Several changes I have made recently from the way I was running this when GC first dropped. First, I have moved Obzedat, Ghost Council to the SB. I was having to side it out a lot at the KC SCG due to all the fast decks I was matched up against. I feel its better against control and Mid-Range. Also, the reason I have decided to add Rhox Faithmender to the SB for those matches against Blitz style decks. Another "big" change I made for KC was dropping Cartel Aristocrat in favor of Bloodthrone Vampire. I LOVED this card. It was so bursty that it gave opponents fits when I was able to cast Lingering Souls the next turn and swing with a 5/5 or be able to sit behind a potential wall of blockers and kill their main threat. The other recent addition I am testing is Faith's Reward. I find my self just shy of a full sac kill T5 and then they are able to comeback and drop Thragtusk or Resto their already in play Thrag, which gave me fits all day. Saw WAY too many Tusk and Huntmaters all day. So, I am trying this out to try and give the deck a little more finishing punch. The idea is to EOT get all your sac trigger's then cast Faith's Reward before they can gain enough life to stabilize. The other bonus for Faith's Reward is that it gets around sevearl GY hate mechanins as it does not "Target". One other MD addition is Blind Obedience. Seems that we have a few too many threats that hit the field tapped and we can sometimes get overrun by faster decks that can drop blockers and or hasty solutions. This will hopefully even the playing field allowing us to get attacks through getting that extra bit of combat damage we so desperately need before we can sac out. Plus late game the extort shenanigans with Gravecrawler recast can get a little out of control. Trust me, I have sat back behind a Bloodthrone Vampire, Diregraf Ghoul and a pair of Crawlers with BO out and Extorted out a win over a few turns where my opponent was not able to swing through my 5/5 Vamp for any kind of major damage.
I've thought about Bloodthrone Vampire, and while I'll probably end up testing it, I prefer Aristocrat. We're not trying to burst them down. We're trying to grind them out. Sure, it'd be awesome to sac a bunch of Souls to it and swing for 10 t3/t4, but unless you have Artist out what do you have to back that up? Not to mention it just gets chump blocked for days. Opposing Souls shuts it down pretty hard. Artistocrat is a lot more reliable as a blocker, and attacker. As far as aggro goes, I've found 4x Vampire Nighthawk out of the board to be plenty to keep myself alive. Once Obzedat comes down it's over. Against Junk Rites/other midrange, Obzedat, Orzhov Charm, and just straight up grinding it out have done fine for me. On paper it looks scary, they gain so much life from Huntmaster and Thragtusk, but playing the MU I've found you just have to grind it through and it's usually not hard to scrape it out.
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i have been playing a zombie aristocrat deck for about a month to some very good success. my meta has 2 players who always play junk and 4 color rites. i have found two zeoulous conscripts and 2 resto angles works ok main deck without giving up too much. couple with some sb hate and i have gone 8 win 10 losses vs these decks. I have not had any other problems with other deck with include naya blitz esper control jund mid range experiment jund.
i have the hardest time beating multiple hunt masters resto angels and thragtusk. i can beat any two of the three card, any three about half the time, and four very seldom and never five. Thank god there is only one naya mid range deck at my lgs and he doesn't always play. if anybody is interested i can post a list.
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The Soul of the World has returned.
Currently playing (when I can): Legacy/Modern Combo Elves & Burn and Pauper Stompy & Goblins. Level 1 DCI Judge
Economist & College Professor
How do you guys handle the Naya blitz matchup? With gravecrawlers not being able to block, and diregraf/geralfs coming in tapped sometimes I feel like its impossible to stop them. Im bring in 4 nighthawks and 1 gloom surgeon and I feel sometimes its too slow.
Is lilliana supposed to stay in after SB? My mainboard removal is 1 dreabore, 4 victim of night and 2 bonfires. Maybe I should add a slip into the mix?
How do you guys handle the Naya blitz matchup? With gravecrawlers not being able to block, and diregraf/geralfs coming in tapped sometimes I feel like its impossible to stop them. Im bring in 4 nighthawks and 1 gloom surgeon and I feel sometimes its too slow.
Thanks for the input Ben. I agree with you Cackler has been underwhelming in my playtests, I have debated replacing them with either 3 Gloom Surgeon or 3 Blood Artist.
I agree that 4 Lilliana may be to much, I will probably drop that number down to 3. I get that esper is underplayed, but I think Lilli is very good in g1 verse almost any matchup.
Since I am playing in Atlanta this weekend, I expect to see a lot of aggro and junk. I will probably mainboard more tragic slips.
I have a jund zombies list that has done well for me, Lotleth troll really helps against blitz strategies, but sometimes the manabase cause really awkward hands.
i cant decide on some of the cards so i put some of the variations ive tried... what do you guys think?? ( the dreadbore and tragic slip numbers i havent decided yet)
Any comments are welcome. SB is not posted because my lgs meta is going to very different yours. I feel like i have a chance to win every game with this deck. My biggest problem is getting spammed by thragtusks and resto angles. I feel like game one i am a dog to reanimator, but that is what my sideboard is tuned for. No counter spells in my meta so no caverns.
Any comments are welcome. SB is not posted because my lgs meta is going to very different yours. I feel like i have a chance to win every game with this deck. My biggest problem is getting spammed by thragtusks and resto angles. I feel like game one i am a dog to reanimator, but that is what my sideboard is tuned for. No counter spells in my meta so no caverns.
i really like your deck, but id take out either the Zealous Conscripts or the Restoration Angel for a couple of sorin, he can either win you the game with the emblem or you can stall with tokens, + works pretty well with blood artists and aristocrats
but im not a big fan of conscripts for some reason i like to top my curve at 4
i just noticed conscripts is your only threaten effect, so maybe some mark of mutiny?
to be honest i havent tested them properly yet, i just expect more flexibility from a 5 mana drop, idk it just seems thundermaw hellkite, while being worse against reanimator (he is still pretty useful as he can race them) he is just nuts against decks running 4 copies of lingering souls which sometimes is a high % of my meta, and against everything else he still is a 5/5 for 5 with haste and evasion and he taps flyiers as he enters so he actually makes good combo with restoration angel and having just typed that i realized why zealous conscripts is good on BWR zombies lol, GOD IM HIGH haha, so those are my 2 cents many of my card choices are based on my meta and my playstyle so maybe zealous conscripts is a better card in your hands than in mine, so its all good either way... if it aint broke why fix it
also some people are having great success with blind obedience, while entering tapped dosent hurt some decks, it also has extort if the game stalls
2-1 against Jund Midrange all games were close. I pulled wins out of my buttocks by pulling a red source for Mark of Mutiny to take his Huntmaster and swing/sac for game. Lost a game because he just kept me locked down and Huntmaster flipped frequently. Last game went to turns and on T4 I sac'd everything I had to ping Blood Artist for 5.
0-2 against Mono Green beatdown. Too many strangleroot geists. She had Abrupt Decay to take out my blockers to support her 2 strangleroots. I really don't know how to deal with Aggro right now and my sideboard hasn't seen enough action. Im thinking about throwing in Pillar of Flame/Searing Spear/etc.. into the SB.
We played a funsies game after that with all our stuff sided in against each other. I wont he first game and we didn't get to finish the second because pairings were up but it looked like she was gong to take it.
2-1 against BW ramp. Its really a bad deck and I won the first game and I erroneously kept a bad hand 2nd game and on T4/5 he had Crypt Ghast and Bloodgift demons out while I had no removal and no creatures since he got rid of them. He kept a STUPID bad hand G3 with 1 land, 2 Unhallowed Summonings, 1 Crypt Ghast, 3 Ultimate Prices.
2-0 Played a bad Green ramp deck.
2-0 I raced a BR deck with Zombie nut draws backed with Blood Artist and I won as he got stuck on 3 or 4 mana with no double red so no Hellrider. He got it out once but I killed it.
Overall thoughts: Threaten effects are the way to go. I don't think Zealous Conscripts should be in the main. I won 3 of my games last night from clutch Threaten effects, 1 against Jund Midrange, 2 against BR Aggro. Blind Obedience has blown every time...I'm thinking about taking it out of the side. I'm thinking O-Rings in the Side because Control is a pain with their forms of removal. Lingering Souls is usually sided out so I'm thinking a lower count on them. I'm considering Knight of Infamy for their pro-white to stem early white aggro. Vampire Nighthawk is too good...too good that I don't even get to play him..he gets removed immediately everytime I use him haha so I guess that's a good sign. Rakdos's Return is great against Control and Midrange...maybe a 1 of from now on though. I think the 1 Mark of Mutiny can come out of the side..its just not needed. Appetite is obviously good. Although it is hit and miss a lot. Mutilates...are meh..I side them in against aggro..and I haven't seen it shine too often. Thinking about Rhox Faithmenders instead of Mutilates. I played Gloom Surgeons against aggro but they got removed. I don't know if they are worth it. Orzhov Charm...isn't very good removal..Considering taking out an OC for a Tragic Slip.
Diregraf ghoul is meh. It is ONLY good when we have Gravecrawler AND Cartel Aristocrat..the sac' package. It almost seems like a combo deck and I hate that. I'm going to take one out.
Hellrider eats people alive. Plus he synergizes well with Lingering Souls. I want more removal so Ultimate Price was thrown in.
Sideboard:
-2 Blind..its just not performing well enough, I'd rather have instant removal to deal with hasty threats
-1 Mark of Mutiny..we have enough threaten effect
-1 Rakdos's Return..we don't truly have the mana to support this card and one of seems fine.
+3 Knight of Infamy...manhandles white
+1 Duress...hits what we want out of control to replace Rakdos's Return
I'm torn on how many Gloom Surgeons and Mutilates to run. I'll keep them as they are to get more play time with them. Suggestions on how many to run would be appreciated.
I want to try out throwing in Thundermaws like this guy. I just don't know if its really worth it or if I want removal.
2-1 against Jund Midrange all games were close. I pulled wins out of my buttocks by pulling a red source for Mark of Mutiny to take his Huntmaster and swing/sac for game. Lost a game because he just kept me locked down and Huntmaster flipped frequently. Last game went to turns and on T4 I sac'd everything I had to ping Blood Artist for 5.
0-2 against Mono Green beatdown. Too many strangleroot geists. She had Abrupt Decay to take out my blockers to support her 2 strangleroots. I really don't know how to deal with Aggro right now and my sideboard hasn't seen enough action. Im thinking about throwing in Pillar of Flame/Searing Spear/etc.. into the SB.
We played a funsies game after that with all our stuff sided in against each other. I wont he first game and we didn't get to finish the second because pairings were up but it looked like she was gong to take it.
2-1 against BW ramp. Its really a bad deck and I won the first game and I erroneously kept a bad hand 2nd game and on T4/5 he had Crypt Ghast and Bloodgift demons out while I had no removal and no creatures since he got rid of them. He kept a STUPID bad hand G3 with 1 land, 2 Unhallowed Summonings, 1 Crypt Ghast, 3 Ultimate Prices.
2-0 Played a bad Green ramp deck.
2-0 I raced a BR deck with Zombie nut draws backed with Blood Artist and I won as he got stuck on 3 or 4 mana with no double red so no Hellrider. He got it out once but I killed it.
Overall thoughts: Threaten effects are the way to go. I don't think Zealous Conscripts should be in the main. I won 3 of my games last night from clutch Threaten effects, 1 against Jund Midrange, 2 against BR Aggro. Blind Obedience has blown every time...I'm thinking about taking it out of the side. I'm thinking O-Rings in the Side because Control is a pain with their forms of removal. Lingering Souls is usually sided out so I'm thinking a lower count on them. I'm considering Knight of Infamy for their pro-white to stem early white aggro. Vampire Nighthawk is too good...too good that I don't even get to play him..he gets removed immediately everytime I use him haha so I guess that's a good sign. Rakdos's Return is great against Control and Midrange...maybe a 1 of from now on though. I think the 1 Mark of Mutiny can come out of the side..its just not needed. Appetite is obviously good. Although it is hit and miss a lot. Mutilates...are meh..I side them in against aggro..and I haven't seen it shine too often. Thinking about Rhox Faithmenders instead of Mutilates. I played Gloom Surgeons against aggro but they got removed. I don't know if they are worth it. Orzhov Charm...isn't very good removal..Considering taking out an OC for a Tragic Slip.
Diregraf ghoul is meh. It is ONLY good when we have Gravecrawler AND Cartel Aristocrat..the sac' package. It almost seems like a combo deck and I hate that. I'm going to take one out.
Hellrider eats people alive. Plus he synergizes well with Lingering Souls. I want more removal so Ultimate Price was thrown in.
Sideboard:
-2 Blind..its just not performing well enough, I'd rather have instant removal to deal with hasty threats
-1 Mark of Mutiny..we have enough threaten effect
-1 Rakdos's Return..we don't truly have the mana to support this card and one of seems fine.
+3 Knight of Infamy...manhandles white
+1 Duress...hits what we want out of control to replace Rakdos's Return
I'm torn on how many Gloom Surgeons and Mutilates to run. I'll keep them as they are to get more play time with them. Suggestions on how many to run would be appreciated.
I want to try out throwing in Thundermaws like this guy. I just don't know if its really worth it or if I want removal.
My main goal is to keep aggro from doing damage to me turns 2-3. Nighthawk, Gloom, Cartel...just doesn't appear enough. Help against aggro!!
Great list dude
i can vouch for gloom surgeon he is just nuts against aggro and decks with little removal, that being said i run 3 gloom and 4 KOI maindeck that extra +1+1 from exalted makes gloom pretty scary againts GW aggro (most dominant aggro in mi meta)
If you are runing 4 blood artists then mutilate is a good choice, killing wave also makes for good removal, since you could keep 1 diregraf or whatever creature is non recurring and just bounce messengers and gravecrawlers, falkenrath aristocrat has no way around mutilate, so be prepared to lose her sometimes.
my current maideck looks alot like peoples deck g2 vs aggro i run 3 nighthawks 4 KOI and 3 surgeons as well as 7 removal spells, i dont have many problems with aggro while still doing pretty good game 1 vs esper and midrange.
reanimator is a little hard, but after sideboard i usually have the advantage.
I wouldnt put hellrider and messenger togather in a 3 color deck, will lead to mana proplems IMHO Instead i would recomend you put some Sorin, Lord of Innistrad as he fits the curve and can be very relevant in every matchup if used correctly.
i would also consider olivia voldaren, if you are runing some nighthawks and gloom surgeons you can keep things going much longer than a normal zombie deck, she pretty much is an answer or lose threat to most aggro decks.
I read your list again and i noticed how many sac outlets you have, and i must insist you try sorin its easier on your mana and gives you things to sac or a little damage boost after a threaten effect to end the game.
i can vouch for gloom surgeon he is just nuts against aggro and decks with little removal, that being said i run 3 gloom and 4 KOI maindeck that extra +1+1 from exalted makes gloom pretty scary againts GW aggro (most dominant aggro in mi meta)
If you are runing 4 blood artists then mutilate is a good choice, killing wave also makes for good removal, since you could keep 1 diregraf or whatever creature is non recurring and just bounce messengers and gravecrawlers, falkenrath aristocrat has no way around mutilate, so be prepared to lose her sometimes.
my current maideck looks alot like peoples deck g2 vs aggro i run 3 nighthawks 4 KOI and 3 surgeons as well as 7 removal spells, i dont have many problems with aggro while still doing pretty good game 1 vs esper and midrange.
reanimator is a little hard, but after sideboard i usually have the advantage.
I wouldnt put hellrider and messenger togather in a 3 color deck, will lead to mana proplems IMHO Instead i would recomend you put some Sorin, Lord of Innistrad as he fits the curve and can be very relevant in every matchup if used correctly.
i would also consider olivia voldaren, if you are runing some nighthawks and gloom surgeons you can keep things going much longer than a normal zombie deck, she pretty much is an answer or lose threat to most aggro decks.
I read your list again and i noticed how many sac outlets you have, and i must insist you try sorin its easier on your mana and gives you things to sac or a little damage boost after a threaten effect to end the game.
It sounds like you're really anti aggro. Could you post your list?
Hellrider does sound like he'd be tough on the mana..but BR Zombies got away with it with only 10ish sources of Red. Which is what I will run. Throw in Rakdos GG's instead of Orzhov. Or just straight mountains.
If it doesn't work out then I'll take him out but I think its worth a shot.
Sorin seems clunky...but if I get my hands on him I'll try it. I just don't think that making a 1/1 chump blocker is what I want on T4. If it's aggro..I'll be dead by T5. If it's control...Thragtusks all day and Sorin's ultimate wouldn't help me that much against control because by T7 they'd have mana out the b-hole.
If I give my anthem... on T4...yeah okay maybe. I can see that helping out.
I'm just really frustrated. I don't know what to put in to win me games. It's like aggro is just auto lose every time and it pisses me off. I want creatures that can block profitably all the time. Blood Artist needs other cards around..Cartel Aristocrat needs other cards around..Gravecrawler needs Diregraf..Diregraf comes in tapped..Geralf's comes in tapped. It's like I honestly just have no options T1-3..
It's bothersome. I want things that can do stuff T1-3
It sounds like you're really anti aggro. Could you post your list?
Hellrider does sound like he'd be tough on the mana..but BR Zombies got away with it with only 10ish sources of Red. Which is what I will run. Throw in Rakdos GG's instead of Orzhov. Or just straight mountains.
If it doesn't work out then I'll take him out but I think its worth a shot.
Sorin seems clunky...but if I get my hands on him I'll try it. I just don't think that making a 1/1 chump blocker is what I want on T4. If it's aggro..I'll be dead by T5. If it's control...Thragtusks all day and Sorin's ultimate wouldn't help me that much against control because by T7 they'd have mana out the b-hole.
If I give my anthem... on T4...yeah okay maybe. I can see that helping out.
I'm just really frustrated. I don't know what to put in to win me games. It's like aggro is just auto lose every time and it pisses me off. I want creatures that can block profitably all the time. Blood Artist needs other cards around..Cartel Aristocrat needs other cards around..Gravecrawler needs Diregraf..Diregraf comes in tapped..Geralf's comes in tapped. It's like I honestly just have no options T1-3..
It's bothersome. I want things that can do stuff T1-3
well i took out blood artist since he is just awful draw when you are in a pinch, but then again i only run 4 sac outlets, actually i am pretty much anti-aggro because everything else i can race, my meta is actually pretty much esper naya and gw aggro, reanimators are starting to show up 2.
esper has an awful g1 against zombies, so the anti-aggro startegy dosent really hinder me on game 1, and midrange has a hard time dealing with all my removal.
well i took out blood artist since he is just awful draw when you are in a pinch, but then again i only run 4 sac outlets, actually i am pretty much anti-aggro because everything else i can race, my meta is actually pretty much esper naya and gw aggro, reanimators are starting to show up 2.
esper has an awful g1 against zombies, so the anti-aggro startegy dosent really hinder me on game 1, and midrange has a hard time dealing with all my removal.
slots with multiple cards i havent decided yet and im testing out.
hmm...my local meta consists of rogue aggro, rogue decks, 1 esper control, 1 bant control, 1 jund midrange, 1 jund aggro, 1 mono white aggro with a T4 kill..T1 Champion of Parish...T2 Gather the Townsfolk, swing for 3, T3 Silverblade paladin + Champion swing for 8, T4 more humans swing for lethal
But I don't want to just counter my meta...I want to have a legitimate deck.
I think my deck is too oriented on sacrificing...OR I need removal.
Bah..taking out Blood Artist sends me down so many roads. I'll theory for the next week. See yall till I get an answer.
I took this to the PTQ in Brooklyn. About 230 people, I came in 22nd place (6-2) with eight rounds of swiss. My losses were to RG Aggro and Bant Aggro (Cloudfin Raptor, Delver, lots of tempo).
My all-stars were Blood Artist and the one Mark of Mutiny. Card won me two games by itself. Really happy with the results.
I had a rough time against the RG Aggro - I had poor hands, had to mull to 5, kept a hand with 2 Nighthawks, which I figured would let me stall for some time, but it was just too fast. I probably sideboarded wrong - I took out my tragic slips for the pillars, but I probably should have kept the slips and took out my messengers for the pillars.
The Bant Aggro was nuts. It seemed like a homebrew - really wasn't expecting cards like spell rupture and rootborn defenses, had no prior experience against this deck. Everything I had on the field just kept returning with unsummon My SB was totally unprepared for this deck. Not really sure -how- to SB for it.
I took this to the PTQ in Brooklyn. About 230 people, I came in 22nd place (6-2) with eight rounds of swiss. My losses were to RG Aggro and Bant Aggro (Cloudfin Raptor, Delver, lots of tempo).
My all-stars were Blood Artist and the one Mark of Mutiny. Card won me two games by itself. Really happy with the results.
I had a rough time against the RG Aggro - I had poor hands, had to mull to 5, kept a hand with 2 Nighthawks, which I figured would let me stall for some time, but it was just too fast. I probably sideboarded wrong - I took out my tragic slips for the pillars, but I probably should have kept the slips and took out my messengers for the pillars.
The Bant Aggro was nuts. It seemed like a homebrew - really wasn't expecting cards like spell rupture and rootborn defenses, had no prior experience against this deck. Everything I had on the field just kept returning with unsummon My SB was totally unprepared for this deck. Not really sure -how- to SB for it.
PLEASE. Do a write up of every match. I'm really interested. Personally, i'd probably side out Gravecrawlers against RG aggro...we just get outclassed by their creatures and we can't race them...so Gravecrawler doesn't do anything here to be honest. I'd try siding the pillars for them. But thats just me.
How did the KOI play? Are they worth it?
How integral were the Vampire Nighthawks?
How would you feel about having Cartel Aristocrats/Bloodthrone Vamps in your deck?
PLEASE. Do a write up of every match. I'm really interested. Personally, i'd probably side out Gravecrawlers against RG aggro...we just get outclassed by their creatures and we can't race them...so Gravecrawler doesn't do anything here to be honest. I'd try siding the pillars for them. But thats just me.
How did the KOI play? Are they worth it?
How integral were the Vampire Nighthawks?
How would you feel about having Cartel Aristocrats/Bloodthrone Vamps in your deck?
It was a very long day and I don't remember much detaisl, so the report will be somewhat bare bones. Sorry. I'm going to another PTQ soon so I'll be sure to actually write what happened down right after so it's still fresh in my memory.
As for Knight of Infamy, I love him. He lets my 1 drops swing for 3, which might not seem like much but is actually very good. Lot of 3 toughness guys out there. He also just ignores many of the creatures that I normally have problems with - Centaur Healer, Reckoner, LS tokens, Rhox Faithmender, Smiter. Also he's a nice sac outlet for Aristocrat. I feel he's a much better two drop than Bloodthrone.
As for Vampire Nighthawk, I don't know what I would have done without him. There were some games where I was around 28 health from simply him, and he trades very well as he's one of the only few cards I have that can reliably deal with big threats like Smiter and that can actually block Resto Angel. And he just stalls aggro decks like a champ. He was really helping me against RG Aggro, but I just wasn't drawing any gas to back him up.
For Cartel Aristocrat, I don't see splashing white to justify the card. Bloodthrone is too cute. Blood Artist is great because it makes my attack steps so much in my advantage, and he can just end the game with Falkenrath out. But I've tested Bloodthrone and I just never had any success with it. I'd rather have KOI.
Again, the following "report" won't be very informative because my memory is ****ty, so I apologize.
Round 1: Naya Mid-range (2-0)
I usually consider Naya mid-range a pretty rough match up for me, but I steam-rolled it pretty fast on game 1. I just curved out beautifully - Zombie into Knight into messenger into Aristocrat. I won the die roll, so it was to be expected with the hand I kept. Game 2 I sided out my Blood Artists for four Appetite for Brains and the two tragic slips became Victim of Nights. I forget exactly what I had in hand, except that I had an Appetite for sure. On my turn 3, I appetite and see only a Thragtusk and a Conjurer's Closet. I take the Tusk, he plays the closet, I won right after. I sort of considered it a freebie, since keeping Closet against a fast deck like mine is very iffy.
Round 2: Bant Life Gain (2-0)
This match is more fuzzy to me than the rest. But it was very life gain heavy. Centuar Healers, Tusks, Restos, and Troistani. On game 2, I brought in all my Skullcracks. He played the Troistani, passed to me, and I kept two up for my skullcrack. He wasn't playing around it - went to resolve a Tusk, but I cracked him, bringing him down to ~5, and I just swung for the win next turn. Skullcrack was very good to me.
Round 3: 4-Color (2-0)
So this guy top 8'd the PTQ last week in Philadelphia, and he made note to mention it to me a few times. I was a little worried, this being my first PTQ and never really facing stiff competition before. I didn't really get to see the full extent of his deck because I beat him pretty quickly. I know he had Deadeye Navigator, and I brought in 4 Appetites once again and kept him from casting Tusk. Every time I brought in Appetite I was very happy with it.
Round 4: RG Aggro (0-2)
My first loss. Game 1 is more or less my fault, I kept a one lander, albeit with 3 one drops. I did not know what he was playing, but I was on the draw and figured with three one drops and a two drop and three drop it was a keep. Alas, it never works out that way. And since he was playing RG Aggro, he just ran me over.
Game 2, I had to mull to 5. Was not very happy with it. I ultimately kept a hand with 2 Nighthawks and a Knight of Infamy. The Nighthawks were pretty good, they kept me alive a bit longer. But Ghor-Clan Rampager just finished me off.
Round 5: Bant Aggro (0-2)
This was over in a few minutes. Was pretty brutal. Cloudfin Raptor easily became a 3 power creature, swinging in the air. My Nighthawks could not stick to stabilize, he just had every answer you could think of. The real finishing moment came when he Call of Conclaved. I was not playing around Rootborn Defenses, and he had two 3/3s that were indestructible. Really tough match, not sure how I could have sideboarded better since my SB wasn't really ready for a match like that.
Round 6: Junk Rites (2-1)
Game 1 I beat him pretty quickly. I saw the colors for Rites, and a Thragtusk, but I Mark'd the Thragtusk and swung for the win. I wasn't 100% positive he was playing Rites, since I did not see anything besides Tusk, so I sided in the 4 Appetites and the 1 Rise from the Grave, just in case. Game 2, he played lots of Lingering Souls, but still no mulch or grizzly salvage, so after game 2 I figured he was a tokens deck. Two games without a single unburial rites, mulch or salvage was unlikely. I took the Rise from the Grave out and put the two Illnesses in. Then I saw the mulches. But it was too little, too late - my Aristocrat just swung over his Thragtusk and I sacc'd my board with Blood Artist out to seal the deal.
Round 7: Selesnya Aggro? (2-1)
Not a deck I Was very familiar with. Champion, Smiter, Silverblade, and Sublime Angel (the exalted guy). Game 1 he actually beat me with Smiter + Rancor + Silverblade. I made a mistake in that I marked his Smiter, hoping to get a bunch of damage in quick (Which it did), but if I had waited a turn, I could have marked his Angel and likely won with the exalted triggers. But, I was not expecting that card.
This is where my Knight of Infamy really shined, however. He just kept Loxodon Smiter and Champion at bay while my Nighthawks went over his board and gave me life every turn. It got pretty close on game 3. My only out was drawing a 2nd red mana source to play my Hellrider and swing for the win. Aristocrat would not have done it by herself. He played that tree defender that allows you to swap your health total, but it had summoning sickness. If I didn't draw the 2nd red source, I was probably a goner. However, I top decked the dragonskull summit and played hte Hellrider. The triggers alone won the match.
Round 8: Jund Aggro (2-1)
Game 1 I mulled to 4. But it was a good 4 - two lands, NighthawIk and Aristocrat. I was actually able to recover and put some pressure on the board, but I was just too far behind. His Falkenraths just finished me off. Game 2 I was on the play and it was much better in my favor. I had a good starting hand (Gravecrawler, Knight, Hawk) and just won with Blood Artist before he was able to stabilize. Game 3 was scary though. I was on the draw against a deck that was just as fast if not faster than mine. However he did not draw any red lands. I played my Blood Artist and Aristocrat, with a knight and gravecrawler out. He played his own Falkenrath off of a Burning Tree Emissary, which was pretty funny, since he had yet to draw a red land. Eventually he was able to resolve a Olivia, and I got him down to 1 life. I passed to him, expecting the finishing move, but he didn't have anything in hand. He stole my Blood Artist, hoping to get some value out of it, but next turn I searing speared him. THis forced him to sac his entire field to stay alive, leaving only his tapped down Aristocrat, but I Just swung in against an empty field and won.
I was really excited about using Illness, I wanted to see it in action, but I Just never got the chance. But I really like the 3 skullcrack and 4 appetites, and I'm gonna continue trying out Illness since it seems LS is on the rise again. I still need to solve my issues against RG Aggro and tempo decks.
As an aside, there was only one deck I played today that ran Pillars - the RG Aggro, and it was all SB. So if Zombies is gonna make a come back, it's now. THe reason I stopped playing it for a while is because Pillar just made it very difficult to run efficiently.
It was a very long day and I don't remember much detaisl, so the report will be somewhat bare bones. Sorry. I'm going to another PTQ soon so I'll be sure to actually write what happened down right after so it's still fresh in my memory.
As for Knight of Infamy, I love him. He lets my 1 drops swing for 3, which might not seem like much but is actually very good. Lot of 3 toughness guys out there. He also just ignores many of the creatures that I normally have problems with - Centaur Healer, Reckoner, LS tokens, Rhox Faithmender, Smiter. Also he's a nice sac outlet for Aristocrat. I feel he's a much better two drop than Bloodthrone.
As for Vampire Nighthawk, I don't know what I would have done without him. There were some games where I was around 28 health from simply him, and he trades very well as he's one of the only few cards I have that can reliably deal with big threats like Smiter and that can actually block Resto Angel. And he just stalls aggro decks like a champ. He was really helping me against RG Aggro, but I just wasn't drawing any gas to back him up.
For Cartel Aristocrat, I don't see splashing white to justify the card. Bloodthrone is too cute. Blood Artist is great because it makes my attack steps so much in my advantage, and he can just end the game with Falkenrath out. But I've tested Bloodthrone and I just never had any success with it. I'd rather have KOI.
Again, the following "report" won't be very informative because my memory is ****ty, so I apologize.
Round 1: Naya Mid-range (2-0)
I usually consider Naya mid-range a pretty rough match up for me, but I steam-rolled it pretty fast on game 1. I just curved out beautifully - Zombie into Knight into messenger into Aristocrat. I won the die roll, so it was to be expected with the hand I kept. Game 2 I sided out my Blood Artists for four Appetite for Brains and the two tragic slips became Victim of Nights. I forget exactly what I had in hand, except that I had an Appetite for sure. On my turn 3, I appetite and see only a Thragtusk and a Conjurer's Closet. I take the Tusk, he plays the closet, I won right after. I sort of considered it a freebie, since keeping Closet against a fast deck like mine is very iffy.
Round 2: Bant Life Gain (2-0)
This match is more fuzzy to me than the rest. But it was very life gain heavy. Centuar Healers, Tusks, Restos, and Troistani. On game 2, I brought in all my Skullcracks. He played the Troistani, passed to me, and I kept two up for my skullcrack. He wasn't playing around it - went to resolve a Tusk, but I cracked him, bringing him down to ~5, and I just swung for the win next turn. Skullcrack was very good to me.
Round 3: 4-Color (2-0)
So this guy top 8'd the PTQ last week in Philadelphia, and he made note to mention it to me a few times. I was a little worried, this being my first PTQ and never really facing stiff competition before. I didn't really get to see the full extent of his deck because I beat him pretty quickly. I know he had Deadeye Navigator, and I brought in 4 Appetites once again and kept him from casting Tusk. Every time I brought in Appetite I was very happy with it.
Round 4: RG Aggro (0-2)
My first loss. Game 1 is more or less my fault, I kept a one lander, albeit with 3 one drops. I did not know what he was playing, but I was on the draw and figured with three one drops and a two drop and three drop it was a keep. Alas, it never works out that way. And since he was playing RG Aggro, he just ran me over.
Game 2, I had to mull to 5. Was not very happy with it. I ultimately kept a hand with 2 Nighthawks and a Knight of Infamy. The Nighthawks were pretty good, they kept me alive a bit longer. But Ghor-Clan Rampager just finished me off.
Round 5: Bant Aggro (0-2)
This was over in a few minutes. Was pretty brutal. Cloudfin Raptor easily became a 3 power creature, swinging in the air. My Nighthawks could not stick to stabilize, he just had every answer you could think of. The real finishing moment came when he Call of Conclaved. I was not playing around Rootborn Defenses, and he had two 3/3s that were indestructible. Really tough match, not sure how I could have sideboarded better since my SB wasn't really ready for a match like that.
Round 6: Junk Rites (2-1)
Game 1 I beat him pretty quickly. I saw the colors for Rites, and a Thragtusk, but I Mark'd the Thragtusk and swung for the win. I wasn't 100% positive he was playing Rites, since I did not see anything besides Tusk, so I sided in the 4 Appetites and the 1 Rise from the Grave, just in case. Game 2, he played lots of Lingering Souls, but still no mulch or grizzly salvage, so after game 2 I figured he was a tokens deck. Two games without a single unburial rites, mulch or salvage was unlikely. I took the Rise from the Grave out and put the two Illnesses in. Then I saw the mulches. But it was too little, too late - my Aristocrat just swung over his Thragtusk and I sacc'd my board with Blood Artist out to seal the deal.
Round 7: Selesnya Aggro? (2-1)
Not a deck I Was very familiar with. Champion, Smiter, Silverblade, and Sublime Angel (the exalted guy). Game 1 he actually beat me with Smiter + Rancor + Silverblade. I made a mistake in that I marked his Smiter, hoping to get a bunch of damage in quick (Which it did), but if I had waited a turn, I could have marked his Angel and likely won with the exalted triggers. But, I was not expecting that card.
This is where my Knight of Infamy really shined, however. He just kept Loxodon Smiter and Champion at bay while my Nighthawks went over his board and gave me life every turn. It got pretty close on game 3. My only out was drawing a 2nd red mana source to play my Hellrider and swing for the win. Aristocrat would not have done it by herself. He played that tree defender that allows you to swap your health total, but it had summoning sickness. If I didn't draw the 2nd red source, I was probably a goner. However, I top decked the dragonskull summit and played hte Hellrider. The triggers alone won the match.
Round 8: Jund Aggro (2-1)
Game 1 I mulled to 4. But it was a good 4 - two lands, NighthawIk and Aristocrat. I was actually able to recover and put some pressure on the board, but I was just too far behind. His Falkenraths just finished me off. Game 2 I was on the play and it was much better in my favor. I had a good starting hand (Gravecrawler, Knight, Hawk) and just won with Blood Artist before he was able to stabilize. Game 3 was scary though. I was on the draw against a deck that was just as fast if not faster than mine. However he did not draw any red lands. I played my Blood Artist and Aristocrat, with a knight and gravecrawler out. He played his own Falkenrath off of a Burning Tree Emissary, which was pretty funny, since he had yet to draw a red land. Eventually he was able to resolve a Olivia, and I got him down to 1 life. I passed to him, expecting the finishing move, but he didn't have anything in hand. He stole my Blood Artist, hoping to get some value out of it, but next turn I searing speared him. THis forced him to sac his entire field to stay alive, leaving only his tapped down Aristocrat, but I Just swung in against an empty field and won.
I was really excited about using Illness, I wanted to see it in action, but I Just never got the chance. But I really like the 3 skullcrack and 4 appetites, and I'm gonna continue trying out Illness since it seems LS is on the rise again. I still need to solve my issues against RG Aggro and tempo decks.
Thank you so much for the write up.
I am super surprised you beat Jund Aggro. I got manhandled by it. 0-2'd. of course he had a 3 land hand with 1 root, 1 abrupt decay, and 2 dreg manglers.
If we look at your losses...you lost against any aggro not based in white. KOI seems to be saving you against White based aggro. I'd be interested in seeing that bant list...any way you could link me to a results page?
Honestly, the only ideas I have at winning against non-based aggro is to either run Volcanic Strength or running more removal. 5 Removal is pretty skimpy and thats including Searing Spear. I suggest running more Removal. I'm not sure how effective Illness in the Ranks will be tbh. I haven't heard of very prominent token decks. I'd take them out for more removal. Rise From The Grave seems too cute. I'd replace it with removal or another mark of mutiny. I'd throw in a one of Rakdos's Return into the SB.
As an aside, there was only one deck I played today that ran Pillars - the RG Aggro, and it was all SB. So if Zombies is gonna make a come back, it's now. THe reason I stopped playing it for a while is because Pillar just made it very difficult to run efficiently.
I agree. Zombies is going to come back now if ever.
Personally... I don't know what to do against aggro. I'm just stuffing more removal in main board. Probably Searing Spear and Mizzium Mortars. That way I can hit big guys and burn against control at cheap costs.
My game plan against aggro is to get Blood Artist, Lingering Souls, and Cartel Aristocrat. But it seems to not be enough. UGH I DONT KNOW. How can I ensure I survive against aggro to get stabilized??
Just took 1st at SCG Invitational. Sam Black's new brew. The SCG Team was at this PTQ (i saw two SCG guys) running this same deck, and quite a few other decks were running LS as well. I sat next to the guy playing it in round 8.
In my testing, I've found that LS is my biggest threat. In terms of the game game clock, it sets me back TREMENDOUSLY and makes my Falkenrath look like garbage. So having a truly reliable and surprising way of dealing with LS is great. Flames of the Fire Brand costs too much and Bonfire has always been unreliable for me.
As for the Bant list, I'm not sure where to find it. I think it was more of a homebrew.
Volcanic Strength is definitely interesting and I might consider it. As for Rakdos Return, with only 23 lands, it's not very good. Rakdos Return for 2 isn't all that exciting. Same reason why I might just drop Thundermaw, pretty expensive.
As for your last point, I'm trying to figure it out myself. RG Aggro steamrolled me. I beat Jund Aggro, but it's no where near as fast as RG Aggro or Naya Blitz/Naya Humans. I had the good fortune of facing neither of those decks, and I can't imagine my matchup is all that great against them, either. Zombies is just no longer the fast deck of the format. That's why I run 4 Vampires main.
Just took 1st at SCG Invitational. Sam Black's new brew. The SCG Team was at this PTQ (i saw two SCG guys) running this same deck, and quite a few other decks were running LS as well. I sat next to the guy playing it in round 8.
In my testing, I've found that LS is my biggest threat. In terms of the game game clock, it sets me back TREMENDOUSLY and makes my Falkenrath look like garbage. So having a truly reliable and surprising way of dealing with LS is great. Flames of the Fire Brand costs too much and Bonfire has always been unreliable for me.
As for the Bant list, I'm not sure where to find it. I think it was more of a homebrew.
Volcanic Strength is definitely interesting and I might consider it. As for Rakdos Return, with only 23 lands, it's not very good. Rakdos Return for 2 isn't all that exciting. Same reason why I might just drop Thundermaw, pretty expensive.
As for your last point, I'm trying to figure it out myself. RG Aggro steamrolled me. I beat Jund Aggro, but it's no where near as fast as RG Aggro or Naya Blitz/Naya Humans. I had the good fortune of facing neither of those decks, and I can't imagine my matchup is all that great against them, either. Zombies is just no longer the fast deck of the format. That's why I run 4 Vampires main.
Defenitley agree that we should be running night of infamy md. Nighthawk needs to be in the 75. As for fast aggro I recommend gloom surgeon. Is pretty sweet against slot of 2 drops.
Am looking forward to testing against junk rites. Am hoping zombies is a good deck against it!
Im thinking Faith's Shield as a catch all.
Azorius Arrester.
Divine Favor.
I honestly feel like this deck is just organically turning into Aristocrats.
Zombies has the added benefit of being able to setup multiple sacrifices due to recurring Gravecrawlers...but suffers worse from early aggro with a lack of blockers T1 to T3.
T2 we have the options of Cartel Aristocrat, Diregraf Ghoul, and Blood Artist as blockers. We don't want to use Blood Artist as a blocker obviously.
T2 we sac Gravecrawler to Cartel Aristocrat to block. While our aggro enemy will have 3 guys to plow through. Cartel blocks one. T3 we can cast Geralf's(which wants to be sacc'ed to Cartel) and Lingering Souls. Assuming we have either of those...T3 Our opponent will have Silverblade or Boros Reckoner. Lingering Souls is preferable to Geralf's for early aggro. It gives us something to sacrifice and gives us a blocker. So we block whatever can be killed with Cartel after we sac a soul. Then the leftover soul chump blocks some poor guy.
T4, we can play geralf's and recast a gravecrawler. Which gives us more things to sac...but only one blocker.
T4, we can play Falkenrath Aristocrat...which doesn't really help anything unless we're trying to race, since we only have a Cartel to sac for it.
T4, we can flashback lingering souls and play a blood artist. This is probably the best option we can hope for against aggro T4. Resets us back to T3 with Lifegain.
After T4, we can usually stabilize but up to that point...we can be taking around 10-14 damage if we aren't careful.
So why not use Doomed Traveler? We get a free sac and then an immediate creature. We don't get endless value like we would from Gravecrawler...but I think it deserves a spot over Diregraf ghoul. It reduces our zombie count...but the only time we want Diregraf is to recast Gravecrawler...the only time we want gravecrawler is to create fodder for Cartel and Falkenrath....which won't come into play till after T4 and on. Otherwise...WE NEED early blockers since Ghor Clan Rampager is going to pump into lethal(especially if we run shock lands).
Doomed Traveler isn't as good in the long game(arguably, since he does give Falkenrath a +1/+1), but gives us more options early on.
Gravecrawler is better for the late game. He can be early pressure...but we want to sac him to Cartel early. But he comes back later whereas Doomed doesn't.
What if we throw in Skirsdag High Priest? It can gives us a 5/5 blocker by T3 if we run Doomed Traveler. T1, Doomed. T2, Cartel. T3, Skirsdag...sac Doomed and tap Cartel+Soul token from Doomed= 5/5 Flyer.
Why do we run Geralf's? It's good damage, wants to be sac'ed, recurs Gravecrawler. This card honestly isn't a T3 play in our deck! We're more worried about gaining board presence with good blockers early and then sacrificing them all for value and shooting for damage right around T4-T6.
Would Boros Reckoner be better? Damn good blocker. 2 for 1's. Shenanigans with Harvest Pyre, Blasphemous Act...etc..
Can end game T4 with Blasphemous Act. Shuts down early aggro. Doesn't really want to be sacrificed.
So the end result is...Splash red into BW Zombies and you slowly turn into The Aristocrats.
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4x Gravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
3x Blood Artist
4x Bloodthrone Vampire
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Restoration Angel
INSTANTS
3x Tragic Slip
3x Orzhov Charm
2x Faith's Reward
3x Lingering Souls
LANDS
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Orzhov Guildgate
1x Plains
8x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Appetite for Brains
3x Cremate
2x Duress
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Rhox Faithmender
2x Oblivion ring
2x Obzedat, Ghost Council
Several changes I have made recently from the way I was running this when GC first dropped. First, I have moved Obzedat, Ghost Council to the SB. I was having to side it out a lot at the KC SCG due to all the fast decks I was matched up against. I feel its better against control and Mid-Range. Also, the reason I have decided to add Rhox Faithmender to the SB for those matches against Blitz style decks. Another "big" change I made for KC was dropping Cartel Aristocrat in favor of Bloodthrone Vampire. I LOVED this card. It was so bursty that it gave opponents fits when I was able to cast Lingering Souls the next turn and swing with a 5/5 or be able to sit behind a potential wall of blockers and kill their main threat. The other recent addition I am testing is Faith's Reward. I find my self just shy of a full sac kill T5 and then they are able to comeback and drop Thragtusk or Resto their already in play Thrag, which gave me fits all day. Saw WAY too many Tusk and Huntmaters all day. So, I am trying this out to try and give the deck a little more finishing punch. The idea is to EOT get all your sac trigger's then cast Faith's Reward before they can gain enough life to stabilize. The other bonus for Faith's Reward is that it gets around sevearl GY hate mechanins as it does not "Target". One other MD addition is Blind Obedience. Seems that we have a few too many threats that hit the field tapped and we can sometimes get overrun by faster decks that can drop blockers and or hasty solutions. This will hopefully even the playing field allowing us to get attacks through getting that extra bit of combat damage we so desperately need before we can sac out. Plus late game the extort shenanigans with Gravecrawler recast can get a little out of control. Trust me, I have sat back behind a Bloodthrone Vampire, Diregraf Ghoul and a pair of Crawlers with BO out and Extorted out a win over a few turns where my opponent was not able to swing through my 5/5 Vamp for any kind of major damage.
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
i have the hardest time beating multiple hunt masters resto angels and thragtusk. i can beat any two of the three card, any three about half the time, and four very seldom and never five. Thank god there is only one naya mid range deck at my lgs and he doesn't always play. if anybody is interested i can post a list.
The Soul of the World has returned.
Currently playing (when I can): Legacy/Modern Combo Elves & Burn and Pauper Stompy & Goblins.
Level 1 DCI Judge
Economist & College Professor
Is lilliana supposed to stay in after SB? My mainboard removal is 1 dreabore, 4 victim of night and 2 bonfires. Maybe I should add a slip into the mix?
If your running a version that uses W then you have access to Blind Obedience and Rhox Faithmender. R has Rolling Temblor and Bonfire of the Damned. B always has Mutilate and Vampire Nighthawk to fall back on. Mainly its about whether you want to go with life gain, sweeps or tapdown.
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
3 Rakdos Cackler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Rakdos, Lord of Riots
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Dreadbore
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Dead Weight
3 Victim of Night
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
12 Swamp
1 Demonic Rising
1 Dead Weight
1 Tragic Slip
3 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Gloom Surgeon
4 Cremate
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Rise From the Grave
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Gravecrawler
3x Blood Artist
4x Bloodthrone Vampire
4x Geralf's Messenger
3x Falkenrath Aristocrat
2x Olivia Voldaren
3x Tragic Slip
3x Searing Spear
4x Pillar of Flame
2x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Blood Crypt
4x Dragonskull Summit
11x Swamp
Im still working on the Sideboard
I agree that 4 Lilliana may be to much, I will probably drop that number down to 3. I get that esper is underplayed, but I think Lilli is very good in g1 verse almost any matchup.
Since I am playing in Atlanta this weekend, I expect to see a lot of aggro and junk. I will probably mainboard more tragic slips.
I have a jund zombies list that has done well for me, Lotleth troll really helps against blitz strategies, but sometimes the manabase cause really awkward hands.
Deck
Creatures:28
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gloom Surgeon
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Geralfs Messenger
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
Instants:5
2 Tragic Slip (+1,-1)
2 Victim of night // Searing Spear // Mizzium Mortars
Sorcery:5
3 Dreadbore(+1,-1)
2 Sign in blood // Searing Spear
Land:23
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskill Summit
3 Cavern of Souls
10 Swamp
Sideboard:
2 Mark of Mutiny
2 Appetite for Brains // Thundermaw Hellkite // Hellrider
2 Duress
3 cremate // rakdos charm
3 Underworld Connections
3 Slaughter Games
i cant decide on some of the cards so i put some of the variations ive tried... what do you guys think?? ( the dreadbore and tragic slip numbers i havent decided yet)
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Blood Artist
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Restoration Angel
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Zealous Conscripts
3 Tragic Slip
2 Lingering Souls
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Godless Shrine
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
3 Swamps
1 Plains
Any comments are welcome. SB is not posted because my lgs meta is going to very different yours. I feel like i have a chance to win every game with this deck. My biggest problem is getting spammed by thragtusks and resto angles. I feel like game one i am a dog to reanimator, but that is what my sideboard is tuned for. No counter spells in my meta so no caverns.
i really like your deck, but id take out either the Zealous Conscripts or the Restoration Angel for a couple of sorin, he can either win you the game with the emblem or you can stall with tokens, + works pretty well with blood artists and aristocrats
but im not a big fan of conscripts for some reason i like to top my curve at 4
i just noticed conscripts is your only threaten effect, so maybe some mark of mutiny?
to be honest i havent tested them properly yet, i just expect more flexibility from a 5 mana drop, idk it just seems thundermaw hellkite, while being worse against reanimator (he is still pretty useful as he can race them) he is just nuts against decks running 4 copies of lingering souls which sometimes is a high % of my meta, and against everything else he still is a 5/5 for 5 with haste and evasion and he taps flyiers as he enters so he actually makes good combo with restoration angel and having just typed that i realized why zealous conscripts is good on BWR zombies lol, GOD IM HIGH haha, so those are my 2 cents many of my card choices are based on my meta and my playstyle so maybe zealous conscripts is a better card in your hands than in mine, so its all good either way... if it aint broke why fix it
also some people are having great success with blind obedience, while entering tapped dosent hurt some decks, it also has extort if the game stalls
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Blood Artist
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Zealous Conscripts
Planeswalkers:
1 Liliana of the Veil
Spells:
4 Lingering Souls
2 Orzhov Charm
1 Dreadbore
2 Tragic Slip
3 Mark of Mutiny
4 Dragonskull
4 Blood Crypt
4 isolated Chapel
2 Orzhov Guildgates
5 Swamps
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Appetite For Brains
2 Blind Obedience
1 Mark of Mutiny
2-1 against Jund Midrange all games were close. I pulled wins out of my buttocks by pulling a red source for Mark of Mutiny to take his Huntmaster and swing/sac for game. Lost a game because he just kept me locked down and Huntmaster flipped frequently. Last game went to turns and on T4 I sac'd everything I had to ping Blood Artist for 5.
0-2 against Mono Green beatdown. Too many strangleroot geists. She had Abrupt Decay to take out my blockers to support her 2 strangleroots. I really don't know how to deal with Aggro right now and my sideboard hasn't seen enough action. Im thinking about throwing in Pillar of Flame/Searing Spear/etc.. into the SB.
We played a funsies game after that with all our stuff sided in against each other. I wont he first game and we didn't get to finish the second because pairings were up but it looked like she was gong to take it.
2-1 against BW ramp. Its really a bad deck and I won the first game and I erroneously kept a bad hand 2nd game and on T4/5 he had Crypt Ghast and Bloodgift demons out while I had no removal and no creatures since he got rid of them. He kept a STUPID bad hand G3 with 1 land, 2 Unhallowed Summonings, 1 Crypt Ghast, 3 Ultimate Prices.
2-0 Played a bad Green ramp deck.
2-0 I raced a BR deck with Zombie nut draws backed with Blood Artist and I won as he got stuck on 3 or 4 mana with no double red so no Hellrider. He got it out once but I killed it.
Overall thoughts: Threaten effects are the way to go. I don't think Zealous Conscripts should be in the main. I won 3 of my games last night from clutch Threaten effects, 1 against Jund Midrange, 2 against BR Aggro. Blind Obedience has blown every time...I'm thinking about taking it out of the side. I'm thinking O-Rings in the Side because Control is a pain with their forms of removal. Lingering Souls is usually sided out so I'm thinking a lower count on them. I'm considering Knight of Infamy for their pro-white to stem early white aggro. Vampire Nighthawk is too good...too good that I don't even get to play him..he gets removed immediately everytime I use him haha so I guess that's a good sign. Rakdos's Return is great against Control and Midrange...maybe a 1 of from now on though. I think the 1 Mark of Mutiny can come out of the side..its just not needed. Appetite is obviously good. Although it is hit and miss a lot. Mutilates...are meh..I side them in against aggro..and I haven't seen it shine too often. Thinking about Rhox Faithmenders instead of Mutilates. I played Gloom Surgeons against aggro but they got removed. I don't know if they are worth it. Orzhov Charm...isn't very good removal..Considering taking out an OC for a Tragic Slip.
Diregraf ghoul is meh. It is ONLY good when we have Gravecrawler AND Cartel Aristocrat..the sac' package. It almost seems like a combo deck and I hate that. I'm going to take one out.
Overall Tweaks?:
Mainboard:
-2 Zealous Conscripts
-1 Diregraf Ghoul
-1 Lingering Souls
-1 Orzhov Charm
+1 Ultimate Price
+1 Tragic Slip
+3 Hellrider
Hellrider eats people alive. Plus he synergizes well with Lingering Souls. I want more removal so Ultimate Price was thrown in.
Sideboard:
-2 Blind..its just not performing well enough, I'd rather have instant removal to deal with hasty threats
-1 Mark of Mutiny..we have enough threaten effect
-1 Rakdos's Return..we don't truly have the mana to support this card and one of seems fine.
+3 Knight of Infamy...manhandles white
+1 Duress...hits what we want out of control to replace Rakdos's Return
I'm torn on how many Gloom Surgeons and Mutilates to run. I'll keep them as they are to get more play time with them. Suggestions on how many to run would be appreciated.
I want to try out throwing in Thundermaws like this guy. I just don't know if its really worth it or if I want removal.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1102773
Suggestions on:
Mutilate
Gloom Surgeon
My main goal is to keep aggro from doing damage to me turns 2-3. Nighthawk, Gloom, Cartel...just doesn't appear enough. Help against aggro!!
Great list dude
i can vouch for gloom surgeon he is just nuts against aggro and decks with little removal, that being said i run 3 gloom and 4 KOI maindeck that extra +1+1 from exalted makes gloom pretty scary againts GW aggro (most dominant aggro in mi meta)
If you are runing 4 blood artists then mutilate is a good choice, killing wave also makes for good removal, since you could keep 1 diregraf or whatever creature is non recurring and just bounce messengers and gravecrawlers, falkenrath aristocrat has no way around mutilate, so be prepared to lose her sometimes.
my current maideck looks alot like peoples deck g2 vs aggro i run 3 nighthawks 4 KOI and 3 surgeons as well as 7 removal spells, i dont have many problems with aggro while still doing pretty good game 1 vs esper and midrange.
reanimator is a little hard, but after sideboard i usually have the advantage.
I wouldnt put hellrider and messenger togather in a 3 color deck, will lead to mana proplems IMHO Instead i would recomend you put some Sorin, Lord of Innistrad as he fits the curve and can be very relevant in every matchup if used correctly.
i would also consider olivia voldaren, if you are runing some nighthawks and gloom surgeons you can keep things going much longer than a normal zombie deck, she pretty much is an answer or lose threat to most aggro decks.
I read your list again and i noticed how many sac outlets you have, and i must insist you try sorin its easier on your mana and gives you things to sac or a little damage boost after a threaten effect to end the game.
It sounds like you're really anti aggro. Could you post your list?
Hellrider does sound like he'd be tough on the mana..but BR Zombies got away with it with only 10ish sources of Red. Which is what I will run. Throw in Rakdos GG's instead of Orzhov. Or just straight mountains.
If it doesn't work out then I'll take him out but I think its worth a shot.
Sorin seems clunky...but if I get my hands on him I'll try it. I just don't think that making a 1/1 chump blocker is what I want on T4. If it's aggro..I'll be dead by T5. If it's control...Thragtusks all day and Sorin's ultimate wouldn't help me that much against control because by T7 they'd have mana out the b-hole.
If I give my anthem... on T4...yeah okay maybe. I can see that helping out.
I'm just really frustrated. I don't know what to put in to win me games. It's like aggro is just auto lose every time and it pisses me off. I want creatures that can block profitably all the time. Blood Artist needs other cards around..Cartel Aristocrat needs other cards around..Gravecrawler needs Diregraf..Diregraf comes in tapped..Geralf's comes in tapped. It's like I honestly just have no options T1-3..
It's bothersome. I want things that can do stuff T1-3
well i took out blood artist since he is just awful draw when you are in a pinch, but then again i only run 4 sac outlets, actually i am pretty much anti-aggro because everything else i can race, my meta is actually pretty much esper naya and gw aggro, reanimators are starting to show up 2.
esper has an awful g1 against zombies, so the anti-aggro startegy dosent really hinder me on game 1, and midrange has a hard time dealing with all my removal.
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gloom Surgeon
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Geralfs Messenger
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Tragic Slip (+1,-1)
2 Victim of night // Searing Spear // Mizzium Mortars
Sorcery:5
3 Dreadbore(+1,-1)
2 Sign in blood // Searing Spear
Land:23
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskill Summit
3 Cavern of Souls
10 Swamp
2 Mark of Mutiny
2 Appetite for Brains // Thundermaw Hellkite // Hellrider
2 Duress
3 cremate // rakdos charm
3 Underworld Connections
3 Slaughter Games
slots with multiple cards i havent decided yet and im testing out.
hmm...my local meta consists of rogue aggro, rogue decks, 1 esper control, 1 bant control, 1 jund midrange, 1 jund aggro, 1 mono white aggro with a T4 kill..T1 Champion of Parish...T2 Gather the Townsfolk, swing for 3, T3 Silverblade paladin + Champion swing for 8, T4 more humans swing for lethal
But I don't want to just counter my meta...I want to have a legitimate deck.
I think my deck is too oriented on sacrificing...OR I need removal.
Bah..taking out Blood Artist sends me down so many roads. I'll theory for the next week. See yall till I get an answer.
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Gravecrawler
4 Blood Artist
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Hellrider
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Searing Spear
2 Tragic Slip
1 Mark of Mutiny
9 Swamp
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Appetite for Brains
3 Pillar of Flames
2 Illness in the Ranks
1 Rise from the Grave
3 Skullcrack
2 Victim of Night
My all-stars were Blood Artist and the one Mark of Mutiny. Card won me two games by itself. Really happy with the results.
I had a rough time against the RG Aggro - I had poor hands, had to mull to 5, kept a hand with 2 Nighthawks, which I figured would let me stall for some time, but it was just too fast. I probably sideboarded wrong - I took out my tragic slips for the pillars, but I probably should have kept the slips and took out my messengers for the pillars.
The Bant Aggro was nuts. It seemed like a homebrew - really wasn't expecting cards like spell rupture and rootborn defenses, had no prior experience against this deck. Everything I had on the field just kept returning with unsummon My SB was totally unprepared for this deck. Not really sure -how- to SB for it.
PLEASE. Do a write up of every match. I'm really interested. Personally, i'd probably side out Gravecrawlers against RG aggro...we just get outclassed by their creatures and we can't race them...so Gravecrawler doesn't do anything here to be honest. I'd try siding the pillars for them. But thats just me.
How did the KOI play? Are they worth it?
How integral were the Vampire Nighthawks?
How would you feel about having Cartel Aristocrats/Bloodthrone Vamps in your deck?
It was a very long day and I don't remember much detaisl, so the report will be somewhat bare bones. Sorry. I'm going to another PTQ soon so I'll be sure to actually write what happened down right after so it's still fresh in my memory.
As for Knight of Infamy, I love him. He lets my 1 drops swing for 3, which might not seem like much but is actually very good. Lot of 3 toughness guys out there. He also just ignores many of the creatures that I normally have problems with - Centaur Healer, Reckoner, LS tokens, Rhox Faithmender, Smiter. Also he's a nice sac outlet for Aristocrat. I feel he's a much better two drop than Bloodthrone.
As for Vampire Nighthawk, I don't know what I would have done without him. There were some games where I was around 28 health from simply him, and he trades very well as he's one of the only few cards I have that can reliably deal with big threats like Smiter and that can actually block Resto Angel. And he just stalls aggro decks like a champ. He was really helping me against RG Aggro, but I just wasn't drawing any gas to back him up.
For Cartel Aristocrat, I don't see splashing white to justify the card. Bloodthrone is too cute. Blood Artist is great because it makes my attack steps so much in my advantage, and he can just end the game with Falkenrath out. But I've tested Bloodthrone and I just never had any success with it. I'd rather have KOI.
Again, the following "report" won't be very informative because my memory is ****ty, so I apologize.
Round 1: Naya Mid-range (2-0)
I usually consider Naya mid-range a pretty rough match up for me, but I steam-rolled it pretty fast on game 1. I just curved out beautifully - Zombie into Knight into messenger into Aristocrat. I won the die roll, so it was to be expected with the hand I kept. Game 2 I sided out my Blood Artists for four Appetite for Brains and the two tragic slips became Victim of Nights. I forget exactly what I had in hand, except that I had an Appetite for sure. On my turn 3, I appetite and see only a Thragtusk and a Conjurer's Closet. I take the Tusk, he plays the closet, I won right after. I sort of considered it a freebie, since keeping Closet against a fast deck like mine is very iffy.
Round 2: Bant Life Gain (2-0)
This match is more fuzzy to me than the rest. But it was very life gain heavy. Centuar Healers, Tusks, Restos, and Troistani. On game 2, I brought in all my Skullcracks. He played the Troistani, passed to me, and I kept two up for my skullcrack. He wasn't playing around it - went to resolve a Tusk, but I cracked him, bringing him down to ~5, and I just swung for the win next turn. Skullcrack was very good to me.
Round 3: 4-Color (2-0)
So this guy top 8'd the PTQ last week in Philadelphia, and he made note to mention it to me a few times. I was a little worried, this being my first PTQ and never really facing stiff competition before. I didn't really get to see the full extent of his deck because I beat him pretty quickly. I know he had Deadeye Navigator, and I brought in 4 Appetites once again and kept him from casting Tusk. Every time I brought in Appetite I was very happy with it.
Round 4: RG Aggro (0-2)
My first loss. Game 1 is more or less my fault, I kept a one lander, albeit with 3 one drops. I did not know what he was playing, but I was on the draw and figured with three one drops and a two drop and three drop it was a keep. Alas, it never works out that way. And since he was playing RG Aggro, he just ran me over.
Game 2, I had to mull to 5. Was not very happy with it. I ultimately kept a hand with 2 Nighthawks and a Knight of Infamy. The Nighthawks were pretty good, they kept me alive a bit longer. But Ghor-Clan Rampager just finished me off.
Round 5: Bant Aggro (0-2)
This was over in a few minutes. Was pretty brutal. Cloudfin Raptor easily became a 3 power creature, swinging in the air. My Nighthawks could not stick to stabilize, he just had every answer you could think of. The real finishing moment came when he Call of Conclaved. I was not playing around Rootborn Defenses, and he had two 3/3s that were indestructible. Really tough match, not sure how I could have sideboarded better since my SB wasn't really ready for a match like that.
Round 6: Junk Rites (2-1)
Game 1 I beat him pretty quickly. I saw the colors for Rites, and a Thragtusk, but I Mark'd the Thragtusk and swung for the win. I wasn't 100% positive he was playing Rites, since I did not see anything besides Tusk, so I sided in the 4 Appetites and the 1 Rise from the Grave, just in case. Game 2, he played lots of Lingering Souls, but still no mulch or grizzly salvage, so after game 2 I figured he was a tokens deck. Two games without a single unburial rites, mulch or salvage was unlikely. I took the Rise from the Grave out and put the two Illnesses in. Then I saw the mulches. But it was too little, too late - my Aristocrat just swung over his Thragtusk and I sacc'd my board with Blood Artist out to seal the deal.
Round 7: Selesnya Aggro? (2-1)
Not a deck I Was very familiar with. Champion, Smiter, Silverblade, and Sublime Angel (the exalted guy). Game 1 he actually beat me with Smiter + Rancor + Silverblade. I made a mistake in that I marked his Smiter, hoping to get a bunch of damage in quick (Which it did), but if I had waited a turn, I could have marked his Angel and likely won with the exalted triggers. But, I was not expecting that card.
This is where my Knight of Infamy really shined, however. He just kept Loxodon Smiter and Champion at bay while my Nighthawks went over his board and gave me life every turn. It got pretty close on game 3. My only out was drawing a 2nd red mana source to play my Hellrider and swing for the win. Aristocrat would not have done it by herself. He played that tree defender that allows you to swap your health total, but it had summoning sickness. If I didn't draw the 2nd red source, I was probably a goner. However, I top decked the dragonskull summit and played hte Hellrider. The triggers alone won the match.
Round 8: Jund Aggro (2-1)
Game 1 I mulled to 4. But it was a good 4 - two lands, NighthawIk and Aristocrat. I was actually able to recover and put some pressure on the board, but I was just too far behind. His Falkenraths just finished me off. Game 2 I was on the play and it was much better in my favor. I had a good starting hand (Gravecrawler, Knight, Hawk) and just won with Blood Artist before he was able to stabilize. Game 3 was scary though. I was on the draw against a deck that was just as fast if not faster than mine. However he did not draw any red lands. I played my Blood Artist and Aristocrat, with a knight and gravecrawler out. He played his own Falkenrath off of a Burning Tree Emissary, which was pretty funny, since he had yet to draw a red land. Eventually he was able to resolve a Olivia, and I got him down to 1 life. I passed to him, expecting the finishing move, but he didn't have anything in hand. He stole my Blood Artist, hoping to get some value out of it, but next turn I searing speared him. THis forced him to sac his entire field to stay alive, leaving only his tapped down Aristocrat, but I Just swung in against an empty field and won.
I was really excited about using Illness, I wanted to see it in action, but I Just never got the chance. But I really like the 3 skullcrack and 4 appetites, and I'm gonna continue trying out Illness since it seems LS is on the rise again. I still need to solve my issues against RG Aggro and tempo decks.
Thank you so much for the write up.
I am super surprised you beat Jund Aggro. I got manhandled by it. 0-2'd. of course he had a 3 land hand with 1 root, 1 abrupt decay, and 2 dreg manglers.
If we look at your losses...you lost against any aggro not based in white. KOI seems to be saving you against White based aggro. I'd be interested in seeing that bant list...any way you could link me to a results page?
Honestly, the only ideas I have at winning against non-based aggro is to either run Volcanic Strength or running more removal. 5 Removal is pretty skimpy and thats including Searing Spear. I suggest running more Removal. I'm not sure how effective Illness in the Ranks will be tbh. I haven't heard of very prominent token decks. I'd take them out for more removal. Rise From The Grave seems too cute. I'd replace it with removal or another mark of mutiny. I'd throw in a one of Rakdos's Return into the SB.
I agree. Zombies is going to come back now if ever.
Personally... I don't know what to do against aggro. I'm just stuffing more removal in main board. Probably Searing Spear and Mizzium Mortars. That way I can hit big guys and burn against control at cheap costs.
My game plan against aggro is to get Blood Artist, Lingering Souls, and Cartel Aristocrat. But it seems to not be enough. UGH I DONT KNOW. How can I ensure I survive against aggro to get stabilized??
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_the_aristocrats_act_.html
Just took 1st at SCG Invitational. Sam Black's new brew. The SCG Team was at this PTQ (i saw two SCG guys) running this same deck, and quite a few other decks were running LS as well. I sat next to the guy playing it in round 8.
In my testing, I've found that LS is my biggest threat. In terms of the game game clock, it sets me back TREMENDOUSLY and makes my Falkenrath look like garbage. So having a truly reliable and surprising way of dealing with LS is great. Flames of the Fire Brand costs too much and Bonfire has always been unreliable for me.
As for the Bant list, I'm not sure where to find it. I think it was more of a homebrew.
Volcanic Strength is definitely interesting and I might consider it. As for Rakdos Return, with only 23 lands, it's not very good. Rakdos Return for 2 isn't all that exciting. Same reason why I might just drop Thundermaw, pretty expensive.
As for your last point, I'm trying to figure it out myself. RG Aggro steamrolled me. I beat Jund Aggro, but it's no where near as fast as RG Aggro or Naya Blitz/Naya Humans. I had the good fortune of facing neither of those decks, and I can't imagine my matchup is all that great against them, either. Zombies is just no longer the fast deck of the format. That's why I run 4 Vampires main.
Im thinking Faith's Shield as a catch all.
Azorius Arrester.
Divine Favor.
Zombies has the added benefit of being able to setup multiple sacrifices due to recurring Gravecrawlers...but suffers worse from early aggro with a lack of blockers T1 to T3.
T2 we have the options of Cartel Aristocrat, Diregraf Ghoul, and Blood Artist as blockers. We don't want to use Blood Artist as a blocker obviously.
T2 we sac Gravecrawler to Cartel Aristocrat to block. While our aggro enemy will have 3 guys to plow through. Cartel blocks one. T3 we can cast Geralf's(which wants to be sacc'ed to Cartel) and Lingering Souls. Assuming we have either of those...T3 Our opponent will have Silverblade or Boros Reckoner. Lingering Souls is preferable to Geralf's for early aggro. It gives us something to sacrifice and gives us a blocker. So we block whatever can be killed with Cartel after we sac a soul. Then the leftover soul chump blocks some poor guy.
T4, we can play geralf's and recast a gravecrawler. Which gives us more things to sac...but only one blocker.
T4, we can play Falkenrath Aristocrat...which doesn't really help anything unless we're trying to race, since we only have a Cartel to sac for it.
T4, we can flashback lingering souls and play a blood artist. This is probably the best option we can hope for against aggro T4. Resets us back to T3 with Lifegain.
After T4, we can usually stabilize but up to that point...we can be taking around 10-14 damage if we aren't careful.
So why not use Doomed Traveler? We get a free sac and then an immediate creature. We don't get endless value like we would from Gravecrawler...but I think it deserves a spot over Diregraf ghoul. It reduces our zombie count...but the only time we want Diregraf is to recast Gravecrawler...the only time we want gravecrawler is to create fodder for Cartel and Falkenrath....which won't come into play till after T4 and on. Otherwise...WE NEED early blockers since Ghor Clan Rampager is going to pump into lethal(especially if we run shock lands).
Doomed Traveler isn't as good in the long game(arguably, since he does give Falkenrath a +1/+1), but gives us more options early on.
Gravecrawler is better for the late game. He can be early pressure...but we want to sac him to Cartel early. But he comes back later whereas Doomed doesn't.
What if we throw in Skirsdag High Priest? It can gives us a 5/5 blocker by T3 if we run Doomed Traveler. T1, Doomed. T2, Cartel. T3, Skirsdag...sac Doomed and tap Cartel+Soul token from Doomed= 5/5 Flyer.
Why do we run Geralf's? It's good damage, wants to be sac'ed, recurs Gravecrawler. This card honestly isn't a T3 play in our deck! We're more worried about gaining board presence with good blockers early and then sacrificing them all for value and shooting for damage right around T4-T6.
Would Boros Reckoner be better? Damn good blocker. 2 for 1's. Shenanigans with Harvest Pyre, Blasphemous Act...etc..
Can end game T4 with Blasphemous Act. Shuts down early aggro. Doesn't really want to be sacrificed.
So the end result is...Splash red into BW Zombies and you slowly turn into The Aristocrats.