I like the idea of dropping 1 rancor and adding a couple spectral flight.
I am pretty sold on invisible stalker honestly, I did however add restoration angel to the mix to put some additional bodies on the board and draw more cards off visionary. I have only played a few games with her so I don't want to say anything definitive yet, but she seems strong.
My close friend has been playing a bant list that has been giving my bant control list extreme problems. ill try to get it up later. anyway invisible stalker is the real deal. also id vouch about the efficiency of a card like increasing savagery. it hastens your clock by a lot.
lastly if u are going to have a spot for a non hexproof creature, i believe it should be a mana dork or mwonuli beast tracker, which helps u tutor for geist sigarda lone revenant or stalker depending on what threat u play.
Interesting idea with the tracker. Another possible interaction the resto angel. And speaking of angels, I can't help but suggest the possibility of Serra Avenger. My love for this card makes me really biased on it, but if I suggest it a few hundred times maybe someone will agree with me someday Could this be the deck for her?
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If you always do what you always did, then you'll always get what you always got.
I want to find space for judge's familiar. he is a relevant tempo play in all matchups -- whether he prevent ur aggressive opponents or guarantee that u resolve a hexproof threat, he is ridiculously good early. also, u can just put Rancor or ethereal armor and go to town anyway. im opting dropping somethin in my list to make room for him. the color requirement is one turns me off. maybe when we geistt breeding pool it will be better. anyway my List...
// Deck: hexalted (60)
// Lands
3 Cathedral of War
2 Forest
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
// Creatures
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Bruna, Light of Alabaster
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Invisible Stalker
3 Mwonvuli Beast Tracker
Cathedral of war seems a little out of place but I assure you it is a pretty decent drop. You do have abundant growth so more often than not, it isn't just a dead land. 3 may not be right, but I do want at least 2.
avacyn's pilgrim - turn 1 pilgrim usually means turn 2 geist. that's pretty necessary.
GOST and Invisible stalker - core to the deck i believe. Invisible stalker may be "better" than geist. It is unblockable. you can just avoid your opponent completely. That's a big thing vs other aggro decks that use mid game creatures like thragtusk to stabilize. U can just go over the top. Geist is of course a great card as well. first strike and a few more damage on a geist make it a force to be reckoned with obviously.
Bruna - I have a single copy in here just in case the game goes REAAAAl late. Would be a cute way to recur righteous authority and ethereal armors from teh graveyard. It also means that playing rancor/armor on your mana dorks becomes a halfway decent play.
Mwonluvi beast tracker - testing this out. I had loxodon smiter in the slot (which i didn't care too much for). if i take this out, I'd put in judge's familiar here. Anyway, effectively becomes your geist/stalker/sigarda tutor.
Azorius/selesnya charms - I've gone wiht the 3/3 split here. Selesnya is great early for killing a planeswalker or just mitigating aggressive decks. Also decent top deck against angel of serenity/thragtusk/big ass olivias etc. Azorius charm is more of a late game play. sure it can be used to slow your opponent down by bouncing a creature, however, the two other abilities are much more relevant. late game cantrip OR help gain life against aggressive decks, and swing tempo in your favor.
Divination - it could be somethign else in this spot like feeling of dread. I just feel taht at 22 lands, this deck needs to smooth out draws, even with a small curve. diviniation seems ok.
righteous authority - a solid one of. Maybe too cute, but even if its late game and u only have 1 card, the extra draw is great. Also, holding lands in hand late make pulling lands decent
Increasing savagery - if you aren't playing this you should be. Geist/stalker into this by turn 4 or 5 is good game. almost impossible to lose a start like that unless your opponent is playing supreme verdict or top decks terminus. nothing else can answer that at any point prior to 6 mana on the table.
sideboard should be pretty obvious i guess.
I really like the idea of this deck, as a matter of fact its what I have been trying to build in U/W. I never even thought to add green making it better.
Just suggestion.
I feel it needs something early game, esp. with talk of so much aggro. A sold turn two drop like Call of the Conclave or Precinct Captain would make me feel better about it.
Having all the cantrips is really nice, its great to draw cards but to be honest I dont like Elvish Visionary. Unless someone can change my thoughts its just a wasted body that draws, maybe replace him for a better two drop?
I agree with Cathedral of War even if just a 1 or 2 of. With the growth it does not seem like it will hurt much.
I'm going to put something similar togeatehr and try it out.
****What are the plans for dealing with Liliana???
I really like the idea of this deck, as a matter of fact its what I have been trying to build in U/W. I never even thought to add green making it better.
Just suggestion.
I feel it needs something early game, esp. with talk of so much aggro. A sold turn two drop like Call of the Conclave or Precinct Captain would make me feel better about it.
Having all the cantrips is really nice, its great to draw cards but to be honest I dont like Elvish Visionary. Unless someone can change my thoughts its just a wasted body that draws, maybe replace him for a better two drop?
I agree with Cathedral of War even if just a 1 or 2 of. With the growth it does not seem like it will hurt much.
I'm going to put something similar togeatehr and try it out.
****What are the plans for dealing with Liliana???
three drop lili? loxodon smiter out of the sideboard deals with that fairly nicely. also sigarda. taht's why i like mwonluvi tracker. helps u get those out quick...
I too don't like elvish visionary in this list. another draw is nothing. also a 1/1 body is nothing. I much rather have a gatecreeper vine to help me fix my mana base over elvish visionary. even then, i still dont' want gatecreeper vine lol.
I'd say take a look at feeling of dread if you really want soemthing to fill the 2 drop slot and already have charms. FoD is basically a timewalk against most aggro decks on turns 2-3
Loxodon does sound good but I want to try befor I commit to him. As for the tracker; yea its nice but I feel its another dead body. Maybe for 2 cmc I'm sold but I want better plans for a 3 drop.
Dont forget, Abundant Growth is a mana fixer so skip the Gatecreeper.
@Sephyro
I read threw your list a second time to evaluate it. I like it, but I feel your limiting the hexproof availability to only 5 creatures. When it comes to the enchantments I think it would be best to place them on the creatures less likly to die.
So I guess my question is did you find yourself losing a lot of the enchantment power applying them to the captain an angel? Maybe rancor always comes back but the armor and flight holds better on Stalker/Gost and turn 5 Sigarda(the backup IMO) Since you place well I suppose it didnt hurt too much.
Resto Angel is such a good card its hard to pass up, although I was thinking Lyev Skynight instad. Really helps with the tempo but a 3/1 is tough. Thoughts on him?
I've been developing for about 2 weeks and I've been talking to Bonerfleximus in PMs a little bit too.
First - I agree that some of the lists here are stretching into Bant Midrange territory. I don't see anything wrong with that - as a matter of fact my version of Bant Enchant isn't tempo at all - it's a control build. This is a tempo build however.
I think it's a mistake to put creatures in the tempo version that aren't hexproof. Elvish Visionary gets a pass because it's a cantrip. The white weenie creatures and the first strikers do not. All you're doing is giving your opponent a target for their creature removal spells.
If Invisible Stalker isn't doing it for you then you probably aren't running enough enchantments to make Ethereal Armor good. I run 20 enchantments in mine and I've never seen Ethereal Armor worth less than +2/+2 with +3/+3 the most common and +4/+4 a regular occurrence. If one of those other enchantments is another Ethereal armor then your Stalker is probably swinging for 6 or more. Same basic story if you have 1 Armor and 1 Rancor.
What I'm saying is that if your Stalker seems too puny to get the job done then it's because you've drifted too far from the core concept. You can add cards like Inaction/Injunction because they cantrip and therefore cycle you closer to the enchantments that you do have. You can't add a bunch of irrelevant creatures and then complain that Ethereal Armor only gives +1/+1. The cards aren't working for you because you're drifting away from the concept.
I've been developing for about 2 weeks and I've been talking to Bonerfleximus in PMs a little bit too.
First - I agree that some of the lists here are stretching into Bant Midrange territory. I don't see anything wrong with that - as a matter of fact my version of Bant Enchant isn't tempo at all - it's a control build. This is a tempo build however.
I think it's a mistake to put creatures in the tempo version that aren't hexproof. Elvish Visionary gets a pass because it's a cantrip. The white weenie creatures and the first strikers do not. All you're doing is giving your opponent a target for their creature removal spells.
If Invisible Stalker isn't doing it for you then you probably aren't running enough enchantments to make Ethereal Armor good. I run 20 enchantments in mine and I've never seen Ethereal Armor worth less than +2/+2 with +3/+3 the most common and +4/+4 a regular occurrence. If one of those other enchantments is another Ethereal armor then your Stalker is probably swinging for 6 or more. Same basic story if you have 1 Armor and 1 Rancor.
What I'm saying is that if your Stalker seems too puny to get the job done then it's because you've drifted too far from the core concept. You can add cards like Inaction/Injunction because they cantrip and therefore cycle you closer to the enchantments that you do have. You can't add a bunch of irrelevant creatures and then complain that Ethereal Armor only gives +1/+1. The cards aren't working for you because you're drifting away from the concept.
Thank you, people are really losing sight of what this forum and deck is about. I am currently at work but I will post my deck later today . Currently it is 11-1 in a competitive setting and I have just made some final tweaks that make it competitive as hell. I beat the new frites, gw aggro, uwr control, rakdos just yesterday with most of them 2-0 . there is hope for this deck to be tier 1
I ran a round (preboard) against Rakdos Zombies last night and it wasn't pretty. I won 3 out of the 10. On the play, he has 3 2/2's on turn two before I drop a 2nd land and a non blocking Invisible Stalker. No bueno. Probably going to retool a little to have a better game one against aggro. No deck can afford to throw away 2 out of 3 first games in a PTQ due to "bad match ups and lousy luck."
Notes:
Hexproof is awesome. He ended most games throwing Pillar of Flame at my head with a hand full Tragic Slip.
I ran a round (preboard) against Rakdos Zombies last night and it wasn't pretty. I won 3 out of the 10. On the play, he has 3 2/2's on turn two before I drop a 2nd land and a non blocking Invisible Stalker. No bueno. Probably going to retool a little to have a better game one against aggro. No deck can afford to throw away 2 out of 3 first games in a PTQ due to "bad match ups and lousy luck."
Notes:
Hexproof is awesome. He ended most games throwing Pillar of Flame at my head with a hand full Tragic Slip.
Thanks for the report. I was expecting that zombies would be tough but thats a little bit worse than i'd hoped.
Thoughts? Anyone?
It seems that something must be done to improve this matchup after all. I propose knight of glory. Pro-black is relevant in many ways. The single white in the casting cost helps. Exalted can help in a race. The only problem is the toughness and the lack of first strike but ethereal armor solves both of those problems. Since lightning bolt and incinerate aren't in the format you only need to get the toughness above 2. Easy enough if you have ethereal armor.
Judge's Familiar seems insane in here, evasion and he can prevent them from playing impact cards a turn later if not more if u have another on field (plus it combos with Rancor :))
Here is the deck I am taking for FNM. This is the list I have come to with lots of playtesting and it has a 11-1 tournament record so far against competitive decks. I will post detail results after the tournament.
Judge's familiar was in my first build. Cut because i forget why. Still seems like a possibility but i really think creatures need to be hard to kill.
Which leads me into a question. Cathedral of war.
I normally dont like the card. The downsides are pretty steep. Hinders mana fixing and slows the tempo.
In this case it MIGHT be okay though. Reasons:
1. Mana fixing is going to be pretty good already with abundant growth and the frequency of draw-go plays that this deck sometimes makes.
2. No other first turn plays therefore no downside to dropping it first turn.
3. Stalker races just a little bit faster.
4. GoST is just a little bit more formidable in attack.
5. Even elvish visionary can get into the action.
Here is the deck I am taking for FNM. This is the list I have come to with lots of playtesting and it has a 11-1 tournament record so far against competitive decks. I will post detail results after the tournament.
Please give us the full report! I am looking forward to what you have to say about it.
Does Exalted from Cathedral work with GosT considering he's attacking with an angel? Only one attacker is declared so if someone can clarify that for me that would be cool.
I'm going to try using either Elite Inquisitor, Captain or Conclave call for a turn two. It needs that extra body to either block for swing an attack if you don't have your turn two Stalker. Inquisitor is helpful in both areas and can be a hero with a Rancor.
I will also like to know how that list runs for you. It looks nice and I also like to know how helpful Jace is so keep us updated please.
Cathedrals are just a test case. I had to expand the mana-base a little bit to accomodate them however so Inaction Injunction was taken out. Then Knight of Glory in place of Elvish Visionary. Also took out Ajani, added Sigarda and took out one Geist. Slower than the base deck template but Knight of Glory also gives more early game presence.
For reference I present the control version. This is even slower. It works better against a few match-ups but worse against others. I wouldn't recommend playing it like this because it really is a slow deck. The Rogue's Passage is an interesting idea though. Definitely helps the Geist get through.
Had some fun tonight. Beat B/G Zombies, B/R Zombies and U/W Miracle Control. Split 1st and 2nd with U/W Spirits. B/G had to be a chump list. B/R came out of the gate and both games were won with last second top decks for insane dmgs. U/W never stood a chance. Played for fun against Jund and the spirit deck. Mixed results.
Having a Negate in hand gave me complete dominance over miracles
Wins against Rakdos Zombie were down to a single life points. Scary, scary match up. Might as well start at 10 life and begin praying for limited burn aimed at your head.
Never surrender. The next card could be the answer. I swung him from 18 to 0 in one shot with a lucky draw.
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If you always do what you always did, then you'll always get what you always got.
Bruna is too cute. Plus she doesn't carry the necessary hexproof her cheaper sister does.
I kinda like the bonds of faith idea. Definitely worth considering.
An interesting addition was mention of Wolfir Avenger. Its a solid body and stuffs the aggro. It has survivability and the surprise factor. Its pretty scary as a 5/3 trample regen. The 2x green in the cost isn't peachy, but its manageable. Any thoughts
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I was actually considering the same on the Avenger, but wondering how well double green would play. Plus, after playing my Troll I'm loving regeneration more and more. Many people seem to favor and use Centur healer as a three drop, I was considering trying him out as well.
My issue with bonds of faith is if Resto is around she can blink the target to remove it. You also have to worry about the sac. outlets zombies have available. It also hinters enemy humans. I'm willing to try a couple but to me there seems too many risk.
I see some have moved away from Ajani which I think is a mistake. He adds a nice touch at his -3 although I have not played with Jace so I cant compare.
I didnt think Beast Tracker would help, sorry to here. I do like Sigarda a lot and think a third might be in action. The legend heavy creature base may hinder a bit but then again I should not have more then a creature or two out there.
I'm going to try Azorius charm over Selesnya, I think it will be a big help. Im afraid it might put me in the control direction but that is not my intent. I love the card; getting rid of a creature and in some ways deny opponents draw I feel will help the tempo.
All this time I didn't realize that the Invisible Stalker has creature type Human. I kept wondering why use Bonds of Faith. Stupid me.
Well that makes it a lot more interesting to me. It's not great for creature control but it's another enchantment to help you race. Now I'm even more convinced that the answer to the early creature problems is to run Knight of Glory.
Other possibilities that haven't been discussed (to the best of my knowledge) Curiosity - if you're running an unblockable hexproof you might as well draw some cards right? Divine Favor - +1/+3, then gain 3 life in addition to the creature buff. Ghostly Touch - Could help in maintaining tempo. Tap or untap upon attack. Spectral Flight - For those who worry about flying. +2/+2 Triumph of Ferocity - Another card drawing avenue.
Curiosity and Triumph of Ferocity - let's discuss.
The cantrips help but a pure card drawing engine is also of great interest. How often does your opponent have a creature that has more power than an Invisible Stalker or a Knight of Glory would have if you have any two enchantments on it?
Invis plus Ethereal plus Rancor = 5 power
Knight plus Bonds plus Rancor = 6 power
Invis plus Ethereal plus Bonds = 5 power
That's for Triumph of Ferocity. Curiosity has a different condition but it's easy to fulfill with an Invisible Stalker. Unfortunately that might be the only time when it's easy to fulfill.
I'm new to this archetype but I sleeved up a list and tested it out against Jund and Zombies and I'm now convinced of it's power. I don't understand why I don't see more people playing with Azorius Charm and Increasing Savagery. The interaction between the charm and Rancor is insane; declare your attacks, and if they block just charm it to the top and they still take all the trample damage. Savagery just wins games and you can use it twice.
It depends on your ends I think. Some of us are leaning tempo-ish, some mid-range and I personally have been playing a control build (while trying to discuss the tempo build)
I tried the Azorius Charm but it didn't help me. I could see it helping other versions of this.
It depends on your ends I think. Some of us are leaning tempo-ish, some mid-range and I personally have been playing a control build (while trying to discuss the tempo build)
I tried the Azorius Charm but it didn't help me. I could see it helping other versions of this.
Ive been busy with family stuff but im gonna start grinding this archetype a lot when I get back. I'll try and summarize all the discussion points in one place too for any newcomers. A lot of cards have been mentioned multiple times and what's good will depend on how the meta develops more than anything
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My close friend has been playing a bant list that has been giving my bant control list extreme problems. ill try to get it up later. anyway invisible stalker is the real deal. also id vouch about the efficiency of a card like increasing savagery. it hastens your clock by a lot.
lastly if u are going to have a spot for a non hexproof creature, i believe it should be a mana dork or mwonuli beast tracker, which helps u tutor for geist sigarda lone revenant or stalker depending on what threat u play.
// Deck: hexalted (60)
// Lands
3 Cathedral of War
2 Forest
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
// Creatures
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Bruna, Light of Alabaster
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Invisible Stalker
3 Mwonvuli Beast Tracker
// Spells
4 Abundant Growth
3 Azorius Charm
2 Divination
3 Ethereal Armor
3 Increasing Savagery
3 Rancor
1 Righteous Authority
3 Selesnya Charm
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Detention Sphere
SB: 3 Divine Reckoning
SB: 3 Loxodon Smiter
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Sundering Growth
My thoughts on some cards
Cathedral of war seems a little out of place but I assure you it is a pretty decent drop. You do have abundant growth so more often than not, it isn't just a dead land. 3 may not be right, but I do want at least 2.
avacyn's pilgrim - turn 1 pilgrim usually means turn 2 geist. that's pretty necessary.
GOST and Invisible stalker - core to the deck i believe. Invisible stalker may be "better" than geist. It is unblockable. you can just avoid your opponent completely. That's a big thing vs other aggro decks that use mid game creatures like thragtusk to stabilize. U can just go over the top. Geist is of course a great card as well. first strike and a few more damage on a geist make it a force to be reckoned with obviously.
Bruna - I have a single copy in here just in case the game goes REAAAAl late. Would be a cute way to recur righteous authority and ethereal armors from teh graveyard. It also means that playing rancor/armor on your mana dorks becomes a halfway decent play.
Mwonluvi beast tracker - testing this out. I had loxodon smiter in the slot (which i didn't care too much for). if i take this out, I'd put in judge's familiar here. Anyway, effectively becomes your geist/stalker/sigarda tutor.
Azorius/selesnya charms - I've gone wiht the 3/3 split here. Selesnya is great early for killing a planeswalker or just mitigating aggressive decks. Also decent top deck against angel of serenity/thragtusk/big ass olivias etc. Azorius charm is more of a late game play. sure it can be used to slow your opponent down by bouncing a creature, however, the two other abilities are much more relevant. late game cantrip OR help gain life against aggressive decks, and swing tempo in your favor.
Divination - it could be somethign else in this spot like feeling of dread. I just feel taht at 22 lands, this deck needs to smooth out draws, even with a small curve. diviniation seems ok.
righteous authority - a solid one of. Maybe too cute, but even if its late game and u only have 1 card, the extra draw is great. Also, holding lands in hand late make pulling lands decent
Increasing savagery - if you aren't playing this you should be. Geist/stalker into this by turn 4 or 5 is good game. almost impossible to lose a start like that unless your opponent is playing supreme verdict or top decks terminus. nothing else can answer that at any point prior to 6 mana on the table.
sideboard should be pretty obvious i guess.
Just suggestion.
I feel it needs something early game, esp. with talk of so much aggro. A sold turn two drop like Call of the Conclave or Precinct Captain would make me feel better about it.
Having all the cantrips is really nice, its great to draw cards but to be honest I dont like Elvish Visionary. Unless someone can change my thoughts its just a wasted body that draws, maybe replace him for a better two drop?
I agree with Cathedral of War even if just a 1 or 2 of. With the growth it does not seem like it will hurt much.
I'm going to put something similar togeatehr and try it out.
****What are the plans for dealing with Liliana???
three drop lili? loxodon smiter out of the sideboard deals with that fairly nicely. also sigarda. taht's why i like mwonluvi tracker. helps u get those out quick...
I too don't like elvish visionary in this list. another draw is nothing. also a 1/1 body is nothing. I much rather have a gatecreeper vine to help me fix my mana base over elvish visionary. even then, i still dont' want gatecreeper vine lol.
I'd say take a look at feeling of dread if you really want soemthing to fill the 2 drop slot and already have charms. FoD is basically a timewalk against most aggro decks on turns 2-3
Dont forget, Abundant Growth is a mana fixer so skip the Gatecreeper.
@Sephyro
I read threw your list a second time to evaluate it. I like it, but I feel your limiting the hexproof availability to only 5 creatures. When it comes to the enchantments I think it would be best to place them on the creatures less likly to die.
So I guess my question is did you find yourself losing a lot of the enchantment power applying them to the captain an angel? Maybe rancor always comes back but the armor and flight holds better on Stalker/Gost and turn 5 Sigarda(the backup IMO) Since you place well I suppose it didnt hurt too much.
Resto Angel is such a good card its hard to pass up, although I was thinking Lyev Skynight instad. Really helps with the tempo but a 3/1 is tough. Thoughts on him?
First - I agree that some of the lists here are stretching into Bant Midrange territory. I don't see anything wrong with that - as a matter of fact my version of Bant Enchant isn't tempo at all - it's a control build. This is a tempo build however.
I think it's a mistake to put creatures in the tempo version that aren't hexproof. Elvish Visionary gets a pass because it's a cantrip. The white weenie creatures and the first strikers do not. All you're doing is giving your opponent a target for their creature removal spells.
If Invisible Stalker isn't doing it for you then you probably aren't running enough enchantments to make Ethereal Armor good. I run 20 enchantments in mine and I've never seen Ethereal Armor worth less than +2/+2 with +3/+3 the most common and +4/+4 a regular occurrence. If one of those other enchantments is another Ethereal armor then your Stalker is probably swinging for 6 or more. Same basic story if you have 1 Armor and 1 Rancor.
What I'm saying is that if your Stalker seems too puny to get the job done then it's because you've drifted too far from the core concept. You can add cards like Inaction/Injunction because they cantrip and therefore cycle you closer to the enchantments that you do have. You can't add a bunch of irrelevant creatures and then complain that Ethereal Armor only gives +1/+1. The cards aren't working for you because you're drifting away from the concept.
Thank you, people are really losing sight of what this forum and deck is about. I am currently at work but I will post my deck later today . Currently it is 11-1 in a competitive setting and I have just made some final tweaks that make it competitive as hell. I beat the new frites, gw aggro, uwr control, rakdos just yesterday with most of them 2-0 . there is hope for this deck to be tier 1
Notes:
Hexproof is awesome. He ended most games throwing Pillar of Flame at my head with a hand full Tragic Slip.
Won every game I drew Feeling of Dread.
Blood Artist is a jerk and makes me miss Gut Shot
Thanks for the report. I was expecting that zombies would be tough but thats a little bit worse than i'd hoped.
Thoughts? Anyone?
It seems that something must be done to improve this matchup after all. I propose knight of glory. Pro-black is relevant in many ways. The single white in the casting cost helps. Exalted can help in a race. The only problem is the toughness and the lack of first strike but ethereal armor solves both of those problems. Since lightning bolt and incinerate aren't in the format you only need to get the toughness above 2. Easy enough if you have ethereal armor.
Feeling of Dread is insane in general right now
Here is the deck I am taking for FNM. This is the list I have come to with lots of playtesting and it has a 11-1 tournament record so far against competitive decks. I will post detail results after the tournament.
Which leads me into a question. Cathedral of war.
I normally dont like the card. The downsides are pretty steep. Hinders mana fixing and slows the tempo.
In this case it MIGHT be okay though. Reasons:
1. Mana fixing is going to be pretty good already with abundant growth and the frequency of draw-go plays that this deck sometimes makes.
2. No other first turn plays therefore no downside to dropping it first turn.
3. Stalker races just a little bit faster.
4. GoST is just a little bit more formidable in attack.
5. Even elvish visionary can get into the action.
Please give us the full report! I am looking forward to what you have to say about it.
I'm going to try using either Elite Inquisitor, Captain or Conclave call for a turn two. It needs that extra body to either block for swing an attack if you don't have your turn two Stalker. Inquisitor is helpful in both areas and can be a hero with a Rancor.
I will also like to know how that list runs for you. It looks nice and I also like to know how helpful Jace is so keep us updated please.
4x Rancor
4x Ethereal Armor
3x Detention Sphere
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Abundant Growth
3x Feeling of Dread
2x Divine Reckoning
4x Knight of Glory
4x Invisible Stalker
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Sigarda, Host of Herons
Land (24)
4x Temple Garden
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Glacial Fortress
3x Forest
3x Island
4x Cathedral of War
Cathedrals are just a test case. I had to expand the mana-base a little bit to accomodate them however so Inaction Injunction was taken out. Then Knight of Glory in place of Elvish Visionary. Also took out Ajani, added Sigarda and took out one Geist. Slower than the base deck template but Knight of Glory also gives more early game presence.
For reference I present the control version. This is even slower. It works better against a few match-ups but worse against others. I wouldn't recommend playing it like this because it really is a slow deck. The Rogue's Passage is an interesting idea though. Definitely helps the Geist get through.
4x Rancor
4x Ethereal Armor
4x Detention Sphere
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Arrest
4x Syncopate
2x Dissipate
Creatures
4x Invisible Stalker
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Sigarda Host of Herons
4x Temple Garden
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Plains
3x Island
3x Rogue's Passage
Notes
I was laughably destroyed by Geist of Saint Traft. Drew every non-answer.
Having a Negate in hand gave me complete dominance over miracles
Wins against Rakdos Zombie were down to a single life points. Scary, scary match up. Might as well start at 10 life and begin praying for limited burn aimed at your head.
Never surrender. The next card could be the answer. I swung him from 18 to 0 in one shot with a lucky draw.
Too cute?
Too late?
I kinda like the bonds of faith idea. Definitely worth considering.
An interesting addition was mention of Wolfir Avenger. Its a solid body and stuffs the aggro. It has survivability and the surprise factor. Its pretty scary as a 5/3 trample regen. The 2x green in the cost isn't peachy, but its manageable. Any thoughts
My issue with bonds of faith is if Resto is around she can blink the target to remove it. You also have to worry about the sac. outlets zombies have available. It also hinters enemy humans. I'm willing to try a couple but to me there seems too many risk.
I see some have moved away from Ajani which I think is a mistake. He adds a nice touch at his -3 although I have not played with Jace so I cant compare.
I didnt think Beast Tracker would help, sorry to here. I do like Sigarda a lot and think a third might be in action. The legend heavy creature base may hinder a bit but then again I should not have more then a creature or two out there.
I'm going to try Azorius charm over Selesnya, I think it will be a big help. Im afraid it might put me in the control direction but that is not my intent. I love the card; getting rid of a creature and in some ways deny opponents draw I feel will help the tempo.
Well that makes it a lot more interesting to me. It's not great for creature control but it's another enchantment to help you race. Now I'm even more convinced that the answer to the early creature problems is to run Knight of Glory.
4x Rancor
4x Ethereal Armor
4x Bonds of Faith
3x Detention Sphere
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Abundant Growth
3x Feeling of Dread
Creatures (14)
4x Knight of Glory
4x Invisible Stalker
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Sigarda, Host of Herons
4x Temple Garden
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Forest
3x Island
Other possibilities that haven't been discussed (to the best of my knowledge)
Curiosity - if you're running an unblockable hexproof you might as well draw some cards right?
Divine Favor - +1/+3, then gain 3 life in addition to the creature buff.
Ghostly Touch - Could help in maintaining tempo. Tap or untap upon attack.
Spectral Flight - For those who worry about flying. +2/+2
Triumph of Ferocity - Another card drawing avenue.
Curiosity and Triumph of Ferocity - let's discuss.
The cantrips help but a pure card drawing engine is also of great interest. How often does your opponent have a creature that has more power than an Invisible Stalker or a Knight of Glory would have if you have any two enchantments on it?
Invis plus Ethereal plus Rancor = 5 power
Knight plus Bonds plus Rancor = 6 power
Invis plus Ethereal plus Bonds = 5 power
That's for Triumph of Ferocity. Curiosity has a different condition but it's easy to fulfill with an Invisible Stalker. Unfortunately that might be the only time when it's easy to fulfill.
I would like to hear opinions on this issue.
It depends on your ends I think. Some of us are leaning tempo-ish, some mid-range and I personally have been playing a control build (while trying to discuss the tempo build)
I tried the Azorius Charm but it didn't help me. I could see it helping other versions of this.
Ive been busy with family stuff but im gonna start grinding this archetype a lot when I get back. I'll try and summarize all the discussion points in one place too for any newcomers. A lot of cards have been mentioned multiple times and what's good will depend on how the meta develops more than anything