I like the Deathrites a lot. I've been testing reanimator tons the last couple days and I think Thundermaw Hellkite is about the best card in the matchup. I even tried Zealous Conscripts etc.. I really like Deathrite main.. the difficulty comes in that you really want to be able to do T3 Falkenrath to T4 Thundermaw. I find Deathrites mana ability the most important but sometimes Reanimator won't have the hand that plays into it.
I tried Olivia for a while which was very good but also a turn too slow. T5 is too slow to really get stuff happening and Centaur Healer can stone wall early aggression. Killing their dorks is huge. I think Golgari Charm or Bonfire of the Damned is a better approach than Appetite for Destruction. They have way too many hands with multiple good targets to take and they don't have to waste their mana when you force discard. If you can throttle their mana and you have Hellkite it doesn't matter now many Thragtusks in a row they play.
The difficulty is no removal is particularly good. There is no way to run enough removal that exiles. Sever needs too much mana. Like you want a couple Spears to clear early blocks but while a perfect timed slip will take out the first dork, they don't need the ramp til T4, and likely have the 2nd. It's especially awkward if you didn't play a threat to do so (luckily most of ours have haste). So actually Bonfire/Golgari is better.
Threaten effects are ok at best. The problem is outside of Conscripts unless you prevented the lifegain from Thragtusk, you are just swinging back the same. They have to be already in the single digits for this to work. This happens enough of the games when you play first but it is almost completely dead afterwards. I don't really want a plan the relies on them playing any of their much more powerful spells.
So to beat them you almost have to play bigger threats and a bit of ramp yourself in some hands. Turn them into a bad midrange deck. Basically do what GW does to them. You can continue to try to beat face low curve but I couldn't find the right combination to do it consistently enough. You sometimes get too much removal that doesn't matter against their value. Other times not enough and they just stonewall you.
Hellrider is alright. I really dislike it as more than a 2 of mind you after testing some more. You basically just have to pray you dodge Reckoner.. and even against Centaur Healer versions of Reanimator it's a little weak. Like you can't slam Hellrider if they have a dork, Healer opening, and have Resto Angel up. But I'd be ok with Falkenrath there probably. Although I do like how much damage it can do in the right situations. Almost like holding an Overrun. As Hunter mentioned it's much better with Strangleroot Geist, but Geist sort of has all the same issues with walls without Rancor.
I've been testing and tuning for WCQ. Against JunkRites, Lingering Souls has been giving me a lot of problem. It does very well stopping our early aggression, 6 points of damage with just half a card. Need not to say, it also blocks our aristocrats like a boss. The only cards we have against it are Ghor-Clan Rampager and Thundermaw Hellkite.
Against Restoration Angel my favourite answer is the Ghor-Clan Rampager's bloodrush. I mean it's generally obvious when an angel enters the battlefield ("Oh you didn't play anything and let 4 mana open ? I wonder why !") Dreadbore and Mizzium Mortars are fine too
Loxodon Smiter can be a real pain in the ass cause it just smites all your poorn turn 1, 2 and 3. At this point I see some aswers :
Centaur Healer is easy to get rid off and won't slow you too much, normally. He's not Thraggy.
I tested Skullcrack a little bit and I don't like it that much. It forces you to leave some mana open in case of lifegain. So, when you opponents is able to cast a Thragtusk you won't play your turn 4 fearing not having the mana to crack his or her skull. Against Sphinx's Revelation it's even harder to predict.
Anyway there's a lot of fun when you cast this card
But one is certainly not enough : what are the odds to have it at the right time ?
Maybe I should try Electrickery as an one of in the SB. It is a powerful card against JunkRites.
I don't like neither Dreadbore nor Mizzium Mortars against Restoration Angel. You want to keep pressuring your opponent. Baiting that angel out and kill it the following turn is tempo loss. Ghor-Clan Rampager is great, but some of the decks that play angel also has Azorius Charm and I often find myself siding the rampagers out.
For the moment I am staying with the Experiment One shell, but because of the move to additional removal, I am going back to Hellrider from Cryptborn Horror. I want something outside Abrupt Decay range with Haste, plus the damage from the triggers, over a bigger body and trample.
Not saying I would not change it up. I would consider
+2 Land
+2 Thundermaw Hellkite
-3 Rakdos Cackler
-1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
I'm tinkering with sideboard packages and have the following in mind:
Core
Drew for 1st tonight. I seem to be Top 3 every wednesday and friday night with this. Sometimes 1st place in a decent group of 20-35 people. This has been my standard deck for a month or so. In every way that count its basically Naya blitz except Domri keeps my deck from petering out and everything is just damn hard to get off the table.
Tonight I started thinking about swapping Wasteland viper for Deathrite shamans but Deathrite tend to just do work. Pinging for 2 or life gain really lets me play a long game if I need to. I refuse to let them go. I see people loading in removal in this deck and I just cant do it. This is a deck for turning cards not playing poker. You have to play this deck and wear shades indoors like you don't give a ****
Drew for 1st tonight. I seem to be Top 3 every wednesday and friday night with this. Sometimes 1st place in a decent group of 20-35 people. This has been my standard deck for a month or so. In every way that count its basically Naya blitz except Domri keeps my deck from petering out and everything is just damn hard to get off the table.
Tonight I started thinking about swapping Wasteland viper for Deathrite shamans but Deathrite tend to just do work. Pinging for 2 or life gain really lets me play a long game if I need to. I refuse to let them go. I see people loading in removal in this deck and I just cant do it. This is a deck for turning cards not playing poker. You have to play this deck and wear shades indoors like you don't give a ****
I'm intrigued by your build. Aside from the lack of removal main, and the fact that I would still run Mogg Flunkies over Strangleroot Geist, the very creature heavy build seems to have a lot of gas.
How are you feeling about the lack of Searing Spear?
How well are you hitting land drops to get to 5 mana with only 22 lands?
I would probably go something like this, since I want instant speed removal main, a little more Red for Hellrider and Thundermaw, Mogg Flunkies instead of Strangleroot Geist, and if I go two Thundermaw + Vampire Nighthawk, extra land to make my R/B drops and Kessig to really take advantage of Nighthawk's lifegain.
I'm intrigued by your build. Aside from the lack of removal main, and the fact that I would still run Mogg Flunkies over Strangleroot Geist, the very creature heavy build seems to have a lot of gas.
How are you feeling about the lack of Searing Spear?
How well are you hitting land drops to get to 5 mana with only 22 lands?
I would probably go something like this, since I want instant speed removal main, a little more Red for Hellrider and Thundermaw, Mogg Flunkies instead of Strangleroot Geist, and if I go two Thundermaw + Vampire Nighthawk, extra land to make my R/B drops and Kessig to really take advantage of Nighthawk's lifegain.
Seeing 5 mana is 50/50 I need 4 mana to ultimate into Aristo or hellrider. I probably would get lucky to see 5 mana turn 6 or 7 but Thundermaw is just a lottery ticket I hope to see turn 7 - 10. Truthfully my deck is built around my meta. Its possible I'd get my head kicked in at a tournament. I think you have to ask yourself what you're up against. Whats Ultimate Price going to do for you? Another problem is Burning-tree gives R/G so that ultimate price isn't gonna do you much good in the early game without slowing you down. The reason I don't play Searing Spear though I think it's a great card is it just didn't do the work I need it too. I think mainboard cards need to be pure synergy. I like the viper because in all likelyhood a bant deck will have a smiter out on turn two or three. It would be nice to be swinging with an EO, burning tree and flinthoof on turn three. Get blocked by a smiter and whack it with a wasteland viper. You'll never see me play mogg flunkies because I'm certain people will play around them. Its a personal local meta choice. I saw some other cool options though. Lightning mauler, crimson muckraker, chainwalker, Wandering Wolf. I play the strangeroot for now because it has haste, undying and plays to my primary colors. I'm not depedent on burning tree for a badass turn 2 play. I pulled kessig out of my sideboard. My mana is very fragile I want all 3 colors on turn 3. I also avoid 1 of's despite it being all the rage with Pros because the percentage of seeing 1 card in a deck is too low for me. Siding in one card "might" help, but I need a sideboard that "will" make a difference.
Going off of what I was saying in my last post I think I want to try this. It's a bit like the greedy stuff I was talking about in the last thread but I think in this format it's still reasonable. I was having a ton of trouble with Flash before but Deathrite Shaman really did numbers there I didn't expect. It's pretty much good enough to main deck. I was running 3 but there were too many times it didn't do anything early. It was while playing it I realized how much I really wanted an arbor elf for acceleration. I was trying all these low curve Experiment One things but they could get just stumped. The risk of a greedy list is not curving out mind you when someone kills your acceleration. Stilll the pay off makes the reanimator matchup much better. I was worried Gyre Sage would be a bit out of place with Arbor Elf hands but often enough.. you can play Gyre Sage on T3. You go Arbor Elf.. T2.. Domri or Dreg Mangler. T3 Sage + Boar etc.. T4 Hellkite.. it means that Sage is more of a beater than anything but that's ok since it rounds out when you don't have Arbor Elf hands.
The final bit was watching Kibler play a Green-Red deck with 22 lands and 6 5 drops sometimes siding into 7-8 5 drops on SCG today. This is a greedy format. I understand this leads to some more mulligans but I'm used to that style of deck. I'm going to give this list a try:
Going off of what I was saying in my last post I think I want to try this. It's a bit like the greedy stuff I was talking about in the last thread but I think in this format it's still reasonable. I was having a ton of trouble with Flash before but Deathrite Shaman really did numbers there I didn't expect. It's pretty much good enough to main deck. I was running 3 but there were too many times it didn't do anything early. It was while playing it I realized how much I really wanted an arbor elf for acceleration. I was trying all these low curve Experiment One things but they could get just stumped. The risk of a greedy list is not curving out mind you when someone kills your acceleration. Stilll the pay off makes the reanimator matchup much better. I was worried Gyre Sage would be a bit out of place with Arbor Elf hands but often enough.. you can play Gyre Sage on T3. You go Arbor Elf.. T2.. Domri or Dreg Mangler. T3 Sage + Boar etc.. T4 Hellkite.. it means that Sage is more of a beater than anything but that's ok since it rounds out when you don't have Arbor Elf hands.
The final bit was watching Kibler play a Green-Red deck with 22 lands and 6 5 drops sometimes siding into 7-8 5 drops on SCG today. This is a greedy format. I understand this leads to some more mulligans but I'm used to that style of deck. I'm going to give this list a try:
Sheesh 4 thundermaws. Id hate to be looking at that board state. I'd say toss that Mountain and get a forest. I'll bet $20 one game you'll pull that and a blood crypt or worse a dragon skull summit in your opening hand go blegh for 4 turns. Theres nothing you "really" need red for at least 4 turns and you have 13 other red sources. with the exception of burning-tree your first 3-4 turns all need green. Thundermaw needs two red so what I need up doing is if I look at my hand and I'm seeing all green I hold back a burning-tree and play my other options (you have plenty in there) to fix my mana and to save the Aristocrat from being instant'd. So burning-tree into Thundermaw or Aristocrat.
OMG Just had a Frozen mocha brain freeze into idea. I'm gonna sideboard Volcanic strength!!!! Snap! Naya in the FACE!
Sheesh 4 thundermaws. Id hate to be looking at that board state. I'd say toss that Mountain and get a forest. I'll bet $20 one game you'll pull that and a blood crypt or worse a dragon skull summit in your opening hand go blegh for 4 turns. Theres nothing you "really" need red for at least 4 turns and you have 13 other red sources. with the exception of burning-tree your first 3-4 turns all need green. Thundermaw needs two red so what I need up doing is if I look at my hand and I'm seeing all green I hold back a burning-tree and play my other options (you have plenty in there) to fix my mana and to save the Aristocrat from being instant'd. So burning-tree into Thundermaw or Aristocrat.
OMG Just had a Frozen mocha brain freeze into idea. I'm gonna sideboard Volcanic strength!!!! Snap! Naya in the FACE!
The mana isn't that bad. I want that additional mountain so I have 9 Mountains for Flinthoof Boar. When I was at 24 lands I had 10 Mountains altogether but most Jund Aggro lists have 9 so I figure it will be fine. 9 T1 Green sources are fine for 3 Arbor Elf casting. I might be a bit short on Forests I suppose but I'm basically following the same rule the Boar has. Both have 9 of the required basic land type. I generally would say Arbor Elf needs 10 forests min, but I'd also say Boar needs 10 mountains minimum so I think it will be ok. Yes that is sort of trading right back on that explosiveness. But I've also played the list with zero one drops and it manages so I think this will be ok. Remembering that Deathrite can be cast off Black means I actually have 13 ways to cast it T1 if I want. I basically have a rule with the deck already that I mulligan any hand without a green source. I had to play it that way anyway without green 1 drops. At 14 green sources this is fine and I've played that plan in multiple standard formats with that.
Right now the numbers are about as close to even as I can make them with 14 G, 14 R, and 14 B sources. Admittedly the next cut would would be Dragonskull Summit for one more forest. But it starts getting into a certain threshold where double black is no longer playable. Which is fine but there are places I really like having access to double black. On the plus I'm not too worried about all tapped lands I was playing 10 buddy lands at 24 lands, so basically only cut them to get down to 22. While I did make this latest change to increase explosiveness I think I'm comfortable enough sacrificing that to try to ensure better colors.
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Yeah if Naya is a problem I think Strength is reasonable. Basically you make your own Thundermaw Hellkites that way (5/5 unblockable, effective haste since the creature is likely already on the board). It just isn't as great across the board. Mind you I was toying with Madcap Skills against Reanimator so I guess the idea isn't all that different.
Then again maybe the solution is just playing Hellkite.
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The mana isn't that bad. I want that additional mountain so I have 9 Mountains for Flinthoof Boar. When I was at 24 lands I had 10 Mountains altogether but most Jund Aggro lists have 9 so I figure it will be fine. 9 T1 Green sources are fine for 3 Arbor Elf casting. I might be a bit short on Forests I suppose but I'm basically following the same rule the Boar has. Both have 9 of the required basic land type. I generally would say Arbor Elf needs 10 forests min, but I'd also say Boar needs 10 mountains minimum so I think it will be ok. Yes that is sort of trading right back on that explosiveness. But I've also played the list with zero one drops and it manages so I think this will be ok. Remembering that Deathrite can be cast off Black means I actually have 13 ways to cast it T1 if I want. I basically have a rule with the deck already that I mulligan any hand without a green source. I had to play it that way anyway without green 1 drops. At 14 green sources this is fine and I've played that plan in multiple standard formats with that.
Right now the numbers are about as close to even as I can make them with 14 G, 14 R, and 14 B sources. Admittedly the next cut would would be Dragonskull Summit for one more forest. But it starts getting into a certain threshold where double black is no longer playable. Which is fine but there are places I really like having access to double black. On the plus I'm not too worried about all tapped lands I was playing 10 buddy lands at 24 lands, so basically only cut them to get down to 22. While I did make this latest change to increase explosiveness I think I'm comfortable enough sacrificing that to try to ensure better colors.
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Yeah if Naya is a problem I think Strength is reasonable. Basically you make your own Thundermaw Hellkites that way (5/5 unblockable, effective haste since the creature is likely already on the board). It just isn't as great across the board. Mind you I was toying with Madcap Skills against Reanimator so I guess the idea isn't all that different.
Then again maybe the solution is just playing Hellkite.
Your mana base is really pushing it. But I presumed you have done enough testing to settle with it.
Is Gyre Sage any good? You will need to put a counter on it to activate his mana producing ability. It means he won't be ramping you the following turn.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to test it for that two match up before WCQ. Can anyone with experience with Volcanic Strength share their opinion? Thanks in advance.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to test it for that two match up before WCQ. Can anyone with experience with Volcanic Strength share their opinion? Thanks in advance.
Ultimately I didn't go with Madcap skills. I never really found what I was looking for. I tried sideboarding arbor elf and that surprisingly did the most. Which led me to what I posted above after watching Kibler's video and listening him talk about experiment one. Truthfully the problem was any gimmick or hate card could sort of work against reanimator. It just was never good at a fundamental level. Running the hate out could be just as disruptive to our plan if it messed up racing and the Graveyard didnt matter that game. Even stuff like Appetite couldnt stop top decks or only having one and them having two Thragtusks. Its tempo neutral for them since they don't have to waste their mana and just continue on. It isnt like big Jund where they need removal to stay alive til their threats and have a tension with Farseek. Reanimator plays dorks and 3 drops. With any reasonable hand they just play out like normal and can almost ignore what we are doing. And then there are the nut hands that without hate are impossible to race. IF given the choice Id ignore those and try to win all the other games than find a way to beat those or atleast stop them early consistently and risk bricking on more standard games along with wasting too many slots on the matchup.
Anyway went 3-1 tonight. Beat BW Aristocrat Tokens, Esper Control, and big Jund. Lost to GR Aggro list that won. Mana was fine. I sort of punted the GR matchup. Boarded wrong under estimating his pure aggressive output and should have focused on removal more. Biggest mistake was trading with the front half of a Strangleroot Geist triggering 2 experiment one growths when I mistakenly thought I had the 3rd red to overload Mortars. In the end my 4/5 Gyre Sage and back to back Hellkites couldnt save me. I had him majorly outgunned but I had taken the wrong line especially when I never drew the 3rd red and he had Ghor Clan for my first Thundermaw. Mind you the mistake was the earlier block. Mind you I lost game one fair and square. I was ahead but he got down Silverheart and I didnt see my 5 or a 2nd Falkenrath. He had double wolf run to trample over on his 6th land.
I think after playing the list I didnt need the Deathrites main as much. Arbor Elf made a signifigant speed difference that reduced its usefulness. I want to see some other low drop options are applicable main. I want to see if there is an alternative to my double black approach. I have no problem with it but it doesnt play as well with explosive elements and I'm at a point I almost want to try main decking Nighthawk as a maindeck creature that is a removal spell. So Im exploring similar other options.
EDIT: The other options weren't as good. I even made a list to support Reckoner with 18 RW sources using Temple Gardens and all red Buddy lands. I discovered some fundamental things in the process mind you. Like Wolfir Avenger beats Reckoner head to head.. I didn't realize that before largely forgot about the card. Strangleroot Geist in that flex spot in my list was almost good enough but it was hedging on the aggro game a bit more than I like.. I very much dislike attacking into a Thragtusk with all my little guys to have them picked off just to have in case the opponent bricks I can do exactsies next turn. Having more options than that is worth it. Nighthawk performed admirably outside of Reanimator even in this Searing Spear field simply because the opponent has too many targets to choose from. I definitely want to play more of them and pray that Gruul Charm isn't a thing. Although with some help it definitely does a lot of work. It's a like an Olivia that can come down a turn earlier and possibly block for some value. If you untap then it's probably one of the best fighers with Domri, makes Ghor Clan all too sweet, and in my aggro matchups pairs with Silverheart like a Baneslayer Angel. Domri hits it which means you can play some games with it in a removal like capacity against low removal aggressive to midrange decks.
I went back and tested the 24 land version some more and I don't think the consistency issue is that big. You seem just as likely to get stuck on 2 lands or flood out. Mind you sometimes it did feel like the dork version got stuck on 2 lands longer if that happened. I think the trade off is worth it to sandwich in some 1 drops while keeping the threat density as high.
Anyway if I were to play the deck again today it would look like this:
Cut one Rakdos' Return. I think the miser copy is fine. I also removed Mortars from the main board. Not being able to Overload it and trying to play to that cost 3 games last night. Dreadbore is a bit harder to cast but it is better late game removal in that it has a big effect when you want it. In so I cut one of the Victim of Nights in the board (partial redundancy on the hit all removal) for a Tormod's Crypt. Which I think might be my favorite pure graveyard hate. There really is a right time to clear the board against most of these decks and because it's free you can sandbag as long as you want and not feel you have to play with mana up. Ground Seal is cute and all but it didn't cover it all (like Harvest Pyre or undying) and whenever I sided into multiples I always seemed to draw both when I was looking for action. It's bad enough having to play cards like Slaughter Games in some matchups as I never want to see the 2nd. Although I do like the flexibility making a control deck become mostly air.
Reanimator plan right now I think is:
-3 Domri
-2 Burning-Tree Emmissary
-1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Bonfire
+1 Victim of Night
+1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Wolfir Silverheart
Slaughter games is too slow and I basically want to get big faster. It's possible the Silverheart isn't right but anyway to get more damage in. Burning Tree starts looking bad as it gets chump blocked.
I've been testing and tuning for WCQ. Against JunkRites, Lingering Souls has been giving me a lot of problem.
Golgari charm. Works wonders. -1-1 to tokens not to mention its main role is vs supreme verdict, Boros reckoner and bonfire of the damned. Destroying Assemble the legiona and other enchantments are just a bonus.
Skullcrack is a staple for me, now that there's someone who made a success using Turbofog Deck it might get some fans and create the deck as well so Skullcrack still is useful.
I like your Ultimate price main deck. Remove the 1 searing spear in the sb and put a single Ground seal. It works vs any Snapcaster Mage deck and renimator plus its card advantage. You dont need 4 spears imho.
Going off of what I was saying in my last post I think I want to try this. It's a bit like the greedy stuff I was talking about in the last thread but I think in this format it's still reasonable. I was having a ton of trouble with Flash before but Deathrite Shaman really did numbers there I didn't expect. It's pretty much good enough to main deck. I was running 3 but there were too many times it didn't do anything early. It was while playing it I realized how much I really wanted an arbor elf for acceleration. I was trying all these low curve Experiment One things but they could get just stumped. The risk of a greedy list is not curving out mind you when someone kills your acceleration. Stilll the pay off makes the reanimator matchup much better. I was worried Gyre Sage would be a bit out of place with Arbor Elf hands but often enough.. you can play Gyre Sage on T3. You go Arbor Elf.. T2.. Domri or Dreg Mangler. T3 Sage + Boar etc.. T4 Hellkite.. it means that Sage is more of a beater than anything but that's ok since it rounds out when you don't have Arbor Elf hands.
The final bit was watching Kibler play a Green-Red deck with 22 lands and 6 5 drops sometimes siding into 7-8 5 drops on SCG today. This is a greedy format. I understand this leads to some more mulligans but I'm used to that style of deck. I'm going to give this list a try:
Kibler is such a midrange aggro Gyre sage fan even his Naya decks are so full of it. If you have the necessary acceleration it wouldnt hurt much. Try it and tell us how it goes.
Is Gyre Sage any good? You will need to put a counter on it to activate his mana producing ability. It means he won't be ramping you the following turn.
Actually the mana producing ability is just a great bonus...1/2 evolve for a 2cmc creature is great, many people can't see it from the start but once youre playing it you'll see its power. Once it arrives to 4/5 its already a threat. Overall its a great card for 1G.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to test it for that two match up before WCQ. Can anyone with experience with Volcanic Strength share their opinion? Thanks in advance.
Before Im using volcanic strength vs red based aggro but sometimes it failed to do its job to win the race. So I decided to stop using it and just put in removals instead.. Where this card really showed its potential is the aristocrats. A boar/flunkie with Volcanic strength is almost unstoppable in this matchup. The removal set of usual aristocrat decks are is too low for it to be drawn, not to mention it will hurt them if they used Orzhov Charm. Volcanic strength is good against UWR flash sometimes since that deck is pretty slow in spending/abusing control elements unlike Esper. You may have chances that there's no answer..
Anyway best time to use VolcanicS is when opponent is tapped out, one mana left, or forcing them to bring out their removals to a creature thats likely to die anyway like BTE.;)
Thanks Hunter44. I wish I see your post earlier. I tested Rancor today and I feel exactly the same way as you. \
I have replaced my Domri Rade with Triumph of Ferocity. And I am glad I made that change. It is so much better in the control MU.
I don't really like Domri Rade, against Naya Midrange, they usually have them down a turn earlier than us. Against Jund Midrange, they have tons of answer for it. And against faster aggro deck, it is a 3cc removal spell.
How do you guys feel about Rise from the Grave as SB tech against Reanimator? I read it somewhere on SCG and thought it was an interesting idea.
Taking from their resource pool doesn't seem terrible. Although then again Grisly Salvage is an instant so sometimes they won't give you the chance. I guess the question is if that's a better move than say Zealous Conscripts. I actually found testing that Thundermaw Hellkite > Zealous Conscripts. I mean maybe not if the board is all clear from an Angel of Serenity. But instead of waiting for them to have a Thragtusk to steal or whatever you are getting in there for 5.
This card doesn't have the tempo advantage of other answers in that if they have 2 fatties in their graveyard you each get one. You can't basically make them go for it and waste a turn. Or stare looking at Deathrite and know they can't go for it til they deal. But I suppose you getting to take the better one is significantly better. And you get to keep it permanently. Against us I don't know if they would be running the removal to deal with their own creatures. I've been testing against lists that play Orzhov charm over Decay main. If they have you on Jund Aggro they aren't going to have Oblivion Rings or Selesnya Charms. Actually in the mirror I imagine they try to grind out with Thrags and Angels and don't even care about removal much, the difference here is our Clock makes it significant.. Mind you Getting an Angel of Serenity might not be doing very much for us other than a 5/6 flier. But better than them having it. However Behemoth would wreck them. That's where my 5 mana Overrun went in Standard. Overrun is exactly the card we'd want right now.
EDIT: Basically I was trying to think of how it would be good. Generally at 5 mana it's a hard sell because this deck usually doesn't play a lot of 5's even postboard. And this 5 is only good in one matchup. This is why I was comparing it to Zealous Conscripts since that's the same sort gotcha type of card that isn't necessarily good all the time. My hunch is perhaps you put a miser in the board, but it's not strong enough to justify the go bigger plan if you aren't already going that way it takes slots of your other go big options most likely. Unless go big is your main deck plan. But in that case you are probably already play Thundermaw Hellkite which is universally better. The difficulty with that is generally if you are big main you are likely about a turn behind Reanimator. So adding another 5 doesn't really matter. You are still coming to the party a little bit on the late side sometimes. It's probably better to run some amount of cheap disruption so that you can push them back a turn or so, and generally not slow yourself down. If the plan is to use this with cheap disruption it's a lot of slots for one matchup. It's also a lot more awkward against a game that goes like this:
T1: Dork
T2: Centaur Healer
T3: Pass (you Speared his Healer to get your Experiment and Boar through), Flash Resto on your turn, Ghor Clan through
T4: Thragtusk
T5: Thragtusk
T6: Main Phase Salvage, Unburial Rites Angel of Serenity
Reallistically you want a Deathrite or other cheap Graveyard hate on board by about here so T6 never happens. Secondly rather than Rise from the Grave which might have netted you a Thragtusk, you probably would have preferred a Hellkite to back your Aristocrat. The problem with Thragtusk here is you guys attrition out and he eventually draws Angel of Serenity. Or maybe bins it after you pull the trigger on Rise. With Aristocrat+Thundermaw you are doing 9 damage a turn so if he's playing fair with a multiple Thragtusk draw if you keep him off the graveyard you are still hitting by more than he can gain each turn. And if he's lucky enough to have double Thragtusk, you're lucky enough to have double Hellkite depending on numbers.
I run all of them but I finally broke down today and took deathrite shaman out of my deck. He really hasn't been doing much for me lately. Maybe its because I don't play enough control and reanimator decks. I'm leaving in Strangeroot geist, flint, burn, dreg because they just work really well together even though you think they wouldn't. Just so many options for boosting a Experiment one into indestructible.
It was 84 people, top 8, 1st place was a Black Lotus.
Round 1 vs. Junk Reanimator 2-0
Very straightforward match. I beat him both games by turn 6. Killed any mana dorks, and he had mana issues both games. Not great draws for me, but consistent.
Round 2 vs. Naya Blitz 1-2
Each game was decided by who had the worse mana. Game 3, I have 2 Stomping Ground, take him to 1 life by turn 6. Cards in hand: 2 Falkenrath Aristocrat, 1 Dreadbore, 1 Dreg Mangler. If I hit a single land with Black, I win. 10 turns, not a single land. He eventually gets enough of a board to win.
Round 3 vs. Aristocrats 0-2
I kept a bad hand game 1, not enough juice, he established his board. Game 2, I never see red mana. 5 lands, no red. From here on out I will aggressively mulligan.
Round 4 vs. RG Aggro 2-0
Despite good starts for him, I just curve out really well. I kept RGB mana each game.
Round 5 vs. RG Aggro 0-2
Game 1, I have him dead on board, but in order to setup my board I had taken 6 damage from shock lands. I am at 3, he top decks Searing Spear. Game 2, he has all red mana and nothing on the board but Boros Reckoner. I did get greedy and wasted removal too early. I had enough blockers to force him to block against me. However, he top decks Burning-Tree Emissary, allowing him to play the only blocker that would matter, Ghor-Clan Rampager. Instead of dead next turn as I run over Reckoner with blood rush on Flinthoof Boar, he then top decks Hellrider for game.
Round 6 vs. Naya Aggro 2-0
See rounds 1 and 4.
Round 7 vs. Boros Aggro 2-0
See rounds 1, 4, 6.
The only round I feel like I genuinely deserved to lose because of bad keeps/misplays was #3 vs Aristocrats, though game 2 of Round 5 I wasn't judicious with my removal. Against more aggressive decks, I realize we have to save our removal for their serious creatures, and instead block their little guys, since ours get larger, faster.
Except for the mana hiccups, which probably could have been avoided if I had mulliganed correctly, the deck was great. A good learning experience.
I never got to use Appetite for Brains, Olivia Voldaren or Domri Rade, but I seemingly played aggro pretty much all day. I'm not sure I like Olivia that much when I did bring her in. Because of all of the aggro, Wolfir Silverheart would have been better. Deathrite Shaman did very little, and was sided out every game except in the first round.
I also did nothing with Thundermaw Hellkite, but then again, I didn't face much mid-range. The games I lost, I could not have cast it anyway.
My removal suite was pretty good. I was very happy with 2 UP, 1 AD, and 2 Spear.
All three people I lost to placed higher than I did in the 4-3, except one guy who went 5-2.
I think I might change-up the side-board to improve my aggro match, but I am not sure what. Replace Olivia Voldaren with Wolfir Silverheart or Rakdos Cackler? Buffer the high-end or the low end? I am thinking against faster aggro decks, we want removal and things that pair and make walls and inevitability. I am also switching Kessig to side and Dragonskull Summit to main. 23 lands was generally awesome.
I think a lot of what you faced probably had to do with bracket you were in. Once you were x-2 you basically hit all the aggro decks that likely lost to the midrange decks early. That's the hardest playing those decks. Hitting Blitz round 1 or 2, since after that there will likely only be a few of those in the top brackets. I always found when I played very metagamed decks that if I won the first 2 rounds I was pretty set for the day. If I didn't well who knows. I played a PTQ and Regional Qualifiers during Cawblade and only saw it three times in 14 rounds(combined). I went 4-3 at both and beat Cawblade every time I saw it but early losses kept me out of that bracket. Similarly I have played tournaments where I won the first couple rounds and faced the popular deck several times which was very good for me.
Your record against Aggro was reasonable considering it isn't what we aim for. It's too bad about the 2nd round. Because a win there probably would have set you nice for the rest of the day. And realistically in 7 round tournament you have atleast one round you lose(or end up in a tough position) due to just completely bricking (or mulliganing to almost oblivion). Later on it might not have hurt as much.
But outside of that looking good. I think 5 removal spells is about the sweet spot main. It seems your removal selection wasn't too taxed by Boros Reckoner, which is why I would be concerned with that combination. Deathrite definitely feels kind of weak when you don't need it but it's often a very nice hedge against Reanimator (or even UWR). I've won aggro matchups with it but it required weird lines that probably my main deck Domri supports more (and the more 5 drops). I'm not sure it's safe to cut it yet just kind of sucks when it isn't good. I'm interested to see how you will adjust your board after this tournament. I mean on one side you have to put it down to luck that you ended up in the aggro bracket., but on the other hand it definitely changes the weight of the utility of some options when something like that can happen.
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I never got to use Appetite for Brains, Olivia Voldaren or Domri Rade, but I seemingly played aggro pretty much all day. I'm not sure I like Olivia that much when I did bring her in. Because of all of the aggro, Wolfir Silverheart would have been better. Deathrite Shaman did very little, and was sided out every game except in the first round
Had a similar experience with B/W Aristocrat. Once they have that board established and can sac in response to anything you do. It's everytime you swing regardless of what happens they gain life and you lose life. Need lots of removal and mull aggressively until you see it. Naya Blitz needs Golgari Charm preferably to get taken offline. I dorked around with Volcanic strength but Naya swings as much as you do so its not like they care.
Thanks Hunter44. I wish I see your post earlier. I tested Rancor today and I feel exactly the same way as you. \
I have replaced my Domri Rade with Triumph of Ferocity. And I am glad I made that change. It is so much better in the control MU.
I don't really like Domri Rade, against Naya Midrange, they usually have them down a turn earlier than us. Against Jund Midrange, they have tons of answer for it. And against faster aggro deck, it is a 3cc removal spell.
I use Domri Rade vs Esper Control (Draw tech) and Red-based aggro and blitz, Aside from the extra removal, its saves some of my life points as most of the players I've had games with tend to kill Domri Asap by combat if they didnt have searing spear.
How do you guys feel about Rise from the Grave as SB tech against Reanimator? I read it somewhere on SCG and thought it was an interesting idea.
Its good vs reanimator yeah, but we are kind of looking for a sideboard material that works well with some decks otherwise, for example, deathrite shaman is not only good vs reanimator, but with UWR Flash as well.
It was 84 people, top 8, 1st place was a Black Lotus.
Round 1 vs. Junk Reanimator 2-0
Very straightforward match. I beat him both games by turn 6. Killed any mana dorks, and he had mana issues both games. Not great draws for me, but consistent.
Round 2 vs. Naya Blitz 1-2
Each game was decided by who had the worse mana. Game 3, I have 2 Stomping Ground, take him to 1 life by turn 6. Cards in hand: 2 Falkenrath Aristocrat, 1 Dreadbore, 1 Dreg Mangler. If I hit a single land with Black, I win. 10 turns, not a single land. He eventually gets enough of a board to win.
Round 3 vs. Aristocrats 0-2
I kept a bad hand game 1, not enough juice, he established his board. Game 2, I never see red mana. 5 lands, no red. From here on out I will aggressively mulligan.
Round 4 vs. RG Aggro 2-0
Despite good starts for him, I just curve out really well. I kept RGB mana each game.
Round 5 vs. RG Aggro 0-2
Game 1, I have him dead on board, but in order to setup my board I had taken 6 damage from shock lands. I am at 3, he top decks Searing Spear. Game 2, he has all red mana and nothing on the board but Boros Reckoner. I did get greedy and wasted removal too early. I had enough blockers to force him to block against me. However, he top decks Burning-Tree Emissary, allowing him to play the only blocker that would matter, Ghor-Clan Rampager. Instead of dead next turn as I run over Reckoner with blood rush on Flinthoof Boar, he then top decks Hellrider for game.
Round 6 vs. Naya Aggro 2-0
See rounds 1 and 4.
Round 7 vs. Boros Aggro 2-0
See rounds 1, 4, 6.
The only round I feel like I genuinely deserved to lose because of bad keeps/misplays was #3 vs Aristocrats, though game 2 of Round 5 I wasn't judicious with my removal. Against more aggressive decks, I realize we have to save our removal for their serious creatures, and instead block their little guys, since ours get larger, faster.
Except for the mana hiccups, which probably could have been avoided if I had mulliganed correctly, the deck was great. A good learning experience.
I never got to use Appetite for Brains, Olivia Voldaren or Domri Rade, but I seemingly played aggro pretty much all day. I'm not sure I like Olivia that much when I did bring her in. Because of all of the aggro, Wolfir Silverheart would have been better. Deathrite Shaman did very little, and was sided out every game except in the first round.
I also did nothing with Thundermaw Hellkite, but then again, I didn't face much mid-range. The games I lost, I could not have cast it anyway.
My removal suite was pretty good. I was very happy with 2 UP, 1 AD, and 2 Spear.
All three people I lost to placed higher than I did in the 4-3, except one guy who went 5-2.
I think I might change-up the side-board to improve my aggro match, but I am not sure what. Replace Olivia Voldaren with Wolfir Silverheart or Rakdos Cackler? Buffer the high-end or the low end? I am thinking against faster aggro decks, we want removal and things that pair and make walls and inevitability. I am also switching Kessig to side and Dragonskull Summit to main. 23 lands was generally awesome.
Good wins pal. Your list is just right except that you may want to cut off hellrider and go low curve. Too bad for the draws you had in your losses.. that kind of luck is worse in MTGO..
Had a similar experience with B/W Aristocrat. Once they have that board established and can sac in response to anything you do. It's everytime you swing regardless of what happens they gain life and you lose life. Need lots of removal and mull aggressively until you see it. Naya Blitz needs Golgari Charm preferably to get taken offline. I dorked around with Volcanic strength but Naya swings as much as you do so its not like they care.
I posted earlier about Volcanic strength in aristocrats.. You'll see potential.. Vs Aggro you can just side in more removal. I also quite using Volanic strength vs aggro and instead Im putting it in against aristocrats.
I've been testing and tuning for WCQ. Against JunkRites, Lingering Souls has been giving me a lot of problem. It does very well stopping our early aggression, 6 points of damage with just half a card. Need not to say, it also blocks our aristocrats like a boss. The only cards we have against it are Ghor-Clan Rampager and Thundermaw Hellkite.
Other problematic cards are Restoration Angel , Loxodon Smiter and Centaur Healer.
I been thinking of having one Skullcrack in the Sideboard, what do you reckon?
Maybe I should try Electrickery as an one of in the SB. It is a powerful card against JunkRites.
I don't like neither Dreadbore nor Mizzium Mortars against Restoration Angel. You want to keep pressuring your opponent. Baiting that angel out and kill it the following turn is tempo loss. Ghor-Clan Rampager is great, but some of the decks that play angel also has Azorius Charm and I often find myself siding the rampagers out.
For now, my removal packages are 2 Abrupt Decay 2 Searing Spear 1 Tragic Slip 2 Ultimate Price and 2 Brimstone Volley
Ultimate Price and Brimstone Volley are superior to Dreadbore and Mizzium Mortars. I suggests you guys try them out specially Brimstone Volley
Not saying I would not change it up. I would consider
+2 Land
+2 Thundermaw Hellkite
-3 Rakdos Cackler
-1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
I'm tinkering with sideboard packages and have the following in mind:
Core
Options:
or
or
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rootbound Craig
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures 31
4 Experiment One
3 Rakdos Cackler
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Mogg Flunkies
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-clam Rampager
2 Hellrider
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Searing Spear
2 Ultimate Price
1 Tragic Slip
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dreadbore
2 Domri Rade
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Appetite for Brains
Here is what I was thinking of moving to...
Big Experiment Jund
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rootbound Craig
2 Woodland Cemetery
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures 29
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Mogg Flunkies
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-clam Rampager
2 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Searing Spear
2 Ultimate Price
1 Tragic Slip
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Golgaria Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
2 Domri Rade
1 Searing Spear
2 Vampire Nighthawk
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tonight I started thinking about swapping Wasteland viper for Deathrite shamans but Deathrite tend to just do work. Pinging for 2 or life gain really lets me play a long game if I need to. I refuse to let them go. I see people loading in removal in this deck and I just cant do it. This is a deck for turning cards not playing poker. You have to play this deck and wear shades indoors like you don't give a ****
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dreg Mangler
4x Experiment One
4x Falkenrath Aristocrat
4x Flinthoof Boar
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Strangleroot Geist
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
2x hellrider
3x Blood Crypt
3x Forest
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
4x Woodland Cemetery
Sorcery (2)
2x mizzium mortars
Planeswalker (2)
2x Domri Rade
1x slaughter games
2x Olivia Valdaren
2x Dreadbore
3x Golgari Charm
2x abrupt decay
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Vampire Nighthawk
I'm intrigued by your build. Aside from the lack of removal main, and the fact that I would still run Mogg Flunkies over Strangleroot Geist, the very creature heavy build seems to have a lot of gas.
How are you feeling about the lack of Searing Spear?
How well are you hitting land drops to get to 5 mana with only 22 lands?
I would probably go something like this, since I want instant speed removal main, a little more Red for Hellrider and Thundermaw, Mogg Flunkies instead of Strangleroot Geist, and if I go two Thundermaw + Vampire Nighthawk, extra land to make my R/B drops and Kessig to really take advantage of Nighthawk's lifegain.
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Experiment One
4x Falkenrath Aristocrat
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Mogg Flunkies
3x Dreg Mangler
2x Hellrider
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
4x Blood Crypt
2x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
3x Woodland Cemetery
Sorcery (4)
2x Searing Spear
2x Ultimate Price
Planeswalker (2)
2x Domri Rade
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
1x Searing Spear
2x Dreadbore
2x Golgari Charm
2x abrupt decay
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Vampire Nighthawk
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Seeing 5 mana is 50/50 I need 4 mana to ultimate into Aristo or hellrider. I probably would get lucky to see 5 mana turn 6 or 7 but Thundermaw is just a lottery ticket I hope to see turn 7 - 10. Truthfully my deck is built around my meta. Its possible I'd get my head kicked in at a tournament. I think you have to ask yourself what you're up against. Whats Ultimate Price going to do for you? Another problem is Burning-tree gives R/G so that ultimate price isn't gonna do you much good in the early game without slowing you down. The reason I don't play Searing Spear though I think it's a great card is it just didn't do the work I need it too. I think mainboard cards need to be pure synergy. I like the viper because in all likelyhood a bant deck will have a smiter out on turn two or three. It would be nice to be swinging with an EO, burning tree and flinthoof on turn three. Get blocked by a smiter and whack it with a wasteland viper. You'll never see me play mogg flunkies because I'm certain people will play around them. Its a personal local meta choice. I saw some other cool options though. Lightning mauler, crimson muckraker, chainwalker, Wandering Wolf. I play the strangeroot for now because it has haste, undying and plays to my primary colors. I'm not depedent on burning tree for a badass turn 2 play. I pulled kessig out of my sideboard. My mana is very fragile I want all 3 colors on turn 3. I also avoid 1 of's despite it being all the rage with Pros because the percentage of seeing 1 card in a deck is too low for me. Siding in one card "might" help, but I need a sideboard that "will" make a difference.
The final bit was watching Kibler play a Green-Red deck with 22 lands and 6 5 drops sometimes siding into 7-8 5 drops on SCG today. This is a greedy format. I understand this leads to some more mulligans but I'm used to that style of deck. I'm going to give this list a try:
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Woodland Cemetary
2 Rootbound Crag
Creatures(30):
3 Arbor Elf
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Dreg Mangler
3 Ghor Clan Rampager
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Domri Rade
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Victim of Night
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Rakdos' Return
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Slaughter Games
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Wolfir Silverheart
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Sheesh 4 thundermaws. Id hate to be looking at that board state. I'd say toss that Mountain and get a forest. I'll bet $20 one game you'll pull that and a blood crypt or worse a dragon skull summit in your opening hand go blegh for 4 turns. Theres nothing you "really" need red for at least 4 turns and you have 13 other red sources. with the exception of burning-tree your first 3-4 turns all need green. Thundermaw needs two red so what I need up doing is if I look at my hand and I'm seeing all green I hold back a burning-tree and play my other options (you have plenty in there) to fix my mana and to save the Aristocrat from being instant'd. So burning-tree into Thundermaw or Aristocrat.
OMG Just had a Frozen mocha brain freeze into idea. I'm gonna sideboard Volcanic strength!!!! Snap! Naya in the FACE!
The mana isn't that bad. I want that additional mountain so I have 9 Mountains for Flinthoof Boar. When I was at 24 lands I had 10 Mountains altogether but most Jund Aggro lists have 9 so I figure it will be fine. 9 T1 Green sources are fine for 3 Arbor Elf casting. I might be a bit short on Forests I suppose but I'm basically following the same rule the Boar has. Both have 9 of the required basic land type. I generally would say Arbor Elf needs 10 forests min, but I'd also say Boar needs 10 mountains minimum so I think it will be ok. Yes that is sort of trading right back on that explosiveness. But I've also played the list with zero one drops and it manages so I think this will be ok. Remembering that Deathrite can be cast off Black means I actually have 13 ways to cast it T1 if I want. I basically have a rule with the deck already that I mulligan any hand without a green source. I had to play it that way anyway without green 1 drops. At 14 green sources this is fine and I've played that plan in multiple standard formats with that.
Right now the numbers are about as close to even as I can make them with 14 G, 14 R, and 14 B sources. Admittedly the next cut would would be Dragonskull Summit for one more forest. But it starts getting into a certain threshold where double black is no longer playable. Which is fine but there are places I really like having access to double black. On the plus I'm not too worried about all tapped lands I was playing 10 buddy lands at 24 lands, so basically only cut them to get down to 22. While I did make this latest change to increase explosiveness I think I'm comfortable enough sacrificing that to try to ensure better colors.
------------------------
Yeah if Naya is a problem I think Strength is reasonable. Basically you make your own Thundermaw Hellkites that way (5/5 unblockable, effective haste since the creature is likely already on the board). It just isn't as great across the board. Mind you I was toying with Madcap Skills against Reanimator so I guess the idea isn't all that different.
Then again maybe the solution is just playing Hellkite.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Your mana base is really pushing it. But I presumed you have done enough testing to settle with it.
Is Gyre Sage any good? You will need to put a counter on it to activate his mana producing ability. It means he won't be ramping you the following turn.
Against Reanimator, they have Abrupt Decay which makes Madcap Skills a dangerous move.
On the other hand, Volcanic Strength could work against Naya Blitz if you play it when they don't have mana up for Searing Spear.
It could work against Naya Midrange too. If I remember correctly, the only removal they play are Mizzium Mortars and Bonfire of the Damned.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to test it for that two match up before WCQ. Can anyone with experience with Volcanic Strength share their opinion? Thanks in advance.
Never mind. I've totally forgotten about Selesnya Charm
Anyway went 3-1 tonight. Beat BW Aristocrat Tokens, Esper Control, and big Jund. Lost to GR Aggro list that won. Mana was fine. I sort of punted the GR matchup. Boarded wrong under estimating his pure aggressive output and should have focused on removal more. Biggest mistake was trading with the front half of a Strangleroot Geist triggering 2 experiment one growths when I mistakenly thought I had the 3rd red to overload Mortars. In the end my 4/5 Gyre Sage and back to back Hellkites couldnt save me. I had him majorly outgunned but I had taken the wrong line especially when I never drew the 3rd red and he had Ghor Clan for my first Thundermaw. Mind you the mistake was the earlier block. Mind you I lost game one fair and square. I was ahead but he got down Silverheart and I didnt see my 5 or a 2nd Falkenrath. He had double wolf run to trample over on his 6th land.
I think after playing the list I didnt need the Deathrites main as much. Arbor Elf made a signifigant speed difference that reduced its usefulness. I want to see some other low drop options are applicable main. I want to see if there is an alternative to my double black approach. I have no problem with it but it doesnt play as well with explosive elements and I'm at a point I almost want to try main decking Nighthawk as a maindeck creature that is a removal spell. So Im exploring similar other options.
EDIT: The other options weren't as good. I even made a list to support Reckoner with 18 RW sources using Temple Gardens and all red Buddy lands. I discovered some fundamental things in the process mind you. Like Wolfir Avenger beats Reckoner head to head.. I didn't realize that before largely forgot about the card. Strangleroot Geist in that flex spot in my list was almost good enough but it was hedging on the aggro game a bit more than I like.. I very much dislike attacking into a Thragtusk with all my little guys to have them picked off just to have in case the opponent bricks I can do exactsies next turn. Having more options than that is worth it. Nighthawk performed admirably outside of Reanimator even in this Searing Spear field simply because the opponent has too many targets to choose from. I definitely want to play more of them and pray that Gruul Charm isn't a thing. Although with some help it definitely does a lot of work. It's a like an Olivia that can come down a turn earlier and possibly block for some value. If you untap then it's probably one of the best fighers with Domri, makes Ghor Clan all too sweet, and in my aggro matchups pairs with Silverheart like a Baneslayer Angel. Domri hits it which means you can play some games with it in a removal like capacity against low removal aggressive to midrange decks.
I went back and tested the 24 land version some more and I don't think the consistency issue is that big. You seem just as likely to get stuck on 2 lands or flood out. Mind you sometimes it did feel like the dork version got stuck on 2 lands longer if that happened. I think the trade off is worth it to sandwich in some 1 drops while keeping the threat density as high.
Anyway if I were to play the deck again today it would look like this:
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Woodland Cemetary
2 Rootbound Crag
Creatures(30):
3 Arbor Elf
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Dreg Mangler
3 Ghor Clan Rampager
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dreadbore
3 Domri Rade
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Victim of Night
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Rakdos' Return
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Slaughter Games
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Wolfir Silverheart
Cut one Rakdos' Return. I think the miser copy is fine. I also removed Mortars from the main board. Not being able to Overload it and trying to play to that cost 3 games last night. Dreadbore is a bit harder to cast but it is better late game removal in that it has a big effect when you want it. In so I cut one of the Victim of Nights in the board (partial redundancy on the hit all removal) for a Tormod's Crypt. Which I think might be my favorite pure graveyard hate. There really is a right time to clear the board against most of these decks and because it's free you can sandbag as long as you want and not feel you have to play with mana up. Ground Seal is cute and all but it didn't cover it all (like Harvest Pyre or undying) and whenever I sided into multiples I always seemed to draw both when I was looking for action. It's bad enough having to play cards like Slaughter Games in some matchups as I never want to see the 2nd. Although I do like the flexibility making a control deck become mostly air.
Reanimator plan right now I think is:
-3 Domri
-2 Burning-Tree Emmissary
-1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Bonfire
+1 Victim of Night
+1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Wolfir Silverheart
Slaughter games is too slow and I basically want to get big faster. It's possible the Silverheart isn't right but anyway to get more damage in. Burning Tree starts looking bad as it gets chump blocked.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Golgari charm. Works wonders. -1-1 to tokens not to mention its main role is vs supreme verdict, Boros reckoner and bonfire of the damned. Destroying Assemble the legiona and other enchantments are just a bonus.
Skullcrack is a staple for me, now that there's someone who made a success using Turbofog Deck it might get some fans and create the deck as well so Skullcrack still is useful.
I like your Ultimate price main deck. Remove the 1 searing spear in the sb and put a single Ground seal. It works vs any Snapcaster Mage deck and renimator plus its card advantage. You dont need 4 spears imho.
Tried it, it works, but not much of a game changer. The spells slot is already tight and removals are much better options.
Kibler is such a midrange aggro Gyre sage fan even his Naya decks are so full of it. If you have the necessary acceleration it wouldnt hurt much. Try it and tell us how it goes.
Actually the mana producing ability is just a great bonus...1/2 evolve for a 2cmc creature is great, many people can't see it from the start but once youre playing it you'll see its power. Once it arrives to 4/5 its already a threat. Overall its a great card for 1G.
Before Im using volcanic strength vs red based aggro but sometimes it failed to do its job to win the race. So I decided to stop using it and just put in removals instead.. Where this card really showed its potential is the aristocrats. A boar/flunkie with Volcanic strength is almost unstoppable in this matchup. The removal set of usual aristocrat decks are is too low for it to be drawn, not to mention it will hurt them if they used Orzhov Charm. Volcanic strength is good against UWR flash sometimes since that deck is pretty slow in spending/abusing control elements unlike Esper. You may have chances that there's no answer..
Anyway best time to use VolcanicS is when opponent is tapped out, one mana left, or forcing them to bring out their removals to a creature thats likely to die anyway like BTE.;)
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
I have replaced my Domri Rade with Triumph of Ferocity. And I am glad I made that change. It is so much better in the control MU.
I don't really like Domri Rade, against Naya Midrange, they usually have them down a turn earlier than us. Against Jund Midrange, they have tons of answer for it. And against faster aggro deck, it is a 3cc removal spell.
Taking from their resource pool doesn't seem terrible. Although then again Grisly Salvage is an instant so sometimes they won't give you the chance. I guess the question is if that's a better move than say Zealous Conscripts. I actually found testing that Thundermaw Hellkite > Zealous Conscripts. I mean maybe not if the board is all clear from an Angel of Serenity. But instead of waiting for them to have a Thragtusk to steal or whatever you are getting in there for 5.
This card doesn't have the tempo advantage of other answers in that if they have 2 fatties in their graveyard you each get one. You can't basically make them go for it and waste a turn. Or stare looking at Deathrite and know they can't go for it til they deal. But I suppose you getting to take the better one is significantly better. And you get to keep it permanently. Against us I don't know if they would be running the removal to deal with their own creatures. I've been testing against lists that play Orzhov charm over Decay main. If they have you on Jund Aggro they aren't going to have Oblivion Rings or Selesnya Charms. Actually in the mirror I imagine they try to grind out with Thrags and Angels and don't even care about removal much, the difference here is our Clock makes it significant.. Mind you Getting an Angel of Serenity might not be doing very much for us other than a 5/6 flier. But better than them having it. However Behemoth would wreck them. That's where my 5 mana Overrun went in Standard. Overrun is exactly the card we'd want right now.
EDIT: Basically I was trying to think of how it would be good. Generally at 5 mana it's a hard sell because this deck usually doesn't play a lot of 5's even postboard. And this 5 is only good in one matchup. This is why I was comparing it to Zealous Conscripts since that's the same sort gotcha type of card that isn't necessarily good all the time. My hunch is perhaps you put a miser in the board, but it's not strong enough to justify the go bigger plan if you aren't already going that way it takes slots of your other go big options most likely. Unless go big is your main deck plan. But in that case you are probably already play Thundermaw Hellkite which is universally better. The difficulty with that is generally if you are big main you are likely about a turn behind Reanimator. So adding another 5 doesn't really matter. You are still coming to the party a little bit on the late side sometimes. It's probably better to run some amount of cheap disruption so that you can push them back a turn or so, and generally not slow yourself down. If the plan is to use this with cheap disruption it's a lot of slots for one matchup. It's also a lot more awkward against a game that goes like this:
T1: Dork
T2: Centaur Healer
T3: Pass (you Speared his Healer to get your Experiment and Boar through), Flash Resto on your turn, Ghor Clan through
T4: Thragtusk
T5: Thragtusk
T6: Main Phase Salvage, Unburial Rites Angel of Serenity
Reallistically you want a Deathrite or other cheap Graveyard hate on board by about here so T6 never happens. Secondly rather than Rise from the Grave which might have netted you a Thragtusk, you probably would have preferred a Hellkite to back your Aristocrat. The problem with Thragtusk here is you guys attrition out and he eventually draws Angel of Serenity. Or maybe bins it after you pull the trigger on Rise. With Aristocrat+Thundermaw you are doing 9 damage a turn so if he's playing fair with a multiple Thragtusk draw if you keep him off the graveyard you are still hitting by more than he can gain each turn. And if he's lucky enough to have double Thragtusk, you're lucky enough to have double Hellkite depending on numbers.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
It was 84 people, top 8, 1st place was a Black Lotus.
Round 1 vs. Junk Reanimator 2-0
Very straightforward match. I beat him both games by turn 6. Killed any mana dorks, and he had mana issues both games. Not great draws for me, but consistent.
Round 2 vs. Naya Blitz 1-2
Each game was decided by who had the worse mana. Game 3, I have 2 Stomping Ground, take him to 1 life by turn 6. Cards in hand: 2 Falkenrath Aristocrat, 1 Dreadbore, 1 Dreg Mangler. If I hit a single land with Black, I win. 10 turns, not a single land. He eventually gets enough of a board to win.
Round 3 vs. Aristocrats 0-2
I kept a bad hand game 1, not enough juice, he established his board. Game 2, I never see red mana. 5 lands, no red. From here on out I will aggressively mulligan.
Round 4 vs. RG Aggro 2-0
Despite good starts for him, I just curve out really well. I kept RGB mana each game.
Round 5 vs. RG Aggro 0-2
Game 1, I have him dead on board, but in order to setup my board I had taken 6 damage from shock lands. I am at 3, he top decks Searing Spear. Game 2, he has all red mana and nothing on the board but Boros Reckoner. I did get greedy and wasted removal too early. I had enough blockers to force him to block against me. However, he top decks Burning-Tree Emissary, allowing him to play the only blocker that would matter, Ghor-Clan Rampager. Instead of dead next turn as I run over Reckoner with blood rush on Flinthoof Boar, he then top decks Hellrider for game.
Round 6 vs. Naya Aggro 2-0
See rounds 1 and 4.
Round 7 vs. Boros Aggro 2-0
See rounds 1, 4, 6.
The only round I feel like I genuinely deserved to lose because of bad keeps/misplays was #3 vs Aristocrats, though game 2 of Round 5 I wasn't judicious with my removal. Against more aggressive decks, I realize we have to save our removal for their serious creatures, and instead block their little guys, since ours get larger, faster.
Except for the mana hiccups, which probably could have been avoided if I had mulliganed correctly, the deck was great. A good learning experience.
I never got to use Appetite for Brains, Olivia Voldaren or Domri Rade, but I seemingly played aggro pretty much all day. I'm not sure I like Olivia that much when I did bring her in. Because of all of the aggro, Wolfir Silverheart would have been better. Deathrite Shaman did very little, and was sided out every game except in the first round.
I also did nothing with Thundermaw Hellkite, but then again, I didn't face much mid-range. The games I lost, I could not have cast it anyway.
My removal suite was pretty good. I was very happy with 2 UP, 1 AD, and 2 Spear.
All three people I lost to placed higher than I did in the 4-3, except one guy who went 5-2.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures 32
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Mogg Flunkies
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-clam Rampager
2 Hellrider
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Searing Spear
2 Ultimate Price
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Rakdos charm
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Dreadbore
2 Domri Rade
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Appetite for Brains
I think I might change-up the side-board to improve my aggro match, but I am not sure what. Replace Olivia Voldaren with Wolfir Silverheart or Rakdos Cackler? Buffer the high-end or the low end? I am thinking against faster aggro decks, we want removal and things that pair and make walls and inevitability. I am also switching Kessig to side and Dragonskull Summit to main. 23 lands was generally awesome.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Your record against Aggro was reasonable considering it isn't what we aim for. It's too bad about the 2nd round. Because a win there probably would have set you nice for the rest of the day. And realistically in 7 round tournament you have atleast one round you lose(or end up in a tough position) due to just completely bricking (or mulliganing to almost oblivion). Later on it might not have hurt as much.
But outside of that looking good. I think 5 removal spells is about the sweet spot main. It seems your removal selection wasn't too taxed by Boros Reckoner, which is why I would be concerned with that combination. Deathrite definitely feels kind of weak when you don't need it but it's often a very nice hedge against Reanimator (or even UWR). I've won aggro matchups with it but it required weird lines that probably my main deck Domri supports more (and the more 5 drops). I'm not sure it's safe to cut it yet just kind of sucks when it isn't good. I'm interested to see how you will adjust your board after this tournament. I mean on one side you have to put it down to luck that you ended up in the aggro bracket., but on the other hand it definitely changes the weight of the utility of some options when something like that can happen.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Olivia Voldaren should go in for Hellrider against aggro.
I use Domri Rade vs Esper Control (Draw tech) and Red-based aggro and blitz, Aside from the extra removal, its saves some of my life points as most of the players I've had games with tend to kill Domri Asap by combat if they didnt have searing spear.
Its good vs reanimator yeah, but we are kind of looking for a sideboard material that works well with some decks otherwise, for example, deathrite shaman is not only good vs reanimator, but with UWR Flash as well.
Good wins pal. Your list is just right except that you may want to cut off hellrider and go low curve. Too bad for the draws you had in your losses.. that kind of luck is worse in MTGO..
I posted earlier about Volcanic strength in aristocrats.. You'll see potential.. Vs Aggro you can just side in more removal. I also quite using Volanic strength vs aggro and instead Im putting it in against aristocrats.
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013