The purpose of this thread is to condense discussion regarding the two variants of UWR, Flash and Traditional Midrange. While the core of the decks are very similar, the functionality could not be more contrasting. Unlike the primer, this topic is here to discuss the differences between each deck such as pros and cons, rather than provide general information for an overview of the archetype.
So what variant do you prefer and why?
What are the pros and cons to each variant?
What are some things you consider when deciding which variant to use?
The Compendium goes over the differences between the two.
Midrange is commonly known as the traditional build which arose in November 2012 and generally plays a much more proactive tempo game featuring cards like Geist of Saint Traft and Thundermaw.
Flash primarily plays on a Flash game plan of playing on your opponents turn and generally lacks cards like Geist of Saint Traft and Thundermaw Hellkite and usually includes Sphinx's Revelation to go big.
I'm in love with the UWR flash playstyle because it gets to play nearly perfect magic and punishes misplays exceptionally well. Unfortunately this also means that you need to be on top of your game because it's just as easy to punt a match.
Well, I've been playing UWR Flash (with Augur, Resto, Snapcaster, and either Niv-Mizzet or Aurelia as top end) the last few weeks competitively locally, and it seems like the new R/G aggro decks with Boros Reckoner, Thundermaw, and Silverheart are making the meta difficult for UWR Flash. I'm starting to feel like I need to run the Reckoner again, and I've been debating running a few Thundermaw SB to help deal with the R/G decks. You can only slow them down for so long and you need decent draws to do so. The Naya lists packing the same creatures plus Loxodon and Resto are also very difficult to beat if they don't overextend.
After going 4-0 for a few weeks, last night I ended up 2-2, losing 2x to the R/G aggro deck mentioned above.
Midrange all day everyday. I have recently added Clone and Zealous Conscripts to the mainboard and have had tremendous victories. I swapped Aurelia for 2 Angel of Serenity as well. Still rocking 26 lands. Clone/ZConscripts change so many games around its not even funny.
I play both Flash and Midrange. I prefer Midrange to Flash for many different reasons. Mainly because it is capable of swinging tempo while proactively pushing through the game plan of getting your opponent to 0 and I can start working on that game plan earlier than I can with Flash. Flash I feel like I am always just trying to set up my hand for a 1-2 punch play that just takes longer than I would like.
I have also put it aside because there are more value creatures for aggro decks packing green mana. Flash trades 1 for 1 too much and not at a rate which I feel is effective.
The deck is a bit different now that DGM is out. I feel Giest of Saint Traft is one of those creatures that can be in the main, but it changes a lot. For example, if I was running GoST in the MB, I would be packing Thundermaw Hellkite over Aurelia, the Warleader. I would also be packing a full set of Unsummon and a couple Dragonshift to throw him in the air for 4 damage. I would probably also run Warleader's Helix over Ral Zarek more than Likely.
Gideon, Champion of Justice was a card I ran for a good amount of time. He is really solid, but I lack enough bodies now with GoST out as well as a Thundermaw, so it is harder to throw creatures in the way. If I were to try and get him back in the main, I would probably throw in some Rolling Temblor to help make sure he does not get mowed down in combat after playing him.
I like the idea of using Rapid Hybridization on your own Gideon. But all it is is cute.
Overall, Dragon's Maze did not seem to give much to us as UWR players. At least not in quantity. We did manage to get a couple very high quality cards that I am pleased with and make me feel like the deck (UWR Midrange) still has a place in the meta.
This is my take on UWR midrange, and right now i feel its a bit superior to the flash variant.
Some the the card chocies may seem odd at first, and im sure you have already noticed a few key guys are missing, so let me explain:
The list is a classic midrange, i play every powerful creature the colors allow in the curve.
T3 geist or reckoner, followed by T4 resto, T5 Thundermaw, and T6 aurelia.
If a deck can survive something like that, please show it to me, and i will gladly play it.
Sphinxs is in there since the card is stupidly good, and i see no reason to cut it, Midrange decks dont always need CA, but its not a bad thing to have per se.
As you may notice, i run 0 unssumon, feeling of dread, ral zarek, and snapcaster, and the reason is pretty simple: all of those are great cards, IN TEMPO.
I dont wanna win trough speed but power, so i dont care if a geist is blocked or not, i will just drop another geist, or a bigger and more powerful guy in his place.
Also, i run very few instants, of which only 3 are counters. Snapcaster lacks a bit in the offensive department, so i cant depend on him like i do in flash variants.
Sure, sometimes i miss flashbacking a burn for more range, or a sphinxs rev, but those 3 or 4 slots let me play 4 geists AND reckoners, so thats that.
The rewind is a bit akward, i must admit, so im thinking if switching it to a blasphemous act.
The helixes have been doing a decent job up to now, specially in the aggro MUs, where burning a dude and winning 4 life tends to be better than resto as the 4 drop.
The SB seems pretty standard for me, turn/burn is an awesome card to answer tusks, obzedat, AoS, or just about any guy with a problematic ability/Toughness.
The UWR classic lists are tempo lists. The reason your list is sub par to flash is because you are on a reactive UWR list which is just inferior to both flash and Midrange. I am only saying it straight because I have tried to run in the middle and it just doesn't work. You are either throwing down aggressive creatures and using disruption to set them back and get in, or you are responding to your opponents plays and capitalizing where you can. You are trying to do both things which is not very coherent if I may say so.
Dropping Geist and losing Geist with the locic that you will just drop another is terrible. It shows a lack of fundamental understanding for the UWR midrange strategy and what makes it potent.
Im not saying i dont care if i lose a geist, maybe i worded that wrong. I dont mind as much as other lists losing him, since he isnt my beast card, and isnt the only guy that can get dmg in.
I do try to protect him whener i can, i just dont build the deck around him, he is not my only win-con, and i dont play UWR as tempo, as i think tempo is not all that vell positioned at the moment in the meta.
Also, i dont see how i am being "reactive" since i have almost no counters, little burn that works more as removal for my guys to get in than a real control element, and im tapped almost every turn to play a threat.
Are heavily reactionary cards which essentially pay out in certain relivant game states. Azorius Charm and Searing Spears see play in lists because they are more applicable to a diverse state in which you could use them for a multitude of things.
Cards like Sphinx's Revelation, Warleader's Helix and Think Twice require you to have a substantial opportunity to do them and you don't even run Unsummon which is key to opening up those scenarios or getting you to a point where you can begin to create those openings.
3 Revelations is a lot. I ran 2 for a while and even that was a lot. How you find time and mana to reliable start casting Think Twice I probably will never know and 4 Spears is an insanely high number for a card that is probably your weakest option for removal right now.
How do you account for turn 3 losses against Naya Blitz? When I say a loss on turn 3 I don't simply mean you are dead right there, but I am implying that if t hey land 7 damage on board with a multitude of ways to do it on turn 2... what do you do? Reckoner is not going to save you. Azorius Charm cost 2 as well as Spear and Reckoner may act as a 2 for 1 but only after you actually took the damage.
If you branch out away from blitz there are also a ton of RDW variants that use a similar shell and similar damage structure. They may not be as fast and you may get more mileage out of your removal but it is only marginal in those matches anyways.
1 Mana removal like Unsummon and Pillar of Flame are incredibly crucial to not just forfeiting those hyper aggressive matches because a simple Unsummon or Pillar of Flame turn 1 can save you an incredible amount of life in the long run which is where you want to be. If your plan is to be on the play so you can Azorius Charm or Spear a turn 1 3/3 Champion you are still down a removal spell that cost more than the threat you needed to remove and you are taking 4. That is if you are on the play and if you are not 7 damage turn 2 is a real thing. It happens and it happens a lot against Blitz and common for turn 3 against any RDW variant. Even if you make it to Thundermaw Range you wont have an easy time trying to race them with out some sort of disruption to swing tempo.
Your meta may not have decks like RDW and Blitz, but the real world has those decks in a competitive meta and you need those tempo swings to beat them. Tempo is arguably the best positioned strategy right now with Cavern of Souls falling to a low in terms of play frequency and you are even seeing Voice of Resurgence start it's own tempo based decks which will eat cards like Sphinx's Revelations and Think Twice alive.
I always feel like I am being a jerk when I rant about something, but the truth is that your list is going to struggle in those matches in a large open event when you run into any pilot who is capable of actually playing with some level of aggro skills.
Mmm i see, some of your points make sense.
I have also tought that 3 sphinxs were kinda useless, but just left them there, probably out in inertia.
The think twices i keept since i think that with a top curve of 6 24 lands is too low, so i use them to keep my land drops considering i dont want to go to 25, but perhaps that too was a mistake.
Ip to now i havent lost many games to blitz, maybe because the player was not good, granted, but its one of the match ups i worry less about.
Since i my game plan is to overpower the opponent, im more concerned with things that can either stop me or can overpower me. The first one is really rare right now with esper losing popularity, and the second one would be something like naya midrange (who has a similar suite of creatures, but can ramp them with farseek or manadorks) or reanimator, who can go even bigger than me.
I cant say i love Card disadventage effects like unsummon, but i do think that a sphinxs and a think twice can be cut without problems, so i will try them or pillars.
The think twices i keept since i think that with a top curve of 6 24 lands is too low, so i use them to keep my land drops considering i dont want to go to 25, but perhaps that too was a mistake.
Drop 3 Think Twice put in 25th land, make your land drops and have 2 free spots for more important cards is the math behind it. It is really up to you, but if you are running it to hit your land drops, you might as well just up it one land to meet the standard and give yourself 2 better spells. 6 mana is not hard to get to in the time frame the deck gives you if you are able to stabilize and in the case of Aurelia, if also gives you that extra time to put more bodies down.
Ip to now i havent lost many games to blitz, maybe because the player was not good, granted, but its one of the match ups i worry less about.
Turn 2 7 damage is just a reality of the match up and it will blow you out. Will it happen all the time? Of course not, but it will happen enough.
"This first one is pretty simple. Among other things, it takes less work to be effective playing threats than it is playing answers; for answers to work, you need at the very least to be playing the correct answers. In 2013 more than in most previous years, you also need to have a fast enough answer. On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't have an answer, he not just might but will eventually bite it to even the lowliest threat." - Mike Flores from The Annotated 27 Ways To Beat Players Who Are Better Than You
I repeat this because he is very accurate of that statement. Which is a reason I am a huge advocate of Unsummon right now. it is cheap which makes it fast and it catches any creature outside of Hexproof or Protection... and Thragtusk, which really is not that relevant in a deck with Reckoner and Aurelia anyways.
By playing 2 mana removal and no 1 mana removal, you are letting your opponent close in on you and your removal in turn becomes less effective because it has to be used on less relevant threats which ultimately leads to a bad play.
While Mike is talking about how playing threats as opposed to answers is a strong way to beat your opponent, you can also take from that statement a very valuable lesson on removal: be able to catch what you can when you need to catch it and do it as efficiently as possible. Give yourself the options to make the right call when you need to make the call.
Since i my game plan is to overpower the opponent, im more concerned with things that can either stop me or can overpower me. The first one is really rare right now with esper losing popularity, and the second one would be something like naya midrange (who has a similar suite of creatures, but can ramp them with farseek or manadorks) or reanimator, who can go even bigger than me.
You are on a way too two dimensional system there. If you are only looking at decks that stop or oever power you as opposed to the cards and how those cards are played, you will find yourself falling into the trap Mike stated earlier, where you end up just biting the bullet and using something you should be using differently because you are in a situation where you need to use it.
The purpose of tempo disruption in UWR Midrange is not to answer those threats that can stop you or over power you. It functions like a bully pushing a kid who is trying to stand back up, down again. By catching them early and turning that time, mana and effort invested and making them do it again is an incredibly powerful way to force a game where you want it to go when you want it to go the way you need it to go. Tempo decks are the Lewis and Clark of board control.
I cant say i love Card disadventage effects like unsummon, but i do think that a sphinxs and a think twice can be cut without problems, so i will try them or pillars.
Not everything blue based has to focus on card advantage and disadvantage, even more so in a tempo deck. If you are a blitz player and you are holding a typical turn 2 7 damage hand and you lead out with Champion of the Parish with BTE and Lightning Mauler in hand for turn 2 and I Unsummon your Champion, you just shocked yourself and you have to recast him turn 2 or else get in for 4 and only a 2 life swing instead of a straight 7. If you are on the play you are in even better shape because you turn 1 land, pass turn 2 Unsummon, turn 3 snap Unsummon again. You are now down 1 card with a creature on board and in a monumental spot because you have survived to turn 4 where you can being to start making serious headway in transitioning from a controlling pace to a stable aggressive pace.
I tried the flash version for the first time in a loooong time at fnm last night. I think it went well. Khamal is right though, you cant be half assed about it, play Flash or Midrange, trying to mix the two makes the deck suck. Before my biggest problem was Thragtusk decks like Bant Control, because when I was on Tempo cards like Unsummon etc were just atrocious. I was seeing a resurgence in Bant Control at our meta so I changed to Flash because I needed the countermagic to stop Thragtusk especially, Prime Speaker Zegana or their own Restoration Angels from resolving. So, for now until things change again, I will stick to Flash just for the counterspells. I miss playing Geist, but Boros Reckoner is fun too. Plus, its good to be back playing Sphinx's Revelations again.
I tried the flash version for the first time in a loooong time at fnm last night. I think it went well. Khamal is right though, you cant be half assed about it, play Flash or Midrange, trying to mix the two makes the deck suck. Before my biggest problem was Thragtusk decks like Bant Control, because when I was on Tempo cards like Unsummon etc were just atrocious. I was seeing a resurgence in Bant Control at our meta so I changed to Flash because I needed the countermagic to stop Thragtusk especially, Prime Speaker Zegana or their own Restoration Angels from resolving. So, for now until things change again, I will stick to Flash just for the counterspells. I miss playing Geist, but Boros Reckoner is fun too. Plus, its good to be back playing Sphinx's Revelations again.
UWR Midrange originally ran 7-9 counters main...
I ran 7 last night and it was just fine.
It is not counters that separate UWR Midrange from UWR Flash, they both are very capable of running the same counter suite and still functioning completely different than each other.
Turn 2 7 damage is just a reality of the match up and it will blow you out. Will it happen all the time? Of course not, but it will happen enough.
"This first one is pretty simple. Among other things, it takes less work to be effective playing threats than it is playing answers; for answers to work, you need at the very least to be playing the correct answers. In 2013 more than in most previous years, you also need to have a fast enough answer. On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't have an answer, he not just might but will eventually bite it to even the lowliest threat." - Mike Flores from The Annotated 27 Ways To Beat Players Who Are Better Than You
I repeat this because he is very accurate of that statement. Which is a reason I am a huge advocate of Unsummon right now. it is cheap which makes it fast and it catches any creature outside of Hexproof or Protection... and Thragtusk, which really is not that relevant in a deck with Reckoner and Aurelia anyways.
By playing 2 mana removal and no 1 mana removal, you are letting your opponent close in on you and your removal in turn becomes less effective because it has to be used on less relevant threats which ultimately leads to a bad play.
While Mike is talking about how playing threats as opposed to answers is a strong way to beat your opponent, you can also take from that statement a very valuable lesson on removal: be able to catch what you can when you need to catch it and do it as efficiently as possible. Give yourself the options to make the right call when you need to make the call.
Against naya blitz and some other really fast aggro decks unsummon is so good. But kamahl do you think it has a place in the Mainboard. Because i've never used it and I'm wondering where you use it MB or SB?
Against naya blitz and some other really fast aggro decks unsummon is so good. But kamahl do you think it has a place in the Mainboard. Because i've never used it and I'm wondering where you use it MB or SB?
Unsummon? I run it mainboard. It is not just good against aggro, it is good against any deck barring insane ETB effects and LTB effects. Midrange has Reckoners and Aurelia though, so it really does not care about Unsummoning Thrag.
The card is criminally underplayed. For a single mana, you are now out of a body, the mana used to cast it and the time you used to cast it. Regardless of what creature it was. One mana... which means not only is it going to be available to play cheaply and flash back cheaply, it stops those super aggressive turns from happening.
I am at 3 MB, I run a 3/2 split of Unsummon/Pillar of Flame and to be honest, I would be happy taking it to a 4/1 split with 2 pillars in the board.
Need help with this variant/decklist. I feel it is almost perfect and fine tuned at this point and time, few sideboard questions and also wondering worth playing Ral Zarek 2 of or if Terminus fits in better to benefit from thought scour.
I keep Boros Charm in my board. It is there to either protect GoST against control or midrange. It also pushes extra damage through when I don't need to protect GoST as much. I would keep it out of the MB. It's interaction with Reckoner and A Charm is nice, but that does not happen very often and I have been running them in the same 75 since GTC.
I would drop a Revelations. It really is not as good in a more midrange deck which emphasizes on tempo.
Terminus and Thought Scour can probably go as well. If you want the sweepers MB, run Verdict, it is just a better card for us if you are willing to lose your board critters. Thought Scour is just not as good without Pike and Pike is pretty poor when you have something like Aurelia that functionally serves the same purpose.
That will open up some slots for Ral if you really want him. I would probably use the remaining slots for another Unsummon or two and maybe a couple Essence Scatter. Those cards are good against both aggro and midrange, allowing you to get to a point where you can start maintaining a stable board presence.
Just a single Slayer's Stronghold? This card is insane with Boros Reckoner so I always pack 2 and I have a hard time grasping the idea of just 1. I like to see it often as Thragtusk decks have a hard time with Reckoner and squeaking in for 5 vigilance with a FS option is pretty big.
As far as your SB goes, I ditched the mill package for control/reanimator a while ago and I don't miss it. Playing the tempo game with Reckoner and GoST is much stronger and it frees open those slots to help tackle various other matches as well as random brew matches.
Staticaster seems like a 3 of, once again, if you want Ral i suppose you will get more value out of it. But it is less useful against aggro that it use to be. There are more X/2 creatures and Unsummon is a huge rollback. Enough that Staticaster just is not really all that valuable anymore. Out of the board with Ral, she could be, but idk. Shooting your own Reckoners with cards like BA in your deck seems moot. BA alone should put them in Aurelia range if you have a Reckoner out.
AoS is hard to cast. I have never liked her in UWR Midrange. She clears a board, but so do sweepers. Slower decks struggle against GoST and tempo disruption, I would just stick with that game plan and focus on your aggro match a bit more from there.
Your mana seems fine. If you end up cutting Scours, I would jump back to 25 land though.
I keep Boros Charm in my board. It is there to either protect GoST against control or midrange. It also pushes extra damage through when I don't need to protect GoST as much. I would keep it out of the MB. It's interaction with Reckoner and A Charm is nice, but that does not happen very often and I have been running them in the same 75 since GTC.
I would drop a Revelations. It really is not as good in a more midrange deck which emphasizes on tempo.
Terminus and Thought Scour can probably go as well. If you want the sweepers MB, run Verdict, it is just a better card for us if you are willing to lose your board critters. Thought Scour is just not as good without Pike and Pike is pretty poor when you have something like Aurelia that functionally serves the same purpose.
That will open up some slots for Ral if you really want him. I would probably use the remaining slots for another Unsummon or two and maybe a couple Essence Scatter. Those cards are good against both aggro and midrange, allowing you to get to a point where you can start maintaining a stable board presence.
Just a single Slayer's Stronghold? This card is insane with Boros Reckoner so I always pack 2 and I have a hard time grasping the idea of just 1. I like to see it often as Thragtusk decks have a hard time with Reckoner and squeaking in for 5 vigilance with a FS option is pretty big.
As far as your SB goes, I ditched the mill package for control/reanimator a while ago and I don't miss it. Playing the tempo game with Reckoner and GoST is much stronger and it frees open those slots to help tackle various other matches as well as random brew matches.
Staticaster seems like a 3 of, once again, if you want Ral i suppose you will get more value out of it. But it is less useful against aggro that it use to be. There are more X/2 creatures and Unsummon is a huge rollback. Enough that Staticaster just is not really all that valuable anymore. Out of the board with Ral, she could be, but idk. Shooting your own Reckoners with cards like BA in your deck seems moot. BA alone should put them in Aurelia range if you have a Reckoner out.
AoS is hard to cast. I have never liked her in UWR Midrange. She clears a board, but so do sweepers. Slower decks struggle against GoST and tempo disruption, I would just stick with that game plan and focus on your aggro match a bit more from there.
Your mana seems fine. If you end up cutting Scours, I would jump back to 25 land though.
Yeah atm I only have 1 Ral so I will see where that could take me probably just wait for a 2nd one to float around, I kept 1 slayer's because of the fact I am at 24 lands but maybe in cutting scours, I could go back up to 25 with 2 Slayer's. I was thinking of just running supreme verdicts but a friend said if I liked scour's to run them with terminus for more efficiency. But If I do run Supreme verdicts I feel like it would warrant keeping Boros Charms more? I really do like keeping 2 in the main over the 3 in the side.
Unfortunately I no longer own geists/like geists so anything with him doesn't help me too much which is why I chose for the purify and Psychic Spiral route for those matchups while still having a boros charm and thundermaw for more reach. Recommend any other cards to get under reanimator and control that aren't geist?
I also like the idea of running clones if Angel of Serenity starts proving to give me a rough time. Any opinion on that? or you think that's more of a UWR Flash sideboard card?
But I am 100% on board with unsummon and the potential to go up to 3, everyone at my store hates on it but I see the potential and how underplayed it is.
Hey guys, been looking for a Geist shell and I'm really liking him in this bigger midrange package. I perfer Geist over Reckoner for the more proactive gameplan.
Any thoughts? Tempted to play around with Ral and I am undecided on Aurelia, I feel like the deck may really benefit from a couple of think twice and
also thinking about 2 AEtherling and 1 Cavern in the SB for control
Yeah atm I only have 1 Ral so I will see where that could take me probably just wait for a 2nd one to float around, I kept 1 slayer's because of the fact I am at 24 lands but maybe in cutting scours, I could go back up to 25 with 2 Slayer's. I was thinking of just running supreme verdicts but a friend said if I liked scour's to run them with terminus for more efficiency. But If I do run Supreme verdicts I feel like it would warrant keeping Boros Charms more? I really do like keeping 2 in the main over the 3 in the side.
Unfortunately I no longer own geists/like geists so anything with him doesn't help me too much which is why I chose for the purify and Psychic Spiral route for those matchups while still having a boros charm and thundermaw for more reach. Recommend any other cards to get under reanimator and control that aren't geist?
I also like the idea of running clones if Angel of Serenity starts proving to give me a rough time. Any opinion on that? or you think that's more of a UWR Flash sideboard card?
But I am 100% on board with unsummon and the potential to go up to 3, everyone at my store hates on it but I see the potential and how underplayed it is.
Boros Charm main is just iffy to me. But it has applications regardless, I just use mine for SB utility. That is the beauty of the flexible cards like charms.
If you don't have GoST, clone may be what you are looking for in the Junk Match. I would almost just run Dragonshift as a pseudo Gost for testing purposes. It functionally turns your other creature bodies into a big evasive beater for a turn then goes online late game for big beats if you manage an opening for it.
Hey guys, been looking for a Geist shell and I'm really liking him in this bigger midrange package. I perfer Geist over Reckoner for the more proactive gameplan.
Any thoughts? Tempted to play around with Ral and I am undecided on Aurelia, I feel like the deck may really benefit from a couple of think twice and
also thinking about 2 AEtherling and 1 Cavern in the SB for control
Reckoner MB is still a pretty proactive game plan, you just have to utilize first strike and your removal differently in order to protect yourself rather than your beater. Reckoner is good at getting through be size no key wants to block him, and he gets really dumb with Stronghold.
Aurelia in a Gost deck is not how I would roll. She pairs better with Reckoner where Thundermaw pairs better with Gost.
As for think twice, draw is nice, but just use azorius charm when you need a draw. Stuffing your midrange Gost deck with cards like think twice is just way too iffy and reactive for a Gost tempo deck.
Boros Charm main is just iffy to me. But it has applications regardless, I just use mine for SB utility. That is the beauty of the flexible cards like charms.
If you don't have GoST, clone may be what you are looking for in the Junk Match. I would almost just run Dragonshift as a pseudo Gost for testing purposes. It functionally turns your other creature bodies into a big evasive beater for a turn then goes online late game for big beats if you manage an opening for it.
Reckoner MB is still a pretty proactive game plan, you just have to utilize first strike and your removal differently in order to protect yourself rather than your beater. Reckoner is good at getting through be size no key wants to block him, and he gets really dumb with Stronghold.
Aurelia in a Gost deck is not how I would roll. She pairs better with Reckoner where Thundermaw pairs better with Gost.
As for think twice, draw is nice, but just use azorius charm when you need a draw. Stuffing your midrange Gost deck with cards like think twice is just way too iffy and reactive for a Gost tempo deck.
Thanks for the response man! I am new to the archetype so I really appreciate it.
I see what you mean with Reckoner MD as it makes your g1 vs aggro much better; how/when do you board in GoST from the SB? Also how have your experiences been with 7 counters? 7 seems like a ton to me
I moved up to 25 lands by adding a 2nd Slayer's , I dropped Assemble and Zealous Main for 1 Thundermaw and added in the Ral Zarek. Dropped from 3 pillars main to 2 while going up to 3 unsummon. I went with 3 syncopate, 1 Dissipate and decided to run 1 Rewind main deck.
I listened on the sideboard and went with 3 staticcasters while getting more on board with negate and essence scatter for the respective matchups. I also went with 2 Clones for my reanimator matchup as well as some midrange thragtusk/angel shenagians.
Went 4 - 0 with this list today at a Tuesday Night Standard.
Match 1 Jund Midrange
Match 2 UWR Flash
Match 3 Bant Wolfrun Control
Match 4 Junk Reanimator
Overall a good showing, still contemplating running 1 Cavern of Souls.
We all agreed to use DGM Cards but I can get more of a feel for other DGM cards on Friday when it's more streamlined due to the official release.
Glad you did well and seem to like the changes. There is a report thread for tournaments as linked above. It is a sticy thread in the section as well.
Why Cavern of Souls? I contemplated it for UWR Midrange when UWR Flash became big. I ran 1 mainboard and 1 sideboard for the match. Ultimately is just was not really effective.
Thanks for the response man! I am new to the archetype so I really appreciate it.
I see what you mean with Reckoner MD as it makes your g1 vs aggro much better; how/when do you board in GoST from the SB? Also how have your experiences been with 7 counters? 7 seems like a ton to me
I SB Geist in against decks like Jund, Reanimator, Mirror, UWR Flash, Esper. basically anything that is not running Resto + Value (Huntmaster, Thragtusk etc) In the case of Junk Reanimator, they lack removal for him as well as snapcaster flashes and they generally are trying to do their own thing. Sticking him early is more effective than in the Bant Match because when he lands, he pushes them off plan A which means they are now playing fair and if they are playing fair they just can't win because it creates a lot of dead space between their cards.
Unlike Bant and Naya, Junk Reanimator has less cards that intersect (interact) with Geist of Saint Traft and the counter suite cuts out what little they can actually throw in the way of him.
Staying on topic of UWR Flash vs UWR Midrange, Geist is strong and UWR Flash does not utilize him enough, which opens them up to matches like Junk Rites where they can counter things and flash things in, but Cavern has inevitability on Flash. Craterhoof is just going to happen and it will generally close the game out against UWR Flash. UWR Midrange does not suffer from that as much because it takes them off plan A using beaters like GoST and Reckoner and shuts down plan B using it's counter magic. Junk Rites plan B of just hardcasting everything is slow in a world of GoST, Reckoner and Aurelia.
So what variant do you prefer and why?
What are the pros and cons to each variant?
What are some things you consider when deciding which variant to use?
Midrange is commonly known as the traditional build which arose in November 2012 and generally plays a much more proactive tempo game featuring cards like Geist of Saint Traft and Thundermaw.
Flash primarily plays on a Flash game plan of playing on your opponents turn and generally lacks cards like Geist of Saint Traft and Thundermaw Hellkite and usually includes Sphinx's Revelation to go big.
After going 4-0 for a few weeks, last night I ended up 2-2, losing 2x to the R/G aggro deck mentioned above.
I have also put it aside because there are more value creatures for aggro decks packing green mana. Flash trades 1 for 1 too much and not at a rate which I feel is effective.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Restoration Angel
Planeswalker
3 Ral Zarek
Legendary Creatures
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
Removal
2 Turn // Burn
3 Pillar of Flame
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Azorius Charm
3 Unsummon
2 Dissipate
2 Essence Scatter
3 Syncopate
Lands
2 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Boros Charm
2 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Purify the Grave
2 Curse of Echoes
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Zealous Conscripts
The deck is a bit different now that DGM is out. I feel Giest of Saint Traft is one of those creatures that can be in the main, but it changes a lot. For example, if I was running GoST in the MB, I would be packing Thundermaw Hellkite over Aurelia, the Warleader. I would also be packing a full set of Unsummon and a couple Dragonshift to throw him in the air for 4 damage. I would probably also run Warleader's Helix over Ral Zarek more than Likely.
Gideon, Champion of Justice was a card I ran for a good amount of time. He is really solid, but I lack enough bodies now with GoST out as well as a Thundermaw, so it is harder to throw creatures in the way. If I were to try and get him back in the main, I would probably throw in some Rolling Temblor to help make sure he does not get mowed down in combat after playing him.
I like the idea of using Rapid Hybridization on your own Gideon. But all it is is cute.
Overall, Dragon's Maze did not seem to give much to us as UWR players. At least not in quantity. We did manage to get a couple very high quality cards that I am pleased with and make me feel like the deck (UWR Midrange) still has a place in the meta.
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Clifftop Retreat
3 Sacred Foundry
Instants
3 Think Twice
4 Azorius Charm
4 Searing Spear
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Harvest Pyre
2 Render Silent
1 Rewind
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Restoration Angel
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Terminus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Counterflux
2 Clone
2 Council of the Absolute
3 Turn // Burn
1 Detention Sphere
This is my take on UWR midrange, and right now i feel its a bit superior to the flash variant.
Some the the card chocies may seem odd at first, and im sure you have already noticed a few key guys are missing, so let me explain:
The list is a classic midrange, i play every powerful creature the colors allow in the curve.
T3 geist or reckoner, followed by T4 resto, T5 Thundermaw, and T6 aurelia.
If a deck can survive something like that, please show it to me, and i will gladly play it.
Sphinxs is in there since the card is stupidly good, and i see no reason to cut it, Midrange decks dont always need CA, but its not a bad thing to have per se.
As you may notice, i run 0 unssumon, feeling of dread, ral zarek, and snapcaster, and the reason is pretty simple: all of those are great cards, IN TEMPO.
I dont wanna win trough speed but power, so i dont care if a geist is blocked or not, i will just drop another geist, or a bigger and more powerful guy in his place.
Also, i run very few instants, of which only 3 are counters. Snapcaster lacks a bit in the offensive department, so i cant depend on him like i do in flash variants.
Sure, sometimes i miss flashbacking a burn for more range, or a sphinxs rev, but those 3 or 4 slots let me play 4 geists AND reckoners, so thats that.
The rewind is a bit akward, i must admit, so im thinking if switching it to a blasphemous act.
The helixes have been doing a decent job up to now, specially in the aggro MUs, where burning a dude and winning 4 life tends to be better than resto as the 4 drop.
The SB seems pretty standard for me, turn/burn is an awesome card to answer tusks, obzedat, AoS, or just about any guy with a problematic ability/Toughness.
Dropping Geist and losing Geist with the locic that you will just drop another is terrible. It shows a lack of fundamental understanding for the UWR midrange strategy and what makes it potent.
I do try to protect him whener i can, i just dont build the deck around him, he is not my only win-con, and i dont play UWR as tempo, as i think tempo is not all that vell positioned at the moment in the meta.
Also, i dont see how i am being "reactive" since i have almost no counters, little burn that works more as removal for my guys to get in than a real control element, and im tapped almost every turn to play a threat.
Maybe im wrong somewhere, could you elaborate?
4 Azorius Charm
4 Searing Spear
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Warleader's Helix
Are heavily reactionary cards which essentially pay out in certain relivant game states. Azorius Charm and Searing Spears see play in lists because they are more applicable to a diverse state in which you could use them for a multitude of things.
Cards like Sphinx's Revelation, Warleader's Helix and Think Twice require you to have a substantial opportunity to do them and you don't even run Unsummon which is key to opening up those scenarios or getting you to a point where you can begin to create those openings.
3 Revelations is a lot. I ran 2 for a while and even that was a lot. How you find time and mana to reliable start casting Think Twice I probably will never know and 4 Spears is an insanely high number for a card that is probably your weakest option for removal right now.
How do you account for turn 3 losses against Naya Blitz? When I say a loss on turn 3 I don't simply mean you are dead right there, but I am implying that if t hey land 7 damage on board with a multitude of ways to do it on turn 2... what do you do? Reckoner is not going to save you. Azorius Charm cost 2 as well as Spear and Reckoner may act as a 2 for 1 but only after you actually took the damage.
If you branch out away from blitz there are also a ton of RDW variants that use a similar shell and similar damage structure. They may not be as fast and you may get more mileage out of your removal but it is only marginal in those matches anyways.
1 Mana removal like Unsummon and Pillar of Flame are incredibly crucial to not just forfeiting those hyper aggressive matches because a simple Unsummon or Pillar of Flame turn 1 can save you an incredible amount of life in the long run which is where you want to be. If your plan is to be on the play so you can Azorius Charm or Spear a turn 1 3/3 Champion you are still down a removal spell that cost more than the threat you needed to remove and you are taking 4. That is if you are on the play and if you are not 7 damage turn 2 is a real thing. It happens and it happens a lot against Blitz and common for turn 3 against any RDW variant. Even if you make it to Thundermaw Range you wont have an easy time trying to race them with out some sort of disruption to swing tempo.
Your meta may not have decks like RDW and Blitz, but the real world has those decks in a competitive meta and you need those tempo swings to beat them. Tempo is arguably the best positioned strategy right now with Cavern of Souls falling to a low in terms of play frequency and you are even seeing Voice of Resurgence start it's own tempo based decks which will eat cards like Sphinx's Revelations and Think Twice alive.
I always feel like I am being a jerk when I rant about something, but the truth is that your list is going to struggle in those matches in a large open event when you run into any pilot who is capable of actually playing with some level of aggro skills.
I have also tought that 3 sphinxs were kinda useless, but just left them there, probably out in inertia.
The think twices i keept since i think that with a top curve of 6 24 lands is too low, so i use them to keep my land drops considering i dont want to go to 25, but perhaps that too was a mistake.
Ip to now i havent lost many games to blitz, maybe because the player was not good, granted, but its one of the match ups i worry less about.
Since i my game plan is to overpower the opponent, im more concerned with things that can either stop me or can overpower me. The first one is really rare right now with esper losing popularity, and the second one would be something like naya midrange (who has a similar suite of creatures, but can ramp them with farseek or manadorks) or reanimator, who can go even bigger than me.
I cant say i love Card disadventage effects like unsummon, but i do think that a sphinxs and a think twice can be cut without problems, so i will try them or pillars.
Drop 3 Think Twice put in 25th land, make your land drops and have 2 free spots for more important cards is the math behind it. It is really up to you, but if you are running it to hit your land drops, you might as well just up it one land to meet the standard and give yourself 2 better spells. 6 mana is not hard to get to in the time frame the deck gives you if you are able to stabilize and in the case of Aurelia, if also gives you that extra time to put more bodies down.
Turn 2 7 damage is just a reality of the match up and it will blow you out. Will it happen all the time? Of course not, but it will happen enough.
"This first one is pretty simple. Among other things, it takes less work to be effective playing threats than it is playing answers; for answers to work, you need at the very least to be playing the correct answers. In 2013 more than in most previous years, you also need to have a fast enough answer. On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't have an answer, he not just might but will eventually bite it to even the lowliest threat." - Mike Flores from The Annotated 27 Ways To Beat Players Who Are Better Than You
I repeat this because he is very accurate of that statement. Which is a reason I am a huge advocate of Unsummon right now. it is cheap which makes it fast and it catches any creature outside of Hexproof or Protection... and Thragtusk, which really is not that relevant in a deck with Reckoner and Aurelia anyways.
By playing 2 mana removal and no 1 mana removal, you are letting your opponent close in on you and your removal in turn becomes less effective because it has to be used on less relevant threats which ultimately leads to a bad play.
While Mike is talking about how playing threats as opposed to answers is a strong way to beat your opponent, you can also take from that statement a very valuable lesson on removal: be able to catch what you can when you need to catch it and do it as efficiently as possible. Give yourself the options to make the right call when you need to make the call.
You are on a way too two dimensional system there. If you are only looking at decks that stop or oever power you as opposed to the cards and how those cards are played, you will find yourself falling into the trap Mike stated earlier, where you end up just biting the bullet and using something you should be using differently because you are in a situation where you need to use it.
The purpose of tempo disruption in UWR Midrange is not to answer those threats that can stop you or over power you. It functions like a bully pushing a kid who is trying to stand back up, down again. By catching them early and turning that time, mana and effort invested and making them do it again is an incredibly powerful way to force a game where you want it to go when you want it to go the way you need it to go. Tempo decks are the Lewis and Clark of board control.
Not everything blue based has to focus on card advantage and disadvantage, even more so in a tempo deck. If you are a blitz player and you are holding a typical turn 2 7 damage hand and you lead out with Champion of the Parish with BTE and Lightning Mauler in hand for turn 2 and I Unsummon your Champion, you just shocked yourself and you have to recast him turn 2 or else get in for 4 and only a 2 life swing instead of a straight 7. If you are on the play you are in even better shape because you turn 1 land, pass turn 2 Unsummon, turn 3 snap Unsummon again. You are now down 1 card with a creature on board and in a monumental spot because you have survived to turn 4 where you can being to start making serious headway in transitioning from a controlling pace to a stable aggressive pace.
UWR Midrange originally ran 7-9 counters main...
I ran 7 last night and it was just fine.
It is not counters that separate UWR Midrange from UWR Flash, they both are very capable of running the same counter suite and still functioning completely different than each other.
Against naya blitz and some other really fast aggro decks unsummon is so good. But kamahl do you think it has a place in the Mainboard. Because i've never used it and I'm wondering where you use it MB or SB?
Signature thanks to gabgabdevo!
top 8's
Gatecrash gameday 4-0 boros aggro
dragon's maze gameday 3-1 bant hexproof
Theros gameday 5-2 mono green devotion
decks
standard-
RGcolossal gruul RG
modern-
BRGLiving endBRG
RUGScapeshiftRUG
RGTronRG
Legacy-
Dredge
Unsummon? I run it mainboard. It is not just good against aggro, it is good against any deck barring insane ETB effects and LTB effects. Midrange has Reckoners and Aurelia though, so it really does not care about Unsummoning Thrag.
The card is criminally underplayed. For a single mana, you are now out of a body, the mana used to cast it and the time you used to cast it. Regardless of what creature it was. One mana... which means not only is it going to be available to play cheaply and flash back cheaply, it stops those super aggressive turns from happening.
I am at 3 MB, I run a 3/2 split of Unsummon/Pillar of Flame and to be honest, I would be happy taking it to a 4/1 split with 2 pillars in the board.
I keep Boros Charm in my board. It is there to either protect GoST against control or midrange. It also pushes extra damage through when I don't need to protect GoST as much. I would keep it out of the MB. It's interaction with Reckoner and A Charm is nice, but that does not happen very often and I have been running them in the same 75 since GTC.
I would drop a Revelations. It really is not as good in a more midrange deck which emphasizes on tempo.
Terminus and Thought Scour can probably go as well. If you want the sweepers MB, run Verdict, it is just a better card for us if you are willing to lose your board critters. Thought Scour is just not as good without Pike and Pike is pretty poor when you have something like Aurelia that functionally serves the same purpose.
That will open up some slots for Ral if you really want him. I would probably use the remaining slots for another Unsummon or two and maybe a couple Essence Scatter. Those cards are good against both aggro and midrange, allowing you to get to a point where you can start maintaining a stable board presence.
Just a single Slayer's Stronghold? This card is insane with Boros Reckoner so I always pack 2 and I have a hard time grasping the idea of just 1. I like to see it often as Thragtusk decks have a hard time with Reckoner and squeaking in for 5 vigilance with a FS option is pretty big.
As far as your SB goes, I ditched the mill package for control/reanimator a while ago and I don't miss it. Playing the tempo game with Reckoner and GoST is much stronger and it frees open those slots to help tackle various other matches as well as random brew matches.
Staticaster seems like a 3 of, once again, if you want Ral i suppose you will get more value out of it. But it is less useful against aggro that it use to be. There are more X/2 creatures and Unsummon is a huge rollback. Enough that Staticaster just is not really all that valuable anymore. Out of the board with Ral, she could be, but idk. Shooting your own Reckoners with cards like BA in your deck seems moot. BA alone should put them in Aurelia range if you have a Reckoner out.
AoS is hard to cast. I have never liked her in UWR Midrange. She clears a board, but so do sweepers. Slower decks struggle against GoST and tempo disruption, I would just stick with that game plan and focus on your aggro match a bit more from there.
Your mana seems fine. If you end up cutting Scours, I would jump back to 25 land though.
Yeah atm I only have 1 Ral so I will see where that could take me probably just wait for a 2nd one to float around, I kept 1 slayer's because of the fact I am at 24 lands but maybe in cutting scours, I could go back up to 25 with 2 Slayer's. I was thinking of just running supreme verdicts but a friend said if I liked scour's to run them with terminus for more efficiency. But If I do run Supreme verdicts I feel like it would warrant keeping Boros Charms more? I really do like keeping 2 in the main over the 3 in the side.
Unfortunately I no longer own geists/like geists so anything with him doesn't help me too much which is why I chose for the purify and Psychic Spiral route for those matchups while still having a boros charm and thundermaw for more reach. Recommend any other cards to get under reanimator and control that aren't geist?
I also like the idea of running clones if Angel of Serenity starts proving to give me a rough time. Any opinion on that? or you think that's more of a UWR Flash sideboard card?
But I am 100% on board with unsummon and the potential to go up to 3, everyone at my store hates on it but I see the potential and how underplayed it is.
Any thoughts? Tempted to play around with Ral and I am undecided on Aurelia, I feel like the deck may really benefit from a couple of think twice and
also thinking about 2 AEtherling and 1 Cavern in the SB for control
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Restoration Angel
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
Removal
3 Turn // Burn
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Azorius Charm
2 Boros Charm
3 Unsummon
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Dissipate
1 Essence Scatter
2 Syncopate
Lands
2 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Island
2 Rest in Peace
2 Negate
1 Dispel
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Izzet Staticaster
1 Boros Charm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pillar of Flame
Boros Charm main is just iffy to me. But it has applications regardless, I just use mine for SB utility. That is the beauty of the flexible cards like charms.
If you don't have GoST, clone may be what you are looking for in the Junk Match. I would almost just run Dragonshift as a pseudo Gost for testing purposes. It functionally turns your other creature bodies into a big evasive beater for a turn then goes online late game for big beats if you manage an opening for it.
Reckoner MB is still a pretty proactive game plan, you just have to utilize first strike and your removal differently in order to protect yourself rather than your beater. Reckoner is good at getting through be size no key wants to block him, and he gets really dumb with Stronghold.
Aurelia in a Gost deck is not how I would roll. She pairs better with Reckoner where Thundermaw pairs better with Gost.
As for think twice, draw is nice, but just use azorius charm when you need a draw. Stuffing your midrange Gost deck with cards like think twice is just way too iffy and reactive for a Gost tempo deck.
Thanks for the response man! I am new to the archetype so I really appreciate it.
I see what you mean with Reckoner MD as it makes your g1 vs aggro much better; how/when do you board in GoST from the SB? Also how have your experiences been with 7 counters? 7 seems like a ton to me
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Steam Vents
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Slayers' Stronghold
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Restoration Angel
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Ral Zarek
3 Azorius Charm
2 Searing Spear
1 Dissipate
3 Syncopate
1 Rewind
2 Boros Charm
3 Unsummon
2 Turn // Burn
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Izzet Staticaster
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Boros Charm
1 Assemble The Legion
2 Purify the Grave
1 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Pillar of Flame
I moved up to 25 lands by adding a 2nd Slayer's , I dropped Assemble and Zealous Main for 1 Thundermaw and added in the Ral Zarek. Dropped from 3 pillars main to 2 while going up to 3 unsummon. I went with 3 syncopate, 1 Dissipate and decided to run 1 Rewind main deck.
I listened on the sideboard and went with 3 staticcasters while getting more on board with negate and essence scatter for the respective matchups. I also went with 2 Clones for my reanimator matchup as well as some midrange thragtusk/angel shenagians.
Went 4 - 0 with this list today at a Tuesday Night Standard.
Match 1 Jund Midrange
Match 2 UWR Flash
Match 3 Bant Wolfrun Control
Match 4 Junk Reanimator
Overall a good showing, still contemplating running 1 Cavern of Souls.
We all agreed to use DGM Cards but I can get more of a feel for other DGM cards on Friday when it's more streamlined due to the official release.
Glad you did well and seem to like the changes. There is a report thread for tournaments as linked above. It is a sticy thread in the section as well.
Why Cavern of Souls? I contemplated it for UWR Midrange when UWR Flash became big. I ran 1 mainboard and 1 sideboard for the match. Ultimately is just was not really effective.
I SB Geist in against decks like Jund, Reanimator, Mirror, UWR Flash, Esper. basically anything that is not running Resto + Value (Huntmaster, Thragtusk etc) In the case of Junk Reanimator, they lack removal for him as well as snapcaster flashes and they generally are trying to do their own thing. Sticking him early is more effective than in the Bant Match because when he lands, he pushes them off plan A which means they are now playing fair and if they are playing fair they just can't win because it creates a lot of dead space between their cards.
Unlike Bant and Naya, Junk Reanimator has less cards that intersect (interact) with Geist of Saint Traft and the counter suite cuts out what little they can actually throw in the way of him.
Staying on topic of UWR Flash vs UWR Midrange, Geist is strong and UWR Flash does not utilize him enough, which opens them up to matches like Junk Rites where they can counter things and flash things in, but Cavern has inevitability on Flash. Craterhoof is just going to happen and it will generally close the game out against UWR Flash. UWR Midrange does not suffer from that as much because it takes them off plan A using beaters like GoST and Reckoner and shuts down plan B using it's counter magic. Junk Rites plan B of just hardcasting everything is slow in a world of GoST, Reckoner and Aurelia.