Then you are not using her right, she grows whenever she pings a creature, so end of your opponents turn you ping a lot of things she typically becomes greater than a 6/6 you then untap and ping some more before you swing if you want to
My meta is comprised of Rx Aggro and Bant/4CC with value creatures. Olivia only goes so far. She is worse at keeping me alive than Gideon because even though she blocks, Thundermaw is topping the curve and blazing past her which, while it doesn't flat out kill me, it takes me into a range where I need Vault or Obzedat to stabilize. Gideon may not block, but he demands attention and often times either requires more resources from my opponent to kill than they would actually like to devote, live or die, he has a commanding impact on the board when he hits unless I have not landed Lingering Souls, Boros Reckoner or Rolling Temblor and to an extent, Liliana because I am at lethal anyways in which case I would pick up my cards if I had Gideon as my only play in such a game state.
Olivia in the longer matches is easier to dispatch and still doesn't provide me enough backbone when facing decks packed with value creatures. Pings lead to blinks swings lead to chumps and she is easier to dispose via a sweeper. Gideon lets me play around everything but detention sphere, azorius charm and dreadbore where Olivia does not.
I get why Olivia is more popular, but I don't get how she is more effective than Gideon as her application is not as broad as it looks on paper.
My meta is comprised of Rx Aggro and Bant/4CC with value creatures. Olivia only goes so far. She is worse at keeping me alive than Gideon because even though she blocks, Thundermaw is topping the curve and blazing past her which, while it doesn't flat out kill me, it takes me into a range where I need Vault or Obzedat to stabilize. Gideon may not block, but he demands attention and often times either requires more resources from my opponent to kill than they would actually like to devote, live or die, he has a commanding impact on the board when he hits unless I have not landed Lingering Souls, Boros Reckoner or Rolling Temblor and to an extent, Liliana because I am at lethal anyways in which case I would pick up my cards if I had Gideon as my only play in such a game state.
Olivia in the longer matches is easier to dispatch and still doesn't provide me enough backbone when facing decks packed with value creatures. Pings lead to blinks swings lead to chumps and she is easier to dispose via a sweeper. Gideon lets me play around everything but detention sphere, azorius charm and dreadbore where Olivia does not.
I get why Olivia is more popular, but I don't get how she is more effective than Gideon as her application is not as broad as it looks on paper.
you didn't mention skullcrack gideon just dies to it, it stops his damage prevention so they play it redirect it and block and gideon dies
it is also funny responding to thundermaw's ability, pinging it and then taking it so it is then tapped by its own come into play ability...(doesn't happen often but believe me my opponent was like wtf)
olivia just grows, and steals things, against that Red/x aggro if you are running blind obedience and you are able to drop olivia they just loose because you kill/steal all of their dudes
I have them, but I share a collection with someone, and he was running RWU flash(much more necessary for that deck than for mine). More importantly, is he really necessary for the list? I understand that he can develop favorable situations, but to a large extent he seems over-hyped
I will say though, with the amount of kill I saw about 12 reckoners last weekend and only one of them made it past a turn (oddly enough the one that made it past a turn was paired to a silverblade and I blocked the reckoner with a sorin vampire token, and blocked the silverblade with olivia, and then slipped the reckoner after first strike.)
the person tried to redirect damage to me, and tried to say that paladin killed olivia.... yeah I get the impression more people need to better learn the rules regarding double strike....
I felt hellrider was much worse against me. since I never seemed to have enough instant removal to deal with him...
I think an aggro non-Aristocrats deck needs to be mad with these colors. Reckoner, Nighthawk, Knight of Infamy/Glory, Hellrider, Olivia, etc.
I don't see how this contributes to anything being done here... I don't go to your house and knock the hot dog out of your hand...
Moving on
I have been playing with the deck a ton the past week. Putting all of my UWR stuff aside to work with this deck further.
I have tried the control shell and I really liked it, it was good at taking control of the games against Aggro, overpowering midrange beaters and enduring control's removal. However the deck is a total midrange deck and not really a control deck as I had hoped to flesh out. Needless to say, I am not disappointed.
Below is my most recent lists and information I have picked up or tidbits I have observed through testing this week. When looking at the list, please keep in mind that this is geared towards combatting 3 heavily played cards/decks between me, my play group, and those at my local shop.
Thragtusk with white
Red Deck Wins Variants
Sphinx's Revelations
At my shop, you can go to an event and almost every single deck will fit into one of those categories. I use this information to evaluate the cards in my list and how they impact almost any given match where I may stumble across Red Haste, Thragtusks and Restoration Angels, Sphinx's Revelations. From that data, I shape the list and reevaluate each card and how they help other cards in the list. This helps me establish synergy, and support, as I have already included cards that do something on their own for any given match I would see those categories. From here I have been weeding out any cards that cannot handle any of those matches on their own, or do not have some other support to push the card with consistency.
Pretty basic deck construction at this point, but let it be known.
Looking at those categories, I want the deck to be able to play around and through. Against Aggro I want to play through their swarm by building or sweeping the board. Because haste is prevalent, my key turns are 1-3 and I need my 1-3 drops to interact in some way, between me and my opponent. There needs to be a critical mass of cards here, because I want to ensure that I am doing something on those turns. Turn 2 and 3 are much more important here, because if the board floods I need to be able to keep contention for the match.
I provided myself with 18 slots for turns 1-3 that help me in this match. 21 slots total.
4 Lingering Souls to help me stall and conserve life.
4 Boros Reckoner to gum up combat. He lives he stalls, he dies and is a 2 for 1.
3 Rolling Temblor to combat explosive starts.
2 Pillar of Flame for X/2 critters.
1 Dreadbore if I miss any above listed cards, or have them so I can save them.
2 Orzhov Charm to step in as unconditional* removal if need be.
3 Liliana to remove a creature and absorb damage.
The numbers are where I want them to be. Pillar is there to slow down and explosive start, which is not terribly common, but it does happen so 2 seemed right. Dreadbore was a higher count, but at sorcery speed, I would be using it early enough for Pillar to be effective or late enough to where instant speed with Orzhov was just better. I want to see Lingering Souls and Boros Reckoner against fast Aggro, 4 makes sure it happens. Temblor I just want to dig for and let be. The only time I need it is those few scenarios where I miss Lingering Souls or Boros Reckoner. Liliana removes a creature on an average draw for red Aggro, and she absorbs some damage. Because I am not gaining life, the absorption goes a very long ways.
So now Aggro is out of the way. 18 slots for it and everything else is for winning once our foot is in the door.
For Midrange, I want early power starts. Not necessarily fast, but strong. I want to pack the board with more damage than they can and I want to do it faster or at least attrition them to the point where I have more power. Because of this, turns 3-5 are the most important.
We have a lot of slots devoted to Aggro, which is why some of the removal counts have shifted to options that applicable in the midrange match. Pillar of Flame and to an extent, Rolling Temblor, are weaker as they are less applicable here. For the midrange match turns 3-5 we have a grand total of 20 slots.
Liliana keeps early fat off the board, because Thrsgtusks are often accompanied by white, I almost use her soley for removal. Free Smiters are a back pedal, but just because one of her modes is essentially turned off does not mean she is useless by any means. Turn 3 Liliana keeps Thragtusk off the board for a follow up Resto, or saves a Resto beat, or rids yourself of early Smiters. So here are our slots for this match.
2 Liliana of the Veil for reasons above.
4 Lingering Souls for early pressure and late damage absorption.
4 Boros Reckoner to stave off Thragtusk beats.
1 Barter in Blood to often clear the Board.
4 Gideon, Champion of Justice to provide beats and damage absorption.
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council to provide beats and unblockable damage.
2 Thundermaw Hellkite to go over ground pounders.
Naturally, there are also spells for late game or snap situations. These spells are Dreadbore, Orzhov Charm, Aurelia, the Warleader, Rakdos Return and Merciless Eviction. Incidentally, if you lead in with Boros Reckoner, Rolling Temblor has nice application for shooting larger X/3 or X/4 ground pounders.
Gideon is a big deal here because turn 4 lets you often times put out a 6 or 7 power body that can start swinging the moment Thragtusk hits, letting you negate life gain, potentially remove a threat from blocks or divert a little bit of damage. Because he comes down in turn 4 and we have 18 slots to back up the turns before him, he is often able to take over a game, or simply out muscle your opponent. Outside of Selesnya Charm there is not a whole lot they can do to him. 4 lets me reliably put him out and follow him up again if he dies somehow.
Against Control, all of our turns matter, but primarily turns 3 onward. Revelations decks can draw and gain all the life they want, but racing the damage that comes from all of our creatures is difficult when Gideon and Orzhov are around. With little removal to effectively deal with them, control decks just tend to bleed out or get smashed in from damage if they tap out.
There were 2 copies of this deck in the dailies, I thought they looked interesting so I looked for a forum here. Anyway, this looks like it is a Dega control deck, so I'm posting it here.
R1 was against Esper. Gideon put him down games 1 and 2 quickly. Nothing much to say here.
Round 2 was against 4 Color Control. It was primarily a Bant Control deck that ran black for Abrupt Decay and red for Wolf Run. More or less. Game 1 he was on to back to back revelations x3 and I just picked up my cards to move on to SB. Game 2 was closed out with double Slaughter Games into Gideon and Hellkite. Game 3 was drop Obzedat, drain, drain Drain, act of Treason Thragtusk and swing, next turn Act of Treason and Aurelia for game.
Round 3 was against UW Flash. I punted this one. Rakdos's Return to empty his hand, then blocking a Snapcaster with Lifelink and Deathtouching Boros Reckoner only to dome him instead of Resto. Granted this was game 2, he managed to sneak in with double Resto to my Rakdos's Return and beat face. Close games, but I punted games 2 and 3 without a doubt.
Round 4 was RG Aggro. Boros Reckoner and Rolling Temblor lead into Gideon to end game 1. Game 2 Obzedat against his slow draw was enough.
Round 5 was against Junk Tokens. Intangible Virtue is rough. Because Temblor does not hit most of host tokens, I am left trying to race or trade. Game 1 he swarmed me with fliers. Handing reckoners online and pitching Temblor early to looting, I just could not keep up. Game 2 was closed out with Gideon and Reckoners. He could not remove Gideon with Selesnya Charm because he did not draw it and was left chuping Gideon until he just ran out of blockers. Game 3 we both flooded. After laying down 18 land, I was able to bleed him out with Obzedat who could not swing into his giant token. When he was within range, I dropped Aurelia after a sweep and went to town.
2nd for the 2nd week in a row has me wanting to take this deck next week. It is incredibly solid and barring Aggro but draws and punting plays, I am certain I will be able to take it down next week and maybe take the deck to play for a case on the weekend. We shall see.
I like your most recent DL and I feel it is the most controlling you have made it so far. There are a few cards I do not fully understand, and maybe you can tell me why?
Faithless Looting- Here I would play Sign in Blood, I know it is 2 black, but there is no discarding needed. Also, I have used Sign in Blood Late game for the finishing 2 damage to an opponent before as well.
Thundermaw Hellkite- He is competing with Obzedats spot. He is probably easier to cast, but at the point where you cast either of them you probably want to have board control anyways. I think Obzedat stabilizes better and is only suseptable to instant removal.
Have you thought about Blasphemous Act at all as another board wipe? it can be good against aggro and midrange because they are playing lots of creatures so the cost will usually be cheap. And its always a plus with your own reckoner on the field. And what about searing spear as it doubles as removal and reach?
I also feel like this deck could die if you went into top deck mode. What about some Underworld Connections in the side v. Control?
I like your most recent DL and I feel it is the most controlling you have made it so far. There are a few cards I do not fully understand, and maybe you can tell me why?
Faithless Looting- Here I would play Sign in Blood, I know it is 2 black, but there is no discarding needed. Also, I have used Sign in Blood Late game for the finishing 2 damage to an opponent before as well.
The color of the mana is really not that relevant. BB is definately reasonable. But 1 mana and 2 mana is a big deal. Lingering Souls is saving you life and it sets up your turns 2 and 3. Lingering Souls on turn 2 can be such a strong play if you have Reckoner or Temblor in hand. It is not about raw drawing power, it is about set up and tricks.
Thundermaw Hellkite- He is competing with Obzedats spot. He is probably easier to cast, but at the point where you cast either of them you probably want to have board control anyways. I think Obzedat stabilizes better and is only suseptable to instant removal.
Obzedat and Thundermaw serve different roles and do different things. Obzedat Is much more defensive and Hellkite is more offensive.
Have you thought about Blasphemous Act at all as another board wipe? it can be good against aggro and midrange because they are playing lots of creatures so the cost will usually be cheap. And its always a plus with your own reckoner on the field. And what about searing spear as it doubles as removal and reach?
Aggro is usually dispatched fairly easily between all the tools we already have, BA just seems slow since we are already halting their board state early on..
I also feel like this deck could die if you went into top deck mode. What about some Underworld Connections in the side v. Control?
Hardly ever found myself in top deck mode. But even when I did I was either removing things or overpowering them. Which I why I took out my UC.
There were 2 copies of this deck in the dailies, I thought they looked interesting so I looked for a forum here. Anyway, this looks like it is a Dega control deck, so I'm posting it here.
have you considered unburial rites? it has nice synergy with faithless looting, and can be very good in the esper control matchup (because they basically mill you into more threats).
also, has 4 gideon ever seemed like too many to you?
with the current amount of stupidfast aggro decks, is liliana of the veil good enough to warrant mainboard slots? she seems kinda underwhelming against decks that will kill her after you play her (and probably -2 her). i could see her +1 working too, making them lose a card that they really need, and focusing more of their attacks on her, or extra cards like pump spells if they only have 3 power on board when you +1 her.
have you considered using tragic slip? this card has been an absolute allstar for me in sooo very many different matchups. against any aggro deck its a real kick in the face.
how has aurelia's fury been for you? i havent really tested this card, and im curious about how good it is, and where you side it in. do you ever use it against control for the silence effect?
is 3 slaughter games too many? sometimes i feel like the second one i cast would be better off as something else.
I have them, but I share a collection with someone, and he was running RWU flash(much more necessary for that deck than for mine). More importantly, is he really necessary for the list? I understand that he can develop favorable situations, but to a large extent he seems over-hyped
I will say though, with the amount of kill I saw about 12 reckoners last weekend and only one of them made it past a turn (oddly enough the one that made it past a turn was paired to a silverblade and I blocked the reckoner with a sorin vampire token, and blocked the silverblade with olivia, and then slipped the reckoner after first strike.)
the person tried to redirect damage to me, and tried to say that paladin killed olivia.... yeah I get the impression more people need to better learn the rules regarding double strike....
I felt hellrider was much worse against me. since I never seemed to have enough instant removal to deal with him...
reckoner is absolutely not only worth it, but HUGE in every aggro matchup. not using them is a 100% mistake. they arent overhyped at all, they are incredible!
trust me. if they dont have the removal, this ONE GUY will brickwall a LOT of attacks, and make people wish they werent playing these mindless HURRDURR ATTACK YOU! decks.
have you considered unburial rites? it has nice synergy with faithless looting, and can be very good in the esper control matchup (because they basically mill you into more threats).
Esper already struggles in the match because most of their removal is completely dead to Gideon and Obzedat, and all they can really do game 2 is speed themselves up. So what do they do when you Slaughter Games their catalyst? They die the same way they did game 1. This deck already has too much inevitability to it (my list). I also only run 3 Faithless looting which isn't enough for me to want to scrap 2 slots for a card I don't actually need. But I have considered it, just never felt the need for it or the as t for it.
also, has 4 gideon ever seemed like too many to you?
Nope. If I ever have excess they are looting fodder. 4 is perfect. I tried less, and lost more. He closes too many games and having him on turn 4 or 5 is pretty important.
with the current amount of stupidfast aggro decks, is liliana of the veil good enough to warrant mainboard slots? she seems kinda underwhelming against decks that will kill her after you play her (and probably -2 her). i could see her +1 working too, making them lose a card that they really need, and focusing more of their attacks on her, or extra cards like pump spells if they only have 3 power on board when you +1 her.
She is there for midrange and control as well as slow draws for Aggro. 2 seems right, I only side in the 3rd for control really. I don't see myself ever cutting her. Her role is pretty essential in either stealing the control game early or staving off midrange beats, where our hardest match is.
have you considered using tragic slip? this card has been an absolute allstar for me in sooo very many different matchups. against any aggro deck its a real kick in the face.
Pillar is more effective for me. Because I have enough removal for larger creatures, in the early game I need to get rid of X/2 dudes for cheap and save my better removal for later. I don't have dudes to throw under the bus for Morbid and if I want a 2 for 1 then Temblor, Liliana (to an extent), hater in blood, Reckoner, and eviction do the job just fine without diminishing my board presence or hand size. Slip requires too much work when we have Pillar, Dreadbore and Orzhov charm available to us.
how has aurelia's fury been for you? i havent really tested this card, and im curious about how good it is, and where you side it in. do you ever use it against control for the silence effect?
"This card wins so many games!" Said no one, ever. It is coming out as soon as I figure out what I want that slot to be. It is just a piss poor card.
is 3 slaughter games too many? sometimes i feel like the second one i cast would be better off as something else.
I have 3 because it is crucial that I see it for turn 4. I can't afford to let them land Thragtusks or JMA. They are too hard to deal with and if I can get them out of the way, the matches become gravy.
Esper already struggles in the match because most of their removal is completely dead to Gideon and Obzedat, and all they can really do game 2 is speed themselves up. So what do they do when you Slaughter Games their catalyst? They die the same way they did game 1. This deck already has too much inevitability to it (my list). I also only run 3 Faithless looting which isn't enough for me to want to scrap 2 slots for a card I don't actually need. But I have considered it, just never felt the need for it or the as t for it.
Nope. If I ever have excess they are looting fodder. 4 is perfect. I tried less, and lost more. He closes too many games and having him on turn 4 or 5 is pretty important.
She is there for midrange and control as well as slow draws for Aggro. 2 seems right, I only side in the 3rd for control really. I don't see myself ever cutting her. Her role is pretty essential in either stealing the control game early or staving off midrange beats, where our hardest match is.
Pillar is more effective for me. Because I have enough removal for larger creatures, in the early game I need to get rid of X/2 dudes for cheap and save my better removal for later. I don't have dudes to throw under the bus for Morbid and if I want a 2 for 1 then Temblor, Liliana (to an extent), hater in blood, Reckoner, and eviction do the job just fine without diminishing my board presence or hand size. Slip requires too much work when we have Pillar, Dreadbore and Orzhov charm available to us.
"This card wins so many games!" Said no one, ever. It is coming out as soon as I figure out what I want that slot to be. It is just a piss poor card.
I have 3 because it is crucial that I see it for turn 4. I can't afford to let them land Thragtusks or JMA. They are too hard to deal with and if I can get them out of the way, the matches become gravy.
i dont know, the esper matchup can be kinda hard if they draw well. between counterspells, and azorius charm, and devour flesh, they have a lot of ways to deal with our spells that are pretty clunky in general. if they do this while keeping ahead in card advantage via think twice, and especially their game 1 sphinx's revelations, they can win pretty easily.
thundermaw is probably pretty huge against them i would imagine, as their azorius charms wont help them as much.
i also considered devil's play against them. any thoughts on that card? its probably too slow, and a creature or another gideon is likely better, but its intriguing that they could drownyard themselves into my devil's play for late game. its also not half bad in other matchups.
i dont know, the esper matchup can be kinda hard if they draw well. between counterspells, and azorius charm, and devour flesh, they have a lot of ways to deal with our spells that are pretty clunky in general. if they do this while keeping ahead in card advantage via think twice, and especially their game 1 sphinx's revelations, they can win pretty easily.
thundermaw is probably pretty huge against them i would imagine, as their azorius charms wont help them as much.
i also considered devil's play against them. any thoughts on that card? its probably too slow, and a creature or another gideon is likely better, but its intriguing that they could drownyard themselves into my devil's play for late game. its also not half bad in other matchups.
They simply do not have the resources to counter and mill for a good percentage of the game, they have to choose between one or the other. Because the threat density in this match is so heavy, 18 cards (virtually 22) we not only out do their counter deleting sly easy, but we also are able to start dropping thugs back to back which helps us if we are in an attrition war when looking at things card for card. You can ride out Lingering Souls and reckoners for the early stages of the game then hinder their milling by continuously dropping down threats and bleeding them out. If you know Azorius Charm and Devour Flesh are probably in hand, Gideon can just keep ticking up to threaten the game all the same. They do not have the resources to outlast us with any sort of consistency. At least not in any of my testing, and Esper is one of my more tested matches because my buddy is all about that deck right now and he is in no stretch a bad player.
As far as Devil's Play goes, I would probably run Fury in that match simply because it domes and shuts off spells.
They simply do not have the resources to counter and mill for a good percentage of the game, they have to choose between one or the other. Because the threat density in this match is so heavy, 18 cards (virtually 22) we not only out do their counter deleting sly easy, but we also are able to start dropping thugs back to back which helps us if we are in an attrition war when looking at things card for card. You can ride out Lingering Souls and reckoners for the early stages of the game then hinder their milling by continuously dropping down threats and bleeding them out. If you know Azorius Charm and Devour Flesh are probably in hand, Gideon can just keep ticking up to threaten the game all the same. They do not have the resources to outlast us with any sort of consistency. At least not in any of my testing, and Esper is one of my more tested matches because my buddy is all about that deck right now and he is in no stretch a bad player.
As far as Devil's Play goes, I would probably run Fury in that match simply because it domes and shuts off spells.
I Brought my deck to gameday couple weeks back and played two different Esper decks and both had trouble keeping up to the threats my deck had.
For those interested here is the list I'm currently running.
I can of decide if Sever the Bloodline is a card I want over Barter in Blood or in the SB to be honest. It has applications, but Barter in Blood does a lot of work by guaranteeing 2 creatures are off the board... Anyone try it?
I also like Mizzium Mortars on paper. How is it working? I like Merciless Eviction because it has application against more than just creatures.
I went 4-1 Friday with this deck with my only loss being to Humanimator. Wins were against, UWR flash, BW exalted brew, Naya Midrange, and Naya blitz (razor thin margin of error here).
I am not running the liliana due to not having any but replaced her with more removal. I feel like something is missing though and I am not sure what to change. Gideon was amazing in every game I used him. I feel like orzhov charm is the weakest card here but even that I used to close out games.
Liliana is a pretty integral part of the deck. We need to be able to steal games against control and keep midrange beats to a minimum and she fills that role perfectly. She also makes me appreciate Orzhov Charm more simply because that instant speed is much more enticing when I have other ways to keep general midrange monsters at bay and OC brings me emergency removal.
I can of decide if Sever the Bloodline is a card I want over Barter in Blood or in the SB to be honest. It has applications, but Barter in Blood does a lot of work by guaranteeing 2 creatures are off the board... Anyone try it?
I also like Mizzium Mortars on paper. How is it working? I like Merciless Eviction because it has application against more than just creatures.
I love Mizzium mortars. In my deck I wanted to go up to 3 but Boros Reckoner is a card after all.
For the 5 slot, has anyone done any significant testing on thundermaw vs obzedat? I'm not even sure which is better at the moment.
I run them side by side as 3 Obzedat and 2 Thundermaw Hellkite.
The reason why is because Thundermaw Hellkite is more of a finisher where Obzedate is more of a stabilization piece. Against Aggro and Control, Obzedat is King. Against Midrange, Thundermaw Hellkite does far more work.
Absolutely LOVE the deck. I did end up 3rd at nationals playing these colors last year with Restoration angels, Blade splicers Olivias and gideon jura, so i´ll probably be running something along the lines of this this years qualifiers.
I think that the decks strong is that it has almost 100% MUST answer threats and attacks from a whole bunch of different angles, i mean untapping with a board of 2-4 tokens of lingering souls protecting a gideon with 6-8 loyalty, having an Obzedat entering that turn, drawing an aurelia and casting a Rakdos's Return for 3 or 4 seems unstoppable.
Still don´t have time to test or money to buy the cards, but will definitely be playing this
I´m not sure about playing Ultimate price or tragic slip. Ultimate price kills every mono red deck creature, restoration angel tragtusk (kind of), and tragic slip kills reckoner, aristocrat, early dudes, late game dudes whenever a lingering soul token dies or something.
I´m playing keyrune because it´s the best card i could think of to kill thragtusk and topdecked Avacyn Pilgrim late game when you´re low on life and they´ve got a wolf run. It also kills most creatures and can bother control a bit pre board as well as ramp into a turn 4 Obzedat or Return for 3. Additionally it ramps into Mortars as well.
The thing i´m worried the most about is having 3 Temblor main against aggro, beacause i would have 3 completely dead cards against control, which kind of makes me want to take them out but that leaves me pretty exposed to turn 1 stromkirk noble t2 ash zealot. All of this kind of makes me HAVE to play reckoner, a card i don´t even really like at all.
The sideboard is still under construction, but will eventually get there.
I do however want suggestions on sideboarding mainly against control. So against control i think that the best cards are:
Aurelia: Surprise 6+ damage that can kind of withstand a charm seems ok
Gideon: Very important kill condition. Basically it you +1 and there on out you activate for 0 that´s it.
Rakdos return: Backbreaking. To be played as fast as possible
liliana: Demands a detention sphere while tearing their hand appart, hurts us less if we´ve got lingering souls
Slaughter games: Very powerful pretty much never dead card against control. Most important targets i think are Detention sphere,Sphinx´s revelation and last but not least azorius charm.
Other cards that could be good are
Obzedat: It DOES not get killed by the verdict or sphere but DOES have to attack to be good. Leaving it back to drain doesn´t seem like an option to me (depends on the board state obviously). I´d still keep it in i guess.
lingering souls: Isn´t that awesome against control i think. unless paired with liliana or maybe aurelia.
Aurelia´s fury: This might be good. The idea is to probably fireball them so that you can get in with gideon that turn and have them play on the tip of their toes.
keyrune: Surprise 3/1 of 5/1 hitter (with stronghold) that could steal some life from the opponent. Still might just get detention sphered
Cards that are problematic against us i think are:
How would the following sideboard look?
-3 mizzium mortars
-3 rolling temblor
-2 Ultimate price/traic slip
+1 liliana of the veil
+3 slaughter games
+2 Aurelia´s Fury
+2 something else (?)
Boros Reckoner is the new Rakdos Keyrun when you are thinking about a 3 drop Thragtusk slayer. For that reason alone, I never bothered putting in Keyrune.
Temblor has been an all star main for me. Probably because our threats are just hard for Esper and other control decks to continuously deal with and all of them are extremely potent against control.
I also like to take advantage of the strong removal we have in Dreadbore and Orzhov Charm. They don't require anything to kill creatures other than the occasional life loss which I never have been sad to pay. I have been debating going up to 3 charms. I don't like how I can sometimes have null targets with slip, spear and price. Dreadbore and Charm help me ensure whatever I need to kill can be killed without question.
As far as the SB, I can tell you Aurelia's Fury is not as good as it seems. Every time I have seen it I just feel like it is always so-so. Never sad and never relieved. I will be cutting it as it is just too bland for me.
Ok I've been checking this deck out for a while I play jund and this deck is somewhat similar in strategy but maybe i overlooked this but I don't see bonfires in anyone's list is there a reason thanx in advance
Ok I've been checking this deck out for a while I play jund and this deck is somewhat similar in strategy but maybe i overlooked this but I don't see bonfires in anyone's list is there a reason thanx in advance
Our damage output is much higher than Jund. Our removal is also better than jund and with Boros Reckoner, our game against midrange is easier. Bonefire was one of the first cuts I ever made in testing before I posted the thread. We just have better things to be doing.
My meta is comprised of Rx Aggro and Bant/4CC with value creatures. Olivia only goes so far. She is worse at keeping me alive than Gideon because even though she blocks, Thundermaw is topping the curve and blazing past her which, while it doesn't flat out kill me, it takes me into a range where I need Vault or Obzedat to stabilize. Gideon may not block, but he demands attention and often times either requires more resources from my opponent to kill than they would actually like to devote, live or die, he has a commanding impact on the board when he hits unless I have not landed Lingering Souls, Boros Reckoner or Rolling Temblor and to an extent, Liliana because I am at lethal anyways in which case I would pick up my cards if I had Gideon as my only play in such a game state.
Olivia in the longer matches is easier to dispatch and still doesn't provide me enough backbone when facing decks packed with value creatures. Pings lead to blinks swings lead to chumps and she is easier to dispose via a sweeper. Gideon lets me play around everything but detention sphere, azorius charm and dreadbore where Olivia does not.
I get why Olivia is more popular, but I don't get how she is more effective than Gideon as her application is not as broad as it looks on paper.
you didn't mention skullcrack gideon just dies to it, it stops his damage prevention so they play it redirect it and block and gideon dies
it is also funny responding to thundermaw's ability, pinging it and then taking it so it is then tapped by its own come into play ability...(doesn't happen often but believe me my opponent was like wtf)
olivia just grows, and steals things, against that Red/x aggro if you are running blind obedience and you are able to drop olivia they just loose because you kill/steal all of their dudes
ohh my bad haha. i thought thats the card he was talking about.
My deviantART; if you're interested in alters, PM me!
I have them, but I share a collection with someone, and he was running RWU flash(much more necessary for that deck than for mine). More importantly, is he really necessary for the list? I understand that he can develop favorable situations, but to a large extent he seems over-hyped
I will say though, with the amount of kill I saw about 12 reckoners last weekend and only one of them made it past a turn (oddly enough the one that made it past a turn was paired to a silverblade and I blocked the reckoner with a sorin vampire token, and blocked the silverblade with olivia, and then slipped the reckoner after first strike.)
the person tried to redirect damage to me, and tried to say that paladin killed olivia.... yeah I get the impression more people need to better learn the rules regarding double strike....
I felt hellrider was much worse against me. since I never seemed to have enough instant removal to deal with him...
I don't see how this contributes to anything being done here... I don't go to your house and knock the hot dog out of your hand...
Moving on
I have been playing with the deck a ton the past week. Putting all of my UWR stuff aside to work with this deck further.
I have tried the control shell and I really liked it, it was good at taking control of the games against Aggro, overpowering midrange beaters and enduring control's removal. However the deck is a total midrange deck and not really a control deck as I had hoped to flesh out. Needless to say, I am not disappointed.
Below is my most recent lists and information I have picked up or tidbits I have observed through testing this week. When looking at the list, please keep in mind that this is geared towards combatting 3 heavily played cards/decks between me, my play group, and those at my local shop.
Thragtusk with white
Red Deck Wins Variants
Sphinx's Revelations
At my shop, you can go to an event and almost every single deck will fit into one of those categories. I use this information to evaluate the cards in my list and how they impact almost any given match where I may stumble across Red Haste, Thragtusks and Restoration Angels, Sphinx's Revelations. From that data, I shape the list and reevaluate each card and how they help other cards in the list. This helps me establish synergy, and support, as I have already included cards that do something on their own for any given match I would see those categories. From here I have been weeding out any cards that cannot handle any of those matches on their own, or do not have some other support to push the card with consistency.
Pretty basic deck construction at this point, but let it be known.
Looking at those categories, I want the deck to be able to play around and through. Against Aggro I want to play through their swarm by building or sweeping the board. Because haste is prevalent, my key turns are 1-3 and I need my 1-3 drops to interact in some way, between me and my opponent. There needs to be a critical mass of cards here, because I want to ensure that I am doing something on those turns. Turn 2 and 3 are much more important here, because if the board floods I need to be able to keep contention for the match.
I provided myself with 18 slots for turns 1-3 that help me in this match. 21 slots total.
4 Lingering Souls to help me stall and conserve life.
4 Boros Reckoner to gum up combat. He lives he stalls, he dies and is a 2 for 1.
3 Rolling Temblor to combat explosive starts.
2 Pillar of Flame for X/2 critters.
1 Dreadbore if I miss any above listed cards, or have them so I can save them.
2 Orzhov Charm to step in as unconditional* removal if need be.
3 Liliana to remove a creature and absorb damage.
The numbers are where I want them to be. Pillar is there to slow down and explosive start, which is not terribly common, but it does happen so 2 seemed right. Dreadbore was a higher count, but at sorcery speed, I would be using it early enough for Pillar to be effective or late enough to where instant speed with Orzhov was just better. I want to see Lingering Souls and Boros Reckoner against fast Aggro, 4 makes sure it happens. Temblor I just want to dig for and let be. The only time I need it is those few scenarios where I miss Lingering Souls or Boros Reckoner. Liliana removes a creature on an average draw for red Aggro, and she absorbs some damage. Because I am not gaining life, the absorption goes a very long ways.
So now Aggro is out of the way. 18 slots for it and everything else is for winning once our foot is in the door.
For Midrange, I want early power starts. Not necessarily fast, but strong. I want to pack the board with more damage than they can and I want to do it faster or at least attrition them to the point where I have more power. Because of this, turns 3-5 are the most important.
We have a lot of slots devoted to Aggro, which is why some of the removal counts have shifted to options that applicable in the midrange match. Pillar of Flame and to an extent, Rolling Temblor, are weaker as they are less applicable here. For the midrange match turns 3-5 we have a grand total of 20 slots.
Liliana keeps early fat off the board, because Thrsgtusks are often accompanied by white, I almost use her soley for removal. Free Smiters are a back pedal, but just because one of her modes is essentially turned off does not mean she is useless by any means. Turn 3 Liliana keeps Thragtusk off the board for a follow up Resto, or saves a Resto beat, or rids yourself of early Smiters. So here are our slots for this match.
2 Liliana of the Veil for reasons above.
4 Lingering Souls for early pressure and late damage absorption.
4 Boros Reckoner to stave off Thragtusk beats.
1 Barter in Blood to often clear the Board.
4 Gideon, Champion of Justice to provide beats and damage absorption.
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council to provide beats and unblockable damage.
2 Thundermaw Hellkite to go over ground pounders.
Naturally, there are also spells for late game or snap situations. These spells are Dreadbore, Orzhov Charm, Aurelia, the Warleader, Rakdos Return and Merciless Eviction. Incidentally, if you lead in with Boros Reckoner, Rolling Temblor has nice application for shooting larger X/3 or X/4 ground pounders.
Gideon is a big deal here because turn 4 lets you often times put out a 6 or 7 power body that can start swinging the moment Thragtusk hits, letting you negate life gain, potentially remove a threat from blocks or divert a little bit of damage. Because he comes down in turn 4 and we have 18 slots to back up the turns before him, he is often able to take over a game, or simply out muscle your opponent. Outside of Selesnya Charm there is not a whole lot they can do to him. 4 lets me reliably put him out and follow him up again if he dies somehow.
Against Control, all of our turns matter, but primarily turns 3 onward. Revelations decks can draw and gain all the life they want, but racing the damage that comes from all of our creatures is difficult when Gideon and Orzhov are around. With little removal to effectively deal with them, control decks just tend to bleed out or get smashed in from damage if they tap out.
Anyways, onto the list!
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
Planeswalker (6)
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Gideon, Champion of Justice
Legendary Creatures (4)
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Instant (2)
2 Orzhov Charm
Sorcery (17)
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Barter in Blood
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Lingering Souls
1 Dreadbore
3 Faithless Looting
3 Rolling Temblor
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Slayer's Stronghold
2 Aurelia's Fury
2 Act of Treason
3 Duress
3 Slaughter Games
1 Orzhov Charm
1 Merciless Eviction
2 Oivion Ring
1 Liliana of the Veil
60 cards
Lands
4 Blood Crypt
3 Clifftop Retreat
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Vault of the Archangel
Creatures
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Gloom Surgeon
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Olivia Voldaren
4 Dreadbore
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Searing Spear
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Unburial Rites
4 Blasphemous Act
3 Purify the Grave
2 Rest in Peace
3 Tragic Slip
3 Vampire Nighthawk
R1 was against Esper. Gideon put him down games 1 and 2 quickly. Nothing much to say here.
Round 2 was against 4 Color Control. It was primarily a Bant Control deck that ran black for Abrupt Decay and red for Wolf Run. More or less. Game 1 he was on to back to back revelations x3 and I just picked up my cards to move on to SB. Game 2 was closed out with double Slaughter Games into Gideon and Hellkite. Game 3 was drop Obzedat, drain, drain Drain, act of Treason Thragtusk and swing, next turn Act of Treason and Aurelia for game.
Round 3 was against UW Flash. I punted this one. Rakdos's Return to empty his hand, then blocking a Snapcaster with Lifelink and Deathtouching Boros Reckoner only to dome him instead of Resto. Granted this was game 2, he managed to sneak in with double Resto to my Rakdos's Return and beat face. Close games, but I punted games 2 and 3 without a doubt.
Round 4 was RG Aggro. Boros Reckoner and Rolling Temblor lead into Gideon to end game 1. Game 2 Obzedat against his slow draw was enough.
Round 5 was against Junk Tokens. Intangible Virtue is rough. Because Temblor does not hit most of host tokens, I am left trying to race or trade. Game 1 he swarmed me with fliers. Handing reckoners online and pitching Temblor early to looting, I just could not keep up. Game 2 was closed out with Gideon and Reckoners. He could not remove Gideon with Selesnya Charm because he did not draw it and was left chuping Gideon until he just ran out of blockers. Game 3 we both flooded. After laying down 18 land, I was able to bleed him out with Obzedat who could not swing into his giant token. When he was within range, I dropped Aurelia after a sweep and went to town.
2nd for the 2nd week in a row has me wanting to take this deck next week. It is incredibly solid and barring Aggro but draws and punting plays, I am certain I will be able to take it down next week and maybe take the deck to play for a case on the weekend. We shall see.
I like your most recent DL and I feel it is the most controlling you have made it so far. There are a few cards I do not fully understand, and maybe you can tell me why?
Faithless Looting- Here I would play Sign in Blood, I know it is 2 black, but there is no discarding needed. Also, I have used Sign in Blood Late game for the finishing 2 damage to an opponent before as well.
Thundermaw Hellkite- He is competing with Obzedats spot. He is probably easier to cast, but at the point where you cast either of them you probably want to have board control anyways. I think Obzedat stabilizes better and is only suseptable to instant removal.
Have you thought about Blasphemous Act at all as another board wipe? it can be good against aggro and midrange because they are playing lots of creatures so the cost will usually be cheap. And its always a plus with your own reckoner on the field. And what about searing spear as it doubles as removal and reach?
I also feel like this deck could die if you went into top deck mode. What about some Underworld Connections in the side v. Control?
The color of the mana is really not that relevant. BB is definately reasonable. But 1 mana and 2 mana is a big deal. Lingering Souls is saving you life and it sets up your turns 2 and 3. Lingering Souls on turn 2 can be such a strong play if you have Reckoner or Temblor in hand. It is not about raw drawing power, it is about set up and tricks.
Obzedat and Thundermaw serve different roles and do different things. Obzedat Is much more defensive and Hellkite is more offensive.
Aggro is usually dispatched fairly easily between all the tools we already have, BA just seems slow since we are already halting their board state early on..
Hardly ever found myself in top deck mode. But even when I did I was either removing things or overpowering them. Which I why I took out my UC.
thanks for finding our thread then posting this man! greatly appreciated
have you considered unburial rites? it has nice synergy with faithless looting, and can be very good in the esper control matchup (because they basically mill you into more threats).
also, has 4 gideon ever seemed like too many to you?
with the current amount of stupidfast aggro decks, is liliana of the veil good enough to warrant mainboard slots? she seems kinda underwhelming against decks that will kill her after you play her (and probably -2 her). i could see her +1 working too, making them lose a card that they really need, and focusing more of their attacks on her, or extra cards like pump spells if they only have 3 power on board when you +1 her.
have you considered using tragic slip? this card has been an absolute allstar for me in sooo very many different matchups. against any aggro deck its a real kick in the face.
how has aurelia's fury been for you? i havent really tested this card, and im curious about how good it is, and where you side it in. do you ever use it against control for the silence effect?
is 3 slaughter games too many? sometimes i feel like the second one i cast would be better off as something else.
reckoner is absolutely not only worth it, but HUGE in every aggro matchup. not using them is a 100% mistake. they arent overhyped at all, they are incredible!
trust me. if they dont have the removal, this ONE GUY will brickwall a LOT of attacks, and make people wish they werent playing these mindless HURRDURR ATTACK YOU! decks.
Esper already struggles in the match because most of their removal is completely dead to Gideon and Obzedat, and all they can really do game 2 is speed themselves up. So what do they do when you Slaughter Games their catalyst? They die the same way they did game 1. This deck already has too much inevitability to it (my list). I also only run 3 Faithless looting which isn't enough for me to want to scrap 2 slots for a card I don't actually need. But I have considered it, just never felt the need for it or the as t for it.
Nope. If I ever have excess they are looting fodder. 4 is perfect. I tried less, and lost more. He closes too many games and having him on turn 4 or 5 is pretty important.
She is there for midrange and control as well as slow draws for Aggro. 2 seems right, I only side in the 3rd for control really. I don't see myself ever cutting her. Her role is pretty essential in either stealing the control game early or staving off midrange beats, where our hardest match is.
Pillar is more effective for me. Because I have enough removal for larger creatures, in the early game I need to get rid of X/2 dudes for cheap and save my better removal for later. I don't have dudes to throw under the bus for Morbid and if I want a 2 for 1 then Temblor, Liliana (to an extent), hater in blood, Reckoner, and eviction do the job just fine without diminishing my board presence or hand size. Slip requires too much work when we have Pillar, Dreadbore and Orzhov charm available to us.
"This card wins so many games!" Said no one, ever. It is coming out as soon as I figure out what I want that slot to be. It is just a piss poor card.
I have 3 because it is crucial that I see it for turn 4. I can't afford to let them land Thragtusks or JMA. They are too hard to deal with and if I can get them out of the way, the matches become gravy.
i dont know, the esper matchup can be kinda hard if they draw well. between counterspells, and azorius charm, and devour flesh, they have a lot of ways to deal with our spells that are pretty clunky in general. if they do this while keeping ahead in card advantage via think twice, and especially their game 1 sphinx's revelations, they can win pretty easily.
thundermaw is probably pretty huge against them i would imagine, as their azorius charms wont help them as much.
i also considered devil's play against them. any thoughts on that card? its probably too slow, and a creature or another gideon is likely better, but its intriguing that they could drownyard themselves into my devil's play for late game. its also not half bad in other matchups.
They simply do not have the resources to counter and mill for a good percentage of the game, they have to choose between one or the other. Because the threat density in this match is so heavy, 18 cards (virtually 22) we not only out do their counter deleting sly easy, but we also are able to start dropping thugs back to back which helps us if we are in an attrition war when looking at things card for card. You can ride out Lingering Souls and reckoners for the early stages of the game then hinder their milling by continuously dropping down threats and bleeding them out. If you know Azorius Charm and Devour Flesh are probably in hand, Gideon can just keep ticking up to threaten the game all the same. They do not have the resources to outlast us with any sort of consistency. At least not in any of my testing, and Esper is one of my more tested matches because my buddy is all about that deck right now and he is in no stretch a bad player.
As far as Devil's Play goes, I would probably run Fury in that match simply because it domes and shuts off spells.
I Brought my deck to gameday couple weeks back and played two different Esper decks and both had trouble keeping up to the threats my deck had.
For those interested here is the list I'm currently running.
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Olivia Voldaren
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Angel of Serenity
Sorceries ( 19 )
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Dreadbore
2 Unburial Rites
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Ultimate Price
Lands ( 25 )
4 Blood Crypt
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Godless Shrine
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Isolated Chapel
2 Slayers' Stronghold
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Rest in Peace
2 Slaughter Games
1 Dreadbore
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Rolling Tumbler
Cards I've been trying to fit in are
liliana of the veil
Gideon, Champion of Justice
And considering moving the Nighthawks to the main.
WBRDega MidrangeRBW
I also like Mizzium Mortars on paper. How is it working? I like Merciless Eviction because it has application against more than just creatures.
I went 4-1 Friday with this deck with my only loss being to Humanimator. Wins were against, UWR flash, BW exalted brew, Naya Midrange, and Naya blitz (razor thin margin of error here).
I am not running the liliana due to not having any but replaced her with more removal. I feel like something is missing though and I am not sure what to change. Gideon was amazing in every game I used him. I feel like orzhov charm is the weakest card here but even that I used to close out games.
EDIT
I will be updating the OP tomorrow folks.
I love Mizzium mortars. In my deck I wanted to go up to 3 but Boros Reckoner is a card after all.
WBRDega MidrangeRBW
I run them side by side as 3 Obzedat and 2 Thundermaw Hellkite.
The reason why is because Thundermaw Hellkite is more of a finisher where Obzedate is more of a stabilization piece. Against Aggro and Control, Obzedat is King. Against Midrange, Thundermaw Hellkite does far more work.
I think that the decks strong is that it has almost 100% MUST answer threats and attacks from a whole bunch of different angles, i mean untapping with a board of 2-4 tokens of lingering souls protecting a gideon with 6-8 loyalty, having an Obzedat entering that turn, drawing an aurelia and casting a Rakdos's Return for 3 or 4 seems unstoppable.
Still don´t have time to test or money to buy the cards, but will definitely be playing this
Decklist
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Sorceries ( 21 )
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lingering Souls
2 Searing Spear
3 Rakdos's Return
2 Dreadbore
3 Rolling temblor
2 Ultimate price / Tragic Slip
3 Rakdos Keyrune
Others (3)
3 Gideon, Champion of justice
Lands ( 25 )
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Rest in peace
3 Slaughter Games
1 Dreadbore
1 Liliana of the veil
2 Aurelia´s fury
3 Other stuff
I´m not sure about playing Ultimate price or tragic slip. Ultimate price kills every mono red deck creature, restoration angel tragtusk (kind of), and tragic slip kills reckoner, aristocrat, early dudes, late game dudes whenever a lingering soul token dies or something.
I´m playing keyrune because it´s the best card i could think of to kill thragtusk and topdecked Avacyn Pilgrim late game when you´re low on life and they´ve got a wolf run. It also kills most creatures and can bother control a bit pre board as well as ramp into a turn 4 Obzedat or Return for 3. Additionally it ramps into Mortars as well.
The thing i´m worried the most about is having 3 Temblor main against aggro, beacause i would have 3 completely dead cards against control, which kind of makes me want to take them out but that leaves me pretty exposed to turn 1 stromkirk noble t2 ash zealot. All of this kind of makes me HAVE to play reckoner, a card i don´t even really like at all.
The sideboard is still under construction, but will eventually get there.
I do however want suggestions on sideboarding mainly against control. So against control i think that the best cards are:
Aurelia: Surprise 6+ damage that can kind of withstand a charm seems ok
Gideon: Very important kill condition. Basically it you +1 and there on out you activate for 0 that´s it.
Rakdos return: Backbreaking. To be played as fast as possible
liliana: Demands a detention sphere while tearing their hand appart, hurts us less if we´ve got lingering souls
Slaughter games: Very powerful pretty much never dead card against control. Most important targets i think are Detention sphere,Sphinx´s revelation and last but not least azorius charm.
Other cards that could be good are
Obzedat: It DOES not get killed by the verdict or sphere but DOES have to attack to be good. Leaving it back to drain doesn´t seem like an option to me (depends on the board state obviously). I´d still keep it in i guess.
lingering souls: Isn´t that awesome against control i think. unless paired with liliana or maybe aurelia.
Aurelia´s fury: This might be good. The idea is to probably fireball them so that you can get in with gideon that turn and have them play on the tip of their toes.
keyrune: Surprise 3/1 of 5/1 hitter (with stronghold) that could steal some life from the opponent. Still might just get detention sphered
Cards that are problematic against us i think are:
How would the following sideboard look?
-3 mizzium mortars
-3 rolling temblor
-2 Ultimate price/traic slip
+1 liliana of the veil
+3 slaughter games
+2 Aurelia´s Fury
+2 something else (?)
A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
Temblor has been an all star main for me. Probably because our threats are just hard for Esper and other control decks to continuously deal with and all of them are extremely potent against control.
I also like to take advantage of the strong removal we have in Dreadbore and Orzhov Charm. They don't require anything to kill creatures other than the occasional life loss which I never have been sad to pay. I have been debating going up to 3 charms. I don't like how I can sometimes have null targets with slip, spear and price. Dreadbore and Charm help me ensure whatever I need to kill can be killed without question.
As far as the SB, I can tell you Aurelia's Fury is not as good as it seems. Every time I have seen it I just feel like it is always so-so. Never sad and never relieved. I will be cutting it as it is just too bland for me.
Our damage output is much higher than Jund. Our removal is also better than jund and with Boros Reckoner, our game against midrange is easier. Bonefire was one of the first cuts I ever made in testing before I posted the thread. We just have better things to be doing.