So now that the rules for legendaries and PW have been changed, how do you guy think it will affect the standard environment (legacy looks like it is going to have a WHOLE slue of funw ith this one).
Personally, I think this is going to suck with Giest of St. Traft, since mimic killing is not much of an option anymore (so there goes one more way to stop him) and it makes the Jund vs Jund match ups... interesting. It feels like the main decks it affects is going to be Midrange decks (Jund in particular, and the Prime Speaker Bant decks), Junk tokens (both players can now run around with Sorin), and control (ALL THE JACES!).
What I am also interested in is the implications this will have with future standard (with Theros and all) but that is for a different forum xD.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Everyone focuses on the Hexproof. There are other ways to deal with a 2/2. Sigarda also is interesting in this, but I don't think it's the end of the world.
Know what this does though? Firstly it makes control mirrors completely different. Often in previous formats it was a matter of who controlled the walker first. And trying to find a way to force it. I mean I might even want to play more planeswalkers and different ones if I can say use their minus then play another and use another ability. This actually makes things really awkward with like Jace Architect of Thought for aggro. Like let's say he goes down to 1. If the aggro deck doesn't finish him off. You + him, replay another one and then -2 or plus it.
Anything legendary with abilities you might be able to doubleshot to me is the most interesting interaction. Cards like Vendillion Clique.. ETB legendary creatures. If anything this will probably be better for the controlling side of things than what the Hexproof aspect does especially in Standard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
I've never had geist cloned once in standard.. blocked, sure, booardwiped yes, but never clone.. It will be fine, relax..
If all else fails, you have the spotlight:p
I've never had geist cloned once in standard.. blocked, sure, booardwiped yes, but never clone.. It will be fine, relax..
If all else fails, you have the spotlight:p
You obviously didn't play before Scars rotated, because Phantasmal Image was the out to him. We have no great cheap clone effects now, so you wouldn't have to worry about this.
I just have dreams of using Progenitor Mimic to copy whatever legendaries may come in Theros. Preferably with awesome ETB abilities (obzedat, mmmm).
Where? The price doesn't really seem to have changed noticeably since the announcement, and to be honest I'm not sure why it would. This change might change how matches between two Jace decks are played out, but I don't think it'll make Jace go in decks he previously wasn't, or make decks play more copies of Jace.
i don't like the change because this actually stifles design. How many legendary with hexproof do you think will be made now?
They could have "copy non-legendary" or "the legend rule does not apply" on clone. A sweeping rules change wasn't needed.
The planeswalker rule is an attempt to make them stronger without making stronger walkers. WotC keep pushing creatures which is the best way to fight walkers. They can continue to put mediocre abilities on them like they have for the past 2 years. Allowing you 2 activations a turn could tilt them to playable and 4 ofs in decks.
WotC needs to sell packs. Legends and Planeswalkers often occupy mythic slots. The new rules allow players to play more of them in their decks. This will sell more packs which is the underlining reason for the change.
I don't think designs will change radically because of this as most legendary/PW are influenced by creative needs rather than development, and hexproof is still going to be printed even if there's one less solution. Sure phantasmal image is less effective at killing legendaries but people just need to modify their decks and move on. I doubt the new rules going to massively increase the strength of Bant Auras - it was strong but beatable before, it will remain so.
I am not overly worried about this in Standard. At worst, there will be a 3 month stretch where Geist and Sigarda become a nightmare before they rotate. All the new blocks are likely designed with the new rule in mind.
Modern will likely be hellish until they break out the banhammer, but they use that so liberally in Modern that I doubt any Geist/Thrun issues will last very long. The changes terrify me in Legacy, particularly the lack of clean answers to JTMS and Jitte for a lot of decks. I won't predict the death of the format but I cannot say these changes make the format better.
Overall, I disapprove of the legend/planeswalker changes but I doubt it will get me to stop playing unless something really degenerate happens.
Standard: RWUJeskai Modern: RWGBurn, GRWUBSlivers Legacy: RBurn EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders) Current decklists are posted here
i don't like the change because this actually stifles design. How many legendary with hexproof do you think will be made now?
They could have "copy non-legendary" or "the legend rule does not apply" on clone. A sweeping rules change wasn't needed.
The planeswalker rule is an attempt to make them stronger without making stronger walkers. WotC keep pushing creatures which is the best way to fight walkers. They can continue to put mediocre abilities on them like they have for the past 2 years. Allowing you 2 activations a turn could tilt them to playable and 4 ofs in decks.
WotC needs to sell packs. Legends and Planeswalkers often occupy mythic slots. The new rules allow players to play more of them in their decks. This will sell more packs which is the underlining reason for the change.
Other than GoST and Sigarda, Legends with Hexproof weren't that common. And perhaps that's why they waited until those cards were about to rotate out before they made the change.
I think that in the case of those two cards, they used the Legend rule as a crutch because they knew if either of those cards broke the format, the popularity of the cards would also be the answer that kept it from getting out of hand.
But for future design, they are probably turning legends into creatures that are designed to be played as only 2-3 ofs in decks. That's what the legend rule is going to be doing from now on. Because before the rule change, the legend rule created weird mirror match situations where legends were being used as removal rather than as their normal functionality. Now, there is nothing wrong with Olivia being able to kill another Olivia... but clearly they want to move away from that design.
And finally on the subject of clones. Do you guys not see how this can completely open the door wide for future clone cards to be pushed more than usual? Something like Phantasmal Image was primarily used as a legend killer, and then second to nuetralize a threat like Thragtusk and third to serve as a copy of a creature you control for cheaper. If you take away the first use... they can push the power level of clone spells/cards because now it's not removing the best creatures in the game for cheap. We might see something like Phantasmal Image printed in the future. Maybe something that clones planeswalkers and creatures in the same was Phrexian Metamorph cloned artifacts and creatures.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I think that the rule change is bad. While it does allow for better clones which I'm all for as I like the shapeshifter creature type, I think that it is going to first hurt type 2 with Sigarda and also destroy modern until WotC decides to ban Thrun and sigarda
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bring back Birds of Paradise! We need REAL mana excel!
The change isn't even a straight nerf to Clone anyway. There are many situations where cloning your legend is going to be a lot better than killing it (the most common being when they have another in hand ready to play).
The change isn't even a straight nerf to Clone anyway. There are many situations where cloning your legend is going to be a lot better than killing it (the most common being when they have another in hand ready to play).
another interesting effect of this is going to be out of format due to Emrakul. Cheated Emrakul is not played from the hand, but the cloned one is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:UWBRG MAGIC: The Gathering UWBRG
I really love how everyone assumes magic can't design precise killing tools that get around targetting without making the clones the targets. First off, I'm pretty certain that the guys in R & D are already templating a few duplicant type guys who just honeybadger the hexproof guys, and I won't be shocked if they take clone text in order to kill things. Something like:
Mr. Ihatedahexproof - 1WW
~ enters the battlefield removing a creature from the field. If ~ leaves the battlefield, return that creature to play under it's owners control.
1/3
There is also the option of
Mr. Istealdahexproof - 1UU
~ enters the battlefield controlling a creature. When ~ leaves play return that creature to it's owner's control.
That's off the top of my head. They have created design space, and I'm also taking Spectral Searchlight as a sign that they recognize that hexproof is very strong, and needs appropriate answers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Personally, I think this is going to suck with Giest of St. Traft, since mimic killing is not much of an option anymore (so there goes one more way to stop him) and it makes the Jund vs Jund match ups... interesting. It feels like the main decks it affects is going to be Midrange decks (Jund in particular, and the Prime Speaker Bant decks), Junk tokens (both players can now run around with Sorin), and control (ALL THE JACES!).
What I am also interested in is the implications this will have with future standard (with Theros and all) but that is for a different forum xD.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Know what this does though? Firstly it makes control mirrors completely different. Often in previous formats it was a matter of who controlled the walker first. And trying to find a way to force it. I mean I might even want to play more planeswalkers and different ones if I can say use their minus then play another and use another ability. This actually makes things really awkward with like Jace Architect of Thought for aggro. Like let's say he goes down to 1. If the aggro deck doesn't finish him off. You + him, replay another one and then -2 or plus it.
Anything legendary with abilities you might be able to doubleshot to me is the most interesting interaction. Cards like Vendillion Clique.. ETB legendary creatures. If anything this will probably be better for the controlling side of things than what the Hexproof aspect does especially in Standard.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
If all else fails, you have the spotlight:p
You obviously didn't play before Scars rotated, because Phantasmal Image was the out to him. We have no great cheap clone effects now, so you wouldn't have to worry about this.
I just have dreams of using Progenitor Mimic to copy whatever legendaries may come in Theros. Preferably with awesome ETB abilities (obzedat, mmmm).
It was the sound of JtMS' price jumping.
They could have "copy non-legendary" or "the legend rule does not apply" on clone. A sweeping rules change wasn't needed.
The planeswalker rule is an attempt to make them stronger without making stronger walkers. WotC keep pushing creatures which is the best way to fight walkers. They can continue to put mediocre abilities on them like they have for the past 2 years. Allowing you 2 activations a turn could tilt them to playable and 4 ofs in decks.
WotC needs to sell packs. Legends and Planeswalkers often occupy mythic slots. The new rules allow players to play more of them in their decks. This will sell more packs which is the underlining reason for the change.
Modern will likely be hellish until they break out the banhammer, but they use that so liberally in Modern that I doubt any Geist/Thrun issues will last very long. The changes terrify me in Legacy, particularly the lack of clean answers to JTMS and Jitte for a lot of decks. I won't predict the death of the format but I cannot say these changes make the format better.
Overall, I disapprove of the legend/planeswalker changes but I doubt it will get me to stop playing unless something really degenerate happens.
DCI Rules Advisor
MTGO/Cockatrice: BlakLanner
My YouTube Channel
Modern: RWGBurn, GRWUBSlivers
Legacy: RBurn
EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders)
Current decklists are posted here
Other than GoST and Sigarda, Legends with Hexproof weren't that common. And perhaps that's why they waited until those cards were about to rotate out before they made the change.
I think that in the case of those two cards, they used the Legend rule as a crutch because they knew if either of those cards broke the format, the popularity of the cards would also be the answer that kept it from getting out of hand.
But for future design, they are probably turning legends into creatures that are designed to be played as only 2-3 ofs in decks. That's what the legend rule is going to be doing from now on. Because before the rule change, the legend rule created weird mirror match situations where legends were being used as removal rather than as their normal functionality. Now, there is nothing wrong with Olivia being able to kill another Olivia... but clearly they want to move away from that design.
And finally on the subject of clones. Do you guys not see how this can completely open the door wide for future clone cards to be pushed more than usual? Something like Phantasmal Image was primarily used as a legend killer, and then second to nuetralize a threat like Thragtusk and third to serve as a copy of a creature you control for cheaper. If you take away the first use... they can push the power level of clone spells/cards because now it's not removing the best creatures in the game for cheap. We might see something like Phantasmal Image printed in the future. Maybe something that clones planeswalkers and creatures in the same was Phrexian Metamorph cloned artifacts and creatures.
Other than that, planeswalkers now do different things. Jace probably gets better along with sorin...maybe.
another interesting effect of this is going to be out of format due to Emrakul. Cheated Emrakul is not played from the hand, but the cloned one is.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Trigger for extra turn goes off from the stack. Clone isn't an Emrakul until it hits play.
Mr. Ihatedahexproof - 1WW
~ enters the battlefield removing a creature from the field. If ~ leaves the battlefield, return that creature to play under it's owners control.
1/3
There is also the option of
Mr. Istealdahexproof - 1UU
~ enters the battlefield controlling a creature. When ~ leaves play return that creature to it's owner's control.
That's off the top of my head. They have created design space, and I'm also taking Spectral Searchlight as a sign that they recognize that hexproof is very strong, and needs appropriate answers.