I honestly feel like this deck is just organically turning into Aristocrats.
Zombies has the added benefit of being able to setup multiple sacrifices due to recurring Gravecrawlers...but suffers worse from early aggro with a lack of blockers T1 to T3.
T2 we have the options of Cartel Aristocrat, Diregraf Ghoul, and Blood Artist as blockers. We don't want to use Blood Artist as a blocker obviously.
T2 we sac Gravecrawler to Cartel Aristocrat to block. While our aggro enemy will have 3 guys to plow through. Cartel blocks one. T3 we can cast Geralf's(which wants to be sacc'ed to Cartel) and Lingering Souls. Assuming we have either of those...T3 Our opponent will have Silverblade or Boros Reckoner. Lingering Souls is preferable to Geralf's for early aggro. It gives us something to sacrifice and gives us a blocker. So we block whatever can be killed with Cartel after we sac a soul. Then the leftover soul chump blocks some poor guy.
T4, we can play geralf's and recast a gravecrawler. Which gives us more things to sac...but only one blocker.
T4, we can play Falkenrath Aristocrat...which doesn't really help anything unless we're trying to race, since we only have a Cartel to sac for it.
T4, we can flashback lingering souls and play a blood artist. This is probably the best option we can hope for against aggro T4. Resets us back to T3 with Lifegain.
After T4, we can usually stabilize but up to that point...we can be taking around 10-14 damage if we aren't careful.
So why not use Doomed Traveler? We get a free sac and then an immediate creature. We don't get endless value like we would from Gravecrawler...but I think it deserves a spot over Diregraf ghoul. It reduces our zombie count...but the only time we want Diregraf is to recast Gravecrawler...the only time we want gravecrawler is to create fodder for Cartel and Falkenrath....which won't come into play till after T4 and on. Otherwise...WE NEED early blockers since Ghor Clan Rampager is going to pump into lethal(especially if we run shock lands).
Doomed Traveler isn't as good in the long game(arguably, since he does give Falkenrath a +1/+1), but gives us more options early on.
Gravecrawler is better for the late game. He can be early pressure...but we want to sac him to Cartel early. But he comes back later whereas Doomed doesn't.
What if we throw in Skirsdag High Priest? It can gives us a 5/5 blocker by T3 if we run Doomed Traveler. T1, Doomed. T2, Cartel. T3, Skirsdag...sac Doomed and tap Cartel+Soul token from Doomed= 5/5 Flyer.
Why do we run Geralf's? It's good damage, wants to be sac'ed, recurs Gravecrawler. This card honestly isn't a T3 play in our deck! We're more worried about gaining board presence with good blockers early and then sacrificing them all for value and shooting for damage right around T4-T6.
Would Boros Reckoner be better? Damn good blocker. 2 for 1's. Shenanigans with Harvest Pyre, Blasphemous Act...etc..
Can end game T4 with Blasphemous Act. Shuts down early aggro. Doesn't really want to be sacrificed.
So the end result is...Splash red into BW Zombies and you slowly turn into The Aristocrats.
great points all of them, but high priest doesn't solve the problem of blocking early. I have gone back an forth main decking blind obedience. also agree that the deck moving toward b/w/r.
I feel like this deck has basically run its course.
Unless Zombies gets something in Dragon's Maze...
I don't feel like there is much Zombies can do anymore. Before, they were all about racing...we aren't the fastest anymore(not even BR Zombies)...so we can't depend on racing.
The zombies shell is too restrictive for not enough power. The Aristocrats deck got it right basing it on a human shell as everything actually has synergy.
Zombies misses that synergy, especially with the drawbacks. I feel like the deck's only options are to turn into control...which would mean dropping the zombies or relying on a sacrificing combo to drain the opponent for damage with Blood Artist out....or splash Red in an attempt for value in Falkenrath...but then we just turn into a bad Aristocrats deck.
Modern
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
Ian Howard's 4th place B/R Zombies in Pikeville, Tim O'Quin's B/W 6th place Zombies in Roanoke, and Phillip Bertorelli's 4th place R/B Zombies in Catskill- all on the sixth, the first two in SCG IQs and the last in a Super IQ- seem to indicate we're chugging along well enough-- or, at least, not dead in the water.
It's also natural for a tier-2 deck to seem meh right before a new bunch of cards come out. Most combinations and cards have been tried, so if none of them are perfect... then one might wanna give up. Fortunately, there ARE more coming!
I didn't mean the deck was completely washed up or anything. I miscommunicated it I guess. I just felt like we've tried all the avenues we have at hand.
And Im always skeptical of MonoBlack Zombie Aggro. Haha.
and can I get a link for where you get all your tourney results?
@Black Moose
I'm trying it at my local meta so there isn't any ink :(. And I can't test it in cockatrice
Anyway if you try it at your local meta pls tell me how is it going
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Modern
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
Got 3rd. I only remember playing against 2 decks...
One was Aristocrats V2 and the other was a budget RDW. I had won every match 2-0 except the finals match against this guy which was 1-2.
He was all happy and giddy and honestly obnoxious to all his opponents because he was sssooo happy he finally had a deck that works. Which is cool and all but our FNM is full of noobie decks so its going to be easy...
So I'll just go over my match with Aristocrats V2.
I don't even remember the first game.
I sided in KOI and Tragic Slip and took out 1 Victim of Night, 1 Lingering Souls, and High Priest.
Game 1: Mulled to 5. Lost.
Game 2: I raced him with a zombie nut draw and won.
Game 3: Mulled to 6. Kept a hand with two gravecrawlers, a blood artist, and a lingering souls.
I started to pull ahead and got board presence as he was faltering with only lingering of souls to hold me off. He resolved a total of 3 blasphemous acts that game. I tragic slip'd his Boros Reckoner so he didn't that gimmicky combo but seriously? THREE of them? Of course Im stupid and should've played around them and kept the board under the mana cost but still... THREE. I would create board presence and knock him down a few and he would wipe it. Rinse and repeat. I saved my removal for stuff like Blood Artist, Falkenrath Aristo, Boros Reckoner...
He was down to 6 and Im at 9..I had Cartel Aristocrat, Knight of Infamy, and Blood Artist with 4 swamps and 4 BW duals with one card in hand, Mark of Mutiny. He had two tapped Falkenrath Aristocrats and 4 Lingering Souls.
I pull a swamp. If I pulled a red source, any creature other than falkenrath aristocrat, or removal...I could've won. But alas, I didn't. I'd like to know the chances of that but whatever.
I swung for 4 with Cartel Aristocrat and Knight of Infamy, he can't block Knight and I was hoping he'd misplay and block Cartel Aristocrat with 2 lingering souls. He blocked with one Soul, KOI did 2 damage, which is 3 damage with Blood Artist...Sacrificed KOI and Blood Artist to Cartel Aristocrat(Does that work? Can I sacrifice Knight of Infamy to Cartel?)
aaannndd could only deal 5 damage.
Oh well. I didn't feel like I was out of it. After tonight...I feel like zombie aristocrats is really cool. It can race everything except Naya and Gruul...and for those we just flat out get more value than them out of our cards.
BUG Zombies posted a 13th place (B/W was second) and this is the direction I think Zombies needs to go if the deck is going to go out with a bang as the core of it rotates out. BUG gives you access to a wide variety of options with the various charms, seer, rancor, and counter magic along with the normal brain eating zombie clan.
I've also been playing around with BUG aggro and Rapid Hybridization is an absolute beast in that deck, and plays a similar role in this one. It can act as a cheap instant speed removal against troublesome creatures (hellrider, aristocrat, etc), and (my favorite thing to do) it can be used on your own creatures. Gravecrawler, Messenger, or really any creature that is about to die, are great targets that end up netting you a 3/3 for little cost (and in the case of Messenger, giving you a great benefit) The snapcaster (now with 12 targets) is a great value play, though not something that comes up every game.
The shamans are a great card, but I prefer them in the sideboard. Here is the sideboard I am running. It's kind of evolving as I tend to play around with the charms a bit between maindeck and sideboard.
I hate people that shoot down ideas without trying them but..I feel like its a little too presumptuous to assume that BUG is the way to go to make a bang.
The control would definitely be better and allow us tempo plays but Duskmantle Seer is not something I want at the top of my curve.
Seer is a flying 4/4...that helps our opponent. He is absolute TRASH against control...we save them mana and any relevant control is going to be packing Sphinx's Revelation and Thrag so the damage to them for drawing whatever card is irrelevant.
I'd like to see some more tech and play on it.
I feel like Charms are going to be the best thing going for this deck.
BUG is definitely not the only way to go to stay strong with this deck. I've still running a BW variant to great success. The only thing I've had real trouble with is Dark Naya Midrange. Here's my current list;
The deck doesn't have any SERIOUSLY bad matchups, other than maybe Jund, so the sideboard can easily be tailored to whatever your meta is like. The deck can play out like aggro and take games really early, but it's also very good at grinding it out nickle and diming your opponent while keeping yourself alive. It rewards tight play, and good combat math. Give it a try, it's a lot of fun to play.
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EDH WBRKaalia of the VastRBW BChainer, Dementia MasterB Legacy 0Manaless Dredge0 RGoblinsR Standard RBWThe AristocratsWBR
BUG is definitely not the only way to go to stay strong with this deck. I've still running a BW variant to great success. The only thing I've had real trouble with is Dark Naya Midrange. Here's my current list;
The deck doesn't have any SERIOUSLY bad matchups, other than maybe Jund, so the sideboard can easily be tailored to whatever your meta is like. The deck can play out like aggro and take games really early, but it's also very good at grinding it out nickle and diming your opponent while keeping yourself alive. It rewards tight play, and good combat math. Give it a try, it's a lot of fun to play.
BUG is definitely not the only way to go to stay strong with this deck. I've still running a BW variant to great success. The only thing I've had real trouble with is Dark Naya Midrange. Here's my current list;
The deck doesn't have any SERIOUSLY bad matchups, other than maybe Jund, so the sideboard can easily be tailored to whatever your meta is like. The deck can play out like aggro and take games really early, but it's also very good at grinding it out nickle and diming your opponent while keeping yourself alive. It rewards tight play, and good combat math. Give it a try, it's a lot of fun to play.
How do you side for each match up if you don't mind me asking?
Why do you use Altar's Reap? Are you sure you wouldn't rather have more removal?
How do you side for each match up if you don't mind me asking?
Why do you use Altar's Reap? Are you sure you wouldn't rather have more removal?
How is the Skirsdag High Priest? Is it worth it?
Appetite & Purify the Grave come in for Junk Rites. Sorin & Appetite come in for control mathups. Nighthawk is for aggro matchups. Oblivion Ring is for games where I end up needing more removal or enchantment/walker/etc. removal.
I find I don't really need all that much removal. There are very few things I can't just swing through, I'm rarely worried about them swinging back, except Naya Blitz and that's what Obzedat + Vampire Nighthawk are for, and even if they do I can always block for value w/ a Blood Artist/Messenger out. The Reaps are great at blanking removal, and as another sac outlet that draws more gas. Altar's Reaping a Geralf's Messenger in response to removal (especially Pillar!) is such a strong play. Follow that up with a Restoration Angel and another sac, and it just gets so dirty.
Skirsdag is really good. Triggering morbid here is really easy, with 6 sac outlets and the speed of our clock causing them to block, and dropping a free 5/5 flier is nothing to laugh about.
Appetite & Purify the Grave come in for Junk Rites. Sorin & Appetite come in for control mathups. Nighthawk is for aggro matchups. Oblivion Ring is for games where I end up needing more removal or enchantment/walker/etc. removal.
I find I don't really need all that much removal. There are very few things I can't just swing through, I'm rarely worried about them swinging back, except Naya Blitz and that's what Obzedat + Vampire Nighthawk are for, and even if they do I can always block for value w/ a Blood Artist/Messenger out. The Reaps are great at blanking removal, and as another sac outlet that draws more gas. Altar's Reaping a Geralf's Messenger in response to removal (especially Pillar!) is such a strong play. Follow that up with a Restoration Angel and another sac, and it just gets so dirty.
Skirsdag is really good. Triggering morbid here is really easy, with 6 sac outlets and the speed of our clock causing them to block, and dropping a free 5/5 flier is nothing to laugh about.
What do you take out for these match ups?
How do you feel about Cartel Aristocrat vs. Bloodthrone?
I'm liking this PTQ Theros London Zombies, where it came in at 2nd place. I know it's U/B but it seems so tight when you play it. Anybody willing to give it a try?
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The Soul of the World has returned.
Currently playing (when I can): Legacy/Modern Combo Elves & Burn and Pauper Stompy & Goblins. Level 1 DCI Judge
Economist & College Professor
I'm liking this PTQ Theros London Zombies, where it came in at 2nd place. I know it's U/B but it seems so tight when you play it. Anybody willing to give it a try?
How this got 2nd IDK...
It really does seem lack luster. Why Butcher Ghoul? Why Shadow Alley?
I'd rather sport 4 KOI.
Why no Evil Twin or Cackling Counterpart?
Why no tempo spells? No Dimir Charm?
No control?
I feel like there could be a lot more going on to actually abuse U/B...right now it just looks like Mono Black with the worst splashable creatures in there haha.
Although Diregraf Captain is obviously a prime choice.
It really does seem lack luster. Why Butcher Ghoul? Why Shadow Alley?
I'd rather sport 4 KOI.
Why no Evil Twin or Cackling Counterpart?
Why no tempo spells? No Dimir Charm?
No control?
I feel like there could be a lot more going on to actually abuse U/B...right now it just looks like Mono Black with the worst splashable creatures in there haha.
Although Diregraf Captain is obviously a prime choice.
All of those cards are somewhat synergistic. Sac a butcher ghoul, 1 life loss (assuming one of BA/DC) now your Bloodthrone has intimidate, sac him again 2 life loss your intimidate is now 5/5, do it with messenger and its just a dirty way to push through a lot of damage in a turn, or with a crwler in the yard pay B unblockable +2/+2 1 life loss.
Bringing back crawler every turn essentially makes one of your creatures unblockable and in this meta not too many decks sporting black creatures in top 8s. I like it. Its a very smart deck.
All of those cards are somewhat synergistic. Sac a butcher ghoul, 1 life loss (assuming one of BA/DC) now your Bloodthrone has intimidate, sac him again 2 life loss your intimidate is now 5/5, do it with messenger and its just a dirty way to push through a lot of damage in a turn, or with a crwler in the yard pay B unblockable +2/+2 1 life loss.
Bringing back crawler every turn essentially makes one of your creatures unblockable and in this meta not too many decks sporting black creatures in top 8s. I like it. Its a very smart deck.
Hmm...
this is true. Thank you for opening my eyes. I feel like its almost a combo deck. Take out a piece and the dirty way to get damage is gone. Although, its not like the deck has no chance after the Bloodthrone Alley combo is disrupted.
I might try it... I don't see the need to splash blue but okay. I almost feel like it should be BR.
I like the Corpse Blockade, its 5-6 Sac outlet and is just plain dirty with Highpriest and butcher ghoul. Declare blockers, Sac Ghoul (no damage by his attacker if thats relevant) give DT to blockade, ghoul comes back untapped, tap wall and ghoul to trigger highpriest ability, whoever Blockade blocked dies, and you get a 5/5. (and lose a bunch of life from DC/BA)
I feel like everyone is getting too close to Magic Christmas Land.
Of course everything works out when its T5 and we've stabilized and we just so happen to have Butcher Ghoul, Corpse Blockade, and Skirsdag Highpriest left after a grueling battle against an aggro deck(hehe..pun intended) or a struggle to resolve a creature against counterspelling control(alliteration intended). We would have situations like that without Butcher Ghoul...
T1 to 5 are IMPORTANT. I understand that all turns are important but by T6 we need to have either killed them or stabilized. Against control...they need to be dead by T5 or thragtusks/resto's for days. Does Butcher Ghoul deserve a spot over other T2's? Does Corpse Blockade deserve a spot over T3's? Do they help us achieve our goals overall?
What other T2's do we have access to?
Knight of Infamy- Good against any white based decks, good for racing..that sounds like a favorable match up against control and Naya.
Cartel Aristocrat- Resilient to whatever you want. Can be unblockable. Hard to remove. Sac outlet.
Bloodthrone Vampire- High resilience. Good blocker early game. Good attacker early. Good for explosive play. Good against Control and Aggro(if we are trying to race)
Blind Obedience- Hurts haste based aggro. Gives mana dump.
Blood Artist- Duh.
Divine Favor- Gains us life and gives us a quality creature against aggro.
Skirsdag High Priest- Potentially gives us a 5/5 flier and can serve as blocker fodder
High Priest of Penance- Can keep planeswalkers from ultimating, blocker and can shoot a creature. Creature-based removal.
WHEN would you want to play Butcher Ghoul T2?
If we are racing...Knight of Infamy/Bloodthrone Vampire takes priority.
If we are stabilizing...Blood Artist/Cartel Aristocrat/Blind Obedience/Divine Favor/High Priest of Penance
If we are digging...do we want to top deck this card? The only thing it offers is undying...Do we not have enough undying by the late game? Let's list everything that doesn't mind dying...
Gravecrawler...Geralf's...High Priest of Penance..
Which is atleast 8 spots from GC and GM.
At T2...we don't have a sac outlet if we play Butcher Ghoul. So T2 we have an undying blocker and either Gravecrawler or Diregraf Ghoul.
But if he provides enough end game value we'll keep him. Does his undying REALLY deserve him a spot over our other two drops? What would we want to top deck?
Assuming the game is about to end, we either need to win or keep from losing.
If its late game...I assume we have all mana necessary.
If we are about to win...do we want to top deck this instead of a:
Gravecrawler-(re-casted, re-sac for damage/life via blood artist or to make Cartel unblockable, or to pump Bloodthrone to stupid heights of power)
Diregraf Ghoul- Allows us to recast Gravecrawler assuming there are no zombies
Cartel- Unblockable/good blocker/sac outlet
Blood Artist- sets us up for sac-pinging
etc. etc.
The ONLY card that I can think of that Butcher Ghoul has more value over in the late game is Diregraf Ghoul. But Diregraf's early game value far outweighs Butcher(and they aren't even in the same CMC bracket)
Butcher Ghoul DOES NOT deserve a spot in our deck.
And the situations where he would be useful are too outlandish to be dependable or create enough value.
So stop that. *slaps hand*
Corpse Blockade would be better than Geralf's in an aggro match up. I believe this whole heartedly. His niche in being a good defender is great, especially since it seems like we don't really have good blockers T1 to 3.
But we lose overall value in Corpse Blockade. Only in the aggro match ups does he shine. Otherwise...we already have enough sac outlets.
We need to think about engineering better aggro match ups G1. I feel like we already have good match ups against Control since...well...we're zombies..with viable sac outlets.
I'll do some more theory stuff on Aggro in another post.
Wow thats a wall of text. It has some good points, I also like B/Wfor the record, and the power level of the cards in B/W is clearly well beyond that of B/U. It could be that it just metagamed well because of the intimidate, but you don't know until you play more than a handfull of games with it. To me the list seems tight and I for sure will be testing it later today.
And yet another dose of digging through Zombies topping in some odd place.....ehere's for the more aggro oriented, a nice, cozy Jund Zombies who got 3rd in Bulgaria's recent WMCQ (granted, 53 players):
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The Soul of the World has returned.
Currently playing (when I can): Legacy/Modern Combo Elves & Burn and Pauper Stompy & Goblins. Level 1 DCI Judge
Economist & College Professor
The next things I am going to test are:
Bloodthrone Vampire vs. Cartel Aristocrat
; less removal for High Priest, Lingering Souls, and a 4th Falkenrath Aristocrat
I feel like Gloom Surgeon is MD worthy to actually have a blocker T1-3. He's not a bad deal at all tbh. He is weak to removal but he isn't terrible against Control. If you pull a Surgeon and not a Cartel Aristo...you're still swinging for 2 with him. He weakens our control MU but we're zombies and don't really care. So I feel like its worth it and warranted.
I dunno how fond I am of Liliana in the main..she seems eh.
It can play like the Aristacrats sometimes but the ability to play geralfs in amazing.
Its super resilant and kill people without even attacking them with the Geralfs/Thrull parasite interaction.
This deck is sorta weak to pillar of flame but its not seeing the most play and when it does its usually a 2-of or in the board.
Can I get your opinion on Orzhov Charm? I personally don't like it. I'd rather have a creature to block than the Charm. I don't feel like its versatility is all that good either. The bounce effect and re-casting 1 mana is sort of..meh.
Any reason for the 1 Bloodthrone?
Is Thrull Parasite's utility truly worth slicing out slots for him?
Any suggestions for my deck?
I personally don't find the deck to be weak to Pillar...The sac outlets allow us to avoid it and gain value haha.
great points all of them, but high priest doesn't solve the problem of blocking early. I have gone back an forth main decking blind obedience. also agree that the deck moving toward b/w/r.
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It almost seems like Vampire Nighthawk is a maindeck option.
Blocks a 2/2, gains us 2 life.
Or we could maindeck Faith's Shield or Divine Favor.
Cower in Fear?
Corpse Blockade?
Geralf's is...ironically too slow haha
Unless Zombies gets something in Dragon's Maze...
I don't feel like there is much Zombies can do anymore. Before, they were all about racing...we aren't the fastest anymore(not even BR Zombies)...so we can't depend on racing.
The zombies shell is too restrictive for not enough power. The Aristocrats deck got it right basing it on a human shell as everything actually has synergy.
Zombies misses that synergy, especially with the drawbacks. I feel like the deck's only options are to turn into control...which would mean dropping the zombies or relying on a sacrificing combo to drain the opponent for damage with Blood Artist out....or splash Red in an attempt for value in Falkenrath...but then we just turn into a bad Aristocrats deck.
I really have no idea what more to try.
You can try the deck to go aggro combo like basic idea from Sam Black. I'm testing this deck
22 Swamps
Instant/Sorcery
4 Immortal Servitude
4 Tragic Slip
3 Victim of Night
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf Messengger
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Blood Artist
4 BloodThrone Vampire
2 Skirsdag High Priest
4 Knight of Infamy
1 Vampire NightHawk
I'm still not satisfied with knight of infamy and the nighthwak but I'm still searching for it's replacement
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot activeI didn't mean the deck was completely washed up or anything. I miscommunicated it I guess. I just felt like we've tried all the avenues we have at hand.
And Im always skeptical of MonoBlack Zombie Aggro. Haha.
and can I get a link for where you get all your tourney results?
I'm trying it at my local meta so there isn't any ink :(. And I can't test it in cockatrice
Anyway if you try it at your local meta pls tell me how is it going
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Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot active4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Knight of Infamy
1 High Priest of Penance
4 Blood Artist
Spells: 12
3 Lingering Souls
1 Dreadbore
3 Tragic Slip
2 Victim of Night
3 Mark of Mutiny
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
6 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Appetite for Brains
2 Knight of Infamy
1 Rakdos’s Return
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Gloom Surgeon
1 Tragic Slip
Got 3rd. I only remember playing against 2 decks...
One was Aristocrats V2 and the other was a budget RDW. I had won every match 2-0 except the finals match against this guy which was 1-2.
He was all happy and giddy and honestly obnoxious to all his opponents because he was sssooo happy he finally had a deck that works. Which is cool and all but our FNM is full of noobie decks so its going to be easy...
So I'll just go over my match with Aristocrats V2.
I don't even remember the first game.
I sided in KOI and Tragic Slip and took out 1 Victim of Night, 1 Lingering Souls, and High Priest.
Game 1: Mulled to 5. Lost.
Game 2: I raced him with a zombie nut draw and won.
Game 3: Mulled to 6. Kept a hand with two gravecrawlers, a blood artist, and a lingering souls.
I started to pull ahead and got board presence as he was faltering with only lingering of souls to hold me off. He resolved a total of 3 blasphemous acts that game. I tragic slip'd his Boros Reckoner so he didn't that gimmicky combo but seriously? THREE of them? Of course Im stupid and should've played around them and kept the board under the mana cost but still... THREE. I would create board presence and knock him down a few and he would wipe it. Rinse and repeat. I saved my removal for stuff like Blood Artist, Falkenrath Aristo, Boros Reckoner...
He was down to 6 and Im at 9..I had Cartel Aristocrat, Knight of Infamy, and Blood Artist with 4 swamps and 4 BW duals with one card in hand, Mark of Mutiny. He had two tapped Falkenrath Aristocrats and 4 Lingering Souls.
I pull a swamp. If I pulled a red source, any creature other than falkenrath aristocrat, or removal...I could've won. But alas, I didn't. I'd like to know the chances of that but whatever.
I swung for 4 with Cartel Aristocrat and Knight of Infamy, he can't block Knight and I was hoping he'd misplay and block Cartel Aristocrat with 2 lingering souls. He blocked with one Soul, KOI did 2 damage, which is 3 damage with Blood Artist...Sacrificed KOI and Blood Artist to Cartel Aristocrat(Does that work? Can I sacrifice Knight of Infamy to Cartel?)
aaannndd could only deal 5 damage.
Oh well. I didn't feel like I was out of it. After tonight...I feel like zombie aristocrats is really cool. It can race everything except Naya and Gruul...and for those we just flat out get more value than them out of our cards.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54977
I've been testing this for a bit and here are my thoughts on this list. The deck is a blast to play.
-3Deathrite Shaman
-1Rancor
+3 Rapid Hybridization
+1 Snapcaster Mage
I've also been playing around with BUG aggro and Rapid Hybridization is an absolute beast in that deck, and plays a similar role in this one. It can act as a cheap instant speed removal against troublesome creatures (hellrider, aristocrat, etc), and (my favorite thing to do) it can be used on your own creatures. Gravecrawler, Messenger, or really any creature that is about to die, are great targets that end up netting you a 3/3 for little cost (and in the case of Messenger, giving you a great benefit) The snapcaster (now with 12 targets) is a great value play, though not something that comes up every game.
The shamans are a great card, but I prefer them in the sideboard. Here is the sideboard I am running. It's kind of evolving as I tend to play around with the charms a bit between maindeck and sideboard.
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Golgari Charm
2x Simic Charm
2x Gloom Surgeon
2x Dispel
Anyone else played with this deck?
The control would definitely be better and allow us tempo plays but Duskmantle Seer is not something I want at the top of my curve.
Seer is a flying 4/4...that helps our opponent. He is absolute TRASH against control...we save them mana and any relevant control is going to be packing Sphinx's Revelation and Thrag so the damage to them for drawing whatever card is irrelevant.
I'd like to see some more tech and play on it.
I feel like Charms are going to be the best thing going for this deck.
4x Gravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Bloodthrone Vampire
2x Cartel Aristocrat
2x Skirsdag High Priest
4x Blood Artist
3x Restoration Angel
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
3x Altar's Reap
2x Tragic Slip
Sorceries (4)
4x Lingering Souls
Lands (23)
4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Orzhov Guildgate
1x Vault of the Archangel
10x Swamp
3x Purify the Grave
3x Appetite for Brains
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Oblivion Ring
The deck doesn't have any SERIOUSLY bad matchups, other than maybe Jund, so the sideboard can easily be tailored to whatever your meta is like. The deck can play out like aggro and take games really early, but it's also very good at grinding it out nickle and diming your opponent while keeping yourself alive. It rewards tight play, and good combat math. Give it a try, it's a lot of fun to play.
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
How do you side for each match up if you don't mind me asking?
Why do you use Altar's Reap? Are you sure you wouldn't rather have more removal?
How is the Skirsdag High Priest? Is it worth it?
Appetite & Purify the Grave come in for Junk Rites. Sorin & Appetite come in for control mathups. Nighthawk is for aggro matchups. Oblivion Ring is for games where I end up needing more removal or enchantment/walker/etc. removal.
I find I don't really need all that much removal. There are very few things I can't just swing through, I'm rarely worried about them swinging back, except Naya Blitz and that's what Obzedat + Vampire Nighthawk are for, and even if they do I can always block for value w/ a Blood Artist/Messenger out. The Reaps are great at blanking removal, and as another sac outlet that draws more gas. Altar's Reaping a Geralf's Messenger in response to removal (especially Pillar!) is such a strong play. Follow that up with a Restoration Angel and another sac, and it just gets so dirty.
Skirsdag is really good. Triggering morbid here is really easy, with 6 sac outlets and the speed of our clock causing them to block, and dropping a free 5/5 flier is nothing to laugh about.
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
What do you take out for these match ups?
How do you feel about Cartel Aristocrat vs. Bloodthrone?
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Watery Grave
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Blood Artist
4 Bloodthrone Vampire
2 Corpse Blockade
2 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Shadow Alley Denizen
2 Butcher Ghoul
1 Duskmantle Seer
2 Victim of Night
4 Appetite for Brains
4 Duress
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Murder
3 Liliana of the Veil
I'm liking this PTQ Theros London Zombies, where it came in at 2nd place. I know it's U/B but it seems so tight when you play it. Anybody willing to give it a try?
The Soul of the World has returned.
Currently playing (when I can): Legacy/Modern Combo Elves & Burn and Pauper Stompy & Goblins.
Level 1 DCI Judge
Economist & College Professor
How this got 2nd IDK...
It really does seem lack luster. Why Butcher Ghoul? Why Shadow Alley?
I'd rather sport 4 KOI.
Why no Evil Twin or Cackling Counterpart?
Why no tempo spells? No Dimir Charm?
No control?
I feel like there could be a lot more going on to actually abuse U/B...right now it just looks like Mono Black with the worst splashable creatures in there haha.
Although Diregraf Captain is obviously a prime choice.
All of those cards are somewhat synergistic. Sac a butcher ghoul, 1 life loss (assuming one of BA/DC) now your Bloodthrone has intimidate, sac him again 2 life loss your intimidate is now 5/5, do it with messenger and its just a dirty way to push through a lot of damage in a turn, or with a crwler in the yard pay B unblockable +2/+2 1 life loss.
Bringing back crawler every turn essentially makes one of your creatures unblockable and in this meta not too many decks sporting black creatures in top 8s. I like it. Its a very smart deck.
Hmm...
this is true. Thank you for opening my eyes. I feel like its almost a combo deck. Take out a piece and the dirty way to get damage is gone. Although, its not like the deck has no chance after the Bloodthrone Alley combo is disrupted.
I might try it... I don't see the need to splash blue but okay. I almost feel like it should be BR.
Of course everything works out when its T5 and we've stabilized and we just so happen to have Butcher Ghoul, Corpse Blockade, and Skirsdag Highpriest left after a grueling battle against an aggro deck(hehe..pun intended) or a struggle to resolve a creature against counterspelling control(alliteration intended). We would have situations like that without Butcher Ghoul...
T1 to 5 are IMPORTANT. I understand that all turns are important but by T6 we need to have either killed them or stabilized. Against control...they need to be dead by T5 or thragtusks/resto's for days. Does Butcher Ghoul deserve a spot over other T2's? Does Corpse Blockade deserve a spot over T3's? Do they help us achieve our goals overall?
What other T2's do we have access to?
Knight of Infamy- Good against any white based decks, good for racing..that sounds like a favorable match up against control and Naya.
Cartel Aristocrat- Resilient to whatever you want. Can be unblockable. Hard to remove. Sac outlet.
Bloodthrone Vampire- High resilience. Good blocker early game. Good attacker early. Good for explosive play. Good against Control and Aggro(if we are trying to race)
Blind Obedience- Hurts haste based aggro. Gives mana dump.
Blood Artist- Duh.
Divine Favor- Gains us life and gives us a quality creature against aggro.
Skirsdag High Priest- Potentially gives us a 5/5 flier and can serve as blocker fodder
High Priest of Penance- Can keep planeswalkers from ultimating, blocker and can shoot a creature. Creature-based removal.
WHEN would you want to play Butcher Ghoul T2?
If we are racing...Knight of Infamy/Bloodthrone Vampire takes priority.
If we are stabilizing...Blood Artist/Cartel Aristocrat/Blind Obedience/Divine Favor/High Priest of Penance
If we are digging...do we want to top deck this card? The only thing it offers is undying...Do we not have enough undying by the late game? Let's list everything that doesn't mind dying...
Gravecrawler...Geralf's...High Priest of Penance..
Which is atleast 8 spots from GC and GM.
At T2...we don't have a sac outlet if we play Butcher Ghoul. So T2 we have an undying blocker and either Gravecrawler or Diregraf Ghoul.
But if he provides enough end game value we'll keep him. Does his undying REALLY deserve him a spot over our other two drops? What would we want to top deck?
Assuming the game is about to end, we either need to win or keep from losing.
If its late game...I assume we have all mana necessary.
If we are about to win...do we want to top deck this instead of a:
Gravecrawler-(re-casted, re-sac for damage/life via blood artist or to make Cartel unblockable, or to pump Bloodthrone to stupid heights of power)
Diregraf Ghoul- Allows us to recast Gravecrawler assuming there are no zombies
Cartel- Unblockable/good blocker/sac outlet
Blood Artist- sets us up for sac-pinging
etc. etc.
The ONLY card that I can think of that Butcher Ghoul has more value over in the late game is Diregraf Ghoul. But Diregraf's early game value far outweighs Butcher(and they aren't even in the same CMC bracket)
Butcher Ghoul DOES NOT deserve a spot in our deck.
And the situations where he would be useful are too outlandish to be dependable or create enough value.
So stop that. *slaps hand*
Corpse Blockade would be better than Geralf's in an aggro match up. I believe this whole heartedly. His niche in being a good defender is great, especially since it seems like we don't really have good blockers T1 to 3.
But we lose overall value in Corpse Blockade. Only in the aggro match ups does he shine. Otherwise...we already have enough sac outlets.
We need to think about engineering better aggro match ups G1. I feel like we already have good match ups against Control since...well...we're zombies..with viable sac outlets.
I'll do some more theory stuff on Aggro in another post.
Tell me how the deck goes!
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Swamp
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Knight of Infamy
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Victim of Night
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Victim of Night
1 Human Frailty
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Dreadbore
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Appetite for Brains
The Soul of the World has returned.
Currently playing (when I can): Legacy/Modern Combo Elves & Burn and Pauper Stompy & Goblins.
Level 1 DCI Judge
Economist & College Professor
I guess it can get away with racing Naya Blitz etc. due to superior removal and long game value.
I really want to use it D:
In a list like that Zombie Apocalypse might just be useable against Midrange haha.
I'd love to try it if I had the B/G duals.
EDIT:
Didn't want to double post so I'll just throw this in my edit.
Im going to run Gloom Surgeons MB tonight at FNM. This is what my deck will look like.
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Gloom Surgeon
4 Blood Artist
1 Liliana of the Veil
Spells: 10
3 Lingering Souls
1 Dreadbore
3 Tragic Slip
3 Mark of Mutiny
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
6 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Knight of Infamy
1 Rakdos’s Return
2 Oblivion Ring
2 High Priest of Penance
The next things I am going to test are:
Bloodthrone Vampire vs. Cartel Aristocrat
; less removal for High Priest, Lingering Souls, and a 4th Falkenrath Aristocrat
I feel like Gloom Surgeon is MD worthy to actually have a blocker T1-3. He's not a bad deal at all tbh. He is weak to removal but he isn't terrible against Control. If you pull a Surgeon and not a Cartel Aristo...you're still swinging for 2 with him. He weakens our control MU but we're zombies and don't really care. So I feel like its worth it and warranted.
I dunno how fond I am of Liliana in the main..she seems eh.
11 [IN] Swamp (2)
4 [GP] Godless Shrine
4 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
2 [GTC] Orzhov Guildgate
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
3 [AVR] Blood Artist
4 [DKA] Geralf's Messenger
1 [M13] Bloodthrone Vampire
4 [GTC] Cartel Aristocrat
2 [GTC] Thrull Parasite
4 [ISD] Diregraf Ghoul
4 [DKA] Gravecrawler
3 [GTC] Orzhov Charm
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [DKA] Tragic Slip
It can play like the Aristacrats sometimes but the ability to play geralfs in amazing.
Its super resilant and kill people without even attacking them with the Geralfs/Thrull parasite interaction.
This deck is sorta weak to pillar of flame but its not seeing the most play and when it does its usually a 2-of or in the board.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Can I get your opinion on Orzhov Charm? I personally don't like it. I'd rather have a creature to block than the Charm. I don't feel like its versatility is all that good either. The bounce effect and re-casting 1 mana is sort of..meh.
Any reason for the 1 Bloodthrone?
Is Thrull Parasite's utility truly worth slicing out slots for him?
Any suggestions for my deck?
I personally don't find the deck to be weak to Pillar...The sac outlets allow us to avoid it and gain value haha.