I'm currently plaing Boros Champion but I am thinking about buying into the Deck. What are our Good matchups and the Bad ones?
What about nevermore as a card but slaughtergames is prob just better.
Ps: Sorry for The weird capitalization Writing on my German phone
Esper Control (too many answers to our threats -- especially any build running exile-based sweepers which get around our indestructibility. Azorious Charm answers a Falkenrath Aristocrat nicely, Terminus hoses us, etc.)
Humanimator Combo (there's a guy that plays where I play that routinely gets this combo off against me by turn 4-6 and mills my entire deck)
American Control, (can't usually burn me out on account of Nearheath Pilgrim).
Non-combo based Re-animator (usually too slow to give me a problem)
The Mirror (I don't run Orzhov Charm and thus almost always have more life than the opponent. I run 4 Nearheath Pilgrim and 4 Silverblade Paladin. Having the extra life and pushing the extra damage through early usually means I'm in a better position to win the mirror. My biggest criticisms of the stock deck list are the lack of a playset of Silverblade Paladin and not enough life gain. Correcting both of these has resulted in my never having lost a round (against 3 so far) to the mirror).
Just some general comments about the last dozen or so posts -
The last couple days I've been running the version that mishima listed , but with some minor tweaks. MB -1 Skirsdag, +1 SLip, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Ultimate Price, -2 Orzhov Charm. My SB is really different too.
Some things I've found:
I think Nighthawk is the correct call right now over Reckoner. Reckoner bis great vs. aggro, but you really don't want to attack with him (at least until you stabilize), and he's not that great in many other matchups. The biggest lost is the Blasphemous Act combo, but thats a gamble anyway. Nighthawk + Knight of Infamy just wins you aggro games. Blitz and R/x aggro generally use early removal on champions and skirsdags, so you can fly over wih an exalted nighthawk to stay up on life and chump block with 1/1s until your 4 and 5 drops come in. Silverblade/Slayer's Stronghold/Faithmender just makes Nighthawks get out of hand too.
Skirsdag is always either/or for me. He's either useless, or great. Regardless, he's a removal target and makes the opponent leery right away. The off chance T1 Traveler, T2 Skirsdag, T3 Cartel ->Demon is worth keeping him around too, since thats almost always game when it comes together. I know I never like seeing him land when I play the mirror, or when I used to play against 'crats with my other decks. I don't want more than 2 though.
I think keeping Zealous conscripts in for aggro is wrong too. Vs. aggro I go: -2 Conscripts, -1 Lingering Souls, -2 Falkenrath, +2 Nighthawk, +2 Faithmender, +1 Ultimate Price. I go all in on the Nighthawk plan, and really, its been working great. A 5 drop is too slow in most games, I would rather just have a 2 drop removal spell. Knight of Infamies need to stay in all matchups as well.
amk320 is right about Slayer's Stronghold too. I've found it way way better than Vault, especially in this build with the nighthawks.
Agreed about Junk Rites matchup too - SB in 2 Slaughter Games and 2 Purify the grave well get you pretty far.
The Mirror - The #1 card that hoses all builds of this deck is Curse of Deaths Hold. I'm really surprised more people don;t have it in the SB, but so far its why I haven't lost a mirror match yet
Aggro is actually not where I want this guy either. Playing something human instead generally means both that my Champion of the Parish grows, possibly resulting in more life or damage if he's bound to something, and that my mana base isn't all janky. If you've used a Cavern of Souls then your Reckoner isn't showing up until turn 4 and against a savvy aggro player, that's too late for him to matter.
It's the slower matches against mid-range or the mirror that Boros Reckoner shines for me.
What is the thoughts of playing this vs the more aggro version with silverblade paladin/knight of infamy and stuff?
The thing I'm torn on between the two is the blood artists, after playing with them they are a really good edition and that +1/-1 action really helps, however they are not humans so they will not be pumping your champ. They clearly work better in the Brad Nelson deck, but should we abandon them completely in the aggro/mid-range version?
Most people dont play liliana in this. I was just sick of orhzov charm underperforming. Tragic slip isn't always online even with our sacs. Here's my current list.
Most people dont play liliana in this. I was just sick of orhzov charm underperforming. Tragic slip isn't always online even with our sacs. Here's my current list.
I'm probably going to be running a similar list, with less liliana's and more Dreadbore
I'm thinking of keeping cavern down to 2 aswell.
Edit: On a sidenote this is what I am playing now after seeing a IQ list. It's much more resilient than the human list to sweepers, and you get the same amount of aggro except the turn 4 wins with silverblade. I will have to tweak my SB as it's pretty weak right now, but other than that this deck has been running pretty great for me, with the only problem being very very explosive aggro such as Naya blitz since I will not have blockers until turn 2-3. Doomed Traveler worked well in that situation, but I feel the 12 zombies are nessecary to reanimate Gravecrawler on a regular basis. Also, this deck is low on plains so a reliable t1 cast is iffy.
I'm probably going to be running a similar list, with less liliana's and more Dreadbore
I'm thinking of keeping cavern down to 2 aswell.
Edit: On a sidenote this is what I am playing now after seeing a IQ list. It's much more resilient than the human list to sweepers, and you get the same amount of aggro except the turn 4 wins with silverblade. I will have to tweak my SB as it's pretty weak right now, but other than that this deck has been running pretty great for me, with the only problem being very very explosive aggro such as Naya blitz since I will not have blockers until turn 2-3. Doomed Traveler worked well in that situation, but I feel the 12 zombies are nessecary to reanimate Gravecrawler on a regular basis. Also, this deck is low on plains so a reliable t1 cast is iffy.
I have been running BWr and trying to make it work for a good month.
I honestly believe it is just a bad Aristocrats deck. We can't support any blocking the first 3 turns against Aggro. That is the worst. I've been lurking here and posting in the B/x Zombies thread. Some people are running Corpse Blockade(3 drop) as a 2 of to give a blocker, a sac outlet, and a gravecrawler enabler. It stops aggro cold fairly well.
You are going to have problems with aggro. EVERY time. Run Gloom Surgeons. I vouch for them. They are damn good against Aggro. Usually killing a creature and blocking 2 damage. KOI also seems good right now simply because it is pro-white...and we run evasion(Cartel and Falkenrath). He can easily hold off Champion of the Parish and any other white shenanigans.
Bloodthrone Vampire is up to preference. I don't know how to decide between Cartel and Bloodthrone.
Right now some of the hotter topics is running KOI and Vampire Nighthawk MD.
I personally run 3 threaten effects mainboard...doubles as removal in this deck AND extra damage. It gives a good edge against Aggro as it offsets their plan. This also works very well against Rites. Mark of Mutiny works wonders and Zealous Conscripts is also worth considering.
Lingering Souls may be a 3-of...It delays aggro and serves as fodder but..I find myself clawing to the surface in the attempt of stabilizing with this card. I cast it T3 and I hope I have a Blood Artist on the field...If not its usually game over. T4 I flash it back and have 2 mana to play a Blood Artist or a Cartel Aristocrat...thats too slow sometimes.
Blind Obedience has been meh for me.
TL;DR
Put Gloom Surgeon into the SB
Consider KOI
Consider Mark Of Mutiny/Threaten Effects
You want a blocker that can survive combat T3(Vampire Nighthawk...)
Geralf's is not a T3 play against aggro
Consider Corpse Blockade
Make up your mind and tell me your opinion on Cartel vs. Bloodthrone
Nearheath Pilgrim is an option..but I think Gloom Surgeon is better.
May want more removal MD..I do it to help the aggro G1 match up.
This is my deck for reference. I think I will take out ZC for KOI MD.
A lot of my meta is aggro right now and I might just freaking run Vampire Nighthawk MD.
Honestly..Vampire might be MD over Geralf's. Geralf's is a good blocker...T4..when we are usually dead regardless...He performs well against Control but I feel he is almost only respectable in that situation. I might just test that at FNM tonight.
I don't have GY hate because there is no Junk Rites or other zombies where Im at.
I have been running BWr and trying to make it work for a good month.
I honestly believe it is just a bad Aristocrats deck. We can't support any blocking the first 3 turns against Aggro. That is the worst. I've been lurking here and posting in the B/x Zombies thread. Some people are running Corpse Blockade(3 drop) as a 2 of to give a blocker, a sac outlet, and a gravecrawler enabler. It stops aggro cold fairly well.
You are going to have problems with aggro. EVERY time. Run Gloom Surgeons. I vouch for them. They are damn good against Aggro. Usually killing a creature and blocking 2 damage. KOI also seems good right now simply because it is pro-white...and we run evasion(Cartel and Falkenrath). He can easily hold off Champion of the Parish and any other white shenanigans.
Bloodthrone Vampire is up to preference. I don't know how to decide between Cartel and Bloodthrone.
Right now some of the hotter topics is running KOI and Vampire Nighthawk MD.
I personally run 3 threaten effects mainboard...doubles as removal in this deck AND extra damage. It gives a good edge against Aggro as it offsets their plan. This also works very well against Rites. Mark of Mutiny works wonders and Zealous Conscripts is also worth considering.
Lingering Souls may be a 3-of...It delays aggro and serves as fodder but..I find myself clawing to the surface in the attempt of stabilizing with this card. I cast it T3 and I hope I have a Blood Artist on the field...If not its usually game over. T4 I flash it back and have 2 mana to play a Blood Artist or a Cartel Aristocrat...thats too slow sometimes.
Blind Obedience has been meh for me.
TL;DR
Put Gloom Surgeon into the SB
Consider KOI
Consider Mark Of Mutiny/Threaten Effects
You want a blocker that can survive combat T3(Vampire Nighthawk...)
Geralf's is not a T3 play against aggro
Consider Corpse Blockade
Make up your mind and tell me your opinion on Cartel vs. Bloodthrone
Nearheath Pilgrim is an option..but I think Gloom Surgeon is better.
May want more removal MD..I do it to help the aggro G1 match up.
This is my deck for reference. I think I will take out ZC for KOI MD.
A lot of my meta is aggro right now and I might just freaking run Vampire Nighthawk MD.
Honestly..Vampire might be MD over Geralf's. Geralf's is a good blocker...T4..when we are usually dead regardless...He performs well against Control but I feel he is almost only respectable in that situation. I might just test that at FNM tonight.
I might be going out of order in my answers, so sorry about that.
Yes, the no blockers is the biggest problem in this deck. That's a given. The main problem I am seeing is not just adding cards in. For example KOI is great, lovely...but theres nothing to take out.
4 crawlers, 4 geralf, 4 diregraf are core, you can't take them out and replace them with anything otherwise you might as well not be playing the zombie version of this deck. It makes crawler WAY too inconsistent, saying that decking the vampire nighthawks is purely a SB option at this point, you just can't take out the geralf especially in my build when I'm running restoration angels.
Of course, after SB they will have to be moved out and possibly replaced with the gloom surgeons you mentioned OR KOI if its a white based aggro.
Threaten effects: Good, I like that, but the zealous is too expensive, I'd rather pay 3 for that effect in case I have cartel or bloodthrone so I can quick-sac that creature.
Lingering may go to 3, but I think it is too good to leave at 3....it provides a lot of delay towards aggro. It's just so much value.
On cartel v bloodthrone, I am leaning towards bloodthrone/and cartel as a 2 and 2 split (so 4 sacs on 2 mana)..basing this off purely mana issues, if I have a cavern it really messes with the cartel aristocrat. More removal might be something to consider, its just tough on what to take out. Either way come back and tell me how things went with FNM.
Double Edit: I might have to not even play this archetype, judging by the decks I am playing against its like 80% aggro, significant changes will have to be made or I will probably just go back to running the more generic build which does very well against blitz/aggro
I imagine there are scant few circumstances where you'd have 9 mana available to do this, but it would certainly be awesome to steal a Thragtusk, blink it, gain 5 life and a token, then keep it.
I imagine there are scant few circumstances where you'd have 9 mana available to do this, but it would certainly be awesome to steal a Thragtusk, blink it, gain 5 life and a token, then keep it.
That's hilarious, I wonder how judges who aren't familiar with this would even handle it?
Also, while I'm here I have a small rules question feat. restoration angel. If I blink a card I have on the field in response to a supereme verdict, it stays dead right? What about after someone targets a creatures and I blink it?
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Hi I'm Infecter4life and ironically I only play GBx decks.
That's hilarious, I wonder how judges who aren't familiar with this would even handle it?
Also, while I'm here I have a small rules question feat. restoration angel. If I blink a card I have on the field in response to a supereme verdict, it stays dead right? What about after someone targets a creatures and I blink it?
I'm no rules expert, and get this crap wrong all the time, but my guess is:
Blinking with Restoration Angel in response to a targeted effect does protect the creature targeted.
Alright thank you for clearing this up.
Back to my post a couple pages down, I'm going to still try and get the zombies aristocrats build to work, biggest problem=it needs blockers. A revamp may be needed but I'll wait for some more standard results to see if any more of the lists pop up.
For now it looks like the changes will be in the sideboard similar to the ones suggested by a member a page ago.
Prob going to go -2 nearheath +2 gloom
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Hi I'm Infecter4life and ironically I only play GBx decks.
That's hilarious, I wonder how judges who aren't familiar with this would even handle it?
Also, while I'm here I have a small rules question feat. restoration angel. If I blink a card I have on the field in response to a supereme verdict, it stays dead right? What about after someone targets a creatures and I blink it?
1. Opponent casts supreme verdict. With supreme verdict on the stack you respond with restoration angel. Restoration Angel's ETB effect is put onto the stack targeting creature X. Restoration angel's ability resolves flickering creature X. Supreme Verdict resolves destroying all creatures in play including restoration angel and creature X.
2. Opponent casts Murder targeting Creature X. With murder on the stack you cast restoration angel with it's ability targeting Creature X. Restoration ability resolves flickering Creature X and returning it as a new object lets call it creature Y. Murder attempts to destroy creature X but creature X no longer exists it is now a new object; Creature Y. Murder is countered on resolution and your creature lives.
This is also why flickering a creature that you stole with zealous conscripts. At the end if turn zealous conscripts attempts to give back the creature it took but that creature doesn't exist anymore.
ok so I recently picked up the aristocrats: act 2. I played in a small-ish tournament last night. 3 rounds and cut to top 4. Here's the deck and a few thoughts I had on it.
It's pretty similar to brad nelson's build, except that I exchanged the orzhov charms for dreadbores, since having the ability to nix a planeswalker against jund or esper is pretty important for me. Also the life loss when used as removal against fast aggro makes me not even want to use it half the time. Having the ability to re-use a doomed traveler or bounce one of my creatures back to my hand for whatever reason just don't seem powerful enough for me to warrant the card's inclusion.
The deck has a great matchup against just about any kind of midrange or fast aggro. blood artist and vault provide an amazing amount of life gain and blasphemous act generally keeps most token/swarm strategies in check, if not win the game on the spot. so far I've tested extensively against naya blitz and junk reanimator and I've found I have around an 80-20 matchup against blitz and probably somewhere around 70/30 against reanimator. Reanimator has draws that can blow you out, but generally every thing you're trying to do trumps most of what they're trying to do, and angel of serenity is terrible against this deck.
The hardest matchups I've found are against control (uwr/esper) and jund midrange. Since our deck relies heavily on the synergies between the cards, these deck's ability to interact and take different synergies away can be troublesome. Olivia isn't as much of a problem against this deck as one might think, but tragic slip and bonfire are a boon. Some jund lists aren't running as many of these cards anymore, but reid duke's list is well set up to handle aristocrats.
Out of esper the hardest thing to worry about is simply their jace package. Since many esper lists differ in many ways, it comes down to what particular build you're facing. Some lists are set up to handle this deck and some aren't. UWR is much harder to deal with in general. They have access to izzet staticaster and electrickery, both of which are extremely hard to fight through. Especially when the uwr player has snapcaster to re-use electrickery.
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Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
I played Act One to a third place finish yesterday at a local PTQ, losing to GR aggro in top 4, who went on to win it all. The deck performed beautifully all day, and beating the GR aggro deck was near impossible with his draws, but I think I could have played better. I even won through a 16 point life-swing against Act Two, with me at 3 and him at 34. I wish I had played Rolling Temblor in the sideboard instead of the skullcracks.
ok so I recently picked up the aristocrats: act 2. I played in a small-ish tournament last night. 3 rounds and cut to top 4. Here's the deck and a few thoughts I had on it.
It's pretty similar to brad nelson's build, except that I exchanged the orzhov charms for dreadbores, since having the ability to nix a planeswalker against jund or esper is pretty important for me. Also the life loss when used as removal against fast aggro makes me not even want to use it half the time. Having the ability to re-use a doomed traveler or bounce one of my creatures back to my hand for whatever reason just don't seem powerful enough for me to warrant the card's inclusion.
The deck has a great matchup against just about any kind of midrange or fast aggro. blood artist and vault provide an amazing amount of life gain and blasphemous act generally keeps most token/swarm strategies in check, if not win the game on the spot. so far I've tested extensively against naya blitz and junk reanimator and I've found I have around an 80-20 matchup against blitz and probably somewhere around 70/30 against reanimator. Reanimator has draws that can blow you out, but generally every thing you're trying to do trumps most of what they're trying to do, and angel of serenity is terrible against this deck.
The hardest matchups I've found are against control (uwr/esper) and jund midrange. Since our deck relies heavily on the synergies between the cards, these deck's ability to interact and take different synergies away can be troublesome. Olivia isn't as much of a problem against this deck as one might think, but tragic slip and bonfire are a boon. Some jund lists aren't running as many of these cards anymore, but reid duke's list is well set up to handle aristocrats.
Out of esper the hardest thing to worry about is simply their jace package. Since many esper lists differ in many ways, it comes down to what particular build you're facing. Some lists are set up to handle this deck and some aren't. UWR is much harder to deal with in general. They have access to izzet staticaster and electrickery, both of which are extremely hard to fight through. Especially when the uwr player has snapcaster to re-use electrickery.
I would never take out Charm...It is way too important to the game plan of this deck. Just me though.
I would never take out Charm...It is way too important to the game plan of this deck. Just me though.
Charm is the most useful card in the deck by far. Being able to respond to Huntmaster transform triggers and a plethora of other situations usually breaks your opponent's back.
I'm not really convinced that orzhov charm is that good in Act 2. It had much more usefulness in Act 1 when you had more 1 drops to reanimate. here it's just a really bad removal spell most of the time or, if you're lucky, a bounce spell for one of your creatures.
I've since dropped the dreadbores to the side and put 2 copies of sorin in the main in their place. I found I want sorin against most decks anyway and the deck already has plenty of removal between the 4x tragic slip and blasphemous acts. It's easy enough to SB the extra removal back in when it's warranted.
For the more experienced people in playing this deck concerning the mirror match:
do you think it's right to side out blasphemous act completely? Or is it better to simply try and win an attrition war to set up your blasphemous act? I've been siding them out, but I've noticed some opponent's leaving them in and I've lost a few games to an opponent's combo when I don't have my own reckoner out.
I'm not really convinced that orzhov charm is that good in Act 2. It had much more usefulness in Act 1 when you had more 1 drops to reanimate. here it's just a really bad removal spell most of the time or, if you're lucky, a bounce spell for one of your creatures.
I've since dropped the dreadbores to the side and put 2 copies of sorin in the main in their place. I found I want sorin against most decks anyway and the deck already has plenty of removal between the 4x tragic slip and blasphemous acts. It's easy enough to SB the extra removal back in when it's warranted.
For the more experienced people in playing this deck concerning the mirror match:
do you think it's right to side out blasphemous act completely? Or is it better to simply try and win an attrition war to set up your blasphemous act? I've been siding them out, but I've noticed some opponent's leaving them in and I've lost a few games to an opponent's combo when I don't have my own reckoner out.
Re: Mirror Match
Though my mainboard has now moved in such a direction as to include the Boros Reckoner + Blasphemous Act business, I would always side this in against the mirror. It will become a race, but one you're likely to come out on top of with the advantage of Blood Artist.
Re: Concerning my thoughts on "Act 2" generally:
This deck resembles what I was already trying to do back on page 2 touting the use of Blood Artist + Blasphemous Act + Boros Reckoner. It's a solid strategy, but folds to Rest in Peace, as was mentioned, among other things.
Trying to find a nice balance between the advantages of both Act 1 and Act 2, I've now moved to something in between. Act 1.5, if you will.
I'm generally trying to get a feel for what cards are overperformers in the mirror. I haven't gotten to actually play the mirror yet, but I imagine blood artist, boros reckoner, lingering souls and slip are your main all stars.
also, I was really unimpressed with champion of the parish in the act 1 lists. I just feel like there aren't enough humans in the deck to really abuse him. When I originally tested the deck, I found too many hands where champion was just a 1/1 for far too long. It was one of the main reasons I didn't pick the deck up right away after it won the pro tour. Champion can lead into several nut draws with silverblade, but overall the deck simply felt like it wanted to do something else.
This is my reconditioned list after some more testing:
Right now I'm bringing thundermaw for 1 falkenrath and a blasphemous act, since the mirror has access to slip and lingering souls, falkenrath just seems sub par other than his sac ability.
I'm also bringing in 2 electrickery for for the other 2 blasphemous acts.
I dumped duress and slaughter games out of the board. They just didn't seem that high impact. I'm basically just all in on sorin, obzedat, and thundermaw/falkenrath to be my game winners against control. Hasn't been that bad so far.
Having 3 mark of mutiny vs midrange has been stellar. Easily the best card in the 75 against jund/reanimator/naya/bant midrange.
against naya blitz I generally dump the high priests for 2 dreadbore and 1 electrickery.
I'm not really sure what kind of plan I need against R/G aggro. I imagine orzhov charm would be better in this matchup since you need more instant speed removal to deal with rancor and hellrider, but even then it's a pretty tough matchup. What is everyone else doing against these decks? It feels to me like if I don't draw boros reckoner then I just die.
Though my mainboard has now moved in such a direction as to include the Boros Reckoner + Blasphemous Act business, I would always side this in against the mirror. It will become a race, but one you're likely to come out on top of with the advantage of Blood Artist.
Re: Concerning my thoughts on "Act 2" generally:
This deck resembles what I was already trying to do back on page 2 touting the use of Blood Artist + Blasphemous Act + Boros Reckoner. It's a solid strategy, but folds to Rest in Peace, as was mentioned, among other things.
Trying to find a nice balance between the advantages of both Act 1 and Act 2, I've now moved to something in between. Act 1.5, if you will.
Champion of the Parish works best with a full humans list, IMO. The more non-humans you have, the less useful he becomes. That's why I keep enough humans in the sideboard to go back to a humans-build.
As to all-stars in the mirror match?
I also love 4 Silverblade Paladin. Most people run less for some reason. Having more has helped me immensely.
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For me:
Difficult Match-Ups --
R/G aggro (trample is the bane of my existence)
Jund Midrange (Bonfire of the Damned is the bane of my existence)
Esper Control (too many answers to our threats -- especially any build running exile-based sweepers which get around our indestructibility. Azorious Charm answers a Falkenrath Aristocrat nicely, Terminus hoses us, etc.)
Humanimator Combo (there's a guy that plays where I play that routinely gets this combo off against me by turn 4-6 and mills my entire deck)
Easy Match-Ups --
Naya Humans (without Rancor or Ghor-Clan Rampager)
Any non-Jund Midrange (I run a more aggressive list than most, and can generally close the game out quickly).
Bant Control (I get these guys a lot with Boros Reckoner + Blasphemous Act shenanigans)
American Control, (can't usually burn me out on account of Nearheath Pilgrim).
Non-combo based Re-animator (usually too slow to give me a problem)
The Mirror (I don't run Orzhov Charm and thus almost always have more life than the opponent. I run 4 Nearheath Pilgrim and 4 Silverblade Paladin. Having the extra life and pushing the extra damage through early usually means I'm in a better position to win the mirror. My biggest criticisms of the stock deck list are the lack of a playset of Silverblade Paladin and not enough life gain. Correcting both of these has resulted in my never having lost a round (against 3 so far) to the mirror).
The last couple days I've been running the version that mishima listed , but with some minor tweaks. MB -1 Skirsdag, +1 SLip, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Ultimate Price, -2 Orzhov Charm. My SB is really different too.
Some things I've found:
I think Nighthawk is the correct call right now over Reckoner. Reckoner bis great vs. aggro, but you really don't want to attack with him (at least until you stabilize), and he's not that great in many other matchups. The biggest lost is the Blasphemous Act combo, but thats a gamble anyway. Nighthawk + Knight of Infamy just wins you aggro games. Blitz and R/x aggro generally use early removal on champions and skirsdags, so you can fly over wih an exalted nighthawk to stay up on life and chump block with 1/1s until your 4 and 5 drops come in. Silverblade/Slayer's Stronghold/Faithmender just makes Nighthawks get out of hand too.
Skirsdag is always either/or for me. He's either useless, or great. Regardless, he's a removal target and makes the opponent leery right away. The off chance T1 Traveler, T2 Skirsdag, T3 Cartel ->Demon is worth keeping him around too, since thats almost always game when it comes together. I know I never like seeing him land when I play the mirror, or when I used to play against 'crats with my other decks. I don't want more than 2 though.
I think keeping Zealous conscripts in for aggro is wrong too. Vs. aggro I go: -2 Conscripts, -1 Lingering Souls, -2 Falkenrath, +2 Nighthawk, +2 Faithmender, +1 Ultimate Price. I go all in on the Nighthawk plan, and really, its been working great. A 5 drop is too slow in most games, I would rather just have a 2 drop removal spell. Knight of Infamies need to stay in all matchups as well.
amk320 is right about Slayer's Stronghold too. I've found it way way better than Vault, especially in this build with the nighthawks.
Agreed about Junk Rites matchup too - SB in 2 Slaughter Games and 2 Purify the grave well get you pretty far.
The Mirror - The #1 card that hoses all builds of this deck is Curse of Deaths Hold. I'm really surprised more people don;t have it in the SB, but so far its why I haven't lost a mirror match yet
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Aggro is actually not where I want this guy either. Playing something human instead generally means both that my Champion of the Parish grows, possibly resulting in more life or damage if he's bound to something, and that my mana base isn't all janky. If you've used a Cavern of Souls then your Reckoner isn't showing up until turn 4 and against a savvy aggro player, that's too late for him to matter.
It's the slower matches against mid-range or the mirror that Boros Reckoner shines for me.
Heres a sample list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54771
What is the thoughts of playing this vs the more aggro version with silverblade paladin/knight of infamy and stuff?
The thing I'm torn on between the two is the blood artists, after playing with them they are a really good edition and that +1/-1 action really helps, however they are not humans so they will not be pumping your champ. They clearly work better in the Brad Nelson deck, but should we abandon them completely in the aggro/mid-range version?
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Blood Artist
4 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Silverblade Paladin
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Zealous Conscripts
// Spells
4 Lingering Souls
2 Tragic Slip
3 Liliana of the Veil
// Lands
1 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Blood Crypt
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Rhox Faithmender
1 Tragic Slip
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Mark of Mutiny
3 Cremate
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
I'm probably going to be running a similar list, with less liliana's and more Dreadbore
I'm thinking of keeping cavern down to 2 aswell.
Edit: On a sidenote this is what I am playing now after seeing a IQ list. It's much more resilient than the human list to sweepers, and you get the same amount of aggro except the turn 4 wins with silverblade. I will have to tweak my SB as it's pretty weak right now, but other than that this deck has been running pretty great for me, with the only problem being very very explosive aggro such as Naya blitz since I will not have blockers until turn 2-3. Doomed Traveler worked well in that situation, but I feel the 12 zombies are nessecary to reanimate Gravecrawler on a regular basis. Also, this deck is low on plains so a reliable t1 cast is iffy.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messanger
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Blood artist
3 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Restoration Angel
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Bloodthrone vampire
4 Lingering Souls
4 Tragic Slip
2 Victim of Night
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Swamp
1 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Slaughter Games
2 Cremate
1 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Liliana, of the Veil
2 Purify the Grave
3 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Nearheath Pilgrim
GOOD EEVENING SIR.
I have been running BWr and trying to make it work for a good month.
I honestly believe it is just a bad Aristocrats deck. We can't support any blocking the first 3 turns against Aggro. That is the worst. I've been lurking here and posting in the B/x Zombies thread. Some people are running Corpse Blockade(3 drop) as a 2 of to give a blocker, a sac outlet, and a gravecrawler enabler. It stops aggro cold fairly well.
You are going to have problems with aggro. EVERY time. Run Gloom Surgeons. I vouch for them. They are damn good against Aggro. Usually killing a creature and blocking 2 damage. KOI also seems good right now simply because it is pro-white...and we run evasion(Cartel and Falkenrath). He can easily hold off Champion of the Parish and any other white shenanigans.
Bloodthrone Vampire is up to preference. I don't know how to decide between Cartel and Bloodthrone.
Right now some of the hotter topics is running KOI and Vampire Nighthawk MD.
I personally run 3 threaten effects mainboard...doubles as removal in this deck AND extra damage. It gives a good edge against Aggro as it offsets their plan. This also works very well against Rites. Mark of Mutiny works wonders and Zealous Conscripts is also worth considering.
Lingering Souls may be a 3-of...It delays aggro and serves as fodder but..I find myself clawing to the surface in the attempt of stabilizing with this card. I cast it T3 and I hope I have a Blood Artist on the field...If not its usually game over. T4 I flash it back and have 2 mana to play a Blood Artist or a Cartel Aristocrat...thats too slow sometimes.
Blind Obedience has been meh for me.
TL;DR
Put Gloom Surgeon into the SB
Consider KOI
Consider Mark Of Mutiny/Threaten Effects
You want a blocker that can survive combat T3(Vampire Nighthawk...)
Geralf's is not a T3 play against aggro
Consider Corpse Blockade
Make up your mind and tell me your opinion on Cartel vs. Bloodthrone
Nearheath Pilgrim is an option..but I think Gloom Surgeon is better.
May want more removal MD..I do it to help the aggro G1 match up.
This is my deck for reference. I think I will take out ZC for KOI MD.
A lot of my meta is aggro right now and I might just freaking run Vampire Nighthawk MD.
Honestly..Vampire might be MD over Geralf's. Geralf's is a good blocker...T4..when we are usually dead regardless...He performs well against Control but I feel he is almost only respectable in that situation. I might just test that at FNM tonight.
I don't have GY hate because there is no Junk Rites or other zombies where Im at.
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Zealous Conscripts
4 Blood Artist
Spells: 8
3 Lingering Souls
1 Dreadbore
1 Orzhov Charm
3 Tragic Slip
1 Victim of Night
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
6 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Knight of Infamy
1 Rakdos’s Return
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Gloom Surgeon
I might be going out of order in my answers, so sorry about that.
Yes, the no blockers is the biggest problem in this deck. That's a given. The main problem I am seeing is not just adding cards in. For example KOI is great, lovely...but theres nothing to take out.
4 crawlers, 4 geralf, 4 diregraf are core, you can't take them out and replace them with anything otherwise you might as well not be playing the zombie version of this deck. It makes crawler WAY too inconsistent, saying that decking the vampire nighthawks is purely a SB option at this point, you just can't take out the geralf especially in my build when I'm running restoration angels.
Of course, after SB they will have to be moved out and possibly replaced with the gloom surgeons you mentioned OR KOI if its a white based aggro.
Threaten effects: Good, I like that, but the zealous is too expensive, I'd rather pay 3 for that effect in case I have cartel or bloodthrone so I can quick-sac that creature.
Lingering may go to 3, but I think it is too good to leave at 3....it provides a lot of delay towards aggro. It's just so much value.
On cartel v bloodthrone, I am leaning towards bloodthrone/and cartel as a 2 and 2 split (so 4 sacs on 2 mana)..basing this off purely mana issues, if I have a cavern it really messes with the cartel aristocrat. More removal might be something to consider, its just tough on what to take out. Either way come back and tell me how things went with FNM.
Double Edit: I might have to not even play this archetype, judging by the decks I am playing against its like 80% aggro, significant changes will have to be made or I will probably just go back to running the more generic build which does very well against blitz/aggro
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2012/07/you-can-use-zealous-conscripts-and-restoration-angel-to-a-steal-a-creature-permanently/
I imagine there are scant few circumstances where you'd have 9 mana available to do this, but it would certainly be awesome to steal a Thragtusk, blink it, gain 5 life and a token, then keep it.
That's hilarious, I wonder how judges who aren't familiar with this would even handle it?
Also, while I'm here I have a small rules question feat. restoration angel. If I blink a card I have on the field in response to a supereme verdict, it stays dead right? What about after someone targets a creatures and I blink it?
I'm no rules expert, and get this crap wrong all the time, but my guess is:
Blinking with Restoration Angel in response to Supreme Verdict doesn't work. The blinked creature and the angel both die.
Blinking with Restoration Angel in response to a targeted effect does protect the creature targeted.
Alright thank you for clearing this up.
Back to my post a couple pages down, I'm going to still try and get the zombies aristocrats build to work, biggest problem=it needs blockers. A revamp may be needed but I'll wait for some more standard results to see if any more of the lists pop up.
For now it looks like the changes will be in the sideboard similar to the ones suggested by a member a page ago.
Prob going to go -2 nearheath +2 gloom
1. Opponent casts supreme verdict. With supreme verdict on the stack you respond with restoration angel. Restoration Angel's ETB effect is put onto the stack targeting creature X. Restoration angel's ability resolves flickering creature X. Supreme Verdict resolves destroying all creatures in play including restoration angel and creature X.
2. Opponent casts Murder targeting Creature X. With murder on the stack you cast restoration angel with it's ability targeting Creature X. Restoration ability resolves flickering Creature X and returning it as a new object lets call it creature Y. Murder attempts to destroy creature X but creature X no longer exists it is now a new object; Creature Y. Murder is countered on resolution and your creature lives.
This is also why flickering a creature that you stole with zealous conscripts. At the end if turn zealous conscripts attempts to give back the creature it took but that creature doesn't exist anymore.
4 sacred foundry
4 godless shrine
4 dragonskull summit
3 clifftop retreat
2 isolated chapel
1 plains
1 cavern of souls
1 vault of the archangel
4 blood artist
3 skirsdag high priest
4 cartel aristocrat
4 boros reckoner
4 falkenrath aristocrat
4 lingering souls
4 tragic slip
2 dreadbore
3 blasphemous act
1 cavern of souls
2 obzedat, ghost council
3 sorin, lord of innistrad
2 tormod's crypt
2 slaughter games
2 mark of mutiny
2 duress
1 electrickery
It's pretty similar to brad nelson's build, except that I exchanged the orzhov charms for dreadbores, since having the ability to nix a planeswalker against jund or esper is pretty important for me. Also the life loss when used as removal against fast aggro makes me not even want to use it half the time. Having the ability to re-use a doomed traveler or bounce one of my creatures back to my hand for whatever reason just don't seem powerful enough for me to warrant the card's inclusion.
The deck has a great matchup against just about any kind of midrange or fast aggro. blood artist and vault provide an amazing amount of life gain and blasphemous act generally keeps most token/swarm strategies in check, if not win the game on the spot. so far I've tested extensively against naya blitz and junk reanimator and I've found I have around an 80-20 matchup against blitz and probably somewhere around 70/30 against reanimator. Reanimator has draws that can blow you out, but generally every thing you're trying to do trumps most of what they're trying to do, and angel of serenity is terrible against this deck.
The hardest matchups I've found are against control (uwr/esper) and jund midrange. Since our deck relies heavily on the synergies between the cards, these deck's ability to interact and take different synergies away can be troublesome. Olivia isn't as much of a problem against this deck as one might think, but tragic slip and bonfire are a boon. Some jund lists aren't running as many of these cards anymore, but reid duke's list is well set up to handle aristocrats.
Out of esper the hardest thing to worry about is simply their jace package. Since many esper lists differ in many ways, it comes down to what particular build you're facing. Some lists are set up to handle this deck and some aren't. UWR is much harder to deal with in general. They have access to izzet staticaster and electrickery, both of which are extremely hard to fight through. Especially when the uwr player has snapcaster to re-use electrickery.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Skirsdag High Priest
3 Silverblade Paladin
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Zealous Conscripts
Spells
3 Tragic Slip
2 Orzhov Charm
3 Lingering Souls
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Purify the Grave
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Pacifism
2 Slaughter Games
2 Skullcrack
1 Lingering Souls
1 Electrickery
1 Sever the Bloodline
I would never take out Charm...It is way too important to the game plan of this deck. Just me though.
Charm is the most useful card in the deck by far. Being able to respond to Huntmaster transform triggers and a plethora of other situations usually breaks your opponent's back.
I've since dropped the dreadbores to the side and put 2 copies of sorin in the main in their place. I found I want sorin against most decks anyway and the deck already has plenty of removal between the 4x tragic slip and blasphemous acts. It's easy enough to SB the extra removal back in when it's warranted.
For the more experienced people in playing this deck concerning the mirror match:
do you think it's right to side out blasphemous act completely? Or is it better to simply try and win an attrition war to set up your blasphemous act? I've been siding them out, but I've noticed some opponent's leaving them in and I've lost a few games to an opponent's combo when I don't have my own reckoner out.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Re: Mirror Match
Though my mainboard has now moved in such a direction as to include the Boros Reckoner + Blasphemous Act business, I would always side this in against the mirror. It will become a race, but one you're likely to come out on top of with the advantage of Blood Artist.
Re: Concerning my thoughts on "Act 2" generally:
This deck resembles what I was already trying to do back on page 2 touting the use of Blood Artist + Blasphemous Act + Boros Reckoner. It's a solid strategy, but folds to Rest in Peace, as was mentioned, among other things.
Trying to find a nice balance between the advantages of both Act 1 and Act 2, I've now moved to something in between. Act 1.5, if you will.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Blood Artist
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Silverblade Paladin
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
Spells: 9
4 Lingering Souls
3 Tragic Slip
2 Blasphemous Act
4 Godless Shrine
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Blood Crypt
4 Clifftop Retreat
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Isolated Chapel
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Slayers' Stronghold
3 High Priest of Penance
3 Knight of Infamy
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Nearheath Pilgrim
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Slaughter Games
Works wonders so far. Very happy with the performance.
Re: Orzhov Charm
I've been against this card for most of this thread. It's hardly essential to the deck's success, as I've been winning just fine without it.
I'm generally trying to get a feel for what cards are overperformers in the mirror. I haven't gotten to actually play the mirror yet, but I imagine blood artist, boros reckoner, lingering souls and slip are your main all stars.
also, I was really unimpressed with champion of the parish in the act 1 lists. I just feel like there aren't enough humans in the deck to really abuse him. When I originally tested the deck, I found too many hands where champion was just a 1/1 for far too long. It was one of the main reasons I didn't pick the deck up right away after it won the pro tour. Champion can lead into several nut draws with silverblade, but overall the deck simply felt like it wanted to do something else.
This is my reconditioned list after some more testing:
4 sacred foundry
4 godless shrine
4 dragonskull summit
3 clifftop retreat
2 isolated chapel
1 plains
1 cavern of souls
1 vault of the archangel
4 blood artist
3 skirsdag high priest
4 cartel aristocrat
4 boros reckoner
4 falkenrath aristocrat
4 lingering souls
4 tragic slip
2 sorin, lord of innistrad
3 blasphemous act
2 obzedat, ghost council
1 sorin, lord of innistrad
2 tormod's crypt
3 mark of mutiny
2 electrickery
2 dreadbore
2 thundermaw hellkite
I'm also bringing in 2 electrickery for for the other 2 blasphemous acts.
I dumped duress and slaughter games out of the board. They just didn't seem that high impact. I'm basically just all in on sorin, obzedat, and thundermaw/falkenrath to be my game winners against control. Hasn't been that bad so far.
Having 3 mark of mutiny vs midrange has been stellar. Easily the best card in the 75 against jund/reanimator/naya/bant midrange.
against naya blitz I generally dump the high priests for 2 dreadbore and 1 electrickery.
I'm not really sure what kind of plan I need against R/G aggro. I imagine orzhov charm would be better in this matchup since you need more instant speed removal to deal with rancor and hellrider, but even then it's a pretty tough matchup. What is everyone else doing against these decks? It feels to me like if I don't draw boros reckoner then I just die.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Do you find you don't have enough humans to pump the champion?
As to all-stars in the mirror match?
I also love 4 Silverblade Paladin. Most people run less for some reason. Having more has helped me immensely.