thus it ramps higher still, to the 6 drop range and beyond.
Oh, and since Sage mana only applies to creatures, I thought about splashing a bit of red for Domri. Could've splashed blue for Zengana but I'm really digging that potential emblem in a deck based upon bigger, dumber beats. 3-1 split of Domri and Garruk because by the time that I cast a PW, I can often have 5 lands on the board.
Thoughts?
If you want Thalia's effect I'd probably suggest cutting the farseeks for dorks since you can at least draw them on a Domri and Thalia doesn't make them cost more. It also gives you a one drop so you are not wasting a turn and lets you hit a turn two sage more often, but it would require you to rework your mana base a little bit.
I would also add Thragtusk. It is one of the best things any deck running Resto can be playing. I would cut Trostani, the mana cost is a little weird and you can't really use Sage's ramp effectively to cast her. You also do not have many token effects to abuse the populate ability. Rhox Faithmender would probably be a decent replacement if you want the lifegain effect and ensures you can use all the mana generated by Sage. I would probably cut the Sylvan Primordial in favor of Angel of Serenity. Right now there are not a lot of non-creature temperaments that need answering and Acidic Slime does a lot of similar things at a cheaper cost. At the very least it feels like AoS should be mained and SP boarded.
Domri Rade is pretty good. The fight ability is great and the draw can help in a deck overloaded by creatures. Garruk is pretty good to. I would suggest bumping to two and you should consider whether Primal Hunter or Relentless is a better fit. Both are great and do vastly different things.
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and Aurelia, the Warleader are also viable finisher options and you may find your deck benefits from the inclusion of Aurelia's Fury. Your ability to hit a turn four Gisela makes her ability all the more relevant because it is possible you hit her during aggro's "closing out" turns.
I'm not a huge fan of this version of Naya, but that is mostly due to personal preference so take my opinions for what they are worth.
All Dorks are way too vulnerable; you simply cannot expect any of them to last longer than 1 turn. When I play a Sage, I either expect a 1 to 1 removal; or I Serenity Now. This is not silly in the slightest: its a tactic of threat density.
Township is too little too late. It's a big mana investment for counters, which you're not even using in any other way but size (No Zvengina Guildmage, or whatever she's called).
EDIT: Good God, you can get as much as 6 cards off a dead angel! Prime Speaker is a chump.
Uh... well that's funny because a deck with 8 mana dorks, Prime Speaker and Gavony Township recently did pretty well in major tournaments last weekend. You say all those cards suck... I don't know what to tell you.
Mana dorks are vulnerable to wrath effects and removal, but if you are using Searing Spears and Abrupt Decays on Mana dorks taking them out 1 for 1... you'll slow them down a turn, but when it comes time for them to actually land their actual threats (cause it's a deck that plays 28-ish creatures), then those cards are going to kill you. Wrath effects are painful, but usually by the time those come into play you've ramped into the desired card anyway.
Angel of Serenity isn't a joke, but Prime Speaker hits the table and usually is getting 4 cards, and if you thought Resto + Thragtusk was tought, Resto + Prime Speaker is a 5 for 1. And also the deck plays Garruk, which also can -3 and give you cards. I mean, you don't play 4 of all of those cards... but there is no reason not to play stuff like that that gives you card advantage. You play all 3 of those cards and if your opponent tries to deal with any of them separately you have the other two.
Well you just keep telling me that because his deck won a tournament, the dorks must be worth something. Of course you'll never know what to tell people with that mindset.
Dorks make for horrible topdecks. Gavony Township doesn't change that. A dork's value is only as good as the play that follows it, that's why Somberwald Sages and chainable 7 drops are so good. Killing the mana dorks has always been the imperative in MTG; I seriously hope you're not disputing that because that's a whole different principle you should've been acquainted with ages ago. The discussion should be, what do you get for your (vulnerable) mana acceleration? Gavony Township doesn't cut it. For Sages, I've come up with two justifications: Serenity Now (that's what I'm calling my deck now) and being able to play Restoration Angel with a single land untapped... implying that I could play 2 and 3 drops while keeping the option to drop an angel open.
I'm also toying with this crazy idea of getting even more accel off Aurelia untapping Sages on the attack, but that's more of a fancy trick than anything practical. There's no "sorcery phase" between attacks.
I too am playing my (non-Serenity) source of card draw along with Garruk, so I guess the real question should be; do we want to splash red for Domri, or blue for Zegana? Zegana is a "top-of-the-curve" source of card draw; I'm getting bad flashbacks to an experiemental zombie deck I made with Disciple of Bolas and rancored zombies. It didn't work out because if I was forced to play Bolas, then I was already in a bad spot in the first place. With Sages, I could easily ramp into Zegana but the play wouldn't be worth it. I'm afraid Zegana is either useless/win-more in ramps or top-of-the-curve-when-you-actually-need-a-solution-now card draw in midranged.
Ironically, I'm testing Zegana as a singleton in my blueless deck. I'm telling myself that she's not any less playable than Serenity without a Sage present.
@Rancy: No to Aurelia's Fury, maybe to cutting Farseeks for... anything else more interactive with an opponent. Drag is right, we should have Purify the Grave SB, it's just that Domri Rade decks typically have no room for non-creature spells. So instead of an evergreen spell like Farseek, I should build my Domri-based deck so it can have room for 4 non-creature SB cards (such as Purify the Grave), then mainboard something useful against the rest of the decks. And if that potential mainboard non-creature spell is bad against Zombie/Rancor decks (that was the "problem" you were refering to, right?), all the better from being improved by the change. Suggestions from your second paragraph have already been implemented.
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:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Dorks make for horrible topdecks. Gavony Township doesn't change that. A dork's value is only as good as the play that follows it,.
You shouldnt really be in top deck mode very often with this list. The power of how fast you can accelerate to your end game with 7-8 dorks really does trump the 1 out of 7 games you might have to be top decking.
Anyhow, lemme preface with this. I never net deck. That's not to say I play with terrible cards, jank brews, or combo decks, but I absolutely NEVER copy and paste from whatever won the last big tournament. That being said, I'm having a hard time seeing what I would change from John Mytinger's list. I know it didnt quite finish as high as Chris O'bryant's, but I do find it to be more to my liking.
The only main board difference I see is the Selesnya Charms, which I believe is highly relevant. The ability to give trample to close out a game is huge in the late game. But it also gives you a play on turn 2 if you dont have a farseek or dork. It also can take out big fatties that can pose issues for this deck such as Obzedat, Thundermaw Hellkite, or even opposing Angel of Serenity's. I admit, in my Junk Dad build I've been playing with recently, I didnt like this charm, but here it feels right at home.
I'm truly thinking about straight net decking this list (of course I'm still trying to build dark naya simultaneously XD). It seems really really strong with an end game that can even beat Esper control's. I have played against it a lot this past week from starting at last saturdays Maxpoint silver event and on Moogerworks/Cockatrice and my Junk Dad list just can't keep up, and I imagine its the same story for every other mid range deck.
Well I'm officially out of love with Domri. Between Reckoners, Rancors, O.Rings and Dreadbores, planeswalkers are just too inconsistent as sources of card draw. Well at least the incremental ones. Here's a SBless draft of a Bant Serenity Now list
The deck originally had 4 Restoration Angels before I realized that I couldn't blink Serenity. Then I thought of Clone and Cackling Counterpart; they don't work on Zegana but I only have two of her and four of the Angel. Finally I decided, what the hay, we're running Bant colors, let's try 2 Biomancers and 2 Rancors.
I'm also trying Alchemist's refuge as a pseudo Caverns of souls, see how it does. The reasoning behind Selesnya Charm is sound, so I'm trying it out too. With O.Rings as back up.
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:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I dont understand why people prefer to run Prime Speaker Zegana over Sphinx's Revelation.
Sphinx's Revelation > Prime Speaker Zegana
1. Instant.
2. Works well with snapcaster
3. Life gain. (Much better against Naya human in SCG Indiana)
4. Doesn't need another creature to draw cards
Prime Speaker Zegana > Sphinx's Revelation
1. Cant be countered with Cavern of souls (also, only counter is from UW or UWR, Esper. They only run 2~3 counters).
I dont understand why people prefer to run Prime Speaker Zegana over Sphinx's Revelation.
Sphinx's Revelation > Prime Speaker Zegana
1. Instant.
2. Works well with snapcaster
3. Life gain. (Much better against Naya human in SCG Indiana)
4. Doesn't need another creature to draw cards
Prime Speaker Zegana > Sphinx's Revelation
1. Cant be countered with Cavern of souls (also, only counter is from UW or UWR, Esper. They only run 2~3 counters).
The reason is because Prime Speaker can get scary big so shes a threat AND card advantage. Also, while Sphinx's Revelation works well with Snapcaster, Prime Speaker works well with Resto Angel. The fact that it takes a whole turn to Sphinx for 6 gives Esper a chance to stabilize against you. Prime Speaker just lets you play giant beat sticks while drawing your cards.
You are right in that it requires a creature to be a significant play, but the raw power of what you are doing is so good that people think it's worth it. Is it beatable? Sure, but thats the beauty of standard right now. You can play your Sphinx's Rev and they can play their Prime Speaker and chances are, with enough luck, both can probably have a solid chance of success. Both are great cards so ultimately, let your playstyle dictate what to choose.
I dont understand why people prefer to run Prime Speaker Zegana over Sphinx's Revelation.
Sphinx's Revelation > Prime Speaker Zegana
1. Instant.
2. Works well with snapcaster
3. Life gain. (Much better against Naya human in SCG Indiana)
4. Doesn't need another creature to draw cards
Prime Speaker Zegana > Sphinx's Revelation
1. Cant be countered with Cavern of souls (also, only counter is from UW or UWR, Esper. They only run 2~3 counters).
Few points.
1. Speaker is on average more mana efficient when it comes to drawing. She regularly draws four plus cards for six mana.
2. Removal sucks right now. It is all over the place. And the most threatening removal to this deck Mizzium Mortars, Sweepers and exile enchantments are all sorcery speed. Orzhov Charm sees almost no play. Selesnya sees little and cannot remove Resto or Smiter and only deals with half a Thragtusk. Removal can rarely blow you out before she hits.
3. The creatures and spells in this deck are designed with durability in mind. Imagine you have a Thragtusk on the board. They remove Thrag you get a beast draw four cards and they are down a card. You've made up for the power loss. Lets get crazy and say they have two removal cards. Fine. They are down two cards, you draw one and you still have a Zegana to blink. Garruk makes 3/3s to buff her. Thragtusk sticks around after death. Resto can be flashed in EoT to give you a body. You can have Sigarda in the board. Zegana comes out against control where she is weakest anyways. This format is perfect for her.
Yes sometimes she fizzles. Sometimes she sits dead in hand, but Sphinx does that as well. Sometimes you take too much damage for the Revelation to matter. Neither one is truly better than the other IMHO.
If the format changes maybe she gets cut. Right now she is strong against so many decks that its not even funny. Her and Garruk ensure you out grind any midrange deck you face. She plays well with Restoration Angel and ramp. If there was ever a deck built for her to shine it is this one.
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BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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1.) Run a few more threats that are bigger or have evasion. Angel of Serenity alone is not enough and as the list runs now you absolutely have to hit her in order to clear a path to victory, which can take time. Armada Wurm is not a terrible option if you want to stay strictly G/W and Sigarda has her merits, but other colors provide other options which leads me to the second option.
2.) Add a third color. This is the route I went. Each of the other three colors are actually viable options that can contribute to the deck. I choose blue. Caleb ended up adding black to the list he ran at SCG Cincy (which was the event the article was about) and finished in the top 32 at least if I remember correctly.
Here is why I choose blue; Prime Speaker Zegana, Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict and Negate. These cards each add a little bit to the deck and allow them to fight different threats.
Prime Speaker Zegana- She can draw a lot of cards in this deck and backs up Garruk in that role. Her strength is dependent on the board, but a Thragtusk or Sigarda played the turn before usually guarantees she has a body to boost her. Zegana is also a great Restoration Angel target. The only thing she lacks is evasion, but she makes it easier to dig into Angel of Serenity.
Detention Sphere- Great catchall removal. I personally main two and have a third in the side.
Supreme Verdict- Helps you stabilize against the extremely fast aggro decks. You tend to side out excess dorks in some match ups anyway making this less impactful on yourself.
Negate- Its role is similar to Nevermore, but slightly more versatile.
I tried to get a discussion going in the Bant Midrange thread but I couldn't get much of a response either so I'll simply share what I wrote there.
Hey Rancy, thanks for taking the time/hopping in! You've definitely done your homework on this. I did see your post in the Bant thread, and agreed with everything you said on your list pretty much.
But let's address our deck here first, I'm very surprised to see Caleb moved to a complete hybrid reanimator/ramp deck. Link to the deck in question..
I'm more concerned though with what you say are this deck's other problems more than anything, if you could elaborate a bit more? I'm completely with you when you say a T3 Garruk isn't enough to win games, of course he isn't. He absolutely should not be enough to win a game on his own, he's just a 5 drop. But he definitely has the ability to put you ahead, early or later on. Thragtusk has significantly dropped in price too, because Thragtusk alone doesn't win games anymore, either, against aggro like he used to. (The aggro decks at the start of RTR were weak compared to what we're facing nowdays) If anything, this build revolves around combining the two of them to survive first, and then pull ahead - something that they alone wouldn't do for you. And it is constructed in such a way that we can run the full 4 of both, and spit either of them out consistently on T3/4 back to back.
I feel where you're coming from that this deck lacks a Craterhoof Behemoth type win con, or some more evasive hard hitters, it really does feel like it "needs" a Baneslayer Angel. That being said though, I have to disagree on Angel of Serenity not being enough - in the scenario where a "big finisher" to "break through" would be relevant, a midrange vs midrange war (board stall) she is exactly what does the job, clearing their board and allowing me to alpha strike the turn she comes down. Worst case scenario, AoS eats removal, but still costs the opponent a ton of tempo. In regards to the deck just not finding her when we need her, that brings me to the second point - Gavony Township. I don't know if you remember or were around for this past years standard, the Naya Pod mirrors, games were decided by this one key land when the game went to a board stall. If anything, I believe this deck closely resembles it, but has a heavier curve. I also don't personally think the midrange matchups are a concern right now, mostly looking over at Saito Naya - they are very aggressive for a midrange deck, and my priority is surviving them, rather than worrying about adding another big massive powerhouse win-con.
This brings me to my third point in a roundabout way, your own bant list. I'm not exaggerating when I say I've tried the exact same list, even down to the land base, (5 basic Forests, you know what you're doing to make those T1 mana guys consistent) just minus Collective Blessing, there are several problems with it if we're going to line these two decks up and compare side by side. I'm all for Zegana and splashing a third color, don't get me wrong. The deck pretty much starts off as a straight GW deck - any Breeding Pool or Hallowed Fountain we have to play early on is going to force us to eat a lot of shocks. That's my first strike against this build, it won't always be a huge problem for the deck, but I feel it significantly compromises your aggro matchups. I noticed your overall CMC curve is a bit higher than this list too, and isn't running Keyrunes at all, with 7 instead of 8 mana dudes, albeit with a 25th land. Back to the point about Gavony, we're essentially splashing a third color, and adding in 11-12 U sources, eating a ton of shocks along the way, just to be able to land Zegana consistently. And the loss of 3x Gavony is nothing to sneeze at, they really do swing a lot of games for me.
I ultimately decided that I was just trying to force Zegana into an already strong deck, and it really feels like it's only diluting it. In all seriousness, too, what's the point of drawing 24 cards off of Zegana and/or being able to blink her again after that with Restoration Angel? Draw more mana and draw more mana? Nothing to use it on, because, no Gavony or Kessig Wolf Run when we inevitably flood out. I definitely like the Bant version, but I can't help but feel it's missing something, especially a mana sink.
I would also point out just in regards to my own matchup experience with our GW Ramp here, again in comparison to your Bant brew, you stated that Esper/UB is a very rough matchup, but Jund is easier. My own list has been rolling Esper left and right (Ben Stark's version), without concern, any UW control matchup, you simply side in the 3x Nevermore naming Sphinx's Revelation and outdraw them. Again with Gavony Township, it really does win games on it's own against control because you can keep cards in hand, and constantly apply pressure. That reason alone is why I'm willing to guess you say Esper is rough for your Bant brew.
Anyway, sorry for the wall, I appreciate the feedback, and if you could, what other feedback do you have regarding the GW deck that you took to the SCG? How were your matchups/what more can we expand upon? I'm not opposed to the third color, but I'm not convinced just yet that it's worth butchering the manabase/consistency of this deck, if there's some tweaks that can be made for those problem matchups.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
What I meant by AoS not being enough wasn't that she was weak, but that only having three win conditions you did not necessarily want to see in your opening grip made it difficult to close out games in an expedient manner. Sigarda is a better "finisher" in this deck than Thrag and compliments your turn three five drop plan. Zegana provides a good sized body that draws into more threats. I have tried Armada Wurm and the results were good and I recommend you give it a shot in a G/W build. It is particularly good against Naya Mid which can be a rougher match up. I just personally feel three Angel of Serenity alone is not enough.
Esper is just tough because of the grind. The comment was actually directed at someone who was worried about their match ups in the previous thread. I should have edited my post a bit before I copied it to avoid confusion. I personally enjoy Negate over Nevermore, but Nevermore definitely has its own set of advantages over Negate. The biggest reason I like Negate is because it is better against Jund. Personally I find Esper and UB way tougher than Jund regardless of the colors in this deck because stopping the key spells after your opponent empties their hand ramping is the usual strategy against us.
The 12 shocks are actually not a major problem. Against aggro ramp is less important so you have more turns where you can play one tapped. A turn 2 Smiter and a turn 4 Thragtusk is usually a viable line of play. It makes for harder decisions at times, but I feel it is worth it considering the addition of Supreme Verdict from the board. Against other midrange decks (ramp or not) and control the life loss is negligible. I do run two Healers to make it more likely that I see one though for the aggro matches.
Caleb's deck is still true to its roots. What is a reanimator spell really other than a very specific form of ramp? He focuses on hitting land drops and playing threats earlier than his opponents. I like the addition of black because Ghost Dad is pretty good, especially against us and control. Abrupt Decay is great removal and lingering souls can make your Gavony Townships even better.
I do not run keyrunes any more because I felt that when I had to play them turn 3 (such as when Farseek is your only ramp) they were too weak and left me open against aggro. Jund and other decks running Garruk is when you really want an early Garruk. Against aggro a 3/3 sometimes isn't enough to stabilize on the draw especially since you've spent your last two turns practically defenseless and your only blocker can be burned out by searing spear. If we see a new two drop ramp spell of rampant growth quality or better I would definitely be for reworking the mana base and adding it in. I simply feel better cutting the three drop ramp out right now.
I did not fair to well at SCG Cincy both in the main event and in sides but a part of that was due to a lack of testing. I actually got paired against three Naya decks that day and was not fully prepared. I made several missteps that cost me two of those three matches. Naya can be tough because we are both trying to accomplish similar things with similar threats. Now I am more comfortable with the matchup, especially post board, but it can still be a tough fight if they can keep up the pressure long enough. Another reason I did not fair well in those matches and others was because I was too threat light. I just felt like with all the ramp and lands I did not have enough gas. I could gain a lot of life and draw a lot of cards, but would still lose because the quality of the cards I was drawing was not high enough. I did win against a R/W, a G/R and a W/U/R aggro deck fairly easily. In fact aggro decks are the ones I fear the least as they tend to be our strongest matchups.
I cut Gavony because it was too mana and time intensive for my taste. Collective Blessing however provides an immediate impact and most decks cannot remove it. In a way cutting the Townships and adding the Blessing was my way of splitting the baby so to speak. Like many choices however this tends to boil down to personal preference. If I ever switch to G/W/B ramp I would add it just because of lingering soul.
As of now I will be running Bant Ramp at SCG Indy this Saturday. I feel comfortable with the deck and after having a few weeks worth of testing under my belt I feel I will perform better with it.
My only advice is that as an undefined archetype there is a lot of wiggle room when it comes to building a ramp deck and most of your choices will boil down to what you personally prefer. I just recommend you be mindful of your threat density and choose cards that fit both your play style and your strategy. What is the point of having 14 ramp spells if you hardly have anything worth ramping into
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Loxodin Smiter
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Thragtusk
4 Wolfir Silveheart
3 Angel of Serenity
2 Verdant Haven
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
I think that Fiend Hunter gives you some good, early interaction and doubles as a removal spell against certain things (Master Biomancer comes to mind). I prefer the idea of Verdant Haven to the keyrune, especially with Arbor Elf being in the deck. Lastly, I think that Silverheart is the best 5 drop for this deck if you don't need the 5 life right then. It pairs to make any of our mana dorks or even Fiend Hunter super powerful and it works very well with Garruk (turn 3 Garruk, turn 4 Silverheart draw 8).
I also agree that Garruk is bad turn 3 vs. some decks (aggro mostly). You're too far behind at that point without making a turn 2 play that does something.
I haven't had too many colour issues so far, so I'll probably keep it, but I'm still tweaking. I like 3 Restoration Angels over 2 (I'd play 4 if I had room), and I'm testing switching one of the Thrags for Sigarda. I don't know how I feel about the singleton O-Ring just because I can't guarantee I'll get it if I need it, so I replaced it with a Rancor to act as a wincon.
I'm be taking it to a 2.5K this weekend so I'll try to report back with my list and results after. However, I've noticed that I can't really do much against Jund's T2 Farseek, T3 Olivia, and T4 removal/Olivia ping even if I get a T3 Garruk/Thrag out. I don't know how often that happens, but it'll be something to consider with my next tweak.
I like the Keyrunes where they are though-- they're good for some beats after a Verdict and I've even used them to draw off Garruk if the board is empty or if all I have are mana dorks.
I have also considered a light red splash simply to add Wolf Run since its not needed all the time and you can wait to hit it, but I'm unsure of Aurelia's Fury since it will often be used as a very expensive fog effect for us most of the time. It is however great against us as most of the wins my brother's Naya deck has against me are a direct result of that card. It is a valid Nevermore target if you run that card in the board. Hunt Masters are great if you are running a decent amount of red and you get the added bonus of being able to support red damage spells for kill. To me Wolf Run is better than Township if you have the red sources to consistently power it, but it does make you more vulnerable to instant speed removal.
I also run two Detention Spheres main, even with Abrupt Decay seeing a decent amount of play, because I was unsatisfied with just one. If you are worried about Olivia you could always play a Garruk Relentless or two either main or side, because he fights her off fairly well.
I did think about replacing the keyrunes with Verdant Haven as well, but my biggest concern is that Ghost Quarter will begin to see a rise in play. Right now there are a significant number of decks where GC is basically Stripmine and there is a rise of utility lands seeing play as well. The Keyrunes do provide some sweeper protection though and are admittedly better late game draws, but the two life basically negates an attacker for a turn and provides at least a little breathing room. It does make situations where you drop a turn four Angel of Serenity more likely and has the added bonus of allowing you to develop your own board a little as well. I think you've inspired me to go back and relook at adding it, because potentially having six mana turn three and seven turn four with just two cards expended is intriguing.
You can forgo turn two plays on the play, but you definitely need something solid turn three. There has been a few times where I've dropped a dork and a Smiter turn three just to stop the bleeding. Garruk is a safe t3 play against decks without Searing Spear however, because often times they will attack Garruk allowing you to basically gain some life and make a beast token, which is perfectly acceptable against aggro matches. It depends on the deck though. That's the reason I run Supreme Verdict in the board, because even if you lose a dork its worth it, especially against decks that drop multiple Burning-Tree Emissary. You can try terminus in non-blue versions, but be prepared to sacrifice an additional card or two (still worth it though).
I like Armada Wurm and believe there should be some number of them in the deck depending on its colors, but I wouldn't run four or replace Angel of Serenity with any. A 2/2 split seems good especially since you run Resto to blink the Wurm. I would also probably not cut a Thragtusk for a Sigarda because Tusk is better in more matches. Sigarda is only mediocre against swarm based aggro decks. She is a stellar compliment to Thrag either in the main or the board though. She becomes easier to cast with Cavern of Souls because against all non-control decks you usually name Angel with it anyways.
4 Arbor Elves
2 Ulvenwald Tracker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Loxodon Smither
4 Somberwald Mage
3 Restoration Angel
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
4 Armada Wurm
2 Sylvan Primordial
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Farseek
3 Domri Rade
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (24)
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Grove of the Guardian
2 Stomping Ground
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Cavern of Souls
5 Forest
3 Plains
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Centaur Healer
4 Fiend Hunter
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Angel of Serenity
Oh, and since Sage mana only applies to creatures, I thought about splashing a bit of red for Domri. Could've splashed blue for Zengana but I'm really digging that potential emblem in a deck based upon bigger, dumber beats. 3-1 split of Domri and Garruk because by the time that I cast a PW, I can often have 5 lands on the board.
Thoughts?
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Well, Prime Speaker Bant is a breakout deck on the competitive scene now, placing 3 in the top 16 at the biggest SCG open this past weekend, taking even 2nd and 4th place. Is it a fluke, or just well positioned for this month's meta?
I'm going to be in the process of overhauling this thread into a Prime Speaker Bant - I know we have some Bant Midrange builds here, but none of them seem to want to go big/quite focused on the 8 mana guys, 3 Garruks, 3x Angel of Serenity, and 3x Prime Speakers.
Also, I recently played the deck at a SCG classic in Columbia SC this past weekend, not the finish I wanted, but the deck flowed exactly as I wanted it to. 5-3, 1 loss to Jund Aggro, 1 loss to getting rules lawyered on a random deckcheck, and 1 loss to Bant Wolf Run (and going to time). More on those later, but I don't say that to complain, just to kick us off on what Prime Speaker has to offer.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Updated 11/01/13
-->Standard:
:symwg::symwg::symwg: Aggressive Midrange
:symu::symu::symu: Devotion
-->Modern:
:symwg::symrg::symug: Kiki-Jiki Pod
:0mana::symur::0mana: Affinity
Hard control will always be a problematic matchup for this type of deck barring devoting tons of SB slots to that matchup.
Having Cavern of Souls can help though because you can make sure your Angel of Serenitys resolve. I would consider 1-2 Psychic Spiral in the board and perhaps a Dispel or two if you expect a decent amount of esper control using mill as the primary win condition.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Here was my list for SCG Indy
4 Temple Garden
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hinterland Harbor
6 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Angel of Serenity
2 Detention Sphere
2 Verdant Haven
1 Collective Blessing
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Negate
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Silklash Spider
2 Negate
3 Rest in Peace
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
Round 1- Won against UWR 2-0. The games were a little more straight forward than I've come to expect from the matchup and I won without ever being in any real danger. UWR can be problematic and you should always look for ways to maximize CA over your opponent. Resto is a major threat to Garruk, so be mindful of when you play him. This is another deck where you need to figure out where their build is on the control-aggro gradient. If they are loaded up on counterspells your deck is easing pickings because they'll let you dump your hand onto the board and then counter the threat. Most tend to be lighter on counterspells so Cavern of Souls and threat jamming is usually enough. This is a great match for Sigarda to show her strength. Silklash Spider under performed. Its good, but not good enough to be a viable threat when it becomes time to shut the game out.
Round 2- Won against GWB 2-1. We both mulled game one and I proceeded to draw seven, because I wasn't paying attention. I called the judge on myself and mulled to five. I still nearly won game one, but two Unburial Rites, both hard casted and flashback and a couple of Restos targeting a Thragtusk made it impossible to dig out. Game 2 and 3 saw me out grind him to victory.
Round 3- Lost against Esper Control 2-1. Rough matchup. Game two saw me on the draw with an opportunity to play a turn three Garruk. I knew the opponent at least had a Supreme Verdict in hand because of an Augur reveal. I decided I had to jam a Garruk through in order to win and hope he did not have Syncopate or Negate in hand. He did not. Garruk stayed in played and churned out beast for the win. This is simply one of our bad matches and I do not believe there is much to be done to fix that. Psychic Spiral feels lackluster because you do not have the counterspells to protect it or the Snapcasters needed to bring it back after it gets milled. I've come to accept that this might just be one of the matches that I cannot turn around without messing with the deck from the bottom up.
Round 4- Lost against 4c Control 2-1. I miss read the deck game one and sided wrong for game two. The deck seemed like a slightly more controlling UWR deck because he never hit a green source. Game two showed me he had a deck capable of out controlling my deck. Game three was a close one, but he cast three Sphinx Revelations and I couldn't overcome the CA and lifegain.
Round 5- Won against Esper Mid 2-0. Garruk and Prime Speaker out draws Sphinx's Revelation and the Sigarda in the board is just mean. Just be careful not to over extend into sweepers without a means to recoup cards and you are good to go. Esper Mid is winnable. Esper Control is miserable. Either way I'd rather play G/R Aggro all day.
Round 6- Officially Lost against 4c Peddler 2-1. I say officially because I was in a weird spot. I had agreed to leave after Rd 5 with my brother since he was fairing poorly and my record meant I had an outside chance at cashing out let alone top 8ing. With a two and a half hour drive ahead we decided to play one for fun and leave. He shows up after ten minutes because he opponent never showed and I felt bad for him hanging around. I won game one, lost game two and could have drawn out game three since I hit the top deck sweeper I needed, but I extended my hand and conceded instead. It is important to note that game three could have gone either way and 4c Peddler is a tough nut to crack and seems like a fun deck to play around with.
As I said I left after six rounds. I tend to enjoy just playing for fun and the idea of sitting around for another six plus hours seem daunting, especially with two losses already in the book (and potentially a third). The deck itself was fun and I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of playing it. My favorite part of the tournament had to be watching an opponent read Collective Blessing three times, just to make sure all the text box said was +3/+3. It seems like such a niche card, but as a miser I enjoy having it.
Random Thoughts.
-For me personally three Prime Speakers is too many. It worked at Indy because people didn't expect the deck. If this deck rises in popularity more people will be prepared for it. I have also had to throw back hands before with double Speaker and do not want to increase the amount of mulligans I have to take any more. I do think three Angel of Serenity is the correct number and will try to find room for a third.
-Collective Blessing. Try it. Love it. Embrace it. The sheer amount of cards you draw make it easy to hit as a one of and it turns games around as soon as it hits. Once your opponent sees it they play completely differently out of fear your deck might suddenly swing for lethal with a couple of dorks and a Resto. Best case scenario you love it. Worse case you run it for a week at FNM and toss it into a junk box when you're done.
-Centaur Healer is probably a safe cut for now because the format is starting to settle a bit. I was glad that I removed the card the night before SCG Indy. I keep a playset handy in case things change, but for now its gone. Four Restoration Angels and four Loxodon Smiter are pretty good roadblocks against aggro.
-I am still questioning whether or not Verdant Haven is good for the deck or not. I cut it a lot and it is not something I am happy to have in my deck on the play, but overall it still seems positive. I think I am cutting a Pilgrim and a Haven for now, but I might just remove Haven all together.
My next big event probably isn't until April 20th so I will be working on testing numbers for a few cards such as Cyclonic Rift and Simic Charm. I'll keep you guys updated on my findings.
There's really no substitute for Thalia against the control match-up. In fact, Thalia is so great, I'm keeping her MB rather than SB, opting out only against HexBant and Aristocrats. Repeatedly grabbing dead Thalias from the graveyard with Serenity is that much more enraging...
Which brings me to my next point: you don't really need that much card draw if you play Serenity. She's her own card advantage machine. My decklist is going through mutations and now holds 4 Somberwald Sages and 4 Angel of Serenity: grabbing your own Sage (or rescuing one from the GY) turns Serenity into this sort of Deathpact Angel. You want 4 Serenities cuz they loop, so 4 Serenity/4 Sages just make good sense. Why do you want 8 mana dorks in the first place? It's not like your three drops are particularly important.
I'm afraid Prime Speaker is just a bit over the top, while Domri helps me smooth out mana curves by at least ensuring I can top deck lands. I'm trying Palissade Giant of all things at the 6CC position. Helps protect Domri, Ulvenwald Trackers, stiffles aggro decks...
Speaking of Domri, I wouldn't expect much from your PWs because Rancor is still a thing. I'm testing strategies between depending on PWs and treating them as disposable... but having as "curve smoother" rather than a "card draw bomb" is preferable at this point. I win with my angels now.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Eh... I mean, you look kind of silly trashing a deck that just had a major showing. This deck is the real deal. Sage ramps higher, but Pilgrims ramp quicker. And part of the threat is the Gavony Townships that the deck plays. You can use Pilgrim to activate that and block... or use it to swing with your other dudes... but then Pilgrim itself gets big enough to attack later on.
Prime Speaker isn't over the top, because some decks can withstand AoS's card draw. And in any case, there isn't such a thing as having too much card draw in a format where your opponent can just as easily get that card advantage back.
Township is too little too late. It's a big mana investment for counters, which you're not even using in any other way but size (No Zvengina Guildmage, or whatever she's called).
EDIT: Good God, you can get as much as 6 cards off a dead angel! Prime Speaker is a chump.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I wasn't able to follow mtg stuff the last week and a half or so. I only started seeing this deck recently and my friends just told me about it.
When did this deck started seeing play?
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Yes.
2ish weeks ago, I believe.
Did some more testing with this deck, this time vs. Naya Humans. I won the majority of the games, but they were pretty close.
Updated 11/01/13
-->Standard:
:symwg::symwg::symwg: Aggressive Midrange
:symu::symu::symu: Devotion
-->Modern:
:symwg::symrg::symug: Kiki-Jiki Pod
:0mana::symur::0mana: Affinity
If you want Thalia's effect I'd probably suggest cutting the farseeks for dorks since you can at least draw them on a Domri and Thalia doesn't make them cost more. It also gives you a one drop so you are not wasting a turn and lets you hit a turn two sage more often, but it would require you to rework your mana base a little bit.
I would also add Thragtusk. It is one of the best things any deck running Resto can be playing. I would cut Trostani, the mana cost is a little weird and you can't really use Sage's ramp effectively to cast her. You also do not have many token effects to abuse the populate ability. Rhox Faithmender would probably be a decent replacement if you want the lifegain effect and ensures you can use all the mana generated by Sage. I would probably cut the Sylvan Primordial in favor of Angel of Serenity. Right now there are not a lot of non-creature temperaments that need answering and Acidic Slime does a lot of similar things at a cheaper cost. At the very least it feels like AoS should be mained and SP boarded.
Domri Rade is pretty good. The fight ability is great and the draw can help in a deck overloaded by creatures. Garruk is pretty good to. I would suggest bumping to two and you should consider whether Primal Hunter or Relentless is a better fit. Both are great and do vastly different things.
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and Aurelia, the Warleader are also viable finisher options and you may find your deck benefits from the inclusion of Aurelia's Fury. Your ability to hit a turn four Gisela makes her ability all the more relevant because it is possible you hit her during aggro's "closing out" turns.
I'm not a huge fan of this version of Naya, but that is mostly due to personal preference so take my opinions for what they are worth.
Uh... well that's funny because a deck with 8 mana dorks, Prime Speaker and Gavony Township recently did pretty well in major tournaments last weekend. You say all those cards suck... I don't know what to tell you.
Mana dorks are vulnerable to wrath effects and removal, but if you are using Searing Spears and Abrupt Decays on Mana dorks taking them out 1 for 1... you'll slow them down a turn, but when it comes time for them to actually land their actual threats (cause it's a deck that plays 28-ish creatures), then those cards are going to kill you. Wrath effects are painful, but usually by the time those come into play you've ramped into the desired card anyway.
Angel of Serenity isn't a joke, but Prime Speaker hits the table and usually is getting 4 cards, and if you thought Resto + Thragtusk was tought, Resto + Prime Speaker is a 5 for 1. And also the deck plays Garruk, which also can -3 and give you cards. I mean, you don't play 4 of all of those cards... but there is no reason not to play stuff like that that gives you card advantage. You play all 3 of those cards and if your opponent tries to deal with any of them separately you have the other two.
Dorks make for horrible topdecks. Gavony Township doesn't change that. A dork's value is only as good as the play that follows it, that's why Somberwald Sages and chainable 7 drops are so good. Killing the mana dorks has always been the imperative in MTG; I seriously hope you're not disputing that because that's a whole different principle you should've been acquainted with ages ago. The discussion should be, what do you get for your (vulnerable) mana acceleration? Gavony Township doesn't cut it. For Sages, I've come up with two justifications: Serenity Now (that's what I'm calling my deck now) and being able to play Restoration Angel with a single land untapped... implying that I could play 2 and 3 drops while keeping the option to drop an angel open.
I'm also toying with this crazy idea of getting even more accel off Aurelia untapping Sages on the attack, but that's more of a fancy trick than anything practical. There's no "sorcery phase" between attacks.
I too am playing my (non-Serenity) source of card draw along with Garruk, so I guess the real question should be; do we want to splash red for Domri, or blue for Zegana? Zegana is a "top-of-the-curve" source of card draw; I'm getting bad flashbacks to an experiemental zombie deck I made with Disciple of Bolas and rancored zombies. It didn't work out because if I was forced to play Bolas, then I was already in a bad spot in the first place. With Sages, I could easily ramp into Zegana but the play wouldn't be worth it. I'm afraid Zegana is either useless/win-more in ramps or top-of-the-curve-when-you-actually-need-a-solution-now card draw in midranged.
Ironically, I'm testing Zegana as a singleton in my blueless deck. I'm telling myself that she's not any less playable than Serenity without a Sage present.
@Rancy: No to Aurelia's Fury, maybe to cutting Farseeks for... anything else more interactive with an opponent. Drag is right, we should have Purify the Grave SB, it's just that Domri Rade decks typically have no room for non-creature spells. So instead of an evergreen spell like Farseek, I should build my Domri-based deck so it can have room for 4 non-creature SB cards (such as Purify the Grave), then mainboard something useful against the rest of the decks. And if that potential mainboard non-creature spell is bad against Zombie/Rancor decks (that was the "problem" you were refering to, right?), all the better from being improved by the change. Suggestions from your second paragraph have already been implemented.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
You shouldnt really be in top deck mode very often with this list. The power of how fast you can accelerate to your end game with 7-8 dorks really does trump the 1 out of 7 games you might have to be top decking.
Anyhow, lemme preface with this. I never net deck. That's not to say I play with terrible cards, jank brews, or combo decks, but I absolutely NEVER copy and paste from whatever won the last big tournament. That being said, I'm having a hard time seeing what I would change from John Mytinger's list. I know it didnt quite finish as high as Chris O'bryant's, but I do find it to be more to my liking.
The only main board difference I see is the Selesnya Charms, which I believe is highly relevant. The ability to give trample to close out a game is huge in the late game. But it also gives you a play on turn 2 if you dont have a farseek or dork. It also can take out big fatties that can pose issues for this deck such as Obzedat, Thundermaw Hellkite, or even opposing Angel of Serenity's. I admit, in my Junk Dad build I've been playing with recently, I didnt like this charm, but here it feels right at home.
I'm truly thinking about straight net decking this list (of course I'm still trying to build dark naya simultaneously XD). It seems really really strong with an end game that can even beat Esper control's. I have played against it a lot this past week from starting at last saturdays Maxpoint silver event and on Moogerworks/Cockatrice and my Junk Dad list just can't keep up, and I imagine its the same story for every other mid range deck.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
4 Arbor Elf
4 Somberwald Sage
4 Loxodon Smither
2 Master Biomancer
3 Thragtusk
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
4 Angel of Serenity
2 Rancor
4 Farseek
3 Selesnya Charm
2 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalker (2)
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (24)
3 Alchemist's Refuge
4 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hinterland Harbor
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
The deck originally had 4 Restoration Angels before I realized that I couldn't blink Serenity. Then I thought of Clone and Cackling Counterpart; they don't work on Zegana but I only have two of her and four of the Angel. Finally I decided, what the hay, we're running Bant colors, let's try 2 Biomancers and 2 Rancors.
I'm also trying Alchemist's refuge as a pseudo Caverns of souls, see how it does. The reasoning behind Selesnya Charm is sound, so I'm trying it out too. With O.Rings as back up.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Sphinx's Revelation > Prime Speaker Zegana
1. Instant.
2. Works well with snapcaster
3. Life gain. (Much better against Naya human in SCG Indiana)
4. Doesn't need another creature to draw cards
Prime Speaker Zegana > Sphinx's Revelation
1. Cant be countered with Cavern of souls (also, only counter is from UW or UWR, Esper. They only run 2~3 counters).
The reason is because Prime Speaker can get scary big so shes a threat AND card advantage. Also, while Sphinx's Revelation works well with Snapcaster, Prime Speaker works well with Resto Angel. The fact that it takes a whole turn to Sphinx for 6 gives Esper a chance to stabilize against you. Prime Speaker just lets you play giant beat sticks while drawing your cards.
You are right in that it requires a creature to be a significant play, but the raw power of what you are doing is so good that people think it's worth it. Is it beatable? Sure, but thats the beauty of standard right now. You can play your Sphinx's Rev and they can play their Prime Speaker and chances are, with enough luck, both can probably have a solid chance of success. Both are great cards so ultimately, let your playstyle dictate what to choose.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Few points.
1. Speaker is on average more mana efficient when it comes to drawing. She regularly draws four plus cards for six mana.
2. Removal sucks right now. It is all over the place. And the most threatening removal to this deck Mizzium Mortars, Sweepers and exile enchantments are all sorcery speed. Orzhov Charm sees almost no play. Selesnya sees little and cannot remove Resto or Smiter and only deals with half a Thragtusk. Removal can rarely blow you out before she hits.
3. The creatures and spells in this deck are designed with durability in mind. Imagine you have a Thragtusk on the board. They remove Thrag you get a beast draw four cards and they are down a card. You've made up for the power loss. Lets get crazy and say they have two removal cards. Fine. They are down two cards, you draw one and you still have a Zegana to blink. Garruk makes 3/3s to buff her. Thragtusk sticks around after death. Resto can be flashed in EoT to give you a body. You can have Sigarda in the board. Zegana comes out against control where she is weakest anyways. This format is perfect for her.
Yes sometimes she fizzles. Sometimes she sits dead in hand, but Sphinx does that as well. Sometimes you take too much damage for the Revelation to matter. Neither one is truly better than the other IMHO.
If the format changes maybe she gets cut. Right now she is strong against so many decks that its not even funny. Her and Garruk ensure you out grind any midrange deck you face. She plays well with Restoration Angel and ramp. If there was ever a deck built for her to shine it is this one.